Mini 697: Prisoner's Dilemma Mafia {Game Over!}

[RedCoyote]

/confirm

[RedCoyote]

Sorry to throw a monkey wrench into what would otherwise be a pretty logical plan, but how are the jailed people going to investigate each other? I mean, unless the power is carried over to N2 and THEN we have to jail two different people or else they couldn't investigate (they'd be in jail) right?

5. While imprisoned, those players cannot target others and cannot be targeted by others.

I think the plan was great thinking, but I cannot support it. This in addition to the Godfather, a possible Cultist role, a possible Lyncher role... any number of third party roles could mess up this "trust the original two jailed players with the key to the city" idea.

(Now I'll take this all back if someone can convince me the plan is still valid, but, in my opinion, it's been shot to pieces. There are two many variables, at least at this stage, to make it worthwhile.)

No, I think we need to consider good ol' fashioned scumhunting, and try our best to lock up mafia.

I think our biggest worry should be jailing scum who get powers the next day. We really want to avoid that, at least for D2 and beyond.

First and foremost, we should get D1 out of the way NOW and see what happens at night. We need to know how many people die, we need to know if anyone claims any roles tomorrow, and we need to know whether or not the jailed pick yea or nay. I think the sooner we come to a concensus the better. I would not be against ending the day before the deadline even.

Send: Crazy
Send: TonyMontana

Yay for random lyn... jailing.

But I do think it may be a good idea to push whoever the jailed end up being to vote no regardless. I'm still batting this idea around in my head, because if I was on the hot seat I can't say that I wouldn't feel tempted to squeal. But for the time being I'm really thinking we need to see what happens N1.

That said, I'm open to other ideas.

[RedCoyote]

if anyone is actually sending someone they think is scum, I would like to know why they are doing so.

Just a general suspicion to throw out and make the town all nervous-like. I, personally, get a negative vibe off of OP. That's just a preliminary, "if I had to choose" kind of thing though.

I chose the two people I feel safest about at the moment.

If we go with the plan, I would want prisoners to check each others.

spring, did you read my post? This is what turned me against your plan to begin with. Not that I think you are delibrately trying to mess with the town or anything, but this is why I don't care for your plan. Unless the investigations take place during the day, they wouldn't be able to investigate each other because they are both jailed (refer to Rule 5).

---

Really people I think we need to focus on jailing townies who want a prison sentence and worry about planning tomorrow.

And someone brought up the idea of planning investigations before hand. That's a bad idea because I'm convinced there are NKs and if the mafia have any sort of framer-like role that can change the guilt/innocence of a person in an investigation we could be in serious trouble. Let the investigations be left the those in jail, the only bad thing that could happen is if they investigate the same person, which is improbable.

[RedCoyote]

They do take place during the day.

Hmmm, okay, in that case that would work.

I'm just going to throw this out there:

The original Prisoner's Dilemma was created by law enforcement to get criminals to confess (giving them a dominant strategy to choose Yes over No). Do you think that there might be some hidden penalty if we throw 2 scum into prison?
It would make sense in real life, since the method tries to get scum to confess. I'm thinking there is something the scum know about the setup of the interrogation that we don't, and that they really don't want to end up in prison together.

Your thoughts?

I don't understand. This would clearly help the scum because they know who it's their partner that's going in with them. If anything this is the worst scenario, because then both of the scum will get the benefits of a double "no" vote and completely throw this town into disarray.

[RedCoyote]

RedCoyote, are you faking it?

I'm sorry?

I was a bit confused I guess because in every mafia game I played (remember I'm still rather new here) cop investigations always took place at night. I had just assumed that if a person who was jailed were to receive any sort of power it would just be carried over to the next night

or

the same night but that it couldn't be used on themselves or the other jailed because they are immune from night actions.

Unless you're implying that I'm faking being town. Which I can assure you I am not.

[RedCoyote]

Trust me.

[RedCoyote]

Dammit, how can the police not recognize someone that breaks into their office?

Sigh. So we can pretty much assume that we don't have a town killing role, at least not one who shoots at night. This is the biggest disappointment.

I have a feeling there is more to this story than meets the eye. Either one of the scum's powers is the ability to break into jail, or OP is up to no good.

