Mini 692: Boost Mafia (Game Over!)

[Electra]

Now I'm going to skip to more serious discussions very quickly because I want to talk about boosting.

I'm going to theorize that there's three types of people in this town.

1) People with roles - if they are boosted, then they get an additional night choice, or night kill immunity, or something like that
2) People without roles - if they are boosted, they acquire a night choice, or NK immunity, or gain some piece of information or something
3) Mafia - if we boost them, they probably get things like investigation immunity or an extra night kill, or a NK that overrides doc/boosted NK immunity

So obviously, boosting Mafia is very bad and we should avoid doing it.

So to try to aid this, I'm going to put myself up for being boosted, and also claim-ish. I don't have a role, so I'm vanilla, however my role PM says that if I'm boosted, I'll gain information about the town (reworded, of course). I don't mind claiming since I'm not a power role, and if I'm not boosted, then Mafia have no reason to kill me, and I think that if I can get information, then it's a smart choice for a boost.

I considered the possibility of Mafia just killing me if I get boosted, but I decided that between the potential doc, the potential NK immunity, and the fact that it would be silly to have boosts in this game if whoever got boosted could just be killed (rendering the boosts useless) the Mafia doesn't have a really good case for killing whoever got boosted if they want their NK to go through.

So that's my case, do what you want with it.

Also, random

vote: skillet

[Electra]

@ sthar - I can't think of a reason that a massclaim would be definitely beneficial to the town, so I'm not sure where you're going. It might be the case, but I can't see why it would be based on what I know of the game.

@ TD - you don't know. I am hoping the fact that there was no night (aka the mafia would not have been able to discuss this as a strategy) and that I did it so quickly works for me. In addition, mafia would not know that there would even be roles where it's stated what type of general thing a boost might do for you.

@ iLord - I don't think scum making a gamble page 1 day 1 is a common thing, but I could be wrong. :p Anyway, I'm including the example role PM vanilla under my second category. I assume that even those vanillas would get a boost in some way, although I don't know what it would be. In my case, it tells me I get information, and I love information. :p

I disagree about playing normally. I think this boost thing can be used to help the town, and it is to the town's advantage to figure out what's the best way to use it. Ignoring what boosts might do and just blindly voting for whomever we think is least suspicious seems like a waste. For one, these people might not get useful boosts. The second thing is that scum can also appear innocent, especially on day 1. They also have their scum buddies to support boosting them. Finally, we're going to want to know what the boost did to the best of the boostee's knowledge, so we can continue to use it effectively, so if we do boost a protown power role, then we would potentially have to out that role the next day.

[Electra]

Sorry for posting things and disappearing, I've been overcome by midterms. Expect a post addressing everything later today or tomorrow - it's sort of nice to have a game where the first eight pages aren't 'vote: brian bc i like your avatar lololol'.

[Electra]

@ sthar – I’m not sure how I’d want to the other person to be chosen. It’s very tricky. I don’t want to say any ideas that would be “definites” because then the Mafia could just try to make themselves fall under whatever category. I do have ideas, but they’d be based on things that happen later in the day, so I’d just like to let those things happen naturally and then suggest my ideas.

@ iLord – I’m not saying that they can’t make a gambit, but it’s not commonly seen. The reason it’s not commonly seen is that scum generally don’t have a town enough perspective to be able to make such a gambit so early in the game.

It’s possible that Patrick views my type of role as sort of in between a vanilla and a power role.

I’m not asking you to boost me now, you can wait and decide later if you like. However, if I was planning to make this type of claim anytime during the day, then my first post was the best time to do it because it’s the least likely time that scum would be able to do it (because they would lack information about townies getting told about their boost and because they would have the least amount of time to decide if it was worth it to make such a gamble).

@ Skillet – At least for me, I’m still used to Mafia just being “goons.” Are Mafia roles really so common now? (aside from godfather which is not really a role)

@ Skillet’s second post – I think that aside from Mafia roleblocker, Mafia gaining other roles is just not beneficial. For example, a Mafia cop… what is that going to even do? And a Mafia doc? :p That’s why I didn’t really think about Mafia gaining other role abilities, although it’s certainly possible they get a roleblock.

@ iLord – I don’t know what kind of information I get, but I do hope it’s something cop-ish, and it certainly would be nice if I got scum out of it. :p And no, I don’t think I get some sort of benefit by being boosted earlier (unless I get the info as soon as I’m boosted? I assumed it would just be at night, but it would certainly be nice… I will ask the mod.)

@ sthar – I was under the impression that boosting works just like lynching, so people can unboost if they choose.

@ springlullaby – What do you not like about TDC’s vote specifically?

