Micro 1035: Commandless Chain of Command [game over!]

[skitter30]

I think Skitter was very likely the mislim if she wasn't confirmed

Why?

also by virtue of the fact that nobody has tried to kill me apparently >.>

[skitter30]

It's easier to win an argument against the person who was my top townread with someone who has vocally scumread me as the conftown decider?

uh yes >.>
if you're in a 'mechanical conflict' with your top townread the fact that you townred them is sort of irrelevant

also generally i think most people probably think i'm harder to win an argument against than dwlee (<3 dwlee)

[skitter30]

ok i guess my question is why does dwlee need to back up iv anyways?

Because he's a PR claim who hasn't died or done anything? You don't think people might sus him for still being alive?

no. for example, i don't sus him for being alive

[skitter30]

Spoiler:

VOTE: Dwlee

And we’ve gone out of RVS.

VOTE: Dwlee

And we’ve gone out of RVS.

How?

I caught scum.

VOTE: Dwlee

And we’ve gone out of RVS.

How?

I caught scum.

Why

Dwlee

is scum?

Because

I caught them

.

Trust the process.

i mean there might be a process but i'm not trusting you

Well okay so:

Dwlee is too complex a player to make the initial push in 26 in a literal way and I don’t think town them would do that.

well this is nice and anti-associative

[skitter30]

Wait, I just mixed up Ico and IV in my head so badly there, ignore that

Knowing Dwlee and IV aren't scum together... actually does help to some extent, because it means that what went on earlier wasn't theater.

I believe that is +town for Dwlee.

the irony

[skitter30]

oh everyone was talking about townslips but I don't think anyone brought up the actual townslip yet

oh more irony

[skitter30]

You passed my shitty test, for what it's worth. I wanted to make sure that you would actually think critically about the mirror vote instead of just shrugging it off and continuing to call me scum.

why *did* you keep your vote on me here? and why were you scumreading me day2/day3 again?

[skitter30]

Literally when LOL

not this game but I did in the next pandemonium game lol

Did you just

Say you were scum

This game


Uhhh

still think this is anti-associative?

[skitter30]

oh more irony

Are you really shading me for having stances? You have seen my scum game right?

well not shade so much as noting earlier you were calling it a townslip and now that i'm calling it a point in not teamreading dwlee/iv you're saying it's associative for them

[skitter30]

i only read the day1 isos since i remember most of the day3 ones.

[skitter30]

oh thanks, i actaully did somehow miss those >.>

and i do see your point, but i guess i wonder why scum-dwlee even calls so much attention to that bit in the first place

and fwiw i am trying to sort out here if i'm confbiased, as there are a few pieces that don't fit perfectly (namely, why *aren't* i dead) but i'm having a hard time coming up with a coherent solve otherwise that i'm satisfied with

[skitter30]

What is standing in the way of the Dwlee/IV solve?

Well:
- i'm still not sure why they didnt have a fakeclaim ready if dwlee put iv to e1
- why do they feel like they need to coordinate where the rb shot went
- why iv is still kinda confused/unsure if he oughtto be townreading dwlee, wouldnt the whole point of corroborating the claims be to be able to townread each other?
- dwlee kinda got there, and had a natural thiught process as they worked through the implications of the claims in a way that i thouhht was townie, but why didnt iv have the implications of the story down

Whereas for you/darby the main blocker is ... why did you cc dwlee? And i have no anti associatives for this pairing either

Like iv/dwlee is the one i feel p good abt ruling out, and that's what you're trying to sell me

[skitter30]

And why you havent killed me

I still dont really get why u think i'm supposed to think its townier that you're cc'ing dwlee and not me either tbh

[skitter30]

i would like to provide the counterexample of radio buzz, wherein i was scumreading u since basically you repped in and you lot never considered killing me and i ended up in elo

[skitter30]

I mean nobody's reads matter but yours so like, I can easily see why they wouldn't want to associate too closely together.

dunno his confusion seems p real to me

[skitter30]

i mean sure but the argument that i ought to townread you because you'd have killed me seems fallacious to me since:
- you seem to have been gearing up to pushing me since like eod1, and killing me would kinda ruin that
- i have a counterexample where i was pushing scum-you and i wasn't a high priority kill at all (yes i just reread the scum pt of that game >.>), so i'm not sure why i should think you would have auto-killed me here

