Mafia 87 - New Age Mafia - Game Over!

[ZazieR]

/confirm

[ZazieR]

Juls, you forget that it's way unlikely that the goon was killed by a pro-town powerrole. The only one who could do so is a vig, and if a vig killed the goon then he's stupid as the chance of hitting town was way higher than hitting town.
Also, it would be strange if we would have two docs. I at least never have seen two docs in one game.

Which probably leaves a second scum group and/or a SK.
Although it's better to scumhunt, it could also be good to know which enemies we have.

Strife, what could scum gain from the answers of the question that Scheza asked?

[ZazieR]

Then why not a vote?

[ZazieR]

So you don't want to start a bandwagon for someone you see as scummy, while it would only be the second vote with 9 votes needed to lynch?

There have already been some players who should have read Strife's post, but didn't gave any comments about it with the exception of Caboose.

Also, weren't you doing the same as Scheza? Then why FoS him for it?
Besides, he already explained something.

[ZazieR]

ZazieR, you ARE in this game, right? If you are not watching this topic, then consider this a psychic poke to get you going .

I know. If you didn't see it yet, I have already posted before this post and not including the confirm post.

Well, in any case, I posted a vote on Juls without any reasoning somewhere up in that clump. I was looking to get a reaction of her, but from the looks of it none of the town even noticed. So, Unvote.

There were players who noticed it and gave some comments about it. But what kind of reaction were you expecting?

If you would like me to name then Scheherazade and Derhammer are the two most suspicious to me.

Why?
Also if you have two players you find suspicious, then why didn't you vote one of them instead of another random vote. You gave your (bad in my opinion) reasons for not voting Scheza, but why didn't you vote Der Hammer?

I'm not linked with Sheh in anyway, just a lowly vanilla. Look elsewhere good sirs and madams.

This is plain wrong!

Vote Der Hammer

[ZazieR]

You want an explanation why that part of DHammer's post is wrong. But you didn't want to hear why Juls FoSed instead of voting you, you gave no comment about al4xz's vote against Juls and you didn't complain about TAX's second random vote, while he saw two other players as suspicious.

Not mentioning Percy's post where he talked only about your posts and possibly started your bandwagon. I'm surprised that your first post is asking why I voted someone, while you didn't do that with other players and while you have to defend yourself.

But to answer your question: That statement is largely the reason why I voted him. The other post which caught my attention was where he gave his comment about Strife's post. Strife was serious, and he joked about it. In his last post, he mentions Strife's post again, by saying that he's not linked with you. Does he expect that all the other players now think he has nothing to do with you? I don't.
Then I'm bothered that he's saying that he's just a lowly vanilla. How is this helping?
And even worse is his last sentence I quoted: Look elsewhere!

Having said this

Fos Scherazade

.

[ZazieR]

I don't think Strife is doing that DH. But I'll let him first explain.

After his explanation, I will give my thoughts about your post more.

[ZazieR]

Der Hammer, Scheh, and now al4exz have all said scummy/controversial things causing them to lead the vote count. Everybody should be weighing in opinions on all 3 of these people if they haven't done so.

This just stinks of trying to shoehorn people into only focusing on three players.

It wouldnt surprise me to see the three town, and you mafia knowing that we are the targets for a quick easy lynch.

Unvote:Percy, Vote: Strife

He didn't. He asked for our opinions on them as they have the main focus on them and in some games, some players ignore the top suspects. It's good to see that someone wants to hear the opinions of other players about them. Who do you see as most scummy, DH?

Zazier, got anything more to add on that? Seeing as you said you would. *glares*

Why the *glare*?

I don't see the case against al4xz. I don't like his action of his vote against Juls, but I don't find him scummy due to that.
My opinion about DH is already shown by my vote.
Which leaves Scheza. I first didn't see anything harmful with his first posts. I just saw a player wondering who could have done the killing. But he now focuses on defense of his actions. I want to see something useful from him regarding finding scum. From that, I hopefully can see what to think of him.

[ZazieR]

Is this for real ?! I've learned that it's wrong to use more than one '!', but DH's last post deserved more than one '!'.

Strife's post isn't the best, I agree, but he's kind of telling the truth. Take the next example:
SilverPhoenix and andersonw are seen as the best lynch by the other players. Deadline hits in 2 days and many players are doubting between those two players. But when SilverPhoenix claims his role, cop, and players believe him they will switch to andersonw who's a townie.

SilverPhoenix is now known as the cop by both town and scum, but if the scum roleblocker is killed, town still has a cop instead of a townie.