Now about scumminess… I may be a bit too influenced by my limited meta, because I just came out of a game as scum with sthar and skillet, but at least for now, it looks like sthar is not really scummy. Don’t read too much into this, I haven’t looked into their other games, it just seems like sthar is acting slightly differently from when he was mafia. Also, from his posts after the last game, it seems like he enjoys thinking a lot so I’m not surprised that he answers a lot of questions that aren’t necessarily directed at him. :p As for Skillet, he seems to be acting similarly to last game, but of course that doesn’t necessarily mean he’s mafia.

I think in terms of responses to my original post… first I appreciate the boosts, and I hope that you’re doing so because you think I’m town-ish. Second, in terms of suspicious responses – Crazy’s “I’d like to just play normally and ignore all this boosting stuff” seems weird to me, it’s a bit passive, and sort of seems like scum trying to have a “safe” opinion. I find eldarad’s post to be unscummy, as I think that there’s no reason for scum to be the first to “react” to such a unique post. :p I also find iLord’s post to be unscummy for a similar reason.

[Electra]

Yup, according to the mod, boosts happen at night.

@ sthar – I thought it worked like lynching in this game, where if we don’t lynch anyone, we can take back the boost as well. As for boosting someone who did something similar… yes. Honestly, the ideal situation for me would have been someone doing the exact same thing as me but like… minutes after me, before another response. Then to me, that person would be town as well, because I wouldn’t believe that scum would be bold enough to have that kind of reaction that quickly. Obviously at this point, there’s been enough talking about it that I would be skeptical of anyone trying to pull the same thing now.

@ Incognito – Yup. I don’t think I know anything about anyone else. I just finished a game with sthar and skillet, like I said. I think the only other person here I’ve ever been in a game with is Crazy, but I forgot which one.

Lol @ Jahudo for fosing yourself. XD

@ Skillet – Well, when you first made the comment about Mohinder, I assumed that you believed I was protown. When you were bringing up the part about three vs four possibilities, and when you were saying that “did I have any info on the mafia winkwink” I saw that as a weak-ish attack. You didn’t really push an attack on me after that, but I think there was a general consensus that I was more town than not, so if you continued to do so, it would seem anti-town?

@ Incognito – I didn’t comment that I don’t think he’s scum. As for leaving my vote on, it’s because I’m deciding whether or not I think he’s scummy, and it would just be weird to take my random vote off now and revote him if I decide on it. :p

@ Jahudo – I guess what’s similar is the long rambling nature of his posts, and his continuing to make said posts about one specific topic. (In this case, his posts about me, in the game before, he was pursuing someone.) The differences are that he seems nicer overall than the posts from the previous game. I tried to find town meta to complement the scum meta, but it looks like he’s been scum in both of his completed games? (Correct me if I’m wrong, skillet :p)

Still thinking, but if I continue to be unsure, I might actually vote Crazy. I found his initial post to be scummy, as I said before, and then his post about how he was going to post something is also scummy-ish. (Because he’s waiting to craft a post that doesn’t seem scummy?) And then his third post is very textbook scummy – as in he expressed some random suspicions and jumped on the largest wagon.

[Electra]

Sorry, I've been getting into the habit of just reading and waiting to make giant posts.

I feel like suspicions are being thrown around a lot, and there's no general consensus anywhere in terms of what is scummy. I will reread and make a giant post about my opinions of scumminess levels.

[Electra]

This post is not as long as I expected. I think the players in this game as a whole are more able to defend themselves than players usually are in games, and I’m having a hard time finding particular flaws in defenses or attacks – I feel like a lot of the exchanges (the main ones I think are sthar/RR, springlullaby/incognito, and a few people/skillet) could go either way.

I am not really sure about the springlullaby/Incognito exchange from a few pages back, I feel like it’s way too intense for so early in the game- as in, there’s not likely to be that much to go on, so the level of argument seems unnecessarily high. I think that Incognito’s “normally I understand where attacks are coming from” response seems unnatural. Most of the time when I’m attacked, I have no idea why they find whatever I’m doing scummy. :p I also agree with what sthar said about his response of it being protown for springlullaby to pressure him- that certainly is something that scum does.

In terms of responses to it, I find fuzzylightning’s response kind of weird. He did a long analysis of it, and then ended with a FoS on springlullaby as a conclusion. How did you get to that point from the confusion you had a few posts ago? What was different about your read the first time and then the second?

unvote

Right now my rankings of scumminess is something like…

Sthar, eldarad, less scummy.
Crazy, Incognito, scummyish.
Everyone else is swimming in the middle.

The reasons for Incognito I explained above. The reasons for Crazy are the obvious ones- very inactive in this game, and does very textbook scummy things.

I will try to form more opinions on other people in the thread by rereading, but it’s taking me time to get to know you. :p

[Electra]

Electra, about how many games have you played?

A lot, but I had a three or so year hiatus and only just came back to the site. Things have certainly changed. :p

@ Incognito - I never said I think springlullaby is protown for pressuring you. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, you're the one who said this...

