Mini 692: Boost Mafia (Game Over!)

[Jahudo]

Boost: springlullaby

for being above me on the list

Vote: fuzzylightning

for being below me on the list

[Jahudo]

I am against claiming and Electra basically stated the reasons against it. Scum will know what the boosted people can do and how best to approach them at night. I think we should go about things normally.

If someone thinks they should or should not be boosted they can say that before the lynch, but no specifics. It should be a combination of the candidate thinking they have a useful power and the group thinking they're pro-town.

[Jahudo]

to say that there are only 3 possibilities is just illogical.

At first I thought your response to Electra's setup possibilities was in joking because you talked about Mohinder and her wanting to be special. But you have a very thorough follow up so are you leaning to any serious conclusions on Electra yet? That is, do you think her claim and strategy look genuine or not? Are your feelings dependent on her only having 3 possibilities or is there something else there? Or was this part/mostly in joking?

Also it looks like everyone but fuzzylightning has posted. My random vote gains some weight, or does it?

[Jahudo]

A more complete understanding of the reality of the mechanics cannot help but to be more accurate than an inaccurate one, and would assist in our individual and collective boost strategies and in the discussion of such strats..

Ok. It was still strange how prepared you were to go in-depth on page 1. Since Electra initiated the serious posting, your timing for a response is okay. Your confessed thoroughness could account for the in-depth response, but that personality is now something more to consider in the future.

Also, what does "TL;DR Version" stand for?

I'm tempted to vote electra for her avatar, but I'd rather wait and see if we can keep the Skillit wagon going for a bit longer.

So are you considering a random vote or a serious wagon? What stage are you in?

[Jahudo]

You're right that boosts cannot be taken back.

So do you think once a person has, what, 9 boost votes to break a three way tie majority, that person gets a boost? And the second would need eight and only then the lynch would go through?

For the record, I consider my vote to still be random, but I also like the results of it sitting where it is.

You have no problem with leaving a random vote on a bandwagon of 4 votes?

Regarding skillit's "attack" on Electra's argument, I think it has been misconstrued, the pun was there, and while cheeky and funny, it made it seem like you were making way too big a deal of it as you went on.

Are you saying skillit misconstrued Electra's argument or some people have misconstrued skillit's attack? Do you think his initial statement was understood enough that he shouldn't have had to go on talking about it? And since he did, there's a more serious motive there? What do you feel about the strength of his wagon?

Second, in terms of suspicious responses

You skipped me
Actually I didn't directly say you were town or scum for your claim, but you could be right about scum not being able to make a convincing lie that early. You're still a ways a way from a boost majority so I don't really see the hesitancy in some people to use their boost.

Boost Electra

[Jahudo]

So do you think once a person has, what, 9 boost votes to break a three way tie majority, that person gets a boost?

Doh. I just read the post count that says it's 7 to boost. FoS Jahudo.

[Jahudo]

As for Skillet, he seems to be acting similarly to last game, but of course that doesn’t necessarily mean he’s mafia.

Can you elaborate any on the similarities you see in Skillit's behavior? Does it have anything to do with his joking attitude? How did you read his comments towards your setup ideas?

But I really haven't retained enough knowledge from this game to scumhunt or make a knowledgeable post. I need to reread and to reindulge myself into the game.

Any particular reason why this game has been hard to grasp?

[Jahudo]

Incognito: I have been reading your exchanges with spring and am still thinking about what some of these accusations mean because they could be explained by a meta of however you two usually play; how often and long you post, how forward you are or if you wait for things to happen, etc.

I'm not sure what spring is trying to say with "8 out of 10 persons reserving judgment are scum...". If she said something like "I think people who reserve judgment are anti-town" it wouldn't sound like a baseless accusation.

I do like how she called you out for being passive aggressive, even if it isn't an accurate term to use. The reaction posts I saw of you did not look passive aggressive, so I think she succeeded in prodding you to gain a better read for us. At this early point in the game, I'm getting some town vibes from Incognito and I would from spring too if not for that 8 out of 10 thing which I think needs a further explanation.

