Mini 692: Boost Mafia (Game Over!)

[Crazy]

Hi guys.

I'd rather play normally and then find someone pro-townish to boost. I think it's likely that everyone will get at least

something

from being boosted... so I don't think boosting Electra is conceivably better than boosting anyone else at this point.

Random

Vote: fuzzylightning

[Crazy]

I was prodded. Sorry for not posting. Will come up with something tonight.

[Crazy]

Few comments... I have to appease my guilt for not contributing yet by doing

something

. Hopefully I'll find great interest in this game soon.

One thing I noticed in my reread was this... yeah, yeah, Incognito mentioned it, too, but I noted it before I read her post.

There are likely either only 2 categories, or 4. it seems presumptuous to assume that all mafia members would be in one category when everyone else falls into one of 2. I agree that people either have or do not have roles, but to assume that either all or no mafia have roles seems like it would require some extra information to assert.

you don't...have extra information about the specifics of the mafia members powers...do you?

Bolded is an accusation.

Further:

the gist of it was that i was not trying to imply any kind of slant either way about E and that i was just trying to make sure that, if we were going to use her theory to frame the discussion about boosting, that it should be as accurate as possible.

Denies that he accused her in the first place.

Unvote, Vote: Skillit

Sthar caught my eye in his first post:

I have a theory about the setup that does not conform 100% with electra's, but it is close. If I'm right, early massclaim might be a game-breaking strategy for town. Unfortunately, while electra's post does support my idea, I don't have enough evidence to be sure, and I can't reveal the reasoning without showing the scum how to mitigate the damage.

So, I'd basically have to ask the town to trust me on a huge risk, which I'm not willing to do without more concrete evidence. What I'll do instead is ask everybody a question.

Do you feel that massclaim might be a viable strategy at this time?

Suggesting a massclaim shows that he knows something most of us don't. Either he's non-vanilla or scum as far as I know. His later posts don't really give me a slant either way on him, so I'm not really feeling the wagon.

I'm now not seeing what possible great benefit Electra would get from getting boosted (presumably as scum) that would warrant a gambit like this. It's not like a boost is an automatic win, right? Which makes me think it's more likely that she's pro-town.

*coughpressure* Scum vibes from TDC and RR. */pressurecough*

Massive QFT to everything that eldarad has said so far.

And... there's some random spill-out of my thoughts. Good night, it's midnight right now.

[Crazy]

Skillit, I don't care about the joke. I want to know why you made an attack on Electra in #21 and later you said that whole thing was just for clarification, and you didn't mean to provide any slant on Electra. (#44)

[Crazy]

Will also post more soon. I'm not scum; don't worry.

[Crazy]

Will also post more soon. I'm not scum; don't worry.

Wow...

Srsly.

[Crazy]

I haven't given the game the attention it deserves.

I apologize and will try for a reread and some content tomorrow.

I don't have a habit of lurking through my games as either scum or town, so please forgive me in this case... and I'll try to have some stuff up soon.

[Crazy]

I usually don't do analysis like this (I'm a short, frequent poster, usually)... and I've only read up through page 5 now. Still got page 6. I just needed to catch up in some way.

1) Electra

Scum are not likely to gambit like she did on Page 1. Doesn't confirm her 100%, but it makes it hard to think of her as scum.

@ iLord – I don’t know what kind of information I get, but I do hope it’s something cop-ish, and it certainly would be nice if I got scum out of it. :p And no, I don’t think I get some sort of benefit by being boosted earlier (unless I get the info as soon as I’m boosted? I assumed it would just be at night, but it would certainly be nice… I will ask the mod.)

Okay, there's the answer of someone's question that I encountered earlier. Maybe people will call this more WIFOM, but I don't believe scum will fake an indefinite ability. Just seems weird.

@ Incognito – Yup. I don’t think I know anything about anyone else. I just finished a game with sthar and skillet, like I said. I think the only other person here I’ve ever been in a game with is Crazy, but I forgot which one.

Windkirby's Mini 675.

2) Skillit

people with, people without, and mafia.

Electra if the mafia aren't people, what are they?