[Electra]

@ iLord- really? What noob tells, praytell? :p Also I'd like to hear more about this reasoning for a mass claim. At your discretion, of course.

@ Crazy - I'm not sure if this is what you meant, but I only said that I hope I would get investigations, not that I know for sure.

@ Jahudo - pretty much. I find their arguments against each other to be fairly weak tells, and they could be scum or town, it doesn't really tell me anything. I guess if anything, I'd read them both as ever so slightly town due to the level of anger in their exchange.

Anyway, I've been saying that Crazy has been very textbook scummy, and he hasn't really done anything to alleviate my suspicions, so

unvote

, if I have not, and

vote: Crazy

. Especially because he ignored sthar's post for a while, and his response is weird to me. He says that scum wouldn't go all out to be boosted, and I don't think that they would do something like I did, but I do think that "going all out" is not what is going to lead to being boosted. The goodest little townie is going to get boosted, and scum can certainly try to look like that.

[Electra]

Sorry, I've been prodded.

I guess my issue with this game right now is that Crazy is the person I think is most likely to be scum. However, I've given my reasons for this, and voted him, and there's not much else I can do in this area because he's not making additional scummy posts (I don't think he's posted either).

The springlullaby-incognito thing, which has taken up a large area of the thread, I decided is fairly meaningless. If I were to analyze all their posts, then Incognito would come off scummier and spring would come off more town, but looking at the large picture, which is of a giant overblown _early_ attack and re-attack, I feel like the entire conversation is a null tell, and might actually lean towards both being town due to scum being less likely to commit so early. Does that make sense?

Another exchange I'm sort of eh about is the whole Raving Rabbit thing - okay, he made an argument against sthar responding to posts... how is that scummy? The point is that I don't _really_ know if responding to posts would be something a scum would do- if it had not been sthar, I might have found it strange. I think it's a feasible attack, although I wouldn't follow it. In the early game, you don't have much to go on, right? So that's why I don't see the large case that came out of this either.

Anyway, that's where I am in this game.

For the record here's my reasoning on Crazy

Antitown

1. "I'd rather play normally and then find someone pro-townish to boost." - a very safe response at the time for Mafia, when later the majority of the town decided otherwise (different thought processes between mafia and town)
2. votes skillet definitively for a not very important reason is his first real post
3. "I'm now not seeing what possible great benefit Electra would get from getting boosted (presumably as scum) that would warrant a gambit like this." - changing his mind once he sees the town consensus (other people did this too, but it's only scummy in conjunction with other things)
4. "*coughpressure* Scum vibes from TDC and RR. */pressurecough* " - in his first post, no explanation
5. ignoring sthar's post for a while
6. sthar's summary post -

"I don't see any waffling that would be indicative of a partner deciding to bus, but Crazy's poorly justified and lately applied vote highlights his other behavior, which is a shining beacon of scumminess.

In his first substantial post, Crazy notes his own inactivity and blames it on a lack of interest in the game so far, which is a weak indicator of scum in my experience so far, since early day 1 is about as boring for scum as you can get. They have no major objective other than avoiding attention and getting closer to night, and since they have no need to create any serious content, their boredom often manifests as indifference and apathy to whatever is going on.

He continues on to express suspicion of four other players, without providing any reasoning on two of them. I cannot think of any reason for both variety and inconsistancy unless he's just looking for an easy wagon. Note that Crazy's vote does go to the wagon that is the largest at this point.

He then encourages us not to worry about boosting scum, expresses unsupported suspicions of two apparently unconnected players, and buddies up to eldarad before signing off.

Was there anything protown about that post?"

His response was

>>Yeah, I was bored with the game.

>>If I want to vote somebody, I'll provide reasons why. I didn't have a strong case on either TDC nor RR, but I figured nothing could go wrong by saying that my gut spoke out against them. Obviously, if I voted for them later on I'd provide reasoning.

Isn't it completely meaningless to voice suspicions without reasons since they will disregard your suspicions?

>>I didn't say don't worry about boosting scum. We do want to boost town, but I can't imagine that scum will go all out just to get boosted.

I commented on the "go all out thing." 'He says that scum wouldn't go all out to be boosted, and I don't think that they would do something like I did, but I do think that "going all out" is not what is going to lead to being boosted. The goodest little townie is going to get boosted, and scum can certainly try to look like that. '

>>Pff, buddying up, yeah. I just said that I agreed with what he said, not that he was massively townie or anything. Don't you ever agree with people?

