Mini 612 Akatsuki: The End

[L]

Megatron and andersonw, would you please post your Top suspects for loyalists and rebels? It would be rather helpful. I do want everyone to do it. Claus will do one soon as he said he would, and Battousai is claiming Mastermind of Sin and MafiaSSK.

Then maybe the game won't be so slow.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Tom replaces Ghostwriter.

[Megatron]

Obviously my #1 is Battousai, he got called out by MoS for continued setup-related arguments, then lies through his teeth saying that MoS is using pre-game posts as justification for going at him. Lynch all liars.

#2 MafiaSSK, I don't see how anything he's doing right now makes any damn sense.

[L]

Mastermind of Sin did unvote because when battousai quoted, he quoted me quoting a pre-game question he asked. When he quoted me, it looked like he re-asked the same question.

Who do you think is a loyalist?

[Battousai]

Ya Megatron, I didn't lie. Either you missed the whole thing I wrote or you haven't been reading the thread that much.

The reason I find MoS the scummiest is because he was grasping at things that wasn't there at the person who seemed suspicious to a majority. If you actually read the entire post I wrote, there is that question, but immediately under it is the ANSWER. To me, if he didn't notice that part then he has already made up his mind on whether I was scum or not and was looking for reasons. Townies find reasons and then decide whether people are scum.

MafiaSSK: How many times have you actually used the strategy then, because your last post I get that you made the strategy AFTER you were lurking in another game, but that doesn't tell me how it works sometimes and sometimes it doesn't?

[MafiaSSK]

MafiaSSK: How many times have you actually used the strategy then, because your last post I get that you made the strategy AFTER you were lurking in another game, but that doesn't tell me how it works sometimes and sometimes it doesn't?

Well it was in the game when I made it. So this is my first all-game approach to using the strategy. However, it can work or it can not work based on the people who are playing the Mafia Game. For instance, I've heard that MeMe and Yosarian2 don't use the typical two ways of noticing lurkers. This means that my strategy woould not work. However, if they were just typical players then it would work.

[Megatron]

Hmm. I guess I fail at deciphering badly done quote tags... I must have missed that part, and glazed over some of the rest of that page... time for a reread.

unvote/unass/etc...

[Tom]

Hello everyone. I replaced GhostWriter, and I am a townie. I find myself in a sticky situation because I have been told upon replacement that I have the kill and that the kill-time is almost up – I only have one or two posts before I lose it. This means that if I do not use the kill then I will lose it, it will go to a random person, and the kill will then be concealed.

This would be bad. A stealth kill would give the town less information than an open kill. The only benefit I see to a stealth kill would be that, if the town-aligned killer is wrong, he would not be persecuted against because of my mistake. But someone else may be assumed to have made the kill, and they may be persecuted in his stead. That would most likely not be in the favor of the town.

The only reasons that I debate letting the kill slip into stealth mode, and go to a random person, are two reasons. Reason number one is that it could go to a townie whose partner is still alive. I am at a disadvantage here because I was in a masonry with one of the confirmed townies that is now dead. I am assuming, because everyone in Akatsuki in Naruto has a partner, that I am not the only one in a masonry. The kill going to a townie with a partner could be an advantage because that person would have one less confirmed suspect than I do, but I am not going to take the chance that the kill goes to the scum. The second reason for letting the kill slip into stealth mode would be that if I make a mistake and attack the wrong person, I could easily be attacked back like Pain was attacked back for killing someone. If I end up killing a townie (Akatsuki loyalist), and then I am killed (Akatsuki loyalist), then the game will most likely end in a loss.

Weighing the options, however, I decided to take the kill. This is because a stealth kill could fall into the hands of an Akatsuki rebel (scum) and then we would have another death of a townie. We would also not have the same amount of information as we will if an open kill is attempted.

The three main people I thought about killing are MoS, Battousai, and SSK. There are multiple reasons for this, but I have chosen SSK.