Then next is your reason for your vote. You vote him, to save your self? What if Scheza is a town powerrole? Then we kill a town powerrole for you. If you're a townie then you should vote the one who's the scummiest to you. As you can still win when all the mafia are dead. Even when you're dead.

[ZazieR]

Look at the players however who have completed consistantly tryed to deflect all attention onto me while they slip by. Thats the list of players that mafia probably can be picked from on Day 2.

What are you saying here?

[ZazieR]

To me, if you don't give the guy-who-everyone-wants-to-lynch (DH) a final chance to defend himself/herself, then you deny the town possible information, more or less depending on what role they were.

I agree with this.

I was aware of this, but I didn't take it too seriously as it had been claimed early. If I was a doctor, then I would claim VT at first, and then if I got L-1ed then I'd claim Doctor.

DON'T! I can't give the example, but this happened once in a game. The player who did this was lynched for lying.


Also

Vote al4xz

Here are some quotes from him at the end of day 1 and day 2:

Don't give bullshit. Even though this is internet, I can obviously discern the disgust in Juls tone of voice of said quote. If you can't, I don't trust a single action you make any more, unless it's something you can't screw up.

Vote: Derhammer

This is the third time he talked about DH. The first time is when DH asked why the insane doc is mentioned. The second time is when Ribwich says he's still waiting to hear from DH. This is al4xz responce:

Yeah, we hear only bits from him, but everything he says seems to be scummy.

The third time he votes, with in my opinion a bad reason.

Personally speaking, this will provide us more information, and we don't need a village idiot dragging us down later on in the game (wasting a lynch now to gain some info is alright, wasting a lynch later can be disastorous). Hey, I just realzied something:

Village idiot: Abbreviation: Vi! o.O

You know what I just realized, there's no 'if' in that quote. You refer to DH as village idiot, without an 'if', and you're talking about wasting a lynch, without an 'if'. I have some problems with this.

I guess it's pretty much decided that we will lynch either DerHammer or Scheh, right? So I guess we might as well do a reread, then decide between the two, unless some magical fairy pops up and saves their ass.

Gut feeling is telling me to remind this one.

Now that I have expressed this view, I actually think... we should lynch him. Unvote, Vote: Scheh

Allow me to explain. First, Scheh goes off and creates the big argument with you, wasting a lot of the town's time. When I asked him why he didn't just say, "oh, sorry, you guys were right, it was rolefishing", he said instead that he didn't say that because he refused to lie. He believed that it wasn't rolefishing and that therefore, saying said excuse would be a lie. I believed that what he said there was the truth, and if he's actually a Townie, I'm impressed that he stood by that choice despite the trouble it has caused him.

Hmm...yes, I agree with you about Derhammer, Percy. I'd rather have Scheh (who may or may not be useful) than Derhammer, the village idiot. Scheh at least strikes me as someone who tries to help. Derhammer just keeps joking around, so we can't trust him to sit still for a minute, let alone help us.

Vote: Der Hammer

I don't like the sudden switch in your vote. I don't like the reason to switch. You're just agreeing with Percy (why and about what exactly?) and you're just saying that DH is gonna be a liability to the town. I'm having some problems with that.

Are you serious? Shit! Town, sorry! I never realized how close we were! Fuck!

Did you, or did you not read every post?

Actually, never mind, I had already voted for DH earlier and Percy had confused me into thinking I was voting for Scheh. =.= However, DH is still hammered; Gerrendus placed the final.

You voted DH, you unvoted and you had put DH at L-1. So I don't see what you're saying in this post.

I thought I still had my vote on Scheh. I voted him because I thought it would put him in L-1, L-2, etc. not because I wanted to lynch him straight off the bat. Not letting someone give their final words before they get lynched is anti-town, reckless play, etc.

So why aren't you voting Gerrendus?

I want to know how in 24 HOURS he could forget that he already voted for Der Hammer... especially when an updated vote count was posted between both his voting posts.

Tells me someone is: (a) not paying attention, or (b) reaching for excuses.

- Tom Mason

Have it your way. Think what you want. Not everyone can remember everything. Have you ever heard the expression, "people don't notice what's right underneath their noses?"

I'm having a problem that you're dodging the question.

That's bullshit. The scum always think about their vote before they make it so that they can't be pushed around about it. The town should always think about their vote before they make it, but sometimes they don't think too closely enough

I'm having a problem with this defend attempt.


I also have a problem with Gerrendus. He hammers DH at 3.06 am.
He realises this at 3.08 am.

[ZazieR]

I'd debate with you on this, but it wouldn't be very helpful for the town. Remind me when I need a topic in the Mafia Discussion forum.