[skitter30]

I mean nobody's reads matter but yours so like, I can easily see why they wouldn't want to associate too closely together.

dunno his confusion seems p real to me

also why would he at least get his story straight?
the confusion feels p genuine to me and it would be p good acting imo if that whole interaction is fake with his partner

[skitter30]

Ss i'm lowkey wondering if you didnt cc me so that you can make the argument saying u would have cc'd me

Also out of everyone here, i think you're the most likely to do claim/mechanical shenanigans

[skitter30]

By that i meant: having both scum claim prs

[skitter30]

Ahhhhhhhhh elo is hard >.>

You're putting up more of a fight than i think scum-you does

[skitter30]

What do u think are the differences between this and radio buzz
I actually also reread part of day3 of thay game and see a lot of similiarities

[skitter30]

What is standing in the way of the Dwlee/IV solve?

Thanks ss for elaborating on your scumgame last night

I guess posts like these are where i'm seeing the similarities, in RB you also did try to find out where my 'blockers' were to your proposals, albeit thereit was more mechanics based, and here its more reads based

[skitter30]

Yes, you did have to “prompt” me because I’m just now mentally catching up (read: me asking both Dwlee and SS obvious questions that everyone else understood. I don’t like doing that.). Not to mention, there’s only been 2 real days, and I’m not terribly useful d1 typically. The read you have against me at best is circumstantial. I stand by my original post defending myself that I should not be your push today because your argument is based in vague assumptions that don’t have concrete base. It’s in both your best interest and the best interest of town to find who you think my partner is and lim them first and see if that makes sense I’m their partner.

Ig sure the timing but i can wave away given irl stuff
But i guess the meat of my argument is the poe and, well, from my pov it would need to be ss/dwlee or iv/dwlee in order for you to not be scum, and the latter i dont really see, and the former ig i'm having a hard time with too

[skitter30]

If I'm scum here I'm literally psychic

Tbf it isnt unreadonable for scum-you to guess he was gonna be on me n1, and if you're scum by saying he was rb'd n2 you basically absolve yourself of having to guess a second action

I really, really dont see iv/dwlee, i just cant make it work in my head. I can maybe buy one or the other but partners idk would be really weird

[skitter30]

can you remind me what you're not seeing about ss/dwlee again?

ig i find darby's claim to be the least believeable + i'm having a hard time seeing why ss/dwlee cc each other like this?
also again i find dwlee's claiming to be a lot more real than ss's

[skitter30]

Spoiler:

VOTE: Dwlee

And we’ve gone out of RVS.

VOTE: Dwlee

And we’ve gone out of RVS.

How?

I caught scum.

VOTE: Dwlee

And we’ve gone out of RVS.

How?

I caught scum.

Why

Dwlee

is scum?

Because

I caught them

.

Trust the process.

i mean there might be a process but i'm not trusting you

Well okay so:

Dwlee is too complex a player to make the initial push in 26 in a literal way and I don’t think town them would do that.

well this is nice and anti-associative

Oh lol my entire push was a knee jerk reaction to my other Datisi game that Dwlee was kind enough to link.

can you explain this again / elaborate on this? i don't get it

[skitter30]

now i think i like the ss/dwlee solve hmmmmmm

[skitter30]

now i think i like the ss/dwlee solve hmmmmmm

When i go back and read earlygame, i still get some distinct townpings for darby, dwlee not so much

I do think ss can and would suggest scum counterclaiming each other, and from the game dwlee linked, i think they'd go along with it

[skitter30]

And then we both gained psychic powers and lived happily ever after, the end.

Well you knew that md was a vt, and darby claimed before you, and its reasonable to guess from his claim that he acted n1

And i dont think its crazy that dwlee guessed who iv docced, and claiming the rb was on him n2 means that they dont have to guess that night action either

You dont have to be psychic at all, and dwlee only has to guess once. Its not like there's 4 night actions that you two have corroborated

[skitter30]

Scum-you would have guessed exactly one night action, and doing so definitely isnt 'psychic' levels of implausible imo

[skitter30]

And then we both gained psychic powers and lived happily ever after, the end.