SSK: There have been many lurkers in this game, SSK included, but he is the anomaly. He initially stated multiple times that he was paying attention and that he was going to post his comments and cases soon. But then after he did not post those comments and was called out for it by Battousai, he stated that he has no comments to make. I believe that everyone in the game has opinions or comments that could be made – especially if everyone is in a masonry like I was with one of the now dead. SSK’s playstyle has been purposefully lurky, but he still comes in and comments, which I find very peculiar. He is under fire right now, and I believe from the moment I type this, he has the most votes.

My main fear right now is to let the kill slip into stealthy scum hands. So I am going to,

Vote: MafiaSSK

Ass: MafiaSSK

ATTACK: MafiaSSK

Quite a ninja-esque entrance, huh?

[Albert B. Rampage]

Tom appears before MafiaSSK while he sleeps and shreds him to pieces.

MafiaSSK, Tobi, Rebel Leader, was assassinated during the first meeting.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Kill reset.

Extract attempts reset.

Votes reset.

Its now 7AM.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ya Megatron, I didn't lie. Either you missed the whole thing I wrote or you haven't been reading the thread that much.

The reason I find MoS the scummiest is because he was grasping at things that wasn't there at the person who seemed suspicious to a majority. If you actually read the entire post I wrote, there is that question, but immediately under it is the ANSWER. To me, if he didn't notice that part then he has already made up his mind on whether I was scum or not and was looking for reasons. Townies find reasons and then decide whether people are scum.

How come you don't suspect Megatron for doing the exact same thing I did? It's an honest mistake, and you need to accept that your post was not clear at all, instead of calling us scum for misinterpreting it.

[andersonw]

Megatron and andersonw, would you please post your Top suspects for loyalists and rebels? It would be rather helpful. I do want everyone to do it. Claus will do one soon as he said he would, and Battousai is claiming Mastermind of Sin and MafiaSSK.

Then maybe the game won't be so slow.

Okay:
btw, if you are The Jester, then you should be experienced enough not to ask about win conditions. Could I ask why you did that?

I'll post up reasons tomorrow, since I'm really tired right now, but right now, my list is

Townish
Battousai (yep, not kidding here)
GhostWriter/Tom

In the middle
L

Slightly scummish
MoS

A bit more scummish than MoS
Megatron

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'd like Tom to explain why myself and Battousai were he next choices for assassination after MafiaSSK.

[Tom]

I'd like Tom to explain why myself and Battousai were he next choices for assassination after MafiaSSK.

I absolutely will. I'm doing my third read through right now with the new information -- MafiaSSK as scum -- and I will post all of my opinions, claims, arguments, and accusations sometime tonight or afternoon tomorrow (in real life, ;p).

[Claus]

Hello Tom! And great entrance!

L, sorry for making you wait. I'm starting my re-read now, I should be back in 1 hour or so. After that, I might dissapear for a while more. Check the signature.

[Tom]

This post is a bit unruly, but nonetheless is my analysis for the moment.

Problems

1) A vote or accusation against Battousai due to his questioning of the game mechanics or setup is not legitimate.
2) L needs to immediately explain why he asked the type of questions in #222 if he is an experienced alt (The Jester).
3) MafiaSSK was incredibly inactive, and voting for him is an obvious pro-town move and therefore carries little pro-town weight.
4) Is there 1 scum left or 2?

The worst thing about my killing of MafiaSSK is that due to his incredible level of inactivity, voting for him was an obvious pro-town move. Therefore, that move carries little pro-town weight in my opinion. Also, he did not have many, if any, established connections with anyone. Although it was a success, we did not learn too much from it. (Unless someone can point something out!)

Battousai was originally on my scumdar because a lot of the town was on his back, mostly because of the setup questions, but I know believe that those questions are illegitimate and that Battousai is pro-town.