We'll do that when both of the games are over.

I read every post, maybe not every detail all the time, but I do try.

As you could guess, there's a reason why I asked this question.

Both Derhammer and Sche are at L-3 from my countl

This was with your first vote

Vote: Der Hammer (L-2)

In between your posts came also a VC.

Then Percy votes, you again and last but not least Gerrendus.
Of those, I really don't like your reaction after the lynch. Especially as you didn't look at the VC, possibly didn't notice Juls and Vi counting and following Percy.

If my memory serves me right, I voted DH, then a page or two later I voted him again. That's what I mean by, "actually, never mind." What I was trying to say in that post was that "whew, I didn't just do something terrible to the town."

It was only one page, but it was the same day in which you unvoted and revoted.
I still don't see why you said 'actually never mind'. What's the point of saying 'I had already voted for DH earlier'? Should this make any difference?
Also I just noticed this:

Gerrendus placed the final.

It gives me the impression that you want all the attention at Gerrendus.

Perhaps I don't find him as suspicious.

Didn't you say that not giving someone their final words before their lynch is anti-town?

If you havn't noticed, there is no specific question there. Tom wonders how the hell I could have forgotten, puts out the point that I had switched my vote only a day ago and that an updated vote count was posted between the 24hr span. I then proceeded to tell him, "I forgot. Everyone forgets sometime," indirectly, in my post.

TM wanted to know how you could forget it. In that quote he gave even two options for you to pick. Not to forget that you could also go for the comical 3rd option. However, you just state that you can't remember everything. But as shown in this post, there have been 3 posts in which players/the mod were warning for the amount of votes. And all 3 of them were one day before your second vote! You even followed a player, so you should have known that there was one vote more. If you had read all of them, it would seem strange that you just forgot them, while a player was almost lynched.

Can I ask what you mean by having a problem? If I'm not mistaken, I tihnk you mean there's something remotely scummy about it, but you can't point it out directly like yo ucan point out oranges. Am I correct?

Nope, you're not correct. For all those wondering, we're talking about al4xz's response to this:

It was not a matter of remembering, it was a matter of taking five seconds to check the voting. You made two mistakes in that process... (1) You thought you had not already voted for Der Hammer and (2) you thought that you helped to hammer Der Hammer.

I do not like your reaction because it makes it seem like you took nothing into consideration until AFTER the fact. You were more than happy to make the move and then think about what you did. When, if you are scum, you do not need to think of your vote.

And to those who question the witch-hunt of Scheherazade, I do not disagree that his play has been erratic. But something about this situation does not sit well with me at the moment.

Which was:

That's bullshit. The scum always think about their vote before they make it so that they can't be pushed around about it. The town should always think about their vote before they make it, but sometimes they don't think too closely enough

I get the impression that you're saying you can't be scum as you didn't think about your vote, while scum do. If so, I'm having problems with it. If not, what did you mean with it?

I think ZazieR echoes a little of what I have said. I have nothing new to really add right now. If al4xz would have had the voting issue happen over a span of time substantially longer than 24 hours, I would buy the whole "I forgot" spiel.

And Gerrendus, I do not think you are helping yourself either in this situation. You and al4xz are essentially fighting the same battle. My vote only goes to him because having already voted, I would expect him to be more aware of the entire situation than someone just placing a vote. This is not to say I think you both should have been paying attention.

This, except for the bit about me

Rib, where did al4xz said the part you quoted in post 350?

[ZazieR]

Okay, the discussion between Scheza and Jazz needs my attention as well, but I want to hear Jazz first about Scheza's last post.

Back to al4xz. Thanks to Rib, I have found the quote.

To me, a Village Idiot is basically anyone who plays like an utter fool, whether they are town or not. And I'm unsure how not having a 'if' on the wasting lynch part is bad.

This response came from this:

Personally speaking, this will provide us more information, and we don't need a village idiot dragging us down later on in the game (

wasting a lynch

now to gain some info is alright,

wasting a lynch

later can be disastorous). Hey, I just realzied something:

Village idiot: Abbreviation: Vi! o.O

You know what I just realized, there's no 'if' in that quote. You refer to DH as village idiot, without an 'if', and you're talking about wasting a lynch, without an 'if'. I have some problems with this.

You said 'wasting a lynch' aka you knew that DH wouldn't turn up to be scum. That's my problem with it. That ,with your reason to vote DH the second time, is wrong.

