Mini 692: Boost Mafia (Game Over!)

[springlullaby]

Hi guys, missed the thread. Marking it by posting.

[springlullaby]

Boost electra

I think her post comes from a townie.

What skillet said seems superficial but on second thought I think it makes a good point, it's good to keep in mind that mafia may have abilities that are independent from boost to avoid reasonings based on wrong basis - ie: "X can't be responsible of action XXXX because X hasn't been boosted".

I don't like TDC's vote on him.

VOTE:TDC

[springlullaby]

1. I retract my statement about skillit making a good point in his 'odd case', upon further review, the point he makes diverges from mine. However I do not see what he said so far as indicative of his alignment one way or another.

2. To explain my vote on TDC, I think his vote on skillit is scummy because he evokes the motive 'looks like backpedalling', but I don't see evidence to that.

However, I have a better suspect now.

--------------------------------------------

Unvote, Vote Incognito

1. Incognito has yet to take a position on Electra, indeed despite multiple posts since the beginning of the game, he has not once addressed the Electra issue directly, preferring to ask peripheral questions instead.

I think this is scummy because assuming Electra is town, scum wouldn't know how to react to her post, and would want to gauge town's sentiment first.

Btw, to answer your question Incognito, I think Electra's post comes from town because I read her as town and think the odds for a scum gambit are low. What do

you

think of Electra?

2. All of Incognito's posts has 'look I'm such a good little townie' written all over them, but has yet to produce anything meaningful.

a. Ask 'soft' questions of doubtful relevance in about every post he makes, but doesn't seem to garner any insights from the answers he got.

Last example to date.

@Electra:

Are sthar8 and Skillit the only two people in this game who you have metas on?

What is the purpose of this question? How do you intend to garner insight from the recipient's answer if any?

FWIW, I didn't really think sthar8's response to my vote was very panicky at all, so I wouldn't mind Raging Rabbit explaining why he thought it was a panicky reaction a bit more.

See 2b

Alright, I apologize for missing the beginning of this game. I forgot to look for the thread and was waiting for a PM saying the game has started, after confirming, which never came.

Have all of your previous games been modded by mods who send PM's out when the game begins?

Same questions as above.

Bolded mine.

2. A weak vote on sthar, it doesn't convey a sense of suspicions, but rather annoyance at sthar answering in other's stead. When sthar answers, Incognito seems to be satisfied with sthar's response as indicated by post addressing Raggin Rabit, yet vote still on sthar.

Tell me Incognito, what do you think of sthar exactly? Was your vote meaningful in anyway in the first place?

3. A prod within the first 3 pages, wtf.

Incognito, I think you very much resemble scum trying to look busy, what do you think?

[springlullaby]

I retract my statement about skillit making a good point in his 'odd case', upon further review, the point he makes diverges from mine. However I do not see what he said so far as indicative of his alignment one way or another.

So...what point were you making? How is it different to Skillit's point?

I made only 3 posts so far, if you can't bother to read them, don't count on me to babysit you by repeating myself. If you think that my point doesn't diverge from Skillit's, you point out how it is the case.

A prod within the first 3 pages, wtf.

I was moderately surprised to see your name as the last poster in this thread as I didn't realise you were playing. So yeah, I think the prod was justified.

Again, do you read? Incognito's prod was not directed at me.

Now tell me, what is the purpose of this post exactly?

2. To explain my vote on TDC, I think his vote on skillit is scummy because he evokes the motive 'looks like backpedalling', but I don't see evidence to that.

Could you elaborate?
Which is it, do you think he wasn't attacking Electra in the first place, or do you think he's standing by his attack?

I may be wrong on this but my leaning is that Skillit's 'odd post' wasn't an attack - see him mentioning the joke at the end of the post; this is a judment call, mine.

In any case I see the case on Skillit as lazy and fail because it all hinges on one question: whether Skillit was attacking Electra, whereas IMO the answers he has provided so far is at least satisfactory enough to nullify the point.

Glad to see you getting more involved now, springlullaby. I almost forgot you were even in this game. Addressing your points.

I do not like the passive-aggressiveness of this, I post when I have something to say, and posting a lot doesn't make you town the same way as posting less doesn't make you scum. What matters is the content. Agree/disagree?

Btw, to answer your question Incognito, I think Electra's post comes from town because I read her as town and think the odds for a scum gambit are low. What do

you

think of Electra?

I didn't know what to think of Electra's page 1 claim at first. If it had come from a raw Newbie, I might have checked him or her off as obvtown for it. However, Electra has been on this site for quite some time now, and while I agree that the odds of scum making a gambit like that are low, I think it's still plausible for scum to do it, especially experienced scum. I thought eldarad's rather astute observation that he made

at the bottom of this post

was probably the best reason put forward by anyone to believe Electra might just be town here. I didn't think the assumption that scum probably wouldn't do such a thing on page 1 was powerful enough a reason to check her off as obvtown like everyone else seemed to do, so I preferred to reserve my opinion of her until I saw more content come from her. So to answer your question, as of right now, I'm leaning pro-town on Electra not based on the assumption that scum probably wouldn't do what she did but more based on what eldarad mentioned and her additional contribution to the game.

I do not like this answer as I note here that you have to appeal to a reason provided by another person to form an opinion on Electra.

2. All of Incognito's posts has 'look I'm such a good little townie' written all over them, but has yet to produce anything meaningful.

Um, yeah, this is such weighted bombast. I've been

trying

to hunt scum. I didn't like the initial route the discussion took since it seemed to focus purely on the game mechanics which seems more theoretical to me. I think it's

extremely

easy for scum to hide in that type of discussion since it focuses more on information rather than analysis and leaves people reading completely neutral. I prefer asking questions directly to people and engaging in conversation by analyzing posts and eventually formulating gut reads. In my opinion, theory discussion is very unlikely to reveal much about a person's alignment, so the sooner we could move away from it, the better.