Just assume the latter for a second. If OP had chosen "Yes" and Crazy chose "No", what do you expect were to have happened?

Would the Mod have told us that one person ratted out the other during investigations? Or would that be kept a secret with a concoted story about a break in? The reason I bring this up is because Mod's rules only state that,

X (or Y) executed instantaneously.

Is the town intended to know if one of the jailers squealed or not?

OP, if you are town, and you chose yes, it would be much, much better for you to tell us now than to act ignorant. Because right now I'm thinking you are scum and because of your scumminess you had Crazy killed.

The obvious problem with this theory was that if this was OP's doing, where's the real NK?

I've still got some questions, but I don't think any of us should be too quick to write off OP as someone who is confused as we are.

[RedCoyote]

quote="TonyMontana"]If that kill wasn't a one-shot, then this game is broken. [/quote]

I agree one hundred percent. I've reread it as many times as I'd like to, and the only logical assumption I can make is that either scum used some sort of one-time power to confuse us, or there is a town role that has a one-time power (but God only knows why any town-sided role would confuse us like this).

If the people we send to jail are going to die every night, then we might as well just roll dice every night and play tic-tac-toe until the mafia kill us all. In other words, I'm considering this game officially broken if the mafia (or some third party) can completely ruin our seemingly only means of getting information.

This allegation is also quite weak because had I know what would happen, it wouldn't have been a smart move of me to propose a plan that was destined to fail and frame me the next day.

I brought some cheese for us to share whilst we sip from the wine you just put in front of me, hon.

XD

Seriously though, something tells me spring is ok. I'm personally going to need more of an argument than "she was trying to come up with a plan... the plan didn't work so she must be mafia".

I think we can agree that from now on, we only send suspicious felons to prison.

Then why are we voting Sly?

I don't know, it seems like everyone has their own ideas of what to do.

send: CarnCarn
send: SlySly

hehehe

[RedCoyote]

I'm personally going to need more of an argument than "she was trying to come up with a plan... the plan didn't work so she must be mafia".

We aren't lynching her. We're sending her to jail.

First of all, I still don't think we've come to a concensus as to whether or not jail is a bad thing.

Secondly, I was more addressing the mentality of you, Sly, and OP that spring's plan was a possible scum tactic. I'm just not convinced of that yet.

The only thing I'm going off of at the moment is that we don't want to be mixing scum and town in jail at the same time. I think we did that D1 and we all saw the results of that.

[RedCoyote]

First of all;

unsend: SlySly

.

I thought it would lighten the mood a bit to send the two double names, but it's time to put on the serious cap now.

Sly's recent post has been the best post in the game thus far. I think he pointed out something very suspicious about CarnCarn. I'm willing to go so far as to say this has really opened my eyes to seeing him as scum, or at least a dead ringer for one. This is CarnCarn's major defense:

I wanted to play along and not let the scum know I figured out a weakness early on?

So, CarnCarn, you wanted us to follow spring's plan...

Because the plan technically works, given time. I think springlullaby (sl) is town and the plan catches scum if they try to take out townies by faking guilties anyway.

...in order to fool the scum?

How does that make sense at all? How does letting the town struggle to comprehend the game when you know pertinent information about the very mechanics that are tripping us up help anyone

but

scum?

I didn't want to throw it out there too early because scum would realize I was on to something and change their early behavior.

That’s all well and good, but what has your “feigning ignorance” of the rules got us so far? I mean, how long would you have proposed to wait before telling us all you knew how it worked from the beginning?

---

My other scum pick is either DoS or ABR. In vein of Sly's post, I will lay out my problems with ABR a little more specifically (Sly's already covered all of what DoS has had to say thus far, literally).

Here are some examples of what ABR's major contributions:

I support this plan and its creator.

(in response to spring's plan)

Yeah sure.

(in response to an idea by iceman)

I want to go.

If you're going to send me, please specify whether you think I'm scum or town beforehand.

(in response to a question by Crazy)

I pledge to answer no to the question.

(in response to spring's request)

Why does Tony have so many votes?

(original content!)

I think we can agree that from now on, we only send suspicious felons to prison.

(original content!)

When you send someone, specify whether you find them scummy or not and for what reasons.

(basically repeating himself)

Makes sense.