Also fwiw i really dislike this because yours literally doesnt require any psychic powers at all

[skitter30]

It's like one in 7

One in 6 and from how he's been talking about me,not crazy to think it would be me

[skitter30]

I mean i think 1s's almost always act n1, no?

[skitter30]

Not even from a mechanical optimization pov or anything, i think that almost every 1s is just gonna act n1 most of the time ...

[skitter30]

Like dwlee's guess is a lot more 'significant' than yours but even so i dont think its out of the real of possibility for them to have made that guess

I think i'm at ss/dwlee or ss/darby rn

[skitter30]

babysitter
doctor
tracker
lazy jailkeeper
lazy roleblocker
1-shot friendly neighbour
1-shot neapolitan
1-shot loyal vigilante
1-shot watcher

@ss well if scum is claiming a pr here tracker is probably one of the easier ones, no?

[skitter30]

Fair enuf

[skitter30]

Although watcher would also be making the same gamble r.e. darby as well

[skitter30]

I mean i do the same :p

[skitter30]

Well if you watched me n1 iv is a reasonable guess, not sure you'd have been able to guess darby on me

[skitter30]

I chose IV because multiple people thought the claim was suspicious/unlikely to be true.

Based on the setup I knew that the roleblocker could give a fake non-kill

night target so I targeted him again + he hammered the no lim before everyone checked in

can you explain this again dwlee plz?

[skitter30]

Dwlee i dont even think you have to be psychic at all as scum - if you guess iv's action wrong the team crom your pov just becomes iv/ss vs darby/ss, no?

Since you're already in a mechanical cc with ss i'm not sure it becomes so much mote risky to cc iv as well

[skitter30]

And ss from your pov why is it dwlee/iv and not dwlee/darby again?

[skitter30]

No, it just means someone's lying in you two as well?
Doesnt automatically mean you're the liar

[skitter30]

Ah ok sorry >.>
I'm thinking in circles rn

I think i still want to flip ss tbh

[skitter30]

If ss flips red i just die

[skitter30]

Probably (?) i an leaning towards that but i'm not sure

I probably independantly tr you and iv the most, and at most there can be one scum in you two, and you're both leaning towards ss/dwlee, which is making me feel better abt that solve

[skitter30]

I'm having a hard time maintainig what the game looks like to town-you lot 4x >.>

So actually you're right, i think

Ig i'm also not surewhy scum-dwlee locks themself into this solve

[skitter30]

My point was that if I flipped scum then IV would have to be town and scum could only RB him if Dwlee were scum so killing you would be a scumclaim from Dwlee.

Yes fair point

I keep looking at the thread title and expecting it to say "game over".

I tend to overthink things and ruminate a bit too much
I want to go over a few things tonight and then i'll vote

[skitter30]

From darby's pov it has to be dwlee/ss, right?

Because ss/iv is impossible because then town-dwlee's result is impossible

[skitter30]

Like that's actually a perspective slip

Tbf i also didnt realize this

[skitter30]

I mean like i said i didnt either so not sure its a perspective flip

Darby - can be ss/dwlee, dwlee/iv is possible, ss/iv is not possible
Iv - can be ss/dwlee, can be ss/darby, can be dwlee/darby
Dwlee - has to be ss/darby
Ss - can be iv/dwlee, cant be iv/darby, can be dwlee/darby i think

I think that's right from everyone's pov (?) Maybe

[skitter30]

Just want to point out that you two are confscum to *each other* but are defending the other in teams that you dont like (e.g. ss defendingdwlee in ss/dwlee)

[skitter30]

From darby's pov it has to be dwlee/ss, right?

Because ss/iv is impossible because then town-dwlee's result is impossible

A better reason then I have but yeah fmpov the solve is SS/dwlee. I feel this thread is going in circles so unless directed to vote or questioned I won’t have much to add. I’m impartial on either. I’ll reach my win condition all the same.

From your pov why do you think its not iv/dwlee ?

[skitter30]

Fwiw part of the reason i think darby is town is the pyp ...

