Mini 695 - Futurama Mafia - Over

[pacman281292]

/late confirm; sorry for being busy...

Vote: Porochaz

for being that pissed-off with the confirmation phase.
OH WAIT

Unvote.

It's not funny to put many votes on someone on page 1.

Vote: Jahudo

because dice told me so.

[pacman281292]

pacman your post made no sense...

That's called a joke, as you said from your own post.
FoS: Porochaz
@wolf: I don't understand what's happening... this looks like either the biggest metagaming i've ever seen or the most complex breadcrumb ever existed. Or the biggest joke i've ever seen. I'm with the last, but it looks like it might be the first.
Sorry for the weird post, I'm tired...

[pacman281292]

oops, not bold... but it doesn't matter

[pacman281292]

pacman your post made no sense...

That's called a joke, as you said from your own post.
FoS: Porochaz
@wolf: I don't understand what's happening... this looks like either the biggest metagaming i've ever seen or the most complex breadcrumb ever existed. Or the biggest joke i've ever seen. I'm with the last, but it looks like it might be the first.
Sorry for the weird post, I'm tired...

I didnt understand thats all, I just wondered what you meant, I cant see how that deserves a FoS...

You are being hypocrite. My first game post is a joke; Your first posts are either jokes or something really weird, as I've stated later...

[pacman281292]

@Xtoxm: Check MafiaWiki.

[pacman281292]

That looks like:
a) a stupid Jester
b) a insane townie, or a weird role
c) a insane scum
I've never seen someone acting as Xtoxm is doing... I didn't understand the "supposed" Poro's breadcrumb...
This is a really weird game...
I'm lost

[pacman281292]

xtoxm, what in hell do you want to do?
Seriously, are you a Jester or not?

[pacman281292]

That looks like:
a) a stupid Jester
b) a insane townie, or a weird role
c) a insane scum

Does this mean you think he can't be SK?

SK ∈ weird role.
Not truly, but I thought that I included it. Anyways, if he is SK, he is the biggest idiot or frustrated guy I've ever seen...

I think that Zoidberg would rather be an insane doc or a quack (?).

[pacman281292]

L-1.
Is someone going to hammer/claim against the lynch?

[pacman281292]

oops, misread Dukes' post

[pacman281292]

Good job, Jester Xtoxm!
Or, stupid Xtoxm SK/Survivor/Scum/Town.

[pacman281292]

crap...

[pacman281292]

hmm...

Vote: Dukes.

I didn't vote Xtoxm because his SK claim was something just incredible. He must had been very frustrated to do that and quit on that way. So, I thought that he might as well be a town role like bomb, or a weird scum trying to make a "double-bluff".
Or, still more probable; a jester.
Your vote and list of suspicions are extremely weak. And possibly this vote. But, anyways, I'm a little frustrated, and I'm going V/LA since tomorrow.

[pacman281292]

Pacman's confirm post happened after Xtoxm exploded. He jokingly voted for Poro before retracting it and voting for Jahudo. Then, when asked what the heck just happened, he pointed the FoS at the person who asked him. All this when we had a known Threat to the Town already out there. He then continued not to vote for the admitted Serial Killer. When asked about this, he said he was worried about there being a bomb or a jester. Those roles I could buy being in a 24-person game, but a 12? Wouldn't only the essentials be in a game like that?

Now, since it appears I'm more out of place than the token Washington National at the MLB All-Star Game, I'll stop short of voting just yet. But... doesn't Pacman's play seem kind of odd in retrospect?

WTF
A SK claim is something extremely odd. So, I thought that it was just a joke claim, and I ignored it. How do you completely deduce that there are no bomb/jesters in mini THEME games? Or possibly VIs? (no offense, xtoxm)
So, I decided to not believe the claim, and I tried to find out what did he try to do with that. I failed, and he was indeed a SK.
You say that I'm acting scummy just because I'd make a "weird" joke vote and because I didn't believe a SK claim?

If the only thing Pacman did wrong was being scared of a bomb or jester role, I'd write it off as overthinking. But one of his first acts was to cast a random vote, then once asked why he voted the way he did, he changed his vote to his accuser. It seemed rather fast to be paranoid.

Pacman is 1 not because he's V/LA, but because he got defensive right from the get-go. If you look at his first votes, he cast one at random, was asked why, and switched to the person who asked.