[Jahudo]

In his first substantial post, Crazy notes his own inactivity and blames it on a lack of interest in the game so far, which is a weak indicator of scum in my experience so far...

He continues on to express suspicion of four other players, without providing any reasoning on two of them...

He then encourages us not to worry about boosting scum, expresses unsupported suspicions of two apparently unconnected players, and buddies up to eldarad before signing off.

This sound like a very serious list of tells. When Crazy votes for skillit, he mentions skillit's loaded question to Electra then skillit's claim that he didn't accuse her. Skillit's specific words were "imply any slant either way". Is a page 1 loaded question going to look serious and imply slant if you don't have a read on them? Does the initial accusation fail if it looks sarcastic joking to anyone?

I don't find anything odd about the timing of the vote since Crazy was supposedly away and got prodded. I also don't think he just jumped on the largest wagon because I don't see him trying to push it without anything new to show for it. Maybe that's indicative of something else, though.

I kinda agree that sthar8's theory on the setup could more likely come from a non-vanilla but as far as an alignment I don't know and don't care because that never manifested. I don't know if Crazy could turn it into a only scum possibility.

I think it's okay to suspect people like he did for TDC and RR, by not saying anything just yet. To me, it seems he's not as serious because it's not outlined. But using it as a preemption back by other people is another thing.

2. Are you kidding me? Were did I ever suggest that my numbers were statistical? Look at how I formulated that and come again, I expressly wrote 'I think'. Those numbers are rough estimate based on my experience, and it means to convey that I think the vast majority of people who like to 'reserve judgment' are scum. Are you deliberately misrepresenting me here?
...
they want to keep all options open the longer possible,

especially if they do not indicate their initail read at all, which is your case.

I must've missed the part I bolded because now I understand the rationale for this reserving judgment accusation. And yes, "I think" makes it sound more opinionated than scientifically proven hypothesis, but it was the second paragraph that explains the 8 out of 10 argument for me.

I'm getting more of a town read from spring in post 129, but have a few comments/questions on what she said that I'll reserve until after incog comes back and releases his next response novel. Please let it be in paperback.

unvote

, I need to come up with scummy and towny lists.

[Jahudo]

Then, his post asking me why this game was hard to grasp for me caught my eye. I would like him to explain why he asked that question. My answer is that I skimmed some of the earlier posts and as a result couldn’t understand the latter ones.

I saw that you posted three times to say you were lost and needed to re-read. Would that mean you've read the thread at least 4 times? I wanted to know if there was something that didn't look right and if you've caught something we've mostly missed.

Jahudo’s replies to the Incognito/springlullaby thing was very unsatisfactory, looks like he’s picking random arguments to argue on.

I'm trying not to get in the way too much because they need to answer the parts that are directed to them. I feel that some people are not looking at this exchange enough, or at least we don't know if they are or not. But we are getting a good look at both of them and I think they could both be town.

Electra and skillit need to post more.

[Jahudo]

My current feelings: Electra, iLord look town; eldarad, incog and spring I feel gut town; skillet, TDC and sthar are neutral; RR and crazy getting slight scum. I don't have a read on fuzzy.

@Electra: Can you explain how you think the exchanges could “go either way”? Does that mean that either side could show to be scummy through the exchanges, but you aren’t convinced yet?

I’m having a hard time finding particular flaws in defenses or attacks – I feel like a lot of the exchanges (the main ones I think are sthar/RR, springlullaby/incognito, and a few people/skillet) could go either way.

@Skillit: Where are you and what were you planning to write at the end of your last post one week ago:

I'm not done here, I will be back in around 3 hrs,

@Raging Rabbit:
Was sathr8’s apology affected any by what he had said earlier about hating when people answer for others? Would an apology like the one he presented be perceived differently if he was more ambivalent to this more code?

So you see how by turning this into an issue of a townie who accidentially "violated a moral code" you show both how important you consider this misstep to be and how very commited to your debt as a pro town player you are for taking this so seriously and promising not to do it again.

@iLord: RR appears like he’s got a strong read on sthar.

RR is pushing weak point consisitently. That is his only point. SL has several weak points, but two good points. And reading his posts gives off a giant town vibe - honestly, just read over it yourself.