You are saying here that you prefer reserving judment before commiting to anything, well let me tell you that I think 8 out of 10 persons who prefer to reserve judment are scum because 1)it is hader for them to form an opinion in the first place2)they want to keep all options open the longer possible, especially if they do not indicate their initail read at all, which is your case.

What do you think?

a. Ask 'soft' questions of doubtful relevance in about every post he makes, but doesn't seem to garner any insights from the answers he got.

Eh? All of my questions have been very relevant to the game, and I certainly wouldn't classify them as "'soft' questions" either. Just because I don't immediately reveal my insights from the answers I get doesn't mean that I haven't formulated any opinions on them. When I'm ready to make a case against someone who I think is scum, I'll do so but certainly not this early in the game. Trust me, when I have a scum read on someone I'll make my opinion on the person blatantly obvious. Right now, this is purely the information-gathering stage for me. I've seen certain things from people that make me lean slightly town on them or slightly scum but not enough to come to a definitive answer with respect to their alignments.

Does the post you linked have a relevance to the present game at all?

As for your 'info-gathering stage' see above.

@Electra:

Are sthar8 and Skillit the only two people in this game who you have metas on?

What is the purpose of this question? How do you intend to garner insight from the recipient's answer if any?

It would be rather nice if I didn't have to answer your bolded questions until after Electra responded to my question but if you absolutely must know now, I asked the question because I couldn't entirely figure out why she chose to comment solely on sthar8 and Skillit with respect to the meta-game and why her meta leans town on them. I mean, yes, Skillit in particular seems to be receiving the majority of the attention as he has accumulated the most votes thus far, so I could understand why she might have taken the opportunity to vouch for him but then she also referred to sthar8's meta when I personally don't think he seems to be in any real danger as of right now. Her reference to sthar8's scum meta just seemed a bit premature to me, and I wanted to see if there were any underlying reasons for her to do so.

1. 'Lean town on both of them' : this is not what I gathered from her post.

2. Surely if you had wanted to see if there were any underlying reason to her bringing forth the meta, the easiest way to do it would have been to verify her say by meta-ing her? Because if she is scum, wouldn't you expect her to lie?

Alright, I apologize for missing the beginning of this game. I forgot to look for the thread and was waiting for a PM saying the game has started, after confirming, which never came.

Have all of your previous games been modded by mods who send PM's out when the game begins?

Same questions as above.

This was a more minor personal question for me that probably nobody else in the world would use to try and figure out someone's alignment, but I sometimes rely on little questions like this to formulate reads.

Scum can talk during pre-game, correct? Therefore his reference to not receiving a PM to know when the game had started could have been seen as weakly pro-town since, if he was scum, he and his scum buddies might have been going back and forth a bit in conversation before game and might have nudged one another about the game's opening. I wanted to see if his comment was sincere. Obviously I wouldn't base my read of fuzzylightning completely off of this, but I thought it was a small avenue worth probing a bit.

I don't see the connection between the question you asked and the answer you provided.

How can you determine if his comment was sincere by asking him about previous games? Again, if he is scum, don't you expect him to lie? And what is the connection between him possibly talking back and forth as scum before the gamestart and the question you asked?

2. A weak vote on sthar, it doesn't convey a sense of suspicions, but rather annoyance at sthar answering in other's stead. When sthar answers, Incognito seems to be satisfied with sthar's response as indicated by post addressing Raggin Rabit, yet vote still on sthar.

Tell me Incognito, what do you think of sthar exactly? Was your vote meaningful in anyway in the first place?

I have a slight meta on sthar8 as I just finished moderating a game in which he was scum in. I thought he played fairly well in that game, and I do have respect for his scum play, so I wanted to place a bit of pressure on him to try and get a better read of him. I thought he kinda skated by a bit in that game particularly on Day 1 as nobody seemed to really place much pressure on him until later on in the game during Day 2. Therefore, I figured that by placing a pressure vote on him early even for more minute reasons I would be able to draw more information out of him and not allow him to skate on by. Plus his answering of posts directed at other people has the potential to lessen the information we can draw from their responses since they could just copy or formulate their response around his own response thereby making any response they do put forward a null tell. I wanted to nip that type of "answering posts directed at other people" thing in the bud immediately.

As for what I think of him: I thought his reaction to my vote was weakly pro-town as he admitted to doing something wrong and didn't try to make up some strange answer about why he was doing what I called him out on which is what I would expect scum to do, but other than that, a majority of his posts have seemed to mainly focus on game mechanics which results in a non-read for me. Having non-reads on people makes Incognito very, very unhappy.

I can accept your reason to want to pressure sthar, but I think your behavior is not very offensive at all and is in contradiction with your stated intentions which is to pressure him.

3. A prod within the first 3 pages, wtf.

And that's wrong because...?

Posting prod very shortly after the game have started is scummy because it serves nothing as the player in question may just not have had the occasion to post yet. However, I will concede this point, upon further verification, you posted the prod 3 days after game start, which is a short-ish delay but acceptable for a prod. In my recollection, it happened earlier.

Incognito, I think you very much resemble scum trying to look busy, what do you think?

Cute. Very cute.

What is the meaning of this? Do I detect dismissal?

Some of your points seem like a bit of a stretch to me, which is a bit bothersome. I'll try and take it as a slight pro-town sign that you've called me of all people out on certain things when I've pretty much had absolutely nothing directed at me and have been finding myself trying to create my own content to get involved in. But yeah, there ya go.

Why 'try and take it'? I'm not asking you for any favor. If you think some of my point are stretching, please indicates which and why.