Ninja (Order =/= Scumdar)

n) Claus
n) Battousai
n) Mastermind of Sin (now MoS)
n) Megatron
n) L
n) andersonw

n) Claus.
Claus was a very interesting read from the get-go, because he is currently an obvious neutral. His goal was to kill three people, and that's what he did, and though some of his posts were obvious manipulations of the group to increase his chances of success, he seems to be playing sort of pro-town. Or at least he is trying to be. @Claus: I would really like to hear who you think is the scum. I know you're busy, but please get back to me on this. =)

n) Battousai.
First off, let me remind you, a vote or accusation against Battousai due to his questioning of the game mechanics or setup is not legitimate. Those now alive who had the hardest time not jumping all over Battousai for this are MoS, Megatron, and L. He simply was open to interpretation of the phrase "the Akatsuki, the followers, and the rebels." The followers could be assumed as either an appositive for Akatsuki or a separate entity from it, because the grammar is confusing. The Akatsuki could involve both the followers and the rebels, or it could involve the followers, or it could involve neither. The truth is that we are all Akatsuki, and that the usual "town" are the followers, the "mafia" are the rebels, and there seems to be at least one independent in Claus. Battousai suffered from a lot of harangue from the town because of this, but after all of my read throughs, he does not seem scummy because of this confusion at all. In fact, anyone who legitimately still believes that Battousai is scum should ask themselves why, and if it is because of this setup argument, then you should reasses the situation. I see that both Megatron and MoS have admitted to currently understanding the misinterpretation, though MoS seemed very determined to make Battousai suffer for it (#172, one liner accusation).

n) MoS.
Was not very active for a while, and was extremely vehement against Battousai concerning the setup discussion. Post #172 by MoS seems to be especially dumb. I know that by "slip" MoS means Battousai's misunderstanding or inquiry into the setup, but MoS implied that Battousai was a third party or a scum party because of this slip. I see a very shallow correlation. Starting around #174, MoS had a scuffle with SleepyPanda (now SP) over Claus's kill of Ashmite, defending Claus's actions. That is neither respectable nor deplorable in my view, because although Ashmite flipped town and its sad that he died, what Claus did was arguably necessary to establish order. In post #206, MoS voted and assassination-voted Battousai STILL about set-up problems, only to unvote and unassassination-vote after hearing the explanation. Overall sort of scummy in my opinion.

n) Megatron.
It is hard to get a good read on Megatron. Although he was one of those harrassing Battousai for the setup discussion, he also thought Claus was a townie -- meaning that he bought that Claus killed Pain to keep the law. Also, Megatron pushed to see SSK's "information" that would lead me to want to kill SSK pretty badly.

n) L.
Right now, you really need to answer andersonw's question about your weird, almost game-breaking questions. =/ After inactivity, in post #121 you voted Farside for the same reasons everyone else was. in #165, acknowledged that there is really no use for the lynch besides if we have a consensus on a kill and the kill hasn't gone off, but also questions Battousai about the setup discussion. Defended Claus's second kill in #181, asks the weird questions in #222, and thinks Megatron is loyalist in #226.

n) andersonw.
In #125, defends farside against the mob forming, though he acknowledged that he expected his defense of farside to do nothing. I don't know if that is pro-town or anti-town. In #166 he was anti Claus (understandably, Claus is an indy) but wishy washy on Battousai. In 232 he was pro Battousai, anti SSK's lurking without info, and pro Claus lynch until he understands the validity in Claus's roleclaim.

Thats where I am on everyone right now.

My scumdar would be

1. MoS
2-4. andersonw, Megatron, L
5. Battousai
6-7. Claus, Tom

2-4 and 6-7 on the same level mean that they are very close to each other for different reasons.

Also, fairly important question here, is there 1 scum left or 2? I don't have a clue.

[Megatron]

Hello everyone. I replaced GhostWriter, and I am a townie. I find myself in a sticky situation because I have been told upon replacement that I have the kill and that the kill-time is almost up – I only have one or two posts before I lose it.

This means that if I do not use the kill then I will lose it, it will go to a random person, and the kill will then be concealed.