I'll read more later

[skitter30]

i mean fair but he's also been a lot more genuine in trying to solve here than he has there,there everything he wrote sounded really forced and made up and like he had to try to make up the thought proces, here i feel like i can kinda watch his mind work and see his thought process

[skitter30]

Oh also fmpov ik Dwlee is scum now. There’s no way they can have that confidence it’s me, not share it, and I’m town (which I know).

Speaking of out of the loop...

also fwiw i think darby would have a better sense of the mechanics if he were partnered with ss ...

[skitter30]

ok i think i'm just gonna vote ss, i'm kinda going around in circles and i'm not sure i really have anything else to add

ss anything else you want to say?

hopefully this isn't wrong but eh i don't think i'm goign to reach further clarity at this point

[skitter30]

other people that come to mind as being moderately suspicious are s_s, a50, dwlee. look into iv but i think thats town

darby probably flips red. look into dwlee and darby for most likely scum outside of mindhack

fair on tw but this is the last thing osuka said about you and md were split (iirc pooky was scumreading, aly was townreading)

[skitter30]

Why do I call my own partner's post a townslip and then proceed to 1v1 them

What kind of a plan is that, Dwlee was literally my only townread coming into today

i mean the townslip was like a very long time ago, and i still kinda think the plan was to push me coming into today ...
also i think the goal is to get the other partner to be 'conftown' if you're both scum and we flip one (because who cc's their own partner, except i think that both of you actually would ...)

[skitter30]

i really don't know, i don't know why scum have made any of the choices they did this game tbh

but i don't really think iv is scum, and i just can't swallow iv/dwlee
and i think that darby is independently town
so this is what i'm left with

[skitter30]

I mean like i get what you're saying and how it kinda makes sense from a mechanical standpoint but like it just doesnt fit into my reads at all

Maybe your plan was just to come into today and make a mechanical mess

I dont know

[skitter30]

How is dwlee confirming themself as scum again?

(Sorry i feel like i'm being really slow and and indecisive this week, i'm trying to sort this out and not miss anything and i know everyone is waiting for me but i'm kinda sick and not firing on all cylinders rn)

Like iv/dwlee just doesn't make sense to me, iv is trying to flip dwlee and is sus of him, and their two claims together just dont mesh and make sense as partners. They contradict each other and are picking too many arguments in the wrong places as scum. Iv is too suspicious and it just doesnt match the way dwlee is approaching the situation, and they dont make sense together in my mind. Like i just cant buy it

That makes iv town so i'm left with the three of you.

[skitter30]

Dwlee/darby is weird cuz dwlee has a mechanical guilty on darby and darby is trying to flip dwlee so like i guess possible but kinda bizarre ? Like idk more likely than iv/dwlee but bizarre nonetheless

Like darby is fakeclaiming nea (so i suppose this is the pr claim they were told abt), and dwlee is fakeclaiming tracker in such a way where they're apparently psychic in the exactly way where they clear a townie and have lockscummed their own partner and their partner has lockscummed them and its just bizarre i guess ? Like i guess in this universe they're trying to push you (as dwlee has you confscum) but darby isnt pushing you, he's pushing his own partner and just like why and like i guess he has to but its just ??? i dont get it

[skitter30]

And you/dwlee dont really make sense either because why are you fakeclaiming each other

But neither of you really feel like you're pushing each other's flip, neither if you have a sense of urgency about getting flipped or not

And i guess also dwlee managed to create an exact universe where they confed a townie and have to push their own partner, but like you're not really trying to get dwlee flipped (you're mostly shading iv and inexplicably townreading darby) and dwlee isnt really trying to get you flipped either

--
And darby/ss tbh makes the most sense from a mechanical standpoint and is the least convoluted and also kinda makes everything fit together (ignoring the fact that i townread darby):
- dwlee is just telling the truth and did indeed see iv and isnt locking themself into a mechanical puzzle
- nea is a stupidly easy fakeclaim
- you're inexplicably townreading darby
- tbf i still dont know why you cc dwlee and not me but both your and darby's claims are sort of empty and not proveable

Ok i kinda talked myself back into ss/darby again

[skitter30]

They contradict each other and are picking too many arguments in the wrong places as scum.