Oh and btw, Skillit has now reached L-2. I think sthar8, Electra, and to a lesser extent TDC should at least justify why they feel their votes are on the best wagon at this current time. I know Electra in particular mentioned that she doesn't think Skillit is scum, but she still hasn't removed her vote from him (hey,

springlullaby,

what do you think about that?) and sthar8 mentioned that he's liking the result of his random vote but hasn't really elaborated on his thoughts regarding the points that have been brought up against Skillit. TDC touched on a more minor point about Skillit's backtracking but hasn't engaged in conversation with him or commented on whether he thinks Skillit really was joking around or not.

To answer the part addressed to me, I don't see where Electra said she doesn't think Skillit is scum.

Skillit, I don't care about the joke. I want to know why you made an attack on Electra in #21 and later you said that whole thing was just for clarification, and you didn't mean to provide any slant on Electra. (#44)

FOS Crazy, I don't like this. But I'll let Skillit answer fist before saying why.

Right now, I stand by my opinion that Incognito has been trying to look busy while contributing nothing of import to the game.

I also am opposed to boost on Incognito, and Crazy.

[springlullaby]

EBWOP, bolded mine in above quotes.

[springlullaby]

Glad to see you getting more involved now, springlullaby. I almost forgot you were even in this game. Addressing your points.

I do not like the passive-aggressiveness of this, I post when I have something to say, and posting a lot doesn't make you town the same way as posting less doesn't make you scum. What matters is the content. Agree/disagree?

I don't think I was being passive-aggressive at all. A tad sarcastic maybe but not passive-aggressive. I agree that post number has no correlation with whether or not someone is pro-town or pro-scum but that wasn't the point I was getting at. The point of my comment was more in reference to how the content that you

did

put forward before you decided to come forward against me wasn't all that impressive, and I was eagerly anticipating your real entrance to the game. In fact, before you came in with your "case" against me, I was actually tempted to switch my vote to you for lurking.

By making the above bolded comment, you seem to be implying that the little you put forward within that first post of yours before my comment was good content. Do you really think your own post 52 really amounted to much? You pretty much regurgitated what everyone else said about Electra without really delving into why you felt this way (I even asked you to go into this further here) and then you voted for TDC for the vaguest of reasons. If you feel like post 52 amounted to a good amount, I'd like you to explain why.

I did not intend to allude that my posts were good content or otherwise, but rather to imply that yours sucked despite you posting a lot.

As far as the quality of my posting goes I'll let others judge, but by that post I expressed the points I wanted to make at the time: my sentiment toward Electra, my view of skillet, and a vote on TDC.

Btw, to answer your question Incognito, I think Electra's post comes from town because I read her as town and think the odds for a scum gambit are low. What do

you

think of Electra?

I didn't know what to think of Electra's page 1 claim at first. If it had come from a raw Newbie, I might have checked him or her off as obvtown for it. However, Electra has been on this site for quite some time now, and while I agree that the odds of scum making a gambit like that are low, I think it's still plausible for scum to do it, especially experienced scum. I thought eldarad's rather astute observation that he made

at the bottom of this post

was probably the best reason put forward by anyone to believe Electra might just be town here. I didn't think the assumption that scum probably wouldn't do such a thing on page 1 was powerful enough a reason to check her off as obvtown like everyone else seemed to do, so I preferred to reserve my opinion of her until I saw more content come from her. So to answer your question, as of right now, I'm leaning pro-town on Electra not based on the assumption that scum probably wouldn't do what she did but more based on what eldarad mentioned and her additional contribution to the game.

I do not like this answer as I note here that you have to appeal to a reason provided by another person to form an opinion on Electra.

Not trying to get semantic but "appeal" is an interesting choice of words. I don't think I was appealing to anything. I read eldarad's thoughts about Electra's early claim, thought about it on my own, and decided to

agree

with what he had mentioned. And as far as I'm concerned, there's nothing wrong with thinking logically about something someone else has written and agreeing with it, especially when coupling those thoughts with additional in-thread evidence from the person you're analyzing and formulating your own thoughts about it. As I mentioned above, I didn't really like everyone else's reasons for suggesting that Electra was obvtown, and I was choosing to reserve judgment until she posted more, thereby allowing me to get a better read of her. I even mentioned in the above quote that you quoted that the other reason I thought Electra might be more likely pro-town as opposed to pro-scum was because of her additional contribution. Did you miss that part?

You'll have to explain what you are alluding at with your 'appeal is an interesting choice of words' because I do not see where you are getting at. As far as I am concerned, it is a direct translation of the french expression 'faire appel à', which is to say, you had to use another's argument to form your opinion of Electra. I think this is scummy because I know why I think Electra is town, and it has little to do with what eldarad said.

I didn't miss anything, and I'll note here that in your many words you are sidestepping the original point I made which was that your reluctance to express an opinion on Electra for so long is scummy IMO.

Do you think that it is a good point?

Um, yeah, this is such weighted bombast. I've been

trying

to hunt scum. I didn't like the initial route the discussion took since it seemed to focus purely on the game mechanics which seems more theoretical to me. I think it's

extremely

easy for scum to hide in that type of discussion since it focuses more on information rather than analysis and leaves people reading completely neutral. I prefer asking questions directly to people and engaging in conversation by analyzing posts and eventually formulating gut reads. In my opinion, theory discussion is very unlikely to reveal much about a person's alignment, so the sooner we could move away from it, the better.

You are saying here that you prefer reserving judment before commiting to anything, well let me tell you that I think 8 out of 10 persons who prefer to reserve judment are scum because 1)it is hader for them to form an opinion in the first place2)they want to keep all options open the longer possible, especially if they do not indicate their initail read at all, which is your case.

What do you think?

