Mini 666 - This Could Be Mafia - MOD ABANDONED

[Vivian Darkblaam]

Oooh! We should see what happens if we reverse-lynch somebody. Quick, everybody anti-wagon!

Negative Vote: Timmy Bot

[Vivian Darkblaam]

lol this is weird and interesting, skitzer I love you.

@Vivian, I dont think that will do anything, and why are you voting for someone named Timmy Bot (not listed)?

Random vote,

Positive Vote: Falcone

Given the flavor of this game, I would not be at all surprised if anti-wagoning a player to -7 votes ressurects them. Ideally, we could bring back a confirmed town role from pregame and force skitzer to slot an extra player in.

I just realized, however, that I voted for the wrong role:

Unvote; Negative Vote: Jimmybot

(It is good to know that votes on any player, real or imaginary, will be counted)

[Vivian Darkblaam]

If he's scum then we vote like crazy to kill him tomorrow.

How will we know?

I still think our best bet for experimentation is voting on a dead NPC. I doubt we could do much damage by doing that, and if nothing happens, we could discuss graduating to human trials.

Additionally, that was not a "softclaim"*, Timeater. That was a full-on nameclaim, and it was also stupid.

*A softclaim being when a player alludes to aspects of their role without making definite statements. ie. "Player X probably won't die tonight" as doctor or "You guys would definitely regret lynching me" as SuperSaint.

[Vivian Darkblaam]

I know what a softclaim is newbiegirl, lol. This game is pretty whacky so I dont care if I dont play conventionally. Voting for a dead NPC is a dumb idea, sorry. Not only will it most likely not doing anything it wont have any real effect on us.

Anyways I dont really care all that much either way, I'm willing to go with the flow.

If you know what a softclaim is, why did you use the term improperly?

What bearing does the potential whackiness of this setup have on whether or not you should claim at the top of Page 2? Are you town yielding the one bit of knowledge you hold over the scum, or are you just scum trying to take advantage of unconventional surroundings?

If you are confident that anti-wagoning an NPC will not do anything

and

that it won't have any real effect on us, what's the harm in trying?

Are you reading what I'm posting or just looking at my gender symbol and the pretty little butterfly?

[Vivian Darkblaam]

Vivian, whose alt are you?

See: Vivian Darkbloom

@TE: Now, that

is

a place where the wackiness of the setup comes into play. A professional tennis ball runner could be so good at running (away) that he's effectively bulletproof. He could busdrive night actions by swtiching the balls he give to players. He could have learned how to be a hider from dodging vollies. Having a very minor "profession", he could simply be a townie. Or the name of the role could have no bearing at all on what the role actually does.

So no, we really can't tell what your role is from the name. Though I will note that you intended your name claim to serve as a full-claim (for whatever reason) and ask you emphatically not to give a genuine claim (for the time being at least).

As for your last statement, that is what "newbiegirl" seemed to imply.

[Vivian Darkblaam]

Also, what do you guys mean by alt?

Alternative account. Smurf.

Says the guy with a Pooky bear in his account.

Agreeing here that Time became an even easier target when he asked to be replaced. Grimmy's reasoning in particular was horrendous. How long does he really think it will take to get a replacement? Do we really have to "wait" for his replacement at this stage? Aren't there other things to discuss? (Negative-self-vote is pretty skeezy too)

Positive Vote: Grimmy

until he can explain his vote for Time in a way that doesn't make me retch.

[Vivian Darkblaam]

Also, what do you guys mean by alt?

Alternative account. Smurf.

Says the guy with a Pooky bear in his account.

What are you insinuating?

That the inclusion of an icon associated with PookyTheMagicalBear in your avatar could indicate that you are, in fact, his alt. Just as the several allusions in my own profile indicate whose I am.

@Grimmy: After a certain point, votes on a wagon do not represent a "meh" stance, and L-2 is well past that point. Your vote screams "I would like to lynch Timeater" (as did the post in which you made the vote). When faced with a dearth of places to put your vote (if you're one of those people who really must have their vote somewhere), the response is not to compromise and rationalize; it's to scumhunt, and I'm not seeing a whole lot of that.