Maybe contradict is the wrong word but they dont have a unified story coming out of this for where scum is, and they keep clashing on nitty-gritty random unessential things in a way that i dont think scum would

I wasnt talking abt the literal actions/claim, i get that those corroborate each other

[skitter30]

Like my objections to iv/dwlee are playbased, not necessarily mechanics based

Darby/dwlee is just too convoluted ? Like they're both mechanically conf scum to each other and like its bizarre to me that they would choose such a play? And this also requires dwlee to be psychic

So either way i'm left with you being scum ...

[skitter30]

I tracked IV to skitter N1 and to no one on N2

? I’m pretty sure I visited skitter last night too LOL VOTE: dwlee

there’s no way dwlee can get a no result in me if they’re tracker right?

UNVOTE: Dwleeuhh I need to thjnk about this but I will probably revote

Bizarre on a partner

[skitter30]

We basically went from D1 right into lylo. Why would you expect your reads to be good?

I mean sure they're possibly trash and i could be tunneled but i can't make the solve make sense otherwise >.>

There's just too many small interactions between dwlee_iv today that look anti-associative to me

[skitter30]

Spoiler:

I chose IV because multiple people thought the claim was suspicious/unlikely to be true. Based on the setup I knew that the roleblocker could give a fake non-kill night target so I targeted him again + he hammered the no lim before everyone checked in

I tracked IV to skitter N1 and to no one on N2

? I’m pretty sure I visited skitter last night too LOL VOTE: dwlee

wtf unvote me

dude unvote because if darby is here they just hammer. My result confirms you town

wait is it possible for iv to be scum with my result

This is also part of why I opposed the iv lim btw, I figured I could guilty him if he wasn't actually a PR

also how the fuck do you think I'd guess your n1 target unless I'm literally psychic

And if I were scum I could have just said anyone else had no result unless I actually roleblocked you and was worried about a watcher (but that would still give a 1v1 so)

Where were we

Okay since this is finally happening and the mind hack and worst wagons are boring

VOTE: IV

Claim please

ah there’s the E1 (:

and no I’m not claiming rn wtf

oh jeez we only have 3 days? Double wtf

okok fine if I don’t have anything good for you guys in ~48 hrs I’ll claim.

Like if I'm scum with him couldn't I have just gone "IV claim <blank>" when I E-1'd him instead of him stalling to "verify" with me?

If we kill SS I'll tell you why it's darby and not me tomorrow

? well we might not kill SS today

i would rather have a good idea of what the solve is today

Well the other option is me and then the game is over so...

These feel anti-associative ro me

[skitter30]

What i liked is:
- dwlee figuring out the implications in real time (i.e. i didnt grt the sense that they had already thought thru the implications, like i imagined they would have if scum anc this was planned out)
- while dwlee was coming to the conclusiont that iv is town, iv is coming to the conclusion that dwlee is scum -> this is what i mean by uncoordinated, if they're partners with a corroborated story why do their conclusions feel so disjointed and unplanned?
- like 954 dwlee has to tell iv the implications of the result -> wouldnt that have been discussed already as scum?
- dwlee seemed to have been planning the use of their action since iv claimed, to which dwlee's reaction made you think they didnt know scum had a freeclaim. They cant be scum together and plotted the fakeclaim while dwlee didnt know they had a fakeclaim ...
- why did iv claim like that to begin ...

Like yeah the actions line up, sure. From your pov i can see why it.looks scummy. From my pov them both telling the truth seems like a reasonable conclusion, and there's several small details pointing tothem haveing *not* worked on corroborating the story

Like i understand distancing, but if the story was corroborated the pieces would fit together more, and the overall picture would be more clean and less jagged imo

[skitter30]

I figured some things out in real time as well... and DArby didn't really figure them out at all. Surely this counts against a me/DArby team at least as much as it counts against Dwlee being scum?

I havent gotten the vibe from you at all that you're sorting out the implications in real time. Maybe from darby but def not from you - and this is actually a tell that made me p convinced you were scum in rb, tjat you had basically pre-understood the implications of the guns

[skitter30]

954 isn't necessarily Dwlee explaining anything to IV... it's not like IV would never have made the vote he did if he knew that. It's just Dwlee explaining why that vote is bad from Dwlee's POV, which doesn't seem that hard to fake to me?