Where did I say anything about reserving judgment in that quote you posted? I was talking about scum hunting and how I felt a large portion of the conversation early on was purely theoretical, which allows for easy scum hiding and how I wanted to move away from exactly that type of discussion ASAP. I specifically mentioned that theory discussion states very little about a person's alignment and how I'd rather engage in conversation with people to figure out where they're coming from.

And who are you, the Neils Bohr of Mafia or something? Have you been running statistical analysis to come forward with these numbers, or are you just pulling them out of your ass to help add even more weighted bombast to an already weak case? Have you considered that it's usually a good idea to reserve judgment on people because it's, oh, I don't know, a bad thing when you find yourself running up on someone who ends up being innocent? Is it abnormal for someone to not know who exactly is scum on page fucking 4 of the thread and who is instead choosing to use this early time to try and figure people out?

1. This is a misshaps on quoting, the point I made there address you expressively saying that you wanted to reserve judment on Electra in your prior paragraph.

2. Are you kidding me? Were did I ever suggest that my numbers were statistical? Look at how I formulated that and come again, I expressly wrote 'I think'. Those numbers are rough estimate based on my experience, and it means to convey that I think the vast majority of people who like to 'reserve judgment' are scum. Are you deliberately misrepresenting me here?

3. You are again entirely sidestepping the issue, I'll ask you again: I think the vast majority of persons who prefer to reserve judment are scum because 1)it is hader for them to form an opinion in the first place2)they want to keep all options open the longer possible, especially if they do not indicate their initail read at all, which is your case. What do you think?

4. Wtf with the 'it's bad to run up on someone who ends up being innocent'. a) Are you suggesting that you won't make cases because of the off-risk that the people may be innocent? Well, welcome to being town, from my perspective there is always a possibility of you being innocent but I'm still making a case against you because : b) Cases don't make themselves, and in absense of cases, there is no possibility of determining people's alignment.

And yes, you are requited to express suspicions on page fucking 4, it is the fucking point of the game. What would you rather have? 4 other pages of inane blatter about mohinder suresh and 'pressure votes' on people who answer question for others?

I think this paragraph is full of bullshit, it looks good on paper for presenting vaguely himself as a steady and 'réflechi' character, but in reality it is a fucking fail inadequate justification for his passive play. I may have accepted the passive outlook on the game from someone less experienced who may have anxiety about being wrong, but from someone who has been on the site for one year it is unacceptable and it screams scum to me.

Eh? All of my questions have been very relevant to the game, and I certainly wouldn't classify them as "'soft' questions" either. Just because I don't immediately reveal my insights from the answers I get doesn't mean that I haven't formulated any opinions on them. When I'm ready to make a case against someone who I think is scum, I'll do so but certainly not this early in the game. Trust me, when I have a scum read on someone I'll make my opinion on the person blatantly obvious. Right now, this is purely the information-gathering stage for me. I've seen certain things from people that make me lean slightly town on them or slightly scum but not enough to come to a definitive answer with respect to their alignments.

Does the post you linked have a relevance to the present game at all?

As for your 'info-gathering stage' see above.

I posted that link because I

think

one of the points of your "case" against me focused on how I didn't immediately reveal my own thoughts with respect to the answers I received to my own questions and how you supposedly perceived this as scummy because I wasn't revealing my own insight with respect to my position on the other players' alignments. I was using that link to show you that when I'm ready to make my thoughts clear on why I think a particular person is scum, I'll do it in typical Incog-fashion by posting a well-elaborated, thoughtful case against said person. I haven't garnered enough information from this game yet to do so though obviously.

You are not explaining how your link have any relevance to the game at hand. What is the relevance behind saying, 'I'll make a case when I'm ready, look at the good case I made in that other game!' ?

And in respect to that game you linked and in which you were town, I notice with great interest that you were a lot less full of bullshit question, and much more confrontational and generous with your opinion starting day 1.

2. Surely if you had wanted to see if there were any underlying reason to her bringing forth the meta, the easiest way to do it would have been to verify her say by meta-ing her? Because if she is scum, wouldn't you expect her to lie?

In response to your first question: Um, no? How could I possibly determine if there were any underlying reasons for her citing meta in this particular game for two people in particular by... actually going forth and meta-ing her? Are you suggesting that people's alignments from previous games carry over or something?

In response to your second question: Yes, you would expect scum to lie about things, but by asking questions to people you can pick up on inconsistencies, check back on things to see if they jibe with what said person is saying, and determine if the person is being sincere or not. How exactly do you expect to find scum if you don't ask people questions? Do we twiddle our thumbs and hope that the scum come forward saying "HI I'M SCUM! LYNCH ME!"

And do you even realize how little sense you're making right now? You've adamantly stated that you think I'm scum, but yet, (DEEP BREATH), you're asking ME of all people questions! OMG! IMAGINE THAT! Aren't you afraid that I'm lying right now?

This paragraph is bullshit too, and it twists the point I made to make it look ridiculous.

I never said that you were wrong in asking people questions, I called your questions bullshit.

To quote, these are the questions I called BS on:

@Electra:

Are sthar8 and Skillit the only two people in this game who you have metas on?

Have all of your previous games been modded by mods who send PM's out when the game begins?

The difference between your bullshit questions and my questioning is that your question are simple yes/no questions. All you had to do to find the anwers to them was to meta Electra and skillit to find out the answer yourself if you were really interested. Yet you choose to ask them, so I ask you, don't you expect scum to lie?

This was a more minor personal question for me that probably nobody else in the world would use to try and figure out someone's alignment, but I sometimes rely on little questions like this to formulate reads.

