Hydra Discussion Thread

For large social games such as Survivor where the primary mechanic is social interaction.
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Haschel Cedricson
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Post Post #22 (isolation #0) » Sun Mar 07, 2021 11:50 am

Post by Haschel Cedricson »

Right, let's explore this mechanic. Here are the games that have featured hydrae:

Arkham City:
Two-Face
Killing School Semester:
Korekiyo and Toko
Equestria:
Flim and Flam
Barely Survivor:
Tortoise/Hare, Droids, Lindsay Lohan

All four games handled this in very different ways.

Arkham City had it as a surprise hydra; the players were unaware that hydras were a possibility. It was done almost 100% for flavor reasons (mods can correct me if I'm wrong here. Killing School Semester still had them as surprise hydra but treated them like different players; the hydrae were introduced after the game had already started and entered the game late as "transfer students". This gave players an indication that *something* was potentially up with them, and the character choices were hints that more than one player might be behind the wheel. This was always an intended mechanic; it was planned that there would be hydras in the game before KSS went into signups.

Equestria was different; there was no mechanical reason for Flim and Flam to be a hydra. What happened was Malkon and Flum both came to me and said that neither one really wanted to play a full game by themselves but asked if they would be able to hydra. The idea amused me so I agreed on the condition that I got to pick their character, and I gave them Flim and Flam as a clue to the players.

Finally, Barely Survivor allowed hydrae as an afterthought but before signups completed. It was publicly known that hydrae would be in the game and furthermore they were intentionally flagged as such by virtue of having "X and Y" names. This allowed players to know exactly what they were dealing with.

All of these games were either Advanced or Complex on the rating scale. In terms of which games should have them I would say that they should probably never be in a Vanilla game and used extremely sparingly in a Standard. If it IS a standard game then they should be limited in number and also expressly flagged out as such to the players.
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Post Post #26 (isolation #1) » Sun Mar 07, 2021 12:03 pm

Post by Haschel Cedricson »

To take this a little bit further, I've always said that game design should start with a thesis statement and every twist or design choice should advance that thesis in some manner. I don't think mods should throw in hydrae for no reason.

Equestria's thesis was "Friendship Is Magic", so it made sense to allow a single hydra.
Barely Survivor's thesis was, as best I can tell, "cheap and terrible in a way that isn't ACTUALLY cheap and terrible". Hydrae weren't part of the original design but I don't think as implemented they took anything away from it.
KSS specifically wanted to "introduce despair" as their thesis, and surprise latecomers with secrets is on-brand.
Arkham City was basically the game with lots of good ideas thrown in with little consideration to how they all worked together. Thematically Two-Face made sense but ultimately I think Two-Face being a hydra doesn't even crack the Top Ten of wacky things about Arkham.

If a game doesn't have a thesis where hydrae make sense, then they shouldn't be in the game for the sake of having them in the game.
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Post Post #79 (isolation #2) » Mon Mar 08, 2021 7:34 am

Post by Haschel Cedricson »

In post 77, DeathNote wrote:
In post 72, Skelda wrote:I'll tell you one thing, this thread is really making me never want to play as a hydra because I feel like even if you win as a hydra, people are gonna be like "oh no, you were a hydra, such a huuuuuuge advantage" and it's almost like your win doesn't fully count. That sounds pretty depressing to me.
Sounds like redemption. Never understood why that mechanic is used when half the players have no interest in it.
Once the hydra discussion is done I'd be interested in a series looking at specific mechanics from previous games, analyzing what worked and what didn't, and discussing the benefits and disadvantages of the mechanic in general and I was thinking of starting off with Redemption twists.
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Post Post #124 (isolation #3) » Sun Aug 22, 2021 6:42 pm

Post by Haschel Cedricson »

Unpopular opinion here, but imo hydras shouldn't have to swap back and forth on challenges. If they are gonna occupy one slot, treat them like one slot.

If that puts a target on them because it gives them an advantage in challenges then oh well, that's the breaks.
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Post Post #142 (isolation #4) » Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:26 pm

Post by Haschel Cedricson »

Well fine, I didn't want to be in a hydra with you anyway.

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