BULLSHIT.
My first and second vote were IN THE SAME POST! HOW IN HELL CAN SOMEONE ASK ME SOMETHING ABOUT A VOTE JUST ON PREVIEW?!?!?!
Porochaz said "your post made no sense", and I just joke FoSed him. I DIDN'T CHANGE MY VOTE AFTER JOKEVOTING JAH 'TILL THE END OF DAY 1.
Please, stop strawmanning me.

Confirm Vote: Dukes

If I skipped something, please tell me.

[pacman281292]

You strawmanned me. That's why I voted.
And now you OMGUS me due to a "supposed" OMGUS FoS. FAKE. Recheck the post where I FoS Poro and then talk.
Seriously, you gave me reasons to not to remove my vote with that post. Congrats.


oohhh... I found the question:

This I like. Pacman give us your train of thought on who's scummy and who's towny. What do you see?

Very Scummy: Dukes. Explained before
Weird: Prorchaz. I don't understand his posts, and his "breadcrumb" D1 confused me.
Town gut: Drunken Piper. For some reason, he looks townish... I need to review this...
This is a raw 12 PM list. I need to re-analyze the others (and also recheck the ones I listed), then I'll poat a complete (and better explained) list.

[pacman281292]

I never said it was authoritative. It was simply a way of telling Pacman I'm not alone in thinking the way I did. It was a way of pointing out that Pacman was smokescreening -- instead of addressing other people's concerns, he goes after the person who's already the furthest ahead. His Day 2 posts at the time dealt pretty much with only one person who had (admittedly) played the strangest on Day 1 among those still alive.

Just think about something here, people: Pacman's return post was aggressive, written with massive capital letters, standoffish, and ignored a concern shared in favor of trying to start a bandwagon on the person who objectively was most likely to have it go through. When called upon this, he continued his standoffish behavior, not offering any real opinion on anyone else but instead continuing to push for the lynch of a full-claimed townie.

(I understand that saying I'm Bender doesn't fully clear me, but remember: even though he's a robot, he has "the heart of a human.")

So, while I'm not trying to make false appeals, I'll take any lifeline I can get.

Then it's authoritative. You are trying to say that I must not wagon you because jah agrees with you. Agreeing with a person is something, and you are taking fake consequences to it. And yeah, you claimed townie, but usually mafia does it as well.
I don't think that Bender would be a powerless townie. However, with this I enter to the mod-guessing, so I'll stop here.
(in a funny comment, Bender has "the heart of a human" in literal way... i.e, a heart saved into him )
I'm voting you due to the way hou have had badly strawmanned me. Read carefully my last 2 posts and you'll se what I mean.

After my recheck:
Porochaz: Weird. Confirmed. It's funny how did he meta (or catch breadcrumb? or what?) in X and he did make it correct... Also his "breadcrumb" (that might not be it as well) is weird...
Dukes: Scummy. Strawmanned me, then OMGUSed. And others, that I've explained in my posts.
Jahudo: Not scummy. He is looking well the game, and he has made some good posts and questions.
Zorblag: Focused on Dukes, but in my opinion neither scummy nor townish.
Drunken Piper: hmm... after the review, I don't know what to think about him... me confused...
kloud1516: Not completely sure about him. Some good comments, some not-good ones, some bad ones... I don't know what to say about him...
LlammaFluff: Didn't understand him well...
wolframnhart: Neither...
(GhostWriter) Kmd4390: No read.

[pacman281292]

Answering questions/replying comments. If I missed a question, please tell me, and I'll answer.

I have a few questions to pacman about why his suspects:

Porochaz: Weird. Confirmed. It's funny how did he meta (or catch breadcrumb? or what?) in X and he did make it correct... Also his "breadcrumb" (that might not be it as well) is weird...

I think poro joke voted because of his meta on X. What breadcrumb are you talking about?

kloud1516: Not completely sure about him. Some good comments, some not-good ones, some bad ones... I don't know what to say about him...

Why aren't the bad ones making you think he's scum/anti-town? Why aren't the good ones making you think he's town/pro-town? Are they not strong enough to get a read? Are they cancelling each other out so it's more of a neutral read?

LlammaFluff: Didn't understand him well...

Do you have a specific reason?