Scum can talk during pre-game, correct? Therefore his reference to not receiving a PM to know when the game had started could have been seen as weakly pro-town since, if he was scum, he and his scum buddies might have been going back and forth a bit in conversation before game and might have nudged one another about the game's opening. I wanted to see if his comment was sincere. Obviously I wouldn't base my read of fuzzylightning completely off of this, but I thought it was a small avenue worth probing a bit.

I don't see the connection between the question you asked and the answer you provided.

How can you determine if his comment was sincere by asking him about previous games? Again, if he is scum, don't you expect him to lie? And what is the connection between him possibly talking back and forth as scum before the gamestart and the question you asked?

springlullaby, how could he possibly know the intention of my question to be able to know whether or not to lie about his answer when I didn't even specifically mention why I asked him about it until you questioned me about my own question's intent? If you yourself have expressed this inability to understand the true point of my own question, do you think

he

would have been able to understand my reason for asking and would know which answer he should give as a hypothetical scum to deceive me? And again, you seem to be completely oblivious to the fact that you are completely contradicting your own points by repeatedly asking me questions when, if your suspicion of me is truly genuine, you probably think I would lie about my answers since you think I'm scum.

As for the connection between gamestart and the question I asked, think harder about that one and maybe it'll come to you.

Huh, you use a lot of words, but I see no answers to my questions. I'm sorry you'll have to spell it out to me because you see, I'm dumb.

I can accept your reason to want to pressure sthar, but I think your behavior is not very offensive at all and is in contradiction with your stated intentions which is to pressure him.

Really? Why's that? I think I've been aggressively trying to scum hunt so far actually.

That is not my impression, and you are answering beside the point. You say that your vote on sthar was a pressure vote:
1. I don't think the post in which you voted for him was very aggresive at all.
2. You defend him in the directly following post you made.

So yes, I see no aggressivness here.

Cute. Very cute.

What is the meaning of this? Do I detect dismissal?

Superfluous questions receive ridiculous answers from me. Your question was a superfluous question.

Some of your points seem like a bit of a stretch to me, which is a bit bothersome. I'll try and take it as a slight pro-town sign that you've called me of all people out on certain things when I've pretty much had absolutely nothing directed at me and have been finding myself trying to create my own content to get involved in. But yeah, there ya go.

Why 'try and take it'? I'm not asking you for any favor. If you think some of my point are stretching, please indicates which and why.

I did. I specifically referred to one of your points as "weighted bombast", I specifically mentioned that I am scum hunting and asking relevant questions rather than "asking 'soft' questions that are irrelevant to the game". If that's not pointing out that your points are a bit of a stretch, then I don't know what is.

And I'm trying to take it as a positive sign because I know that my immediate impression from your attack on me is that it's slightly scummy for stretching the truth the way you have. Instead of immediately jumping to conclusions about your alignment, I'll continue trying to engage in conversation with you to see if you genuinely believe the points you're raising against me or if they're merely contrived and created to paint me in a bad light. Usually when someone makes a case against me, I can sometimes see where the person is coming from and why the person might think something I mentioned gave them a bad vibe. But with you, I really can't see that, and I'm becoming more and more curious about what your alignment really could be.

Let me tell you that I am 100% serious in all the accusation I made, and that I think they are good points too. And I certainly don't think you have been aggressive at all. You thinking otherwise make you look more scummy to me.

[springlullaby]

I may be wrong on this but my leaning is that Skillit's 'odd post' wasn't an attack - see him mentioning the joke at the end of the post; this is a judment call, mine.

If it was just your judgement, how can you call other people scummy for having a different judgement?

I didn't see enough to find skillit scumy, hence opinions diverging from mine is potentially scummy, although not definitively scummy.

[springlullaby]

I made only 3 posts so far, if you can't bother to read them, don't count on me to babysit you by repeating myself. If you think that my point doesn't diverge from Skillit's, you point out how it is the case.

In your second post you certainly appear to believe that you are agreeing with Skillit. In your third post, you retract that agreement. Since you hadn't added any content in between, the change must have been in your thought process - that had not been posted in-thread.
Either Skillit made a good point, or he didn't. Can you clarify your opinion on that please?

This is my view of skillit in the second post I made:

What skillet said seems superficial but on second thought I think it makes a good point, it's good to keep in mind that mafia may have abilities that are independent from boost to avoid reasonings based on wrong basis - ie: "X can't be responsible of action XXXX because X hasn't been boosted".

Upon further reexamination of skillit, I noticed that it wasn't exactly what skillit was saying and said so in my third post.

[springlullaby]

[quote="Incognito"]
While I'd like to keep the pressure on sthar8 a bit longer as I still feel like he could be contributing a bit more (yes, yes I know he's mentioned that he's sick), I really do find myself most troubled with springlullaby's attack against me and am having a hard time believing it could be coming from town. I've been attacked before in past games, and I feel like I can usually understand what the person who's attacking me for has a problem with and can usually tell when an attack against me is a bit misguided. I've reread the thread a number of times and did a focused read on myself to see if I can genuinely find myself agreeing with the points springlullaby raised against me, and I just can't. I felt like a lot of the points she raised against me were very strongly exaggerated. Examples include the following:

Lol, is that a 100 words paragraph to announce a vote against me? Do you fear looking OMGUS-y. See my last post addressing you. I just plain dislike the obsequiousness of this paragraph. For the rest see my last post addressing you.

[springlullaby]

I'm gonna try to be brief here. This is getting ridiculous.

Man, I hate the implied dismissal in this.

Re: my posts sucked. I really don't see what's been so sucky about my posts. I'll note here that you're not even using rational analysis here to explain why it is they've been sucky. You've now pretty much resorted to personal insults which still say absolutely nothing and are actually quite scummy. Thanks for making me feel great about my vote on you.