There are likely either only 2 categories, or 4. it seems presumptuous to assume that all mafia members would be in one category when everyone else falls into one of 2. I agree that people either have or do not have roles, but to assume that either all or no mafia have roles seems like it would require some extra information to assert. you don't...have extra information about the specifics of the mafia members powers...do you?

If im being confusing on this just tell me, i get a lot of sass for that.

Weak attack, I've said it before, still saying it. It's really just going on an irrelevant point.

Skillit does defend his point well in #34, but to be honest, the point to begin with was arbitrary.

Jahudo - i had an answer all typed up but i got some kind of popup and lost everything and now in too angry to retype. >_<

the gist of it was that i was not trying to imply any kind of slant either way about E and that i was just trying to make sure that, if we were going to use her theory to frame the discussion about boosting, that it should be as accurate as possible.

Uhh, what? It was an attack; you

did

provide slant.

Also

Boost: Incognito

for allowing me to indulge in more heroes chat. (really for making the effort to understand my point)

What the heck is the reason for a semi-random boostvote? Are you buddying up or what?

3) Raging Rabbit

I think we should definitely discuss boosting as well vote, no reason whatsoever to both make the days a whole lot longer and make the discussions unconnected. I think people's opinion on who to boost can help a lot with scumhunting, especially after we'll have a confirmed scum.
Vote iLord for trying to prevent this.

Also, boost Electra. Could be a scumgambit, but I think this is testable enough to make it worth our while. We're basically as unsure about her as we are about anyone at this point, and considering her claim boosting her will gain as more info.

First paragraph I can agree, though I don't think it makes much difference any way we do it.

The problem is... the information Electra gives us is

not

testable. What if she claims an innocent on Player X? How would you test that?

What's more testable than information? It'll be very easy to find out if what she supplies us with is true or false as the game progresses. Definitely easier to test than the unknown effects of boosting anyone else,

Scum don't always provide false information, but yeah, I think I see your point now. I didn't before.

I don't really buy you weren't noticing the stuff you wrote, this sorta panicky response looks like scum kicking himself for being suspected.

Unvote, vote sthar.

Umm, what? I'll go back to the Open 94 scenario and ask what would you expect a townie to do in that situation? (And as far as I can see, Sthar's #62 is a good defense of this)

4) iLord

I'm wary of Electra - what she's doing is way too easy of a scum gambit for me to trust.

Additionally, didn't Patrick give us the vanilla town PM? It said nothing about powers after boosted. It'd be kind of odd for vanillas to be different from the mod example.

Since when are scum gambits ever easy? And vanilla in some terms can mean just "no active powers."

"Scum can't gambit on the first page" is exactly what makes such gambits effective.

And the fact that people say that makes them ineffective! Wooh, WIFOM!

What I'm saying is that sure, we can start discussing boost targets, but not to boost anyone until we decided who to lynch. There, we can choose the best targets.

I do like this idea. Seems the best way to keep our options open.

I'm not sure the info is as accurate as an investigation result, but if she does claim to have caught scum with this, lynching him is clearly the right move. If he turns town we'll just lynch her the next day.

And if she claims to get an innocent?

I don't believe RR ever answered this question... too bad, 'cuz that was the pivotal point of the argument.

5) TDC

3) Mafia - if we boost them, they probably get things like investigation immunity or an extra night kill, or a NK that overrides doc/boosted NK immunity

So obviously, boosting Mafia is very bad and we should avoid doing it.

So to try to aid this, I'm going to put myself up for being boosted, and also claim-ish.
[..]
So that's my case, do what you want with it.

And how would we know whether or not you fall in category 3?

This sounds overanxious, really. Especially since he [..]ed through the part where Electra claimed, you know, the important part that gave evidence that she

wasn't

mafia.

And, as Electra said, for a scum to make that leap of faith about the existence or otherwise of boostable vanilla townies, or whatever, is pause for thought.

That's a fair point.

Boost: Electra

.

I'm not sure why ILord and RR are talking about guilties and innocents, when Electra's claim clearly said she'll get "information about the town", which I'd guess would be things like "There's X scum in the town" or "there are Y vanillas". Nothing she said suggested it's a cop investigation.

Skillit's last post reads like back-pedaling from a fairly contrived attack on Electra.

unvote, vote: Skillit

And while I'm at it

Boost: eldarad

, I liked what he's said so far.