1) His very first posts were weird, and all people began to talk abot a supposed "breadcrumb" (the only thing I saw was "Come On People!"), and I got really confused. And it's NOT a suspicion; it's a weird thing I couldn't analyze well...
2) I'm not completely sure about him, as I've said; I don't know if the good points beat the bad ones (townish read) or if the bad ones beat the good ones (scummy read), so I don't know if I must say "townish" or "scummy"
3) I don't know. I've not read his posts well, and I didn't catch something into them... no idea why...

The only people I can see who have crumbed are myself and Wolf.

mm maybe you... but wolf? where?!
I didn't get what was happening with Poro's first posts (read above, point 1) and I got badly confused.

Where did you try and do this? You suggested it at one point but you never actually made any attempts that I saw.

I must not keep yelling it. I tried to analyze what he tried to do with that claim, trying to read well his posts... and I epic-failed .

[pacman281292]

@MOD: Requesting Votecount, please...

[pacman281292]

@Dukes:
Why don't you get what I say?!
I AM VOTING YOU DUE TO THE WAY YOU HAVE STRAWMANNED AND ATTACKED ME WITH WEAK BASIS!

Oops, Kmd makes a good point... I need to reread that part...

[pacman281292]

Reread are always good, they make you realize the really obvious stuff that you missed the first go around. I am going to go ahead and

unvote, vote pacman

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In pacmans opening post he makes a joke vote. While in most cases there is nothing wrong with something like this, in this situation it is scummy. Shortly before this opening post, xtoxm claimed SK. I have a massive problem with you not even mentioning this, let alone not casting a vote, laying a FoS, or even commenting on who you believed. Random phase had just broken, so trying to revert to it is scummy.

When attention Is called to this, he FoSed Poro for seemingly unrelated reasons, and just stated he was confused, thinking that this was a joke instead of anything else. If it was a joke why the need to FoS poro, or even fail to mention it until prompted?

Calls the FoS on poro for doing something “really weird” which never got elaborated on. Still little mention of the exchange between the two players at this point.

Now he jumps to the xtoxm = jester conclusion. While I guess this finally gives some input to the conflict that is occurring, it really doesn’t add anything. He spends more of the time at the end of D1 mocking xtoxm instead of working on any theories, or even responding the ideas that I was creating.

Today we started off with the “damn” post which is a weak tell, but it still sets me off a bit when there is a comment of how the night panned out without any real backing to it, such as claiming a kill as from a vig, or protecting (or more in this case RBing) a kill.

Most of the case that pacman uses against Dukes is weak at best (which is ironic since that is the reasoning he voted Dukes), and OMGUS at worst (which it is more to me). The vote is also made for “strawmanning” which I really don’t think occurred in this case. I am bad with the word, but have never seen it used on the first post a player makes in a game, even more so a joke post.

Later pacman goes on to say that his FoS on Poro was due to the fact that he did not understand his post against xtoxm early on, the one that he thought was a breadcrumb. This doesn’t hold up with his explaination of people later, in which he lists me, DP and kloud as “don’t understand” and no read on kmd and wolf (wolf is interesting here since I had pressed him already at this point). Using similar logic he should of FoSed us all at some point if he is confused.

So I feel that pac is using some very weak reasoning to be voting for Dukes, that stems mostly from an OMGUS origin. When you add on the fact that he has avoided most of the topics of conversation for the day, both the poro/xtoxm exchange for the early stages, and my attack on the players who I believe acted subpar and tried to set up D2 lynch before D1 completed.

Also I know this is going to get asked so I will say it now. I still consider wolf a decent lynch for today. At this point though pacman is looking like a better lynch.

First part: I didn't pay attention to Xtoxm's claim because I DIDN'T BELIEVE IT. When attention turned to him, I still thought that he would be rather a vi (no offense) or a jester or a mafiate making a really weird gambit.
Second part: My FoS on Poro was half a joke, half a very weird thought.
Third part: Read the post of the FoS. "That is called a joke, as you said from your own post".
Fourth part: A SK claim is very weird, and I didn't call it; the claim did really confuse me.
Fifth part: Does not compute... *explodes*
NOTE: This is not a breadcrumb. Seriously. I just didn't understand that part.
Sixth part: Dukes started attacking me due to my votes day 1, which were made just ON THE SAME POST. He said that I did make a vote to the first person who asked me about that: FAKE.
I also think that I misused the term; it means something like the take of a little part of the post ignoring the other part and making a weak attack based on that.
Please explain why do you think my case on Dukes is OMGUS on the worst case.
Seventh part: You didn't understand what I meant on wolf; I meant that I had the same on him than on you, i.e, I didn't understand well in him... maybe due to stupidness (from me)?
The part on Poro looks like a misunderstanding from me; Xtoxm did really confuse me... ouch...
I had no read on Kmd because I had no read on GW and because Kmd did just enter to the game.
I didn't get the last part of that paragraph. what did you try to say?
Final part: Holy jamaican limbo stick! What did you mean with that?! I didn't pay many attention to Poro/Xtoxm because that got me really insane...