Send: Spring

Send: orange

(in response to Seraphim's idea)

You are certainly right. OP, claim please?

(in response to CarnCarn's idea of getting OP to claim)

I'm not cherrypicking with these; I'm quoting entire posts.

I want to point out three things with ABR:

1.)

He never voted D1

, nor has he actually come out against someone aside from latching on to Seraphim's vote earlier (and that is even arguable as a real solid stance on who is scum).

2.) He pushed very, very hard to get jailed D1, and even went so far as to ask why other people were getting votes with the implication that he should be getting them.

3.) His contributions, and I've posted almost every contribution he's made, are almost always responses. The only pieces of original content I've found are him asking why TonyMontana was getting sent to jail, and him saying that only scum should be sent to prison.

Conveniently, and I'll admit this is more of a stretch allegation, I've noticed the interaction between CarnCarn and ABR has been seemingly artificial.

In any case, I still think DoS, OP, and to an extent Seraphim, aren't exactly the most town players here, but I think I'm comfortable with

sending: ABR

for the moment.


I'd also love to hear more from TonyMontana and humscunter.

Do you think humscunter may be coming close to a Mod prod

?

[RedCoyote]

My Day 2 Allegations: Chapter II

There is merit in your case SlySly.

Send CarnCarn

He must be purged from the town tonight.

(in response to Sly)

[RedCoyote]

AND, not to mention that, all the discussion of mod speculation aside, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that send scum to PRISON would NOT help them, thematically speaking.

thematically != logically

I'm still not convinced that this is the best idea anyways, because putting both scum in jail at the same time is going to be very difficult. I think that it's much worse to have a scum and a town in jail than it is to have two town in there because we have no power to lynch.

I mean, I agree with the basic idea that the goal of the game is

probably

to get both scum jailed at once. But that's not what we set out to do D1, and you were just as important a role in that decision as anyone else.

We all basically agreed to spring's idea, and when rolling dice was proposed, hell, when I proposed that we SHOULD rush D1, I don't recall any meaningful objections.

Sure, in retrospect you can say you were worried or something, but if you seriously thought putting town in jail was complete mistake because of what the Mod said, you sure as hell went the wrong way about it by saying, and I quote, "it's not a good idea to send two scum into Prison on any night".

1. Of course I didn't vote on D1. The day was unnecessarily rushed. We gained little to no information.

2. No, the implication was that the day was being rushed.

3. So your argument is that scum write responses rather than make original content? That is a very minor charge against me...

1. If you thought that, why didn't you speak up? Why were your only contributions basically along the lines of politicking for your own jailing?

2. I disagree, that's not what I got out of that at all. But I hope the town rereads this post in its context and makes up their own mind. I think you and CarnCarn are jumping on this idea that you were these two mavericks in trying to stop the town from lynching so quickly D1, when the fact of the matter is nothing of substance was done to slow us down.

3. From my experience some scum try to act like they're involved in the game by making plenty of posts... except most of them aren't really saying or contributing anything.

[RedCoyote]

We tried sending innocents to jail day one, I think it's an intelligent decision to now attempt the opposite of that and figure out who seems the likely candidates for scum.

Besides ice, even if we get our picks wrong today and send innocents to jail, would your/spring's plan better serve as a backup?

[RedCoyote]

If the Vig (or sniper, whatever) shot ABR I certainly can't blame him, but if TM was shot I'd like to see the reasoning behind that.

I'm assuming ABR never got a chance to use his power.

I guess the town should also assume that there is two mafia left? Ok, well, first order of business: Does anyone have any information about N2?

[RedCoyote]

I've never been too big on OP either, but going with Sly was certainly a bad call.

Actually, come to think of it, I misjudged three of the four of those people. So maybe OP is town just based on the fact that the opposite of what I think has a greater chance of being true, hehe.

I think the "superkill" is what through everyone off track, and I am back on board with the iceman/spring plan of purposefully trying to send townies to jail.

Send: Seraphim

My second vote reserved until later on in the day.

--

Another question though. Now that NoC's vest is gone, how do we all propose to protect him from scum? Unless there is a doctor role among us, which would make a lot of sense.

[RedCoyote]

Send: springlullaby

[RedCoyote]

Haha! What a crazy night! GG everyone.