I really admire posts like this. Good perception and straight to the point. The second paragraph is a good thought, and I'd like to see Electra's clarification on that (if I come to that continuing my readthrough.)

Also, Electra is on "B-1". I think there's no harm in waiting a bit with the "hammer" until we have a better idea of who's going to be the lynch and who might be the second boost.

Yeah... I'm starting to think it doesn't really matter at this point. I can't really see anything changing that would make Electra

not

a good boost choice.

7) Incognito

(Before I read, I'd like to ask how Incognito does those quotes with links to the Post #? Is there a shortcut for that?)

Yes, I read the link that you linked to and was able to determine who the character was and what the specifics were with respect to the character. But that's precisely my point: if you're saying that you think Electra just wants to be special [by being altered in some way, (in this case through boosting)], then doesn't that imply that you believe her vanilla claim? If it was a joke like you say it was, then fine but if it wasn't, I'd like to know why you seemed to readily accept her claim.

This seems like a town-oriented line of questioning. Not sure why.

I really like Incog's #56, except for the vote on Sthar. Answering for other people is what a lot of people have a habit of doing. I'm sure I do it quite often myself (though I try to avoid it.)

8) eldarad

I'm fairly sure Patrick will have considered the impact of a massclaim when creating the setup, so I am sceptical of the claim that there is a game-breaking strategy.

True.

QFT to eldarad's #32.

9) sthar8

Sthar is soft-claiming in #12 and #17... which means he is very likely town. Scum don't want to ruin their fake-claim so early in case they change their mind.

Sthar's #35 is nice.

"Tempted" does not equal "considering." I was teasing electra based on her most recent post, and announcing that I see some value in the Skillit wagon. For the record, I consider my vote to still be random, but I also like the results of it sitting where it is. I don't see anything that merits a true nonrandom vote yet, although there are a couple promising leads.

I'd find this very scummy if I didn't already think he was town... crap.

I'll try and take it as a slight pro-town sign that you've called me of all people out on certain things when I've pretty much had absolutely nothing directed at me and have been finding myself trying to create my own content to get involved in.

This is manipulative and scummy.

In case anyone doesn't see what's going on here, in this quote Incog responds to lullaby's attack with "You're wrong to suspect me, but it's pro-town of you to pressure someone taking as little heat as I am." This isolates lullaby's view as minority and dismisses his attack by reminding everybody that no one is particularly suspicious of Incog otherwise. It also does some very subtle buddying, portraying Incog as a nonthreat or ally to lullaby, making him less likely to pursue Incog in the future, if it works. I've used this tactic to great effect as scum.

If this were representative of your total response to lullaby, I'd be voting for you.

Excellent point, though I believe the rest of Incog's defense more than makes up for it.

10) springlullaby

Boost electra

I think her post comes from a townie.

What skillet said seems superficial but on second thought I think it makes a good point, it's good to keep in mind that mafia may have abilities that are independent from boost to avoid reasonings based on wrong basis - ie: "X can't be responsible of action XXXX because X hasn't been boosted".

I don't like TDC's vote on him.VOTE:TDC

Well, it's clear that there are some town roles in this game that aren't the vanilla role in the first post. So that alone would compensate for the reasonings in your post here.

And... your attack on Incognito ventures way too far into "Too Townie" territory. Overall, the attack was fairly weak and Incog defended herself well.

11) Jahudo

I am against claiming and Electra basically stated the reasons against it. Scum will know what the boosted people can do and how best to approach them at night. I think we should go about things normally.

If someone thinks they should or should not be boosted they can say that before the lynch, but no specifics. It should be a combination of the candidate thinking they have a useful power and the group thinking they're pro-town.

I didn't see Electra's claim as out of place, and I don't think you can make a general rationalization of how much information to claim. Different cases call for different measures.

12) fuzzylightning

I like most of FL's first post (#69), though the immense speculation in this paragraph makes me somewhat wary, though I can't really say that it's scummy.

Now as to my theory on the effects of boosting, I think it will work where any one-time roles will get a free use on that night, and any other roles will get an extra use. As far as vanilla's, I think information would make sense, or maybe NK immunity for the one night, which could be good for an almost lylo situation. As far as speculation on what would happen for the mafia, it depends on when the boost goes into effect, because if it is immediate i could see an extra NK or the ability to RB.