This is a different interpretation which is not commonly found in Mafia. :p


Protown

1. His "I'm not scum; don't worry. " While other people might consider this statement scummy, I know that this is something I sometimes say as town but never as scum. :p (keeping up my integrity a little bit in Mafia... lol)

[Electra]

Electra, you need to avoid looking at Crazy in a vacuum. Scumtells that you have experienced may not be effective here in this situation. Other stuff may be part of Crazy's normal playstyle. You need to imagine what type of Crazy would say the stuff that he's staying, and not ook for stuff that you have been told, or have expereinced as "scumtells."

I myself am not getting any scum vibes from Crazy right now - I sense genuine boredom - he's expressed as much in other games.

I'm not looking at him in a vacuum, I'm looking at him in the context of this game. What is your opinion of the type of Crazy who would exhibit these scumtells?

@ eldarad - I never said that, sthar did. There's a part of my post that's a quote from sthar.

[Electra]

I think it's possible that Crazy could be bored, especially since he was prodded in another game I'm in too. However, my main issue with him is not the lack of posting (the only point related to this was #5) but with the nature of his posts. I would like a detailed response from him to the points I made two posts ago, mainly the thought processes he had during points 1 & 2, and then a response to my response to his post. :p

[Electra]

I'm going to theorize that there's three types of people in this town.

2)

People without roles - if they are boosted

, they acquire a night choice, or NK immunity, or gain some piece of information or something

So to try to aid this, I'm going to put myself up for being boosted, and also claim-ish.

I don't have a role, so I'm vanilla, however my role PM says that if I'm boosted, I'll gain information about the town

(reworded, of course).

Note how she is claiming to speculate about how roles might work, whereas also claims that she has a role that explicitly says how it works. Note how she does not make a category for her type of role.

What are you talking about? Obviously category two is the category for my role. My speculation is based on my guesses about the game as well as the role that I have. It doesn't explicitly say what information I get only that I get information.

I would prefer boosting (myself obv.), and sth and ilord at this point.

unboost

if boosting;

boost: sth, boost: ilord

If anything is unclear please ask.

FOS

for the very quick boosts.

I know that I at least am being very careful about boosting people, and that before final boosts, I plan to reread the thread and decide which people are the least likely to be scum. The only thing Guardian says about iLord and sthar is that they are linked and he finds both to be town. Why on earth would there be any members of the town who are linked? He seems very careless with his boosts compared to the rest of the town.

[Electra]

Electra:
You say you are theorizing about people who have roles. Why would you think there are other people who are vanilla but whose roles don't say anything about boosting? If there are such people, would they be in the same category as your role? Why do you think your role fits into the category of "does not have a role"?

Post 2 says there's at least one vanilla townie PM.

Since I don't have any role unless boosted, I am essentially a vanilla. It's your discretion whether you want to separate categories of knowing somewhat what happens and not knowing at all.

About boosting -- I don't really see why everyone has been so cautious to boost. To me it makes sense to boost those who you find most likely to be town, the only important thing is to not get to a boosting majority too early. It is just like voting -- there is no reason to be cautious with voting unless someone is near a majority, I see no reason to be cautious with boosting unless someone is near a majority. Is there a reason you disagree with that?

There's a difference in that throwing around boosts doesn't really do anything. If you put a vote on a person, then it's like putting pressure on them. What exactly does boosting someone do? If votes were kept secret, indicating that the person voted was not affected in any way, I certainly would wait til the end to vote.

@ iLord - Why do you think Guardian is #2 or #3 most likely to be town?

[Electra]

Sorry, I haven't really been following this game for a little while.

Finally, we're going to want to know what the boost did to the best of the boostee's knowledge, so we can continue to use it effectively, so if we do boost a protown power role, then we would potentially have to out that role the next day.

What makes you think that the benefits of outing these power roles would be greater than the benefits of keeping the details of the roles secret?

Uh... to determine if we want to boost the person again? Obviously the ideal boosts for the town are boosts on town that cause the best effects. I would consider things like extra cop investigations, roleblocks, etc, to be the best effects while things like night immunity or an extra vote or something like that (just theorizing) would be nice, but don't really give the town much information. So if someone only gets an extra vote the next day from boosting, I'd rather not boost them again.

Now going back through the posts I missed...

@ Guardian - You didn't address this, I don't think, but you agree with springlullaby's assessment of Incognito but not her assessment of me (in that she found my post to come from a town). Why do you think she felt this way?

@ Incognito and TDC - I'm reluctant to look at meta for ongoing games considering I was yelled at in other thread for using ongoing game meta sighsigh.

@ Guardian - I don't see why Incognito would think you'd be suspicious of him when you replaced. I don't think it was an OMGUS vote towards you specifically. I also think you should have responded about the double boost instead of asking whether you should respond about it being misguided or suspicious - that seems like you trying not to fall into a trap.

I disagree about your other points about boosting, but I do agree about the scum boost trail, which would be useful.