[pacman281292]

pacman: Of course we didn't know for sure that Xtoxm was telling the truth, but most people were working off the theory that he was SK and deciding whether or not to keep him alive. Why didn't you at least evaluate both sides and see which you'd rather support in the hypothetical case that we did have a claimed SK and jester wasn't a possibility?

Because I got completely lost with the claim. Who in world would openly claim SK? Poro's guess looks like a lucky shot or possibly meta, and Xtoxm's posts after that totally confused me. I totally thought that he might be a jester trying to attract attention, or possibly a scumbag making a really weird gambit. Or a total VI (no offense). Or, possibly, a SK annoyed of his role. I did really consider multiple possibilities, but I didn't consider this possibility enough well... and it showed up to be correct... ouch.

pacman, have you watched futurama before?

Yeah. I LOVE it. That's why I pre-inned to this inmediately when I saw this on farside's sig .

[pacman281292]

I thought pacmans behaivour might have something to do with him not understanding family guy (a it of confusion for myself), he has now confirmed that he has an understanding thereore I

vote pacman

, I haven't liked many of your posts in this games so far.

On a related topic, purely for conversational value, I think I cried for the first time watching a cartoon during Jurassic Bark, if you havent watched it, it is in my opinion the best episode ever.

?!?!?!?
waitwaitwait... what does flavor have to do with my case?! nothing, till when I know!
WHAT'S THE MEANING OF THAT VOTE?!?!?!

His first discussion with me and his defence against Llama are prime examples, however very little of his posts have caused me to think he's town. I did mean Futurama, sorry.

Explain. My discussion on you was just because your first posts looked weird to me by some weirder reason (but now when I think on it, it looks like Xtoxm screwed me...). Why do you think that my deffense on llama is bad and voteworthy?

[pacman281292]

Explain. My discussion on you was just because your first posts looked weird to me by some weirder reason (but now when I think on it, it looks like Xtoxm screwed me...). Why do you think that my deffense on llama is bad and voteworthy?

What do you mean Xtoxm screwed you? Xtoxm never talked about you at all. I don't see any way for you to argue that the suspicion about you now is Xtoxm's fault? Do you mean that your reaction to Xtoxm's play has put you in a more precarious situation? How is that his fault more than yours?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

His posts confused me, and made me get a little overeager on Poro. Xtoxm's post confused me, and made me misinterprete Porochaz...

[pacman281292]

You can be confused by Xtoxm's play -- heaven knows we all thought it odd -- but honestly, your play didn't get much stronger as the game went on. While I hate to use a superficial reason on top of all the others I've noted, SHOUTING AT PEOPLE WHO QUESTION YOU DOESN'T DO ANY GOOD. It doesn't help the conversation and makes people more likely to dismiss your point as a ranting. (Yeah, I know, I know -- I'm one to give advice.)

To me, it's not your defense on Llama -- who is not in my line of sight yet -- but rather the angry tone of your posts, plus the terse evaluation of people's arguments (in the "nine points" post) that put me off the most. It seems to come across as you being appalled anyone could possibly think you're anything but a saint -- and unless you're the mayor of a Mafia game, you're a suspect. (Maybe even then, for all we know.)

Good point.
Yeah, I admit that I've been a little overeager, but it was overmost because your pretty weak case on me made me get angry. I recognise that I must calm down.

[pacman281292]

Pacman, show us how the case on you is weak if you think it is.

I mean Dukes'. He started attacking me due to a supposed OMGUS vote D1 that never happened; my only two votes D1 were on the same post. He also accused me of a OMGUS FoS D1; my FoS on Porochaz was not OMGUS. I answered on a little eager way to it, and Dukes kept accusing me from the same thing.
His basis for accusing me are not enough good, and (imo) he didn't answer well to me while we were "bickering".
However, in his last posts he is having some good points; I've been very overeager.