And thank you for attacking me on words blatantly isolated from its context, it does make me even more convinced you are scum. Tell me, what have I been doing in my last couple of posts if not explaining why I think your posts sucked?
---------------------------------------------

Re: "appealing" to someone else's opinion about Electra. How many times do I need to rehash this point?

I didn't have to decide immediately about my opinion on her.

I fail to see how this is scummy. And when I did eventually voice my opinion about her, I stated in as much detail as I could as to why I felt that way. I thought eldarad pointed something out about Electra's role claim that made sense, and I simply agreed with it. I read through Electra's posts on my own following her claim and began to like her contribution to the game. I was not going to check her off as town like everyone else did just because of a ridiculous assumption of "scum are unlikely to make a gambit like that on page 1". I've already explained why I was unwilling to accept that as a valid enough reason to feel like she's town because of it.

This is plausible rationalization, you may just be a wussy player who think that to never be caught changing your mind is more important than expressing your stances on issues, only I don't believe you.

You see, you were

never

upfront with your doubts, and there is no reason for a townie to not come out and say 'hmm, dunno'.

And you see, you expressly asked me why I thought Electra was town while being still unpronounced yourself and I believe that what you were doing there was trying to gauge the situation and see if there was an obviously protown reason people were thinking Electra was town before pronouncing yourself.

Here I fully expect you to attack me on calling you a wuss while refusing to consider my point.

Re: your 8 out of 10 thing. If the point that you were trying to make was that the majority of people who choose to reserve judgment about someone are scum like you claim, then that's all you had to say. I can't see myself believing that though. There must have been a significance to you referencing those numbers, and I think you pulled those numbers out the way you did to try and strengthen your already flimsy case against me. Either way, I'd like you to show me specific examples from your supposedly vast experience where you've seen scum reserve judgment about people more often than town. Gogogo!

1. Your speculation is wrong.

2. There is only one game in which an early gambit was formed that I have played in, it has been very relevant in forming my opinion but it is still ongoing.

3. Where did I ever suggest that my experience was vast or otherwise? My views are based on my experience as it is and I provide it freely, and people are at liberty to agree or disagree with me. I do not like the fact that you make it appears as if I have claimed to be an authority on the subject. Are you purposefully skewing your representation of me?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

As to what I think? I obviously think you're incorrect. You might have a point here if I was just checking in every once in awhile with a one sentence or one word post here and there and not contributing anything at all and then out of nowhere, I jumped in and started attacking someone after I got a feel for how the game was going. But I haven't done that. I've been contributing where appropriate, and my suspicions have followed along with my thought process. For example, I questioned Skillit about a bunch of his early posts because I noticed a number of inconsistencies in what he was saying but never voted for him because I, for the most part, bought his explanation. Do I need to outright say this and make it completely public? No, I don't think I do. There are plenty of pro-town reasons to withhold information that, you guessed it, I won't go into.

1. The way I see your discussion with skillit is yet another instance of you being undetermined, you seem to be vaguely suspicious of him by asking him lot of questions, but yet you choose to vote sthar. This is a major strike against you.

2. I call bullshit on your last sentence, please do expose your 'pro-town reason to whithhold information' because I highly suspect you of being nothing but appearance and no substance.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In point number 4, deliberate or not, you're strawmanning me. I never said that I won't make cases against people because I'm afraid I'll be wrong and ring up a townie. In fact, I can cite numerous examples from my experience where I've made large cases against people, gotten them lynched, and ended up being quite wrong. I was saying that during early game, there's absolutely nothing wrong with a pro-town player reserving judgment about a player until said pro-town player receives enough information to feel comfortable with his or her suspicions. In fact, reserving judgment and not jumping to conclusions is more likely to leave a pro-town player with a more satisfying result. I can even make an argument that many scum players oftentimes

won't

reserve judgment about players because they don't want to give these players the benefit of the doubt and want to get those players lynched ASAP. Do you agree with this or not?

1. With your question here you are turning the point around. I 100% agree that keeping a clear view and giving the benefit of the doubt to a player you are suspicious of is necessary. But tell me, where did I say otherwise and how is it relevant to the discussion at hand?

2. Re 'want to get those players lynched ASAP': agreed. But tell me again, how it is relevant to the discussion at hand?

3. There is something problematic and a kind of shifting POV in what you have been saying so let me straighten the discussions and make my stance clear.

a)
You say: There is nothing wrong in my reserving judment on Electra.
My opinion: I disagree, I think it is scummy, see above.

b)
You say: "Have you considered that it's usually a good idea to reserve judgment on people because it's, oh, I don't know, a bad thing when you find yourself running up on someone who ends up being innocent? Is it abnormal for someone to not know who exactly is scum on page fucking 4 of the thread and who is instead choosing to use this early time to try and figure people out?" - actual quote.
My opinion: Fuck you, if you are town you are required to be pro-active.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: bullshit questions. I've already explained the significance of those questions. I still stand by them being game-related and not bullshit. Simple as that. And you still ask the question of "don't you expect scum to lie?" but still seem completely oblivious to your own contradiction.

Again I already explained the difference between your bullshit questions and mine. Yes I expect scum to lie, but my question aren't question that are verifiable and I have no other mean but to ask them so I can gauge your answers.

Your questions on the others hand were simple yes/no question you could have verified by yourself without asking them.

I'm quoting them again because you have yet to provide me with an answer and this is a major strike against you:

@Electra: Are sthar8 and Skillit the only two people in this game who you have metas on?

Why didn't you directly verify Electra's meta? Don't you expect her to lie to you if she were scum? I see this as a complete bullshit question.

Then:

Have all of your previous games been modded by mods who send PM's out when the game begins?