I also disagree about my claim being good for me if I am scum and there are no other similar roles - I find it very short term thinking. If I were scum, I would never do something so risky - the point is to survive for the entire game, not to survive until the town massclaims and then die instantly.

@ sthar - Up to this point, in general, people just sound too similar. Right now, I find Guardian suspicious, but I did not find springlullaby suspicious. I also find iLord suspicious for future posts and also his constant commenting on my noob tells (although I might just be finding that annoying xD). I still think Crazy-replacement is the best lynch - he asked to be replaced in this game, but not in another game, I believe.

@ iLord - my read of SL was town-ish, but Guardian is very scummy to me. What's your read of Guardian alone?

@ Guardian - "I feel like it might be fair that SL was OMGUSy," This comment sounds like Mafia to me. It's a concession about your previous player to ideally get you further in this game. Seems scummy.

" For me to be scum doing that, for it to be scummy, I would have to have forgotten I found them tied -- in the same post where I said I found them tied!! If I were scum I could just omit I found them tied, or not boost both or either them -- I boosted them because I find/found them both most likely to be town, regardless of the chance that they are tied!"

This is also scummy, you didn't forget, you just made a mistake. Scum make mistakes.

Why do you encourage boosting of sthar over the other player? (I forgot who it was.) It seems like you commented on the two of them to have a unique thought but then you fall back to the general consensus that sthar is town-ish.

@ iLord - Why the hell is "quick boosts" a scumtell I'd be looking for? What other games have boosts?

Jahudo's boost of Raving Rabbit is extremely strange to me and seems like a reach, especially since I look at his posts and am unable to follow his opinion at all.

@ Raving Rabbit - can you just give me a quick summary of your views in the game?

By the way, I think that people are overlooking Crazy too much. It seems that in this game, people latch on to an active player to fight with and ignore inactives. I guess I have this feeling because I was inactive for a bit and I was expecting much more suspicion on me when I returned, but the vast majority of people have just continued to attack whoever they were attacking.

[Electra]

adsfasdf

@ iLord - my read of SL was town-ish, but Guardian is very scummy to me. What's your read of Guardian alone?

Guardian has constantly argued with the town, which may give us a lot of content for us to analyze, is rather hard to follow. I can say I have any definitive reads, but him inheriting SL's role sets me to thinking he's town.

@ iLord - Why the hell is "quick boosts" a scumtell I'd be looking for? What other games have boosts?

What?

----------------------------------

Despite Electra's apparent annoyance , I must note once again that Electra's post has that inexplicable air of a player who has nothing much to say, but attempts to say too much. Basically, it reads like too much "fluff" and not enough scumhunting.

You said my quick boosts comment is an example of me looking for scumtells instead of scum, why would quickboosts be a scum tell I'm looking for, since boosts are not in any other game?

As for having a large post - it was a response to a lot of posts. Compared to the volume of posts, I guess it wasn't very much content.

So you have a null read of Guardian, therefore SL's town read carries over?

As for Crazy's replacement, why would this game be particularly more overwhelming than another one?

[Electra]

Seriously, though, if you had to vote/boost, who would it be for?

I'm not ready to vote for anyone yet but if I really had to it would be Electra at the moment for wanting to out the boosted powers among other things. She is the first on my list to look at in depth. As for boosts, I just don't know at the moment.

Sorry, I haven't really been following this game for a little while.

Finally, we're going to want to know what the boost did to the best of the boostee's knowledge, so we can continue to use it effectively, so if we do boost a protown power role, then we would potentially have to out that role the next day.

What makes you think that the benefits of outing these power roles would be greater than the benefits of keeping the details of the roles secret?

Uh... to determine if we want to boost the person again? Obviously the ideal boosts for the town are boosts on town that cause the best effects. I would consider things like extra cop investigations, roleblocks, etc, to be the best effects while things like night immunity or an extra vote or something like that (just theorizing) would be nice, but don't really give the town much information. So if someone only gets an extra vote the next day from boosting, I'd rather not boost them again.

You've described the benefits of outing the roles here but you haven't answered my question or apparently considered the dangers of outing them. Are you assuming the boost will make them permanently NK-immune?

No, like I said, that's a bad thing. It's bad to out power roles. Duh. So we can't use boosts effectively. This was originally my argument for why it was a good idea to boost me because it wouldn't be necessary to out power roles because everyone already knows that I get information.

@ iLord - Why do you think quickboosts are antitown in theory if you don't believe they're indicative of scum?

[Electra]

@ iLord - Why do you think quickboosts are antitown in theory if you don't believe they're indicative of scum?

Antitown =/= Scummy.

Quick boosts are bad for the town, but offer nothing for the mafia.

I see.

While I agree that they offer nothing for the Mafia, I disagree that it's not suspicious. I feel like the key here is that Mafia can not necessarily see what's antitown and not as well as town, and so quick boosts might be something Mafia do accidentally.