Liar. (emphasis mine)

Ass: Tom

New Rule

:

If a week goes by with the daykill in the Akatsuki loyalists' possession, without being used or taken by the rebel faction, the kills will become undisclosed. That means you will PM to me your target and no one will ever know it was you who got away with murder.

(mod edit: I forgot that not everyone will kill at the first chance like me)

If you were town you wouldn't lose it, you'd be able to use it secretly. ABR already clarified this. You had to use it because you're scum.

[Tom]

You quoted the rule in post #66, which states:

New Rule

:

If a week goes by with the daykill in the Akatsuki loyalists' possession, without being used or taken by the rebel faction, the kills will become undisclosed. That means you will PM to me your target and no one will ever know it was you who got away with murder.

(mod edit: I forgot that not everyone will kill at the first chance like me)

but LATER, in post #70, SleepyPanda clarifies:

So the loyalists are the pro town and the rebel are the scum. So this means scum will have to use the killing power during the meeting? If so, then that means we should lynch anyone who kills during the meeting.

Nono, I think what he's saying is if the Akatsuki does not use the assassination skill, then it will become silent. Like right now, to use it, we have to announce it inside the thread. However, if we don't use it, ANYONE is able to PM the mod the command instead, so we wouldn't know who used the command.

You are correct! -Mod

And ABR answered "correct." SleepyPanda said that if nobody uses the kill for 7 days, then ANYONE (notice the caps?) is able to PM the mod the command instead, so we wouldn't know who used the command. This means that all the scum would have to do is use it before I did and I would LOSE IT TO THEM.

Also, in post #112, ABR clarifies again in my favor:

No. In 2 days, if the kill is not used, it will become hidden if the conditions set in the new rule are met. Anyone will be able to kill with impunity.

Notice that last part. ANYONE would be able to kill with impunity. And after one kill, that period ends and a new kill is issued. So I would lose it. So no, I'm not a liar.

Please unvote me for assassination.

[Tom]

Also, I sincerely hope that you read my entire post(s) and thought about them instead of just trying to find somewhere where I'm a "liar" by technicality... even though technically you're the liar for calling me a liar. =/

[Albert B. Rampage]

Notice that last part. ANYONE would be able to kill with impunity. And after one kill, that period ends and a new kill is issued. So I would lose it.

This is correct.

[Claus]

Sorry for the delay, here is the re-read. I'll probably post very little after this until monday.

========

Discussion topics

- Why Batt is scummy because of system discussion.

Tom, I disagree with you that Batt is not scummy because of system discussion. Let me explain you why:

The problem with system discussion is not that you say you are town, or you are scum, or you make slips, or anything like that. I agree with you that MOS pushing for Batt's slip was bad, and the people who followed that bandwagon are strange as well.

HOWEVER, the problem with setup discussion is that it is a great excuse not to scum hunt. And that is what Battousai has been doing: he has used his questions about the setup, his suppositions, and his discussions when people ask him about it, to avoid thinking and commenting on the players. His only comments and attacks are OMGUS, which are contentless.

So I disagree with you that Batt's setup discussion is not scummy, although I agree that attacking him for the "slip" is bad.

- Why controlling, limiting the kill is a good idea:

I wanted to say this for a long time, but the game was ongoing. Now that it has finished I can put it here. Check Mr. Stoofers' recently finished "Dynamite Stick Mafia". In that game, like in this one, everyone had day kills.

Early in the game a number of players came up with a system to control these daykills, and to punish those who did not follow the daykill controls (Adel, PEG, Quagmire). The scum, on the other hand, spend their time hunting any lurkers to make the town waste their kill on them quickly.

In fact, the kill control method stabilished by the town quickly set the above triad as pro-town looking, and guided the game towards a town victory.

Notice how SSK was against controlling unchecked kills (157)

This is why I think that those who were trying to set up a kill control system in the beginning of the game, and who were not against my revenge kill on Ashmite, are more likely to be pro-town.

========
The List: (From bad to good)

Naughty List

Battousai:

Taking every possible oportunity not to contribute to the game. Buddying up to Sleepy to speedlynch me after revenge kill.