Question which you explained with:

I have a slight meta on sthar8 as I just finished moderating a game in which he was scum in. I thought he played fairly well in that game, and I do have respect for his scum play, so I wanted to place a bit of pressure on him to try and get a better read of him. I thought he kinda skated by a bit in that game particularly on Day 1 as nobody seemed to really place much pressure on him until later on in the game during Day 2. Therefore, I figured that by placing a pressure vote on him early even for more minute reasons I would be able to draw more information out of him and not allow him to skate on by. Plus his answering of posts directed at other people has the potential to lessen the information we can draw from their responses since they could just copy or formulate their response around his own response thereby making any response they do put forward a null tell. I wanted to nip that type of "answering posts directed at other people" thing in the bud immediately.

I see zero relevance in your explanation.

Re: vote on sthar8. [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 60#1322360]I didn't defend him.

Okay, I overstated it, you merely implied that you were not in accord with another's suspicion of him, right after you voted for him.

But that is miles away from my original point which is: you say you 'pressured' sthar aggressively. I say bullshit, there wasn't even an hint of teeth behind your vote.

-----------------------------------------------------

Reducing my case against you to OMGUS. I figured you'd end up doing that.
Still cool with my vote.

Saying that I'm reducing your case to OMGUS, I figured you'd end up doing that. 1)Where did I accuse you of OMGUS 2)Tell me, what point of your case have I not answered in my prior reply to you?

I've got a huge 'how dare you suspect me' vibe from you, and I'm not digging it. I'll tell you again that I'm 100% serious in all the accusation I made.

[springlullaby]

The "why are you asking scum questions since they're going to lie" thing is stupid, and sl's refusal to accept that once it was pointed out to her.

I never said what your paraphrase makes me say, I said that two of his questions specifically were bullshit because he could have found out the answer by himself, and indeed it is what I would have expected from a protown player, instead he choose to ask them, leading me to ask him "Why didn't you verify these by yourself? Don't you expect scum to lie?".

You paraphrasing blatantlys take things out of context. READ AGAIN.

[springlullaby]

Could you explain how this is indictive of scum alignment?

Maybe we should ask springlullaby how it is indicative of scum alignment in Incog, but not in Crazy?
Her repeated agreement with me without any additional input herself makes we wary. The overall lack of content (until her recent scumdar) also doesn't sit well with me.
I also think that, given springlullaby's avoidance of Crazy when she was scumhunting, it looks like there is some link between them - ie I think there is a possibility that they are scumbuddies.
Hence lynching Crazy will also give us a decent steer on sl's alignment.[/quote]

I haven't been avoiding Crazy as much as I have been concentrating on Incognito. By your reasoning, half the people in this game could be linked to me.

As for your question (next time ask me directly, lest I miss it), there is a confluence of elements that make me think Incognito is scummy, more so than Crazy. I recall I didn't like something he did, but I forgot what. I'll do a general reading of the game once Incog has answered me, I'm pretty curious as what he is going to do next.

[springlullaby]

EBWOP messed up tag, quote from eldarad

[springlullaby]

You answer everyone of my points first. Kthx.

[springlullaby]

::rolls::

Then why should I pay you the respect of acquiescing to your request?

I'll do a general reread of the game next time I visit this thread, I've had enough of it for one day.

[springlullaby]

Man, if you are faking the taking offence thing, and I was right about you, I will hate you forever. Plus, you started it.

Unvote

And you are wrong, I'm town.

[springlullaby]

Cute. Very cute.

[springlullaby]

[springlullaby]

SL - why is incog taking offence a sign of him being town? Are scum less emotionally invested in the game?

He refused answering my post, which under normal circumstance I would see as scummy, except if he were really offended which could be seem as a mitigating circumstance.

Plus, my unvote is part hesitancy part penance, because I do recognize that, even though I expect tougher skin from players and think that Incog has been more than once been patronizing and toeing the line of demeaning, I have been stupid to not maintain my cool and cross the line to overt insult. He called me on it, it is his right.

I have reread the game, I'm on Skillit scum with Incognito. I'll post why I think so when I work up the energy to do so.

[springlullaby]

Incognito, let's make a deal first.

I give you my word that from now on I'll stop using insults when addressing you, and you give me your word that you will refrain to the best of your ability from being patronizing and from making doubtful remarks.

If we can't reach that agreement, I will present my apologies to the mod and the players present, and ask for replacement.

It is not that you have been extraordinarily insufferable, and I certainly was wrong for getting mad, but for some reason you just upset me beyond what I can tolerate without blinking, and there would be no point in my not quitting right now only to continue and potentially ruins the game for everyone if you plan on keeping at it.

Your call.

[springlullaby]

Oh my, this is embarrassing, I actually wish I could invoke some game related excuse to justify my play in this game and specifically my last post, but as it is there is no way for me to get out of this graciously.

The only thing I can say is that bad days and lack of sleep aren't propitious to keeping a clear head in mafia.

I have reread myself and am quite embarrassed:

1. My last post is overly dramatic without reason.

2. My accusing you, Incognito, for my getting angry is pretty much entirely irrational. I'm sorry. I should have kept myself in check and my personal foul mood out of the game, and that's it. I really do appreciate the fact that you actually offered apologies when you needn't have. Thank you.

Right now I can only offer my apologies to everyone for shitting up the thread and for needless drama. It's just, you know, really bad days and a convergence of things.

So yeah, really really sorry. I promise it is the first time I have blown up like that in a game and am really embarrassed. In the interest of not ruining the game further, can we just, you know 'move along, nothing to see'.

Please?

[springlullaby]

Skillit-Incognito scumpair.

INCOGNITO

I have thought about rewriting my case on him, but I decided to let it stand as it is because, even though I recognize that a lot of my points were badly formulated to the point of being easily turn-able into derision, I think it projects a strong picture d'ensemble of what a conjectural scum might do. Beside, I'm just too lazy.