[Electra]

@ Mana_Ku - In response to people boosting me, I made a clear case to be boosted. Some people probably boosted me prematurely (like 1) but most of the boosts I got were after a lot of discussion about my post, so I don't think they were quick boosts.

The point is that you know with about as much certainty of my role as you would if someone else claimed; in my case, I've already claimed, so we would be using the boost more effectively than if we didn't know what it did or if we outed a role.

@ Incognito - I like your post a lot, and I think it makes very much sense. Something that I thought about is that when I'm town, I more often find people unsuspicious for various reasons (i.e. reasons they wouldn't be mafia) instead of suspicious for various reasons because I feel like town is more likely to act like town than mafia is to act like mafia. It does look like Guardian is pointing fingers at almost everyone, and being receptible to whatever bandwagon may form by referencing this post. It could just be his playing style though. Not having meta on everyone is kind of annoying.

@ Guardian - I'll wait for your response to my post, but in the meantime, I caught this in TDC's post.

Why do you take it to be more likely that I am scum rather than a townie that disagrees?"

This isn't something I would ever say as town... I don't think I'd portray myself as a "townie that disagrees", I would portray myself as a townie that's correct, and the rest of you are disagreeing. :p

[Electra]

Hm. My best guess (without re-reading SL) is that she didn't think that a player she didn't recognize would pull off this gambit as scum. I just think that if scum could talk pre-game (could they? did mod say? I tried to check and did not see one way or the other) a more experienced partner could have told you what to do.

I think I'm fairly experienced, if you look at my join date. :p However, this doesn't make sense, if I were new and scum, why would an experienced scum tell me to do this? Wouldn't the experienced scum just do it themselves so there would be less of a chance the gambit gets screwed up?

Anyway, I still don't think this gambit would have been a good or even possible scum play.

I'm very confused about what this is asking about, could you re-explain/clarify?

Not really a question, just some comments. I guess, why do you think Incognito would believe that you'd be suspicious of him? Generally replacements leave their counterparts' opinions behind.

That's fair enough but, could you explain why you disagree with my other points about boosting? You might see something I missed and convince me that those points are wrong -- more discussion about the theory of boosting is definitely relevant in this game.

I don't know, I am just not seeing much conversation coming from boosts. It doesn't help find who's more suspicious, it just gives people a town list. If anything, if there's scum who's been on several of these town lists, they may be encouraged.

Hm, that makes sense, but you could end up saying "Guys, I guess my role was unique!" I did not consider this point and it lends some more credence to how I said your claim would be more plausible IF there are other roles that explicitly say what happens when you boost them.

I do NOT want other peopl to reveal if they have such roles, or make it obvious... but if you do have such a role it is possible you have justification for boosting Electra that is unavailable to me.

It doesn't really seem like a unique role, does it? It's too related to the game to be one of a kind.

Why wouldn't town want to get further in the game? Me being lynched as town is the single worst contribution I can make to the town.

I actually have this thought too, and my strategy when I'm town is to try to clear myself as best as I can (hey, if all town can do this, then we win automatically). In general though, I've found town to be very unrelenting in their arguments and scum more friendly.

You are asserting that I made a mistake as scum in my second post that I took two hours to compose after replacing in. I make mistakes as scum, but not like that. I knew I was suggesting a link between them and boosting them, that was a conscious choice/thought process. I boosted them despite the possibility of them being linked.

I don't really get the link possibility. You said in your original post that they were linked, not that there was a possibility.

No before you right now asked me why I am boosting sth. I find him town for many reasons. He takes a very ubiased stance to the game, his suspicions seem largely untied to anyone else's with possible exception of iLord (I need to re-read/dig deeper) and also he suggested mass claim on page one in a way that made sense. I can try and go into more detail if that is necessary.

Fair enough.

more to come

Also yay for boosthammer.

[Electra]

The reason this is not a good scum gambit is this: I've been boosted, so what? It just means that people find me to be unlikely to be mafia today, it means nothing for the future. If people find evidence that leads them to believe I would be scum (for example, a cop investigates me because I drew attention to myself) or when it's massclaiming time, my role is out of place, I would die. Scum's optimal play is to stick around not to think of ways to kill more townies. In my opinion.

limited access/vacation until after the weekend, sorry

[Electra]

I think sthar is best for a second boost. I just read through all his posts again, and I didn't think anything he said was particularly suspicious, furthermore, his formatting of posts has been very clear and protown. His massclaim suggestion seems unlikely for scum to do, since when I am scum, I hate massclaims. In addition, he would have had to give a reason for why he felt a massclaim would be good if people had agreed to it. I also like his suspicions of Crazy, although it seems like Crazy will not be the lynch today, and we won't see what alignment he actually is.