[ZazieR]

Again, apoligies, disappearing just when people asked me questions. I had a lot of schoolwork to complete, and on top of that I'm running a large scale forum game on another forum. In any case, all the projects are gone (I'm still waking up and thinking, 'what do I have to do today...'), so I'll be active from here on out. I hope.

I'd debate with you on this, but it wouldn't be very helpful for the town. Remind me when I need a topic in the Mafia Discussion forum.

We'll do that when both of the games are over.

I read every post, maybe not every detail all the time, but I do try.

As you could guess, there's a reason why I asked this question.

Huh?

The reason is given below. You said you have read each post. Then I start wondering how you forgot about it, while two players were counting and while there was a VC between your post.

Both Derhammer and Sche are at L-3 from my countl

This was with your first vote

Vote: Der Hammer (L-2)

In between your posts came also a VC.

Then Percy votes, you again and last but not least Gerrendus.
Of those, I really don't like your reaction after the lynch. Especially as you didn't look at the VC, possibly didn't notice Juls and Vi counting and following Percy.

I can understand that. It looks a hell lot like distancing, even when I read it.

True, but I was bothered with your reason for voting DH. You were convinced that Scheza was the better lynch, but the post of Percy changed your mind. I have trouble believing that.

If my memory serves me right, I voted DH, then a page or two later I voted him again. That's what I mean by, "actually, never mind." What I was trying to say in that post was that "whew, I didn't just do something terrible to the town."

It was only one page, but it was the same day in which you unvoted and revoted.
I still don't see why you said 'actually never mind'. What's the point of saying 'I had already voted for DH earlier'? Should this make any difference?

It saves me from guilt that I had killed him without giving him a trial.

Why does that matter?

Also I just noticed this:

Gerrendus placed the final.

It gives me the impression that you want all the attention at Gerrendus.

Perhaps I don't find him as suspicious.

Didn't you say that not giving someone their final words before their lynch is anti-town?

Yes, I did, but I believe that he wasn't lying when he said that he had forgotten.

The same goes for him as well. There were two players counting and there was a VC posted before. And it's strange that he checks after he votes, while he should have known that DH was getting near a lynch.

If you havn't noticed, there is no specific question there. Tom wonders how the hell I could have forgotten, puts out the point that I had switched my vote only a day ago and that an updated vote count was posted between the 24hr span. I then proceeded to tell him, "I forgot. Everyone forgets sometime," indirectly, in my post.

TM wanted to know how you could forget it. In that quote he gave even two options for you to pick. Not to forget that you could also go for the comical 3rd option. However, you just state that you can't remember everything. But as shown in this post, there have been 3 posts in which players/the mod were warning for the amount of votes. And all 3 of them were one day before your second vote! You even followed a player, so you should have known that there was one vote more. If you had read all of them, it would seem strange that you just forgot them, while a player was almost lynched.
Forgetting is basically not paying attention. ...Actually, forgetting is not paying attention. Even though I hate those words against me, I admit that that's the truth.
It IS strange. I was still thinking I was voting for Scheh for some reason. I dunno.
Wait, now I remember, I believe I was about to go off for class when I voted for DH. I think that was it...or was that something else?

Can I ask what you mean by having a problem? If I'm not mistaken, I tihnk you mean there's something remotely scummy about it, but you can't point it out directly like yo ucan point out oranges. Am I correct?

Nope, you're not correct. For all those wondering, we're talking about al4xz's response to this:

It was not a matter of remembering, it was a matter of taking five seconds to check the voting. You made two mistakes in that process... (1) You thought you had not already voted for Der Hammer and (2) you thought that you helped to hammer Der Hammer.

I do not like your reaction because it makes it seem like you took nothing into consideration until AFTER the fact. You were more than happy to make the move and then think about what you did. When, if you are scum, you do not need to think of your vote.

And to those who question the witch-hunt of Scheherazade, I do not disagree that his play has been erratic. But something about this situation does not sit well with me at the moment.

Which was:

That's bullshit. The scum always think about their vote before they make it so that they can't be pushed around about it. The town should always think about their vote before they make it, but sometimes they don't think too closely enough

I get the impression that you're saying you can't be scum as you didn't think about your vote, while scum do. If so, I'm having problems with it. If not, what did you mean with it?

I was merely making stating my opinion on what he said. Albeit in a vulgar way.

I think ZazieR echoes a little of what I have said. I have nothing new to really add right now. If al4xz would have had the voting issue happen over a span of time substantially longer than 24 hours, I would buy the whole "I forgot" spiel.

And Gerrendus, I do not think you are helping yourself either in this situation. You and al4xz are essentially fighting the same battle. My vote only goes to him because having already voted, I would expect him to be more aware of the entire situation than someone just placing a vote. This is not to say I think you both should have been paying attention.