A couple of additional remarks and better explanations of my views, though.

1. There is no perfect case, especially on day 1, and in mafia you could pretty much dismiss anything by virtue of giving the benefit of the doubt if you were thus inclined. But thing is, you've got to make the leap somewhere, somehow, if you want to move things along. That is why in essence the 'reserving judgement being protown' argument is in my view not a good defence.

In addition, I think that wanting to reserve judgement hints heavily at self-preservation being a big motivation in one's play. In clear, I think Incognito has been sending up 'I may be blue' warning signs to town but you see, I do not think there is a role in this game that warrants such a strongly hinted at subtext beside scum.

2. I do see a pattern of OMGUS in Incognito's play. When left 'unattended' you can see him going about what I see as asking an endless stream of questions with no perspective in sight. But he does comes alive when directly under fire, putting my case on him aside, see his reaction to iLord.

This combined with his inability to formulate an original view of anything, makes me think he is a pretty good picture of reactive scum play.



SKILLIT

11. First reaction, Mohinder Suresh - vaguely scummy, not because 'assuming E is town' but because I have undisclosable meta on this.
21. Nitpickin Electra
22. explain mohinder
24. joke
27. long explanation for nitpicking - convoluted but neutral
34. doesn't admit reaching, - neutral
45. Doesn't reach conclusion about Electra - explanation neutral; BOOST INCOGNITO for lame reason
57. explains pun
86. repeats was joke, 'or something else?'?, thinks people blowing this way too far, people should entertain the possibility that they are wrong - plausible defence
106. seems to indicate suspicions about sthar and RR, but nothing strong

Isolated, there isn't really much to comment on about skillit's play other than him having been pretty much posting exclusively explanations for his 'odd' thing - this is not very scummy in itself since he was under attack and I do hold to my view that the excuses he gave were plausible enough. What is more telling is imo is the way in which, after the earlier bout of attention he received, he has pretty much vanished from the game and has yet to reveal any strong view on the game - this I think is scummy, lying low after being exposed in the spotlight too much scummy.

However it is not a strong indication in itself, because sometimes town does the lying low thing too.

What I'm going to point out now does depend heavily on my view of Incognito and may easily be accused of being tunnel-vision, and maybe it is but I don't think so and I think it has intrinsic value as exploration of scummy interaction.

Incognito has a history of needling at skillit:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 21#1317821
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 08#1317908
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 50#1319450
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 50#1319450
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 76#1320576
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 93#1320593

Yet, he has never expressed a very strong stance on what he thinks of him. Instead, he chose to vote sthar in a time where he was still engaged in conversation with skillit. I think that this interaction isn't genuine. What motivates Incognito to not cast a vote on skillit since he is questioning him and seems suspicious of him?

Later, there is a post from Incognito signalling that skillit is at L-2.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 85#1324185

This post is peculiar because what it does is asking for people to justify their vote on skillit, while he himself has made no commitment as to his thought on skillit's alignment - note here that this imo is in itself is a display of scumminess from Incognito, I will also further speculate that what happened there is that Incognito was been sly and he was defending skillit without seeming to, I acknowledge however that the last is a judgement call.

And to conclude, I'd like to point to skillit's boosting Incognito for absolutely lame reason. It does feel like a piece of a puzzle just failing into place, doesn't it?

Now, as I already said, I am aware that my case has a danger of being tunnel-vision, but you gotta admit that the confluence of facts are pretty compelling. And I think tunnel vision is very often an overrated bogeyman anyway.


So, my main suspect is still Incognito, but I'm also available for a skillit lynch.

Vote Incognito

[springlullaby]

I'll post next in details my thoughts on the rest of the players, I think iLord is town.

[springlullaby]

iLord so does not read like scum, I oppose his lynch.

Beside, the notion that his 'coaching' me from the sideline is scummy is totally beyond me. It may have been scummy only if he didn't have a suspect of his own at the time and his case on RR was pretty passable.

Crazy is hard to say, I don't have any strong feeling concerning his play.

Sthar, Electra, any chance I can I convince you guys to vote Incognito? I really think he is scum.

Eldarad, what do you think of me exactly? You been saying stuff like you think my being pissed off was fake, only I don't see you voting for me, so yes, what do you think exactly?

[springlullaby]

Huh, I'm very tempted to respond flippantly but I'll be reasonable and simply note that what you are doing here is trying to reduce the entire case I have posted against you to one little puny point.

And, my answer is, these point are actually strikes against iLord, but his overall play is much more town than yours.

[springlullaby]

Do you have a problem with that?

[springlullaby]

And I am trying figure out, nay, point out how much everything you post is superficial and skewed.

1. I reproached you your unwillingness to pronounce yourself concerning Electra, formulating that your behaviour was scum not knowing what to think, and that your appeal to eldarad furthered my thinking that it was the case. iLord is not guilty of the first, in the first place.

2. I just explained how there is no inconsistency in the first place, but look at yourself still maintaining that there is without being able to refute me.

3. Inconsistency in people's play happen to be my favourite argument...when I'm scum.

4. Lol, I so want you lynched.
.

[springlullaby]

Incognito, if you think I am scum, why aren't you voting for me?

[springlullaby]

Incognito, if you think I am scum, why aren't you voting for me?

You're kidding, right?

No I am not.

Anyway.

Mod: Please replace me too, sorry.

[springlullaby]

Why are you requesting replacement?

To be at liberty to say FUCK YOU and your disgusting little comments.

I've been gracious enough to attempt to put the whole thing behind, going as far as dismissing everything on my being in a foul mood, but you had to bring it up again.

Man who are you to judge what should or shouldn't pisses me off, you're the one to act all put upon just because I said FUCK YOU.