[Vivian Darkblaam]

@TonyMontana: No friggn' clue.

Shrug there's a difference in saying 'asking for a replacement is a scum tell' and saying 'I need a replacement' out of the blue while actively participating in other games.

I personally didn't like how he ran because he got his same stuff tossed in his face, has nothing to do with being scum. He threw insults and crap and when someone threw it back he left. Eh, whatever.

I'll keep my vote there and see what the replacement brings.

Again with the poor reasoning on a vote. You're voting him for a personal reason that has nothing to do with him being scum? Since when was it OK to lynch somebody because you didn't like them?

What I don't understand is why everybody is leaning on these crap reasons when there were several legit reasons to drop a vote on Timeater (his completely unprovoked claim for one). Y'all know this wouldn't have happened if he had just sent a PM to the mod and we'd all seen a "Timeater has requested to be replaced" message and nothing else.

I'm just waiting for the next mod-post to see what becomes of all these FOSes.

[Vivian Darkblaam]

Ok, so is Iron Man going to post or is total silence part of his role?

If he's just a dirty lurker, could we have a replacement? (hopefully one of equal or greater awesomeness to Erg0, but I realize that would be difficult)

[Vivian Darkblaam]

*Makes post about replacing Iron Man*

--4 minutes--

*Iron Man is replaced*

Now

that's

service.

[Vivian Darkblaam]

I'm wondering how the voting affects things if it only takes three negative votes to prevent a majority from being possible, even if the rest of the town is voting for someone. Presumably there's some balancing factor here, or a three man scum team could effectively force a standstill on day 1 rather than let their buddy be lynched.

That's a good point, but a scum team that does so not only exposes itself to any and all manner of nighttime mischief, it would take the concerted effort of all three scum to protect

one

of their number. If the town is fast enough to move the wagon to one of the undefended defenders before the scum can, the lynch will still go through. (Regardless, there's a pretty good possibility the deadlocked scum would end up just getting deadline lynched)

[Vivian Darkblaam]

We need to lynch Ergo. I find his wagon full of information.

Positive Vote: Ergo

Because of his predecessor or...?

Predecesor. Timeater asked for a replacement but he kept posting in the thread, like someone that really wanted to stay. I assume he asked for a replacement when things were against him because you can see that he was having fun when he asked for a negative lynch.
Also, many people jumped against or with him.

You're not going to seriously suggest that Timeater's replacement request and subsequent lack of replacementesque behavior alone are reason for a cold lynch without even giving Erg0 a chance to read the damn game. Also, the fact that his wagon was polarizing is not a legitimate reason to lynch. Yes, we could protentially pick up valuable information, but it would only be on three or four pages of play.

Waiting for Grimmy's response once he gets back. I'd still like him to justify his vote in a sane way.

[Vivian Darkblaam]

You're not going to seriously suggest that Timeater's replacement request and subsequent lack of replacementesque behavior alone are reason for a cold lynch without even giving Erg0 a chance to read the damn game. Also, the fact that his wagon was polarizing is not a legitimate reason to lynch. Yes, we could protentially pick up valuable information, but it would only be on three or four pages of play.

Waiting for Grimmy's response once he gets back. I'd still like him to justify his vote in a sane way.

Um...Ergo replaced on page 4. You don't think he read 4 pages by the time he posted? His post sounded like he read the game. Am I for quicklynching Ergo? No. Is your reasoning weak? Yes.

Why so protective? Time's behavior actually reflects just what Popular said. He asked for a replacement, then kept posting, then was SURPRISED when he got replaced. As if he was fine continuing to play now that the attention had been drawn off. Can you explain his behavior otherwise?

If he'd actually been too busy to post, why did he all of sudden start posting after asking for a replacement?

Erg0's post was entirely about the +/- vote mechanic. I figured that if he had read the game beyond Skizter's first couple of posts, he would have said something about, you know, players.