So

boost: sthar

[Electra]

The reason this is not a good scum gambit is this: I've been boosted, so what? It just means that people find me to be unlikely to be mafia today, it means nothing for the future.

Mafia get some kind of bonus if boosted, right? So I assume that that is really bad for the town and good for the scum. So you being as boosted as scum is v(ery).nice for scum .

Sure, but the best possible boost for a Mafia would be an extra night kill. If I'm Mafia, and die as a result of this gambit, a town for a mafia would still be a bad deal for me.

[Electra]

I think the best (worst) thing for the Mafia to get would be an extra night kill. A one shot role cop would be not that useful, I think, and same for a roleblock (they're just not guaranteed to actually have an effect). Immunity to investigation is better than immunity to NK (we don't know how many killing groups there are yet, of course), but even still, it would require the cop to investigate the mafia for the boost to be useful for mafia. So another night kill is definitely the best thing for mafia to get and what we should be most afraid of. (And if you think about it, roleblock/rolecop are significantly worse than NK+ because they could just kill whoever they were planning to investigate/block.)

Well, you don't know how big the risk actually was. Obviously it looks like a good play for me in hindsight, but I still think it's a much better play as town than scum.

[Electra]

I'm defining vanilla as not having a role. Boosts are specific to this game, and anyone can be boosted, so if I don't get anything unless I'm boosted, I'm vanilla to me.

Why would the Mafia assume that town had these roles even if they had similar roles? It's just too much of a leap. People just aren't that smart/bold. :p The fact that I did this quickly means that it was an easy thought process because I was telling the truth. If I was lying, then I'd have to think through much more to make sure I didn't say anything that would screw me up.

He said play normally and then find someone to boost later. I take this to mean, ignore boosts, don't talk about them, and then pick the least scummy. I'm mainly advocating talking about the strategy behind boosting. Mafia would obviously not want to delve too deeply into a strategy because it would hurt them.

It's true that I've been light on the scumhunting, and I will try to do better before the day is over.

This is the first of my individual reads on players. I'm trying to avoid repeating things which have already been looked at but I may not always succeed.

So to try to aid this, I'm going to put myself up for being boosted, and also claim-ish. I don't have a role, so I'm vanilla, however my role PM says that if I'm boosted, I'll gain information about the town (reworded, of course). I don't mind claiming since I'm not a power role, and if I'm not boosted, then Mafia have no reason to kill me, and I think that if I can get information, then it's a smart choice for a boost.

Here Electra claims to be vanilla but also claims to have a role PM which is clearly not vanilla; and a role which gains information about the town if boosted could just as easily be given to mafia as to town.

@ TD - you don't know. I am hoping the fact that there was no night (aka the mafia would not have been able to discuss this as a strategy) and that I did it so quickly works for me. In addition, mafia would not know that there would even be roles where it's stated what type of general thing a boost might do for you.

How do you know that the mafia would not know there could be such roles? They might have similar roles themselves. And how does the fact that you did this so quickly prove anything?

I think in terms of responses to my original post… first I appreciate the boosts, and I hope that you’re doing so because you think I’m town-ish.
Second, in terms of suspicious responses – Crazy’s “I’d like to just play normally and ignore all this boosting stuff” seems weird to me, it’s a bit passive, and sort of seems like scum trying to have a “safe” opinion. I find eldarad’s post to be unscummy, as I think that there’s no reason for scum to be the first to “react” to such a unique post. :p I also find iLord’s post to be unscummy for a similar reason.

You are misrepresenting Crazy here. He did not not say "ignore all this boosting stuff”. What he actually said was "I'd rather play normally and then find someone pro-townish to boost. I think it's likely that everyone will get at least something from being boosted... so I don't think boosting Electra is conceivably better than boosting anyone else at this point." Why is it 'passive' and 'like scum' not to give his boost to the first person to ask for it? Later on, in post 286, you write, "I know that I at least am being very careful about boosting people, and that before final boosts, I plan to reread the thread and decide which people are the least likely to be scum." So why did you think Crazy was scummy for showing the same caution? And why is it unscummy for eldarad and iLord to be quick to react?

@Huntress: Do you see anything suspicious from Electra that doesn't have to do with boosting/theory talk/setup talk?

The main thing is that, except for one or two of her more recent posts, she seems to be observing rather than actually scumhunting. She almost seems to be using her case against Crazy as an excuse for not going after anyone else, yet when she details her case on him she's listing things that are anti-town, not necessarily scummy.

[Electra]

@ Huntress - I just think that people are not very likely to do such gambits, and if they do, I don't think they can do them well. For example, something that's a "good" scum gambit is to claim miller on day 1, but this can be ruined by being unable to provide proper flavor related to the game, being role-name counterclaimed, etc, etc.

Mafia would not know town roles, even if they had similar roles. In the same way, even though my role is structured this way, I have no idea if Mafia would be told the same types of things.