Was your latest post contrived from thinking about sthar’s alignment and is there anything from the game that you can point to and then point to the claim?

I just had a crazy idea that I might know the reason why sthar8 wanted a mass claim.

@springlullaby: This is what you said about Crazy.

Skillit, I don't care about the joke. I want to know why you made an attack on Electra in #21 and later you said that whole thing was just for clarification, and you didn't mean to provide any slant on Electra. (#44)

FOS Crazy, I don't like this. But I'll let Skillit answer fist before saying why.

Can you elaborate now?

@sthar8: I could ask this to a bunch of people including myself, but you have stated you find Electra most town. What have you thought about Electra’s posting since we’ve gotten off the subject of her claim and the boosting? How has she contributed since then?

[Jahudo]

Please explain the difference between neutral and no read.

In the cases of the neutral reads, I've seen a mostly defensive skillet that hasn't been scum hunting enough, a TDC that isn't being very open with his opinions or train of thought, and a sthar that might have exaggerated suspicion on him so he's gone defensive too.

The difference with fuzzy is I keep forgetting how he's been involved in topics and I have to look at his posts separately. Several times I think he's just come after the topic has been discussed and he adds the same info, like in the case of Electra's claim, skillit's attack. So it will probably take more time to see how he's playing.

[Jahudo]

The odd part is that he'd add the L-2 vote on page 4 with a case based on a single, page 1 action and without expressing any awareness that a hammer might not be a hammer at this point. As for his lack of pushing, why would scum want to skyline themselves so close to the perceived lynch? Any pushing he did would draw unwanted attention.

If he was aware that you couldn't hammer then it doesn't look bad, but we'll never know that. Do you think that attention was diverted from his L-2 vote reasoning because he also suspected those 3 other people in his post? In other words, does suspecting other people decrease the seriousness of what he did?

I agree, but what caught my eye is that he didn't maintain any consistency over all four of his suspicions. The way he treated Skillit and I was different from how he treated TDC and RR. I'm also a little suspicious of the fact that he basically announced that he wasn't paying very much attention, then tries to direct our attention to those four players. The quantity of suspicion combines with the explanation for the noncontribution and the inconsistent method to suggest mudslinging, in my opinion. It looks like crazy saying "Here's where I want you looking, town." And that's scummy.

No, he did not maintain any consistency, but he didn't rank his suspicion to the four people anywhere near equally, did he? Could it be implied that he was as serious about TDC and RR as he was with Skillet? The exact line was:

*coughpressure* Scum vibes from TDC and RR. */pressurecough*

which instills attention to those people without reason, but does not warrant any particular direction for other people to go on, and Crazy would have to do that himself or wait until other people came to those suspicions on their own. I also think his move was not helpful because it did not extrapolate on these people. And how's the "coughpressure" supposed to pressure? Too little for a FoS? Sidetrack: Does anyone use IGMEOY? I don't.

[Jahudo]

Later, there is a post from Incognito signalling that skillit is at L-2.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 85#1324185

This post is peculiar because what it does is asking for people to justify their vote on skillit, while he himself has made no commitment as to his thought on skillit's alignment

That is interesting. I can think of several reasons why he could do this, both town and scum, but by calling attention to skillit at L-2 I think he's trying to pause any momentum while people step back and re-look at things.

He did ask alot of questions to Skillit and give him alot of attention early on, maybe the most out of any of us. Some of it was about the show Heroes and some was to get Skillit to explain his thinking, but nothing like an accusation. I can't find Incog's opinion from these posts though.

[Jahudo]

However, I did that because I was repeatedly questioned about it by other players. What is the pro town course of action in this case that would'nt have made me look scummy to you?

I can agree that many more people focused on your vote than on sthar answering another person’s question, but since you placed and held a vote on sthar it is only natural that you would have to back up your suspicion.

Why in particular did you think sthar’s massclaim speculation makes him town enough to unvote him? Is trying to look pro-town vs acting pro-town relevant to how sthar discussed the massclaim theory?

Was sathr8’s apology affected any by what he had said earlier about hating when people answer for others? Would an apology like the one he presented be perceived differently if he was more ambivalent to this more code?