Spotlights:
Bad Points
- During most of D1, limits himself to discussing the setup. When questioned about it, waffles (57)
- Avoids discussing the farside lynch, goes back to system discussion (109) and again (116)
- Shuffles his feet around when accused of not scumhunting, instead of trying to scumhunt. (143)
- Pushes shamelessly against the revenge kill (162)
- Justification for his scummy, non scumhunting play (178), followed by an OMGUS:
- Buddying up to Sleepy panda, attacking me for inverted reasons (184) (see my 185)

Question: I'm actually waiting for any input on the players from you.

Andersonw:

I'm a bit surprised with my re-read of him. Re-reading the thread now, it seems to me that he was always taking "the safe road", by not saying anything that might get him into trouble. I don't like his position during the Farside lynch (hey, I think she might be town... but only two days...) (88,101,125), and I don't like how he tried to get me killed after the revenge kill/claim (166,232)- seems like scum trying to scoop an opportunity lynch.

Question: Why are you putting Megatron now as most scummy?

Megatron:

He seems looking for easy lynches to join. Was early to join the farside lynch (3). Then he is ambivalent on my revenge lynch(8). Then pushes for the "lies" attack on Batt (10). Funny that he putts SSK just below batt during the lies attack, with the reason "doesn't make sense". (his post 12).

Now that tom replaced, he jumped the gun on him. I think I can hear scum saying "oh shit!" that the lurker they were going to lynch was replaced

Neutral List

L

- On one hand, L is greatly contributing to the discussion, and is leading the town, which I find to be a towntell. On the bad side, he adopted a weird position on the Farside lynch (attacking both sides of the lynch), and his attacks against SSK seems the most likely to be a bus. I'm undecided on the "he is a veteran, so shouldn't have asked for the win conditions". That was a stupid action, not a scummy one.

Spotlights
Good Points:
- Pushed for the kill control system (95)
- Makes questions for various players during D2 (134)
- More good questioning on (145)
- Good questioning, upholds the voting system (193)
- Leading the town.
Bad Points:
- Voted for both DGB AND Farside (both sides of the fence) (121)
- Explained the vote on DGB and the vote on Farside, but not the
contradiction on voting one against the other at the same time (181)
- Tries to tie GW and MafiaSSK together, when GW was a pure lurker (226)
- Attacks SSK heavily on (234), but then shows him a light by the end of the tunnel on (239).

MOS

- On one hand, he is the first to suggest and push for a "no-kill" policy, which would greatly benefit the town (turn the game into nightless, with possible power roles). It was so good to the town that the mod had to add a rule to prevent it (see also Dynamite Stick mafia above). Defends the revenge kill which, while admittedly done on my self-interests, was a pro-town move to control the day-vig spiral.

- On the other hand, starts and pushes the "lie" attack on Battousai, and is not contributing that much.

Spotlight
Good points
- First to suggest and push the "Lynch only" plan (before rulechange) (59)(62)
- When rules change, suggest the "assassination" system.
- 174 is a good posting
Bad point
- Don't like 172 - I don't like attacks based on slips. Pushes this attack for a good while, when proven wrong backs down.

Question:
MOS, you own the game a good re-read and your position on each player. What does it bother you on Tom's scum list?

Nice List

TOM:

I found GW to be just a lurker. He had a few good posts:
4- rivalling bandwagons during the random phase generate discussion. (although he missed SSK's unvote)
6- pressuring battousai

Tom entrance was good. In fact, the SSK kill is actually a null tell. I'm pretty sure the scum by then was pretty gun-ho on having SSK bussed. BUT his questionings and comments later looked pretty much like someone joining a game and trying to scumhunt. (even though I disagree with some of his points)

I noticed that he claimed Mason. Tom, maybe you should rolename claim? If this game is as heavily based on the anime as it seems to be, your claim would probably clear you as a mason, no?


Next: a helpful vote count.