That's what I took it to mean because that's what it looks like he said. I don't really see why I shouldn't look at people's posts the way I look at them. : p

Okay, anyway.

I tried to form some opinions on people who I haven't really commented on before.

eldarad - his first posts read pro-town to me, but his three-scum theory seems way too far-fetched. I don't think SL faked her anger to distance herself from scumbuddy Incognito. Even if scum had planned this beforehand, SL came into the game late, and so I don't think she would have really been a part of this discussion. Furthermore, Guardian would definitely have not been part of this discussion, and so I don't really see how this could be.

TDC- his posts seem very protown to me, now that I read through them again. I'd probably support his boost second to sthar.

Jahudo- I agree with iLord's case on him. He has definitely been playing very cautiously, there are several lines of him that sound like scum trying to sound like a good townie.

ManaKu - her first post is OK, but her lack of posts is not. In general, I feel like scum would have problems in a game with such large amounts of posting like this and would avoid talking. If she had real opinions, she would have continued to elaborate on them, not disappear.

Note: I've noticed that replacements tend to find me more suspicious than people who were in the game when I made my posts, so I assume it just reads as more suspicious than it was when I did it. So I feel like people attacking me (who are replacements) is pretty much a null tell, maybe slightly protown, since if scum, they would have to deliberately go against the general consensus.

[Electra]

I agree that we should find someone to kill.

Here is who I'd support a bandwagon on.

Crazy/Huntress - obviously.

Jahudo - for the reasons in my previous post. Also, Incognito's quote of his opinion changing is interesting.

Mana_Ku - is she still around? has she been replaced and I just missed it? At any rate, the lack of posting is scummy, even if she will be replaced.

Raging Rabbit - probably the silliest reason, but I have no read on him and it doesn't look like a read is going to be appearing, so if other people find him suspicious, I'd go for it just to be able to form an opinion on if he claims.

Holding my vote on Crazy/Huntress for now.

[Electra]

guys really lets not lynch Huntress.

I responded to the case on crazy and I think its bad, and Huntress gives me a neutral vibe at worst. I will not support lynching Huntress today unless my opinion changes drastically.

Can you link me to your response? I can't find it.

[Electra]

I don't think Jahudo is more likely to be scum than Huntress, therefore I am unwilling to move to his bandwagon for the time being. (also Huntress is the larger wagon, etc, etc) Also, did Huntress claim? I will be okay with a Jahudo lynch if that's the only option.

I find both of their "I don't find the other suspicious, I find this random person suspicious" to be sketchy. Depending on what Jahudo claims, I may be more likely to move to him, since he's implied certain things about his role already.

@ Jahudo - I don't think Huntress's wagon grew quickly, I remember it stagnating at some number and then getting a few more votes recently, but if you can point out that her wagon grew in a way that would resemble a wagon on a townie, I would probably be willing to switch my vote to you.

[Electra]

We have 5 votes each.

Huntress (5) <- sthar8, Electra, eldarad, Green Crayons, Jahudo
Jahudo 5) <- Incognito, iLord, Guardian, TDC, Raging Rabbit
eldarad <- Huntress

Not voting: RandomGem.

RandomGem hasn’t posted since November 29 so he’s probably flaked. Huntress is the tie-breaker. If it might change some minds in 24 hours, I might as well claim:

Without a boost I’m vanilla town, I don’t do anything at night.
With a boost I can give someone pearls of wisdom.

I guess I would be given clarification on what that did if I got the chance to use it but my guess is that it’s like mason talk.

Does it say in your role PM why you would be able to give pearls of wisdom to someone?

[Electra]

unvote: Huntress

I'll believe it for now, although I can't see why Crazy would be bored with such a fun role. Can you boost yourself?

[Electra]

Okay, I don't get a cop investigation, sad. I found out things related to game mechanics, but I want to see what sthar says he got, because there are some things I found that might make life easier for him if he's scum and has to fake what boost he got.

[Electra]

Sorry, here's my information. I'm very busy as it is near Christmas, but don't want to stall the game, so what I was told was

1. There are some players in the game that boosts do nothing for.
2. Boosts will only work for a player 2 times, after that, they will have no effect.

[Electra]

@sthar - The information I didn't want you to know is that some people didn't get boosts. If you knew this, then you could just claim it if you were scum. Similarly, if you claimed it but didn't know the information beforehand, it would make you more cleared.

I was actually lying in my game setup speculation in the very beginning, because of the wording of my role, I thought that there were no traditional power roles, just roles that became power if boosted (so I thought I would become a cop, and said that I believed there were other power roles and that I was "vanilla" so Mafia wouldn't bother to kill me). Turns out my fake speculation was more correct.

Huntress, I forgot if you mentioned, but what is your role's flavor?