That was mentioned in the same post as the apology, that "moral code" could've been created by stharscum to turn the whole thing into a big deal that he as a humble townie sees fit to apologize for. If he'd have mentioned earlier being ambivalent to this, It'd make the possibility he's town and did see it as a big deal less likely and thus make it a much stronger tell.

Just for clarification, the “sthar” quote was by me addressed to RR and not from sthar’s apology post. I also don’t understand why you think he should have made his ambivalence to this faux pas earlier on? He said he hated when people did that the moment he realized he did it. I don’t see how this is relevant speculation to what happened.

You have a point that Electra has kept a low profile since her initial entrance. Her last post where she says "early game is as boring for scum as it gets" is a bit worrying, isn't it, given her apparent boredom with the game...
Boost Jahudo

First off, thanks. Second, I still think it’s a good move and a safe move to boost Electra. I don’t think that her low profile would be a big issue if she was not at B-1 for boosting, which has a similar feeling to having a confirmed townie. You expect them to act townie and when they don’t it stands out more. And it feels like several people have been catching boredom in this game, so maybe that inspires more boredom?

I am still a bit concerned about Crazy's lack of activity and her comparative lack of opinions...

Seconded. Crazy and also skillit I think are looking worse because of their absense.

I'm astonished that none of the four Crazy voters bothered to explain the case on him.

You previously said you didn’t understand the case on Crazy and asked to be clued in. Did the lack of a response make you think about the legitimacy of the case? What about the response you got after you asked again? Also what do you think about the Crazy case now?

Although I have no way of proving it, I'm fairly sure that you realized that your point was weak after a few prods about the validity of your point.

He didn’t unvote after any particular pressure but after something that sthar did which had occured after amounting pressure but might not be related. I’m still not sure the unvote was as serious as the initial vote.

[Jahudo]

Mod: can you prod fuzzylightning please?

I don't know if he was prodded already because he hasn't posted since the 4th.

Incog might have a good meta find on SL from that game with Battle Mage. To be honest, I don't spend much time if any reading meta but if it happened before it might be a valid point. I'm concerned however that her aggression is not the same kind in that game that she displayed here and that she might not have been provoked in that other game. Who knows. I don't think her emotion in this game got to the point where it was trying to weaken Incog's points, so I'm willing to think it was genuine frustration.

I also need to reevaluate my position on iLord and RR because the more I see from RR, the more I think his case against him was inflated. I don't think this necessarily makes iLord or anyone look scummy for questioning RR's motive on voting sthar, but I guess RR was asked things enough to make his case larger when he was only pushing it a little bit.

1. Scum are not the only ones that look at things in hindsight – townies do it all the time. But scum are the ones that most commonly use hindsight as an excuse to back off a point. Townies do not say: “I was wrong before and I should’ve changed before.” Townies say: “I am wrong now and I should change now.” Your filling the scum mold that I’ve predicted for you perfectly.

I never even said I was wrong, no idea what you're trying to say here.

A few of iLord's questions and comments on RR look to me like he is drawing conclusions without looking carefully enough at the information. For now, just a

FoS: iLord

[Jahudo]

I think more people need to say if they think Incog was playing the agitator on SL. I don't think so. The two posts she just referenced I don't think are so bad, or as bad as I've seen so maybe it's all perception. The second one I didn't even understand: Ether theory? huh? Anyway, I'd like to hear at least some kind of response from the newly replaced.

[Jahudo]

unboost: Guardian

Which was from a random boost on SL. I don't think SL was being entirely realistic at the end there. Does this meta people are talking about show her liking those long posts and more sophisticated language?

A few of iLord's questions and comments on RR look to me like he is drawing conclusions without looking carefully enough at the information. For now, just a
FoS: iLord

Um, that's not a scumtell.

Um, I think scum and town could draw conclusions without looking into the info but scum know who's not scum and have to make them look scum somehow.

@The Rest of the Town: Do you think Guilt is indictive of scum?

If it's guilt of a mislynch or something and feels out of character, like acted or something, then I might think it's suspicious. What sthar did was a "oops my bad, moving on now" kind of thing and don't think it is indicative of alignment.