I think it is extremely unlikely that Tim's request for replacement was conceived as a gambit to reduce pressure. First of all, it was genuine; he PM'd the mod and got his ass replaced. I don't think he was expecting to stay in the game as long as he did, and he certainly couldn't have been expecting to not actually be replaced (which he would pretty much have to if you're saying the replacement request was a gambit). Secondly, the request for replacement did absolutley nothing to reduce pressure and was actually what brought him to L-1. You could say that this was just because the gambit backfired, but you certainly couldn't say "he was fine continuing to play now that the attention had been drawn off".

I think I've already spoken for Tim more than is kosher in this post, so I'm not going to assign any motivations as to why he continued to post (that, and I have no frickin' clue), but even with that facet remaining a mystery, it's damn near impossible to put as malicious a spin on this situation are you are trying to.

@Tajo: Why did you ignore the post(s) in which I ripped into Tim that immediately preceeded his replacement request?

[Vivian Darkblaam]

@ptaj
This portion of 26

Additionally, that was not a "softclaim"*, Timeater. That was a full-on nameclaim, and it was also stupid.

*A softclaim being when a player alludes to aspects of their role without making definite statements. ie. "Player X probably won't die tonight" as doctor or "You guys would definitely regret lynching me" as SuperSaint.

30

If you know what a softclaim is, why did you use the term improperly?

What bearing does the potential whackiness of this setup have on whether or not you should claim at the top of Page 2? Are you town yielding the one bit of knowledge you hold over the scum, or are you just scum trying to take advantage of unconventional surroundings?

If you are confident that anti-wagoning an NPC will not do anything

and

that it won't have any real effect on us, what's the harm in trying?

Are you reading what I'm posting or just looking at my gender symbol and the pretty little butterfly?

Not only did I lay into his actual content, some sections of that post were pretty hard on his writing style too.

and also 33

@TE: Now, that is a place where the wackiness of the setup comes into play. A professional tennis ball runner could be so good at running (away) that he's effectively bulletproof. He could busdrive night actions by swtiching the balls he give to players. He could have learned how to be a hider from dodging vollies. Having a very minor "profession", he could simply be a townie. Or the name of the role could have no bearing at all on what the role actually does.

So no, we really can't tell what your role is from the name. Though I will note that you intended your name claim to serve as a full-claim (for whatever reason) and ask you emphatically not to give a genuine claim (for the time being at least).

As for your last statement, that is what "newbiegirl" seemed to imply.

He asked to be replaced in 39. (Think about it, even if he wasn't miserable in this game; if he had to choose one game to replace out of, why not the one where everybody's suddenly started giving him crap?)

[Vivian Darkblaam]

Do you want me to comment on what specially? I already said what I think about Timeater. Why are you defending him that much?

I wanted to point out how narrowly focused your case for "Timeater was enjoying this game" was. When I see craplogic, I point it out, and it's not my fault there's been toiletloads of it surrounding this whole Timeater affair. Didn't you yourself say that this wagon was "full of information"?

[Vivian Darkblaam]

Sorry I've been neglecting this game.

Some words on tajo's information wagon:

I still think Ergo (Timeater) is a very decent lynch for this exact moment of D1.

I'm tempted to show just how angry this statement makes me, but I realize that it might harm my argument, so we'll try to do this rationally.

The biggest thing there is the "exact moment" qualifier that tajo himself has called attention to. It ignores completely the fact that mafia is a remarkably organic and pliable game. Every action and post can have wide-ranging effects. By calling strongly for Erg0's lynch at that "exact moment" he destroys that moment and creates a new one. Could Erg0 be the best lynch (in his mind, at least) in that moment as well? I don't see why not. But will he remain the best candidate as the wagon progresses, as more information comes to light? Does it make any sense to choose one "exact moment" in the game and pledge to act upon it no matter what changes those actions (or completely unrelated actions) might bring?