[pacman281292]

I did answer to you (Kmd) and to Llama. If you think my answers are not good, please tell me and I'll explain. The only thing I don't see is why is Porochaz voting me.

[pacman281292]

Explain. My discussion on you was just because your first posts looked weird to me by some weirder reason (but now when I think on it, it looks like Xtoxm screwed me...). Why do you think that my deffense on llama is bad and voteworthy?

What do you mean Xtoxm screwed you? Xtoxm never talked about you at all. I don't see any way for you to argue that the suspicion about you now is Xtoxm's fault? Do you mean that your reaction to Xtoxm's play has put you in a more precarious situation? How is that his fault more than yours?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

His posts confused me, and made me get a little overeager on Poro. Xtoxm's post confused me, and made me misinterprete Porochaz...

Its things like this that still are making me comfortable with my vote. When pacman seems to be half resigned to being the lynch for the day, and instead of really providing a solid defense, or better alternatives to his lynch, is just using slight AtE and saying that xtoxm is the main reason he is now getting lynched.

BZZZT...
You are misinterpreting.
Xtoxm's play confused me, but I didn't mean that Xtoxm is the guilty of my actions.
The main reasons I'm being lynched are, as I see:
My case against Dukes (and I can't see why)
My crappy posts about Porochaz
My random votes day 1 (Dukes really misrepresentated that to all, and Llama is also trying to use it against me, just because I didn't believe Xtoxm's claim (something that is pretty incredible...)

Answering well to you (Llama):
I've deffended myself, didn't you see? Yeah, I'm a little resigned because the ones voting me are looking like not removing their votes (mostly Dukes and you).
... doesn't know how to finish the post...

[pacman281292]

*long post from me, deleted because it was waay big*
sigh... blue screened 3 times making this post, I give up. I hate this post its a very weak defense to some quite large points, the fact you didnt pay attention to the largest part of the early game is scummy to me.

vote pacman

, your other posts as Ive said before havent been much better

@Poro: Please read my latter posts, where I explained the meaning of that. OK?

hmm... I hate this... but I have something important to say; I have a power role, that can be useful to some extent (despite of being partly suicidal), and I have some (little) info. Yeah, this info is not that useful, but...
OK, I'll roleclaim. I hope this is useful.
I'm Hermes Conrad, limbo player (aka hider). I didn't use my action on night 1, I limbo'd behind Jahudo night 2 (and I survived as you can see). If farside used the "official" verion of the Hider role, then it means that Jahudo is innocent (otherwise, I would be dead); if not... then I don't care.
I'm protown.
Thoughts? Wagons on me? Decide...

[pacman281292]

Also pac, why did you not use your power n1?

Because I was scared of making something stupid, hiding behind a scum w/o telling, and dying.
Sorry to all for not posting at weekend; I had LA during that time.

[pacman281292]

oops *slaps self*
I'm blind, and still more when I come from V/LA.

why does it bother me that I am the only one who questioned the claim and I didnt even have a vote on Pac?...But Poro and KMD remove their votes so fast. Everytime I have been a Hider or Modded a game with a Hider I provided the information whether hiding behind a mafia member is fatal or not. He comes out and claims that the most protown player is town and people just eat it up without question. He doesnt scum hunt. he doesnt provide his thoughts on anything else....he doesnt comment on yesterday..

Pac, why have you not commented on yesterday, provided in thoughts on who you think are scum, or scum hunted today? Why did you think it was a good idea to claim just now? Why do you think it was a good idea to come out and "clear" Jahudo if you werent sure about "your role" without asking the mod first? If you are really a hider, can you please ask the mod? Can you please provide your top two scum list and why?

hmm...