Crazy: You say that you are getting scum vibes from TDC and RR, where do you think they are coming from, because you really haven't shown anything against them.

Yeah... I didn't want to make anything at that point... they were just some minor points. I've probably mentioned some of them in this post.

[Crazy]

Crazy, what do you think about RR's attack on sthar8?

It's crap and it's scummy. I guess I didn't make that clear enough.

[Crazy]

Cases don't work like that - any points that Incognito defends well against count as null, not as benefits. They can't outweigh the good points in the case against him.

For example, if I said that Incognito was scummy because he formats his post and he didn't comment on Electra. Then if he completely blows the formatting argument out of the water, does that lower the value of the Electra point at all?

Well, there is a difference here. That point was from sthar, not from SL, who was the one attacking Incog. So I don't think it's quite the same thing.

And besides, voting someone based on that one point about whatever sthar said (I forgot, something about buddying up to SL or similar) isn't warranted.

[Crazy]

I see.

What do you think about Incognito's alignment?

I'm thinking town. I disagree with SL's case.

[Crazy]

I'm thinking town. I disagree with SL's case.

Most of it or all of it?

I haven't even read all of it. After the first post by SL and the first post by Incog, I just skimmed it.

1. Incognito has yet to take a position on Electra, indeed despite multiple posts since the beginning of the game, he has not once addressed the Electra issue directly, preferring to ask peripheral questions instead.

I think this is scummy because assuming Electra is town, scum wouldn't know how to react to her post, and would want to gauge town's sentiment first.

Even scum could have just agreed with an option by then. The fact that she's hesitant shows nothing.

2. All of Incognito's posts has 'look I'm such a good little townie' written all over them, but has yet to produce anything meaningful.

a. Ask 'soft' questions of doubtful relevance in about every post he makes, but doesn't seem to garner any insights from the answers he got.

Questions can't hurt the town. And I do think that most of her questions had some feasible point to them.

2. A weak vote on sthar, it doesn't convey a sense of suspicions, but rather annoyance at sthar answering in other's stead. When sthar answers, Incognito seems to be satisfied with sthar's response as indicated by post addressing Raggin Rabit, yet vote still on sthar.

It seemed like a real vote to me. I don't have a problem with the second part.

3. A prod within the first 3 pages, wtf.

Incognito, I think you very much resemble scum trying to look busy, what do you think?

And this is nothing.

There.

[Crazy]

Crazy - any reason for completely ignoring sthar's case on you in your big recap post? Who do you think is scum?

I might have missed it.

Skillet, SL, you.

[Crazy]

'Kay, I'll respond to it if you like.

I don't see any waffling that would be indicative of a partner deciding to bus, but Crazy's poorly justified and lately applied vote highlights his other behavior, which is a shining beacon of scumminess.

In his first substantial post, Crazy notes his own inactivity and blames it on a lack of interest in the game so far, which is a weak indicator of scum in my experience so far, since early day 1 is about as boring for scum as you can get. They have no major objective other than avoiding attention and getting closer to night, and since they have no need to create any serious content, their boredom often manifests as indifference and apathy to whatever is going on.

He continues on to express suspicion of four other players, without providing any reasoning on two of them. I cannot think of any reason for both variety and inconsistancy unless he's just looking for an easy wagon. Note that Crazy's vote does go to the wagon that is the largest at this point.

He then encourages us not to worry about boosting scum, expresses unsupported suspicions of two apparently unconnected players, and buddies up to eldarad before signing off.

Was there anything protown about that post?

Yeah, I was bored with the game.

If I want to vote somebody, I'll provide reasons why. I didn't have a strong case on either TDC nor RR, but I figured nothing could go wrong by saying that my gut spoke out against them. Obviously, if I voted for them later on I'd provide reasoning.

I didn't say don't worry about boosting scum. We

do

want to boost town, but I can't imagine that scum will go all out just to get boosted.

Pff, buddying up, yeah. I just said that I agreed with what he said, not that he was massively townie or anything. Don't you ever agree with people?

[Crazy]

I'm terribly sorry, but I'm going to be asked to be replaced.