Because what tajo's moment also ignores is the fact that Mafia is a progressive game. Barring a particularly confusing town-post or particularly well-crafted scum-post, the town always knows more after every post than it did before. What is, therefore, the sense in cutting off our progress at the knees? We should never be looking for the lynch of this "exact moment" but instead prodding and hunting for a better lynch at a future moment. Will there be some situations where one player is so overwhelmingly scummy as to justify lynching without progression? Yes, but that has no bearing on so-called "information lynches". If we do resolve to engage in a lynch simply so we can analyze the bandwagons (as some well matched towns are sometimes forced to do), it would be foolishness to cut off our information so early. The only justifiable "information lynches" occur at deadline.

So no, populartajo, your justification for the Erg0 wagon is not legitimate because you are forced to apply such a ridiculous qualifier to it.

Comment on Grimmy at a later time.

[Vivian Darkblaam]

@Vivian and all here: does my reasoning belong more to a town player or more to a scum player? Yes, no, why?
The Ergo debate is interesting. But you guys dont seem to like the way I play this game.

I definitely get the impression that you're reeling under unexpected scrutiny. You weren't expecting to have to explain what information to take from the Erg0 wagon or why you unvoted and revoted, and you're largely pulling reasons out of your ass. Does that mean the reasons were there originally, but they were scum reasons, or does it mean that you just didn't think to much about what you were doing or if you would be able to explain it (or if it even bore explaining)?

I'm kind of up in the air as to which it is. I certainly do get the impression that the

ideas

you're trying to transmit (the idea of the "exact moment" for example) are real and genuine, but that you're having difficulty expressing them and you don't understand why the town objects. On the other hand, what you

did

was pretty damn anti-town, and that doesn't just fly out the window because there's a strong possibility you were being scummy by accident.

[Vivian Darkblaam]

No time for paragraphs.

-Tony Montana's vote is pretty much bullshit no matter how this plays out.
-fuzzylightning needs to stop citing evidence once-removed. It doesn't help anybody (or change any minds) to say "Well, there was evidence here that convinced me". You have to actually point out what that evidence is and interpert it.
-I really, really, really don't understand what's going on with populartajo. L-4 is no place to claim. Sure, there are some bad agruments (see point 1), but there are also legitimate questions and prods coming from players doing due dilligence. Fight back against the bad cases (chainsaw if you have to), and for God's sake, answer the motherfucking questions. No matter who you are, you have an obligation to your team to do whatever it takes to keep us from lynching you. Get back in the game!

(OK, so maybe just

one

paragraph)

[Vivian Darkblaam]

Sorry I've been away for so long (busy!)

I should have some time to read and post tomorrow.

[Vivian Darkblaam]

Hmmm

I'm going to agree with Falcone and TM here regarding Tajo's claim. Unless the scum were provided the townie win condition in their PMs (a possibility, considering that scum are often given fakeclaims in themed games), the accuracy of his stated condition is difficult to dismiss. That does not, however, mean that Muerrto is scum because he missed it initially (or that TM is town because he confirmed it). I don't think anybody else really took notice of the accuracy of Tajo's claim before TM pointed it out, but that doesn' t mean that in the hypothetical situation where TM is scum and Tajo is town, TM couldn't use is status as the informed minority to back a claim from somebody

he

knows to be town.

@Tajo: What's the flavor of your role?

[Vivian Darkblaam]

@Batt: I'm not sure if I'm seeing your Tajo + Tony argument. I could see Tony confirming Tajo for the purpose of appearing to be town himself, but what's going on here that desrves to be pointed out as "buddying" or connecting?

Also, I doubt that every single townie that has an alternate win condition (if there are multiple town win-conditions or if Tajo guessed wrong) would stay silent. Maybe a few timid players would be afraid that claiming a contrary condition would make them look suspicious, but most would realize that is is always the responsibility of the townie to report things as they truely are and that their word would be more likely to be trusted than Tajo's anyway.

Also, given the nature of this setup, I don't think cohesion is something we should be looking for among roles. Not that any of us can tell with our only reference points being Tajo's claim and our own role (well, except for the scum, but they're not going to admit to anything).

[Vivian Darkblaam]

Sorry for being away so long, my life has been getting steadily busier.

I think we ought to leave the win conditions alone. I don't see anything good coming out of trying map out the differences in win conditions.