I hid behind the most pro-townish player with the intention of survive 'till tomorrow, and re-confirm his alignment. And because I'm a coward, and I didn't try to hide behind any other player; I didn't find a better "refuge", and so I did hide behind jah. Stupid... but it's still info... and now that I've claimed, I can come up with info.
Why haven't I commented on yesterday? Why did I claim? When N2 started, I knew that the way I pushed the lynch on Dukes (a townie) would be the insurance to my death. So, I decided to gather info with my role... but I got to be enough coward to hide behind the towniest of all. I didn't comment about D2 because near to all the info was about Dukes and me.
Also, at the beginning of D3, with Kmd and Poro, I knew that part of the case on me on day 2 was still alive, so I decided to claim and give out the little info I had. However, it's a good point.
I was V/LA at weekend, but I now have more time on my comp (my sister is on vacations), so Ihaave more time to reread all more carefully.
About my role... I deduced, with the phrasing of the role (thing that, if I reveal, would mean a modkill) that there were dangerous "hiding points", and I deduced the version of the role was "the original".
I'll ask farside for clarifiation (but I might not get answer...).
About my top 2... I'll reread all now, and come with that.
I know all this looks like AtE, but that's what I think *slaps self*
To Zorb: I didn't use my power N1 because a wrong hide would kill me, and I didn't find someone enough "townish" to hide behind.
And, no, I'm not brain-controlled
OH WAIT ARE WE ON LYLO?
*checks player numbers*
OMG

[pacman281292]

@Jahudo: AtE= Appeal to Emotion.

I'm having the worst V/LA period I've ever had on my short life on MS:
I'll leave town and make a long travel (with null access) Nov 22-23. From there, and until Nov 30, I'll have a very highly limited access. And I'm leaving my country Dec 1-8 (what wirtually means zero acces to me on that time).
In short words, I'll have near to none access Nov 22-Dec 9, so please feel free to replace me if needed, or keep me if you can.
(I would prefer Option 2, but...)

[pacman281292]

OK
At least you are warned.

[pacman281292]

pacman281292: I've seen his claim and talked about it some. I really hope that he'll have time today (before he hits V/LA) to give us thoughts beyond his own defense. If he is town I don't think that I've gotten much other from his play to help us other than his clearing of Jahudo which is good but mostly a confirmation of town play. If he's going to be mostly gone for big stretches then it feels like we'll be down a resource that we didn't get much use of. I'm certainly not saying that I think he's scum because he's going to be unavailable but I do think that he's done as little as about anyone to help me form opinions other than that I found him scummy yesterday.

hmm...
The first part is a good point (and I'm talking about that now).
However, the part that looks weird is the last part. If we lynch protown (what I am, sorry for trying to be Captain Obvclaimer), we lose. No more no less.
Or possibly we discover that there were just 2 scum instead of 3. I doubt this.
Sorry, I must leave my comp right now. I'll hardly try to get access later, or tomorrow.
Sorry

[pacman281292]

OK, here I go:
The idea of massclaim came up to here. And, it's possibly good, because we are very likely to be on LyLo (and Stoofer's 2nd law or something like it makes me think that, effectively, on LyLo)
(the law I'm talking about is: more complex setup = slight bias in favor of scum)
I don't know if this massclaim idea might work, but I'll declare myself neutral.
I've also seen that people is trying to slightly "outguess the mod", trying to find out how the setup is. Idon't think the setup will be that similar; just compare Futurama and FG
My toughts, player by player:
I receive lots of vibes (scummy and townish) from kloud; some of his posts are weird, others are definitely scummy, others are townish.
I receive a very strong town vibe from DP; his attitude is really good and, still being abrasive, he is catching some good points.
I receive a neutral vibe from wolf; his posts are usually short (possibly I can't see his long posts), and don't tell to me anything.
I receive a not-so-good vibe from Zorblag; possibly due to his high activity, he usually makes some bad points; also, he looked "swingy" at some points. He is not totally scummy, but he is sometimes not good.
Kmd hasn't posted actively lately (possibly he explained when responding to prod), and I don't know what to say about him.
I receive a not so good vibe from Porochaz; his posts are usually not good, and he swinged waay fast after my claim. However his last posts are not too bad, so it gives him points on his favor.
And a list of my read on each player, in ascendent order of "towniness":
Porochaz (less townish for me, sorry for not elaborating enough because I must go to sleep now)
(very little distance)
Zorblag
(very little distance)
Kmd390+kloud1516 (tie)
(very little distance)
wolframnhart

Drunken Piper

Jahudo (most townish)
Bye

[pacman281292]

EBWOP:

.
.
.
(and Stoofer's 2nd law or something like it makes me think that, effectively,

we are

on LyLo)
.
.
.

add italicized; i missed to put it.

[pacman281292]

uh?

hmm... I would rather need to be replaced. Sorry