This, except for the bit about me

Rib, where did al4xz said the part you quoted in post 350?

I can't tell you how, but I believe in some way in the english language that CAN mean 'if we waste a lynch now for information it's alright, ..." However, I suggest we take a quick vote on tihs right now. Perhaps your english grammar is better than mine. Take a vote everyone - who thinks this can mean both or can it only mean that I already knew the DH hammer was a waste?

My English grammar better ?!
Read my posts, and you will see it's not my native language.
Nope, can't see it means your suggestion.

[ZazieR]

PP, not again...
This one's even worse.

[ZazieR]

It's that she said she didn't find Der Hammer all that suspicious, but didn't seem to mind if he or I got lynched. Maybe this is a weak point, but it's in a townie's best interest to see someone scummy lynched over someone who's merely a useless player, but not suspicious. Not only did she not fight for that, she didn't even seem to express an opinion to that effect.

And what did al4xz do then? Didn't he vote DH as he saw him as a useless player, even as a village idiot, a VI, but no comment about that from you. He even said it himself, he voted DH, but saw you as scummier. I'm surprised that you only attack Jazz for this, while she kept her vote on you, the one who she saws as most suspicious, while al4xz didn't.
Speaking of al4xz

ProddyProdProd for al4xz, please

. He hasn't posted since last sunday, while he said that he would have more time.

I've seen two games of him where he voted for strange reasons. But both are ongoing so I don't think it's allowed to talk about it. But yeah, it's common for PP.

[ZazieR]

I hope VRK has talked with you about selfhammering, PP.

[ZazieR]

Question to every PP voter:
Did you vote him as he seems scummiest to you or for a different reason?

[ZazieR]

So you could be confirmed by your partner?

[ZazieR]

Not yet Iam. It's better to know if the masons are confirmed by the mod. If they are, then it is good to know who his partner is. When his partner confirms this, we have probably two confirmed players.
I'm not sure if we should know his partner when the masons aren't confirmed by the mod. Is it then better to know who they are or not?

PP, how many partners do you have? In your post with your claim, you said that you have another partner.

Also

Mod, I saw your post in mafia 88. Does this mean that Incog will mod here until you have internet access again?

armlx replaces al4xz. Thanks armlx!

Stalker .

[ZazieR]

PP can you check your role PM to see if you and you're partner are confirmed? If you're not, please name your partner.

[ZazieR]

Regarding post 244
No, it wasn't helpful of DH. When you are town, town is the first priority and you have to do whatever you can to achieve our goal. That doesn't mean that you should vote the player with the most votes after you as it's possible that he's a townie as well. And it appeared that that was the case.
Just assume that after DH vote, that everybody would have voted Scheza and he was the lynch instead of DH. Don't you think that day 2 everybody would have jumped back onto DH's wagon?
He should have posted why Scheza deserved to die, instead of him. That would have been much better than just vote him in order to survive. The only ones who need to survive are scum and ,if we have one, the SK.

Regarding post 457
I didn't get the impression that everyone was voting him for finding him scummy. Especially Percy's, TM's and IAAU's posts. Including that I think that there are 2 scum factions and a SK/vig, it seems more like following.

But you may also explain the last sentence of 451 IAAU.

[ZazieR]

I'll accept the second chance OGML. Thanks for it.
Will post my thoughts tomorrow as I have been a bit busier than normally.

[ZazieR]

Well, I just started posting again since yesterday. That's why I've been absent for a while. I should have let you known about it, but it was rather unexpected.

First of all, Tar's claim. This would explain why nobody was killed during N1 if it's the truth. The only thing that bothers me is the weak doc. I've played one game (mini 656) which had a weak doc, but that player knew that he was a weak doc. If that's usually the case (that a weak doc knows that he's a weak doc), then why would he protect someone without knowing a thing? But there could be many reasons for this so I'm only noting this.
And I also advise not to outguess a player's action. I tried with that weak doc, but I was terribly wrong. Maybe it's strange to us that DC investigated Tom, if he's telling the truth, instead of Scheza, it could be that he had a reason for it. It's wrong to say that it's likely fake for doing something you wouldn't have done.

About the massclaim, I wouldn't mind doing it now. It would give us an impression about the set-up. What's the main reason for not doing it today?

Like I said to the mod, I would post today. Although it only exists out of some my opinion about some important things. I will respond to the points made against me, Tar's case against Jazz and I'll post my suspicions tomorrow as well.
Thanks for the extension.
And I hope that everyone had a happy Christmas this year.