I disagree. Win conditions, their wording, and their variation have become a major issue, so I feel that it would be in the town's best interests to get as much information about them out there as is available. How could it hurt?

I'm thinking that it is highly unlikely that tajo straight-up guessed the townie win conditions (or, in a quickly dwindling possibility, one of the win conditons). No one would have felt that the claim was incomplete without a stated win-condition, and just putting one out there on the off-chance that it will be correct is a pretty hefty gambit (same applies to a scumbuddy supporting the claim and calling attention to its win-condition while also not knowing if it is correct). All in all, Falcone is making far too much of an error of sentence structure.

Going way back in time, I'm kind of uncomfortable about Muerrto's case on tajo. A lot of it seems like the pot calling the kettle black. No scumhunting? Try isolating Muerrto's posts and see what he's put out before the tajo case. Appeals to emotion? Half the tajo case was padded with unnecessarily barbed rhetorical questions and free-standing insults. I got the impression from it that tajo has said more stupid things than the average player here but not much else. A bunch of unrelleated snips with captions saying "hey everybody, look how stupid this is!" doesn't prove that anybody's scum.

@Muerrto: I'm not sure if you're scum yet, and it certainly seems like you have things to say on populartajo. Let's try this approach:
-Choose 2-3 ways in which tajo has been scummy (like actually, provably, cohesively scummy). We've already gotten the chronological perpsective and it was disorienting. I'm interested in what you have to say by topic.

@Tony-Montana: You don't take somebody's wording for no reason. If you call his lynch full of information, you're calling his lynch full of information. I really don't buy the way you're trying to back out of this, and to put it another way, consider the following conversation.
Person A: You're dumb.
Person B: No, you're dumb.
Person C: Hey, Person B, did you just call Person A dumb?
Person B: No, I called him ugly.

(Try to guess which person you are)

[Vivian Darkblaam]

It might help scum in the search of powerroles?

How so? Are you proposing that power-roles will have reliably different win-conditions from townies?

Also, this game needs more posting.

[Vivian Darkblaam]

Nab, Im still waiting for Muerrto to suspect another player besides me.
Also I think I am being pretty logical, dunno where you get the "more stupid things than the average player."

I never said you do say more stupid things than the average player (I might have thought it, but that's a different story). I was paraphrasing/strawmanning-for-the-sake-of-convenience Muerrto's argument.

@Muerrto: It's stuff like the above posts that I'm talking about. Even if that post is very scummy (it might be), you haven't explained why, and you have used the very same hyperbole and fallacious appeals you've dinged tajo for.

I don't expect a win condition claim to reveal any halfway competent scum; it is just to confirm or deny the idea that there are multiple town win conditions. Scum will lie if they have a different condition, but any townie with a differing condition is obligated by the weight of almost all Mafia theory on the subject to be truthful in their claim.

[Vivian Darkblaam]

@Muerrto: Yes, actually, I am pretty happy. You posted your arguments so that everybody could notice and correct the misconceptions in them and challenge your views, thus bringing knowledge to everybody. Try doing that more.

@tajo: I think it's a stretch to assume that Meurrto voted you solely for requesting an innappropriate prod. His case may have been after-the-fact, but are you really going to assert that he made the entire thing up on the spot? That there was no precedent to the vote?

Welcome competentpsycho (is CP cool with you?). I try to post fairly often, but I'm a busy person and my playstyle is fairly time-consuming.

[Vivian Darkblaam]

Mm, Tajo, when did you ask Muerrto to make a PBA?

I don't know as if he did, but I did ask him for a succicnt, coherent summary of his case on tajo which I still would like very much to see.

I'm a long day guy(gal), so I can probably keep trucking along for however long it takes us to come to a decision.

Muerrto and tajo need to chill. If they're both townies, all the ad hominem they're throwing around is just perpetuating and entrenching a debate that doesn't have to be happening. They have to realize that we, as the rest of the town, don't feel like wading through personal attacks, and it's much harder to join the conversation and make a decision when all posting is directed to an individual rather than to the town. We really need both of them to make clear, well-thought-out posts so we can decide (at least) what each suspects the other of.