Iv doesnt seem to realize that he's conftown to dwlee is my point, which i think he would if they had come up with this plan ...

[skitter30]

I've already said this but if I was scum with IV and E-1ing him I could have (and would have) told him what to claim

I mean tbf not if you forgot you had a fakeclaim ready

[skitter30]

Soooo… SS?

Yes probably >.>

[skitter30]

So, I guess the way this went down is, scum realized that if only one of them claimed PR that it was going to be 4 PR claims 1 VT claim, and the VT claim would look the worst since why would scum both claim PR's if there were only 2 real PR's. Which I guess is true regardless of who the team is. But if you are to assume that the scum in me/Dwlee claimed PR out of (perceived) necessity, then it makes a lot more sense that Dwlee had to take a stab in the dark (presumably because IV used the mod provided one) than that I deliberately went into a 1v1 knowing that the conftown scumread me.

I don't think I would even leave you alive skitter, let alone force myself into a 1v1 that's an autoloss if I lose it with you deciding.

Ok fair abt those posts, but this one felt tmi to me in the same way ^

Like you had thought abt the implications of everyone claiming pr already

[skitter30]

Iv doesnt seem to realize that he's conftown to dwlee is my point, which i think he would if they had come up with this plan ...

Would he not also if he were town? That kinda seems like something that would be relevant if he were, you know, actually trying to sort Dwlee.

Ig my point is if he's town, its possible he didnt realize the implications (again, like i didnt) whereas if he's scum anf the *whole point if the plan* was to havr this result, i imagine he would realize it

[skitter30]

ugh i don't know if i've solved this completely but i'm sick and can't think properly and realistically i don't know if i'm getting to a better answer before deadline and i don't know if dragging it out until then will help anything

VOTE: ss

<3 sorry if i'm wrong

[skitter30]

i'm assumign that was wrong :(

[skitter30]

it's ok
sorry ss, just don't think i was going to get there this week :(

you/dwlee?

[skitter30]

i don't think i've been that wrong in a while :/

[skitter30]

ugh

[skitter30]

yeah you did good,
you were either both town or both scum and i picked wrong

iv's side in particular looked really really realistic
i had that niggling feeling of doubt but yeah wasn't enough

just feel kinda bad cuz i could tell ss was really trying as either alignment. but i don't think that thinking in circles for another day and a half would have gotten me there confidentally enuf either so yeah

[skitter30]

you did good too dwlee

[skitter30]

you absolutely did, i'm sorry that i couldn't get there .... i usually go for reads > mechanics but it burned me this time

[skitter30]

Gg everyone, thanks dats for modding, gj scum

Wasnt my best game overall

But i liked the setup and thought it was fun

[skitter30]

Fwiw i kinda dont see the point in no flipping in evens in situations like this, both here and in pyp

And i would argue in pyp it was explicitly anti-town to do so, and here it was kinda meh and not necessarily anti-town but not really helpful

[skitter30]

It was really frustrating to have likr four days of night in a row, yes

Also sorry ducky <3 i'm not sure i explicitly was scumreading you at that point so much as i figured after day1 u were going to be a question mark for the rest of the game and that was probably the eqsiest way to just resolve it and move on.

Also like in twilight i kinda in the moment crumbed you, cuz i felt it was important to have some sort of documentation in case i died, and kinda wanted to change my mind in the night but felt lowkey locked in cuz of the crumbin/loyal situation, i just really didnt want it to be ambiguous

But yeah idk wasnt an easy one

[skitter30]

i'm still incredibly sus of tw here

In twilight and then i kinda felt locked in ^

[skitter30]

Darby you were great :)

[skitter30]

And also none of them did anything useful for town :P

Seriously >.>

[skitter30]

as scum I did like going D1 -> ELO basically immediately tho :3

Wasnt as great for us >.>

[skitter30]

Fwiw i dont think i necessarily would get flipped off of that

[skitter30]

also I thought it made no sense for scum to use roleblock on n2 on IV

Same but i couldnt get all of the mechanics to work with my reads anyways >.>

[skitter30]

The exception being if DArby outed his result before skitter managed to claim, then her claiming unconfirmable PR would indeed look sketchy.

Yeah this idk if i coupd argue out of but without the result i dont think i get flipped in that scenario