[Claus]

Assassination Request Count:

Tom 1 - Megatron

[Mastermind of Sin]

n) Battousai.
First off, let me remind you, a vote or accusation against Battousai due to his questioning of the game mechanics or setup is not legitimate. Those now alive who had the hardest time not jumping all over Battousai for this are MoS, Megatron, and L. He simply was open to interpretation of the phrase "the Akatsuki, the followers, and the rebels." The followers could be assumed as either an appositive for Akatsuki or a separate entity from it, because the grammar is confusing. The Akatsuki could involve both the followers and the rebels, or it could involve the followers, or it could involve neither. The truth is that we are all Akatsuki, and that the usual "town" are the followers, the "mafia" are the rebels, and there seems to be at least one independent in Claus. Battousai suffered from a lot of harangue from the town because of this, but after all of my read throughs, he does not seem scummy because of this confusion at all. In fact, anyone who legitimately still believes that Battousai is scum should ask themselves why, and if it is because of this setup argument, then you should reasses the situation. I see that both Megatron and MoS have admitted to currently understanding the misinterpretation, though MoS seemed very determined to make Battousai suffer for it (#172, one liner accusation).

This is a misleading post. You're saying that I seemed "very determined", and you're quoting the very first post of my attack on Battousai. Your turn of phrase makes it sound like post 172 was part of a continuing attack on him, like he had posted some sort of defense and I'd stubbornly ignored it. That post was the first thing I'd said about suspecting Battousai, so I can hardly see how you can interpret it as you have.

n) MoS.
Was not very active for a while, and was extremely vehement against Battousai concerning the setup discussion. Post #172 by MoS seems to be especially dumb. I know that by "slip" MoS means Battousai's misunderstanding or inquiry into the setup, but MoS implied that Battousai was a third party or a scum party because of this slip. I see a very shallow correlation.

I fail to see what is "dumb" about 172, when I didn't even say anything in that post. I voted him and hadn't fully explained the vote yet, but you call it dumb. That makes no sense whatsoever. By "slip" I meant that I felt he had slipped up, that he had revealed himself as not protown. I feel like it was very obvious to those of us that are protown that the Akatsuki is the town, and the rebels are the scum. For him to ask that question implied to me that he did not have this information, which would make him scum or some third party.

Starting around #174, MoS had a scuffle with SleepyPanda (now SP) over Claus's kill of Ashmite, defending Claus's actions. That is neither respectable nor deplorable in my view, because although Ashmite flipped town and its sad that he died, what Claus did was arguably necessary to establish order. In post #206, MoS voted and assassination-voted Battousai STILL about set-up problems, only to unvote and unassassination-vote after hearing the explanation. Overall sort of scummy in my opinion.

I voted Battousai "STILL"???? What are you trying to pull? He hadn't adequately explained the situation yet, so OF COURSE I'm going to vote him. "only to unvote after hearing the explanation."???? What the hell does that mean? Are you saying that it was unreasonable or scummy of me to unvote once Battousai defended himself appropriately?

[Megatron]

Oh, shit... I'm a total retard.

So basically, if the kill goes 7 days and becomes "undisclosed", the first person to just PM ABR a name to kill gets the kill regardless of who had it before, AND no one knows who did it?

I have no idea why that didn't register. I was assuming that even if time expired, the kill still stayed with the same person who already had it if they were town (he did specifically say if it was in the

loyalists' possession

.)

I guess that makes less sense than I thought it did. Gah. I'm confused now. I really figured I had you pinned down, too... because, well, if I hadn't been wrong about that, think about it - not only had you come in like that, dropped a kill on the scum boss, which makes a perfect bus, but it was .. ah goddammit.

You actually saved someone's ass *and* got the scum leader in the process... well done.

unass

Re-reading. Damn, I feel stupid now.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Question:
MOS, you own the game a good re-read and your position on each player. What does it bother you on Tom's scum list?

I just found it odd that he would have Battousai and myself as his top 2 suspects.