I think the number of people who have come to discount tajo's claim is curious. No, it is not easy to guess the townie win condition. There are several options to choose from, and you often can't just "reverse" the win condition given to another faction in order to find it out. Either tajo is very gutsy and lucky, he was given the town win-condition, or he is telling the truth. To my mind, the third item trumps the others by a margin wide enough to leave tajo be for at least today.

Muerrto's 425 is a bit of an interesting read. First he FOS's Grimmy for

attacking

tajo for the wrong reasons. Then he FOS's CP for

defending

tajo for the wrong reasons. Taken in the way that potentially makes the most sense, this is still saying that Grimmy is bussing (on the third vote of the wagon). Do you have anything to say to this Muerrto?

[Vivian Darkblaam]

Yeah, flavor text calling the rock "now indestructable" points to a lynch immunity. Good to know, but probably not that practical. If somebody was well liked/trusted enough to receive enough negative votes to become immune, it's not like there would be much danger of them being lynched anyway.

[Vivian Darkblaam]

Sup, pickem.

As for the vote, you asked for me to be prodded over a weekend when I'd posted just the day before. Meta me if it makes you feel better but there is NOTHING that ticks me off more than that.

I've abondoned games for that. Thankfully the mod didn't prod me.

Seriously? You should probably chill out a tad (but actually related to this game, I would like to see an example of this claim before I beleive it).

Skeptical regarding the merits of Muerrto's (finally) condensed case, but I'd like to see what tajo comes out with first before I put in my two cents.

[Vivian Darkblaam]

im looking forward to part 2 and hope its more filled out than part one.

See you all next week
Grimmy

the other parts are gonna be the same exact way.

I'm going to say what I want to say, and give post #'s leaving you to go back to those posts, read them and make up your own fucking mind so you don't blindly follow something.

pickem be terse, but I disagree with the reasoning. "Interesting" is good terseposting, but "bad" and "goodposting" are not. Those words are going to encourage the impressionable mind to make itself in your image just as much as reasoning would (except without the liablility)

Also,

two weeks until deadline

in case anybody missed the flavor.

[Vivian Darkblaam]

Deadline shouldn't have been made, a diecision to lynch should have been made by now.

I disagree. Days are the town's turf, and we need as much of them as we can get. Does that mean a scramble lynch at deadline? No. Does that mean taking as much time as possible for discussion before we come to a conclusion? Hellz yes. What have you been doing to build the consensus you want so much anyway?

1. Anger can be townie but it is usually scum that stoop to insulting other's arguments when they're not able to formulate their fake defense.

Not so fast. You're claiming here that tajo is using anger as a replacement for reasoning. That might have been true a while ago, but I think his last post was a decent defense against your summary case on tajo, and remember that tajo didn't have that post to respond to for the majority of this bru-ha-ha. He just needed something in particular to rail against.

Also, tajo's argument that Muerrto "totally agreed" (or even just "agreed") with him is somewhat weak, but the real substance of it, that Muerrto's vote for tajo was unprecedented and with weak stated reasonings still holds fairly strong.

The problem I have with Grimmy's Tajo-hearts-Tony point is that it only works if he puts WIFOM into Tony's mouth. Defending a scumbuddy is still a massive risk, and no right-thinking player will or should assume that WIFOM will protect them if things go south.

[Vivian Darkblaam]

Yeah, CP just asked the question I wanted to ask ever since I finished reading the last page.

@Batt: I will give the difficult read point to you (though that is only a matter of dedication) but not the "deadline lets scum and idiots sneak in votes that shouldn't be made". Your behavior in constantly saying "we really should have had a lynch by now" is trying to create a permanent state of that deadline panic. What's the difference between a rushed vote at deadline and a rushed vote brought on by your calls for a consensus?

[Vivian Darkblaam]

Hey guys, sorry for... disappearing. It's going to take a real grind to get back through this game. Depending on how other stuff goes, I might have some time to do so this weekend. Please don't do anything rash while I get back up to speed.