[Jahudo]

Jahudo -- why uboost me and not boost someone else? No one you find likely to be town?

The boost started out as random and although I began to think SL was town, I’d been growing more confused with her reactions and I’m still catching up with your recent posts although I will say that I disagree with the argument that you are suspecting Incog in the same manner as SL did or that it is scummy to pick up where SL left off. The suspicions brought up between SL and Incog should be answered and not dropped just because SL is gone.

And I’ll probably make a second boost after I do a finish a re-read of the last few pages.

I would like everyone to let the group know what they think about
* Incognito's dismissive-ness of arguments against him in general
* My recent points against Incognito
* Incognito in general

1. When SL first called Incog passive I read his reaction as townish and didn’t see how his posts could be called passive since then. I also think she called him out for it so early in the game that there were other reserved and cautious, or simply inactive, players that you could also prod into getting a better read. I also didn’t agree with her read on him as it progressed.
2. I don’t think that he’s entirely dismissive of arguments against him but his personality may account for how he was insulting to SL. Maybe I could find a little bit of ad-hom but I don’t see it as excessive. What examples do you have because I might be missing something. I also like RR’s summary in post 333 where he looks at Incog’s change in attitude towards SL and also the talk about Incog agreeing with points brought himself.
3. Unless I see a strong case on the ad-hom, I don’t see how the rest of Incog makes him scummy.

But you said that I was drawing poor conclusions.

I felt they were conclusions that are inaccurate or misguided based on the information available in the case of saying that RR had stated his wrongness and is something more to bring against him, when I don’t see that it is. As a whole I have to confess that I think you are reading the game fairly well and keeping active, and this is only one example of how I read your words as misguided.

The jury is still out on Incog. Overall, his posts seem like they are looking for the kind of information I want as town, but I've seen a few examples of fallacy or emotional and strategic manipulation that make good sense for scum.

I’m not sure I know which posts you are referring to with the “fallacy or emotional and strategic manipulation”? How does it look in context?

[Jahudo]

Boost: Raging Rabbit

I like his recent posting. He's scumhunting but not focusing too heavily on one person or one point, but it looks like he's paying attention to alot of the dynamics going on.

Vote: Incognito

I went over Guardian's considerations and agree that alot of what he said holds true. There were times when Incog was using an ad-hom attack on SL:

Um, yeah, this is such weighted bombast

And who are you, the Neils Bohr of Mafia or something?

I also think he's been trying to make this game about other games and this quote is trying to defend a point using meta:

when I have a scum read on someone I'll make my opinion on the person blatantly obvious.

I just think that sometimes a defense has to hold up in the game it's brought up in and meta's are only a manipulating factor in reading how a player is behaving for a particular event in another to explain away something in this one.

[Jahudo]

@Jahudo: The second of those two quotes that you've considered "ad-hom" directly followed springlullaby's "8 out of 10" comment to which you had the following to say about:

I'm not sure what spring is trying to say with "8 out of 10 persons reserving judgment are scum...". If she said something like "I think people who reserve judgment are anti-town" it wouldn't sound like a baseless accusation.[...]At this early point in the game, I'm getting some town vibes from Incognito and I would from spring too if not for that 8 out of 10 thing which I think needs a further explanation.

Why have you suddenly changed your stance on this issue at this current time?

To answer Incog and iLord: I define ad hom attacks as replying to an argument by attacking the person’s belief and character but not the substance of what they’re trying to say. My question about her 8 out of 10 was that it did not explain why she sees it 80% from scum and what are the 20% town doing and where did she get these numbers. I wasn’t discrediting her belief in 8 out of 10, but based on her original post I didn’t think she explained why it was 8 and not 5.001 or 9.999. What makes it more than a slight indication but less than a strong indication.

Incog started off his response by calling her Neils Bohr because she used numbers to present her case. It may look harmless, but I think this language, and calling her attack “cute”, etc, chip away at her argument without being about the argument.

I can't see how Jahudo can say that RR has not heavily focused on one person and that's his reason for boosting him.

It's also worth noting that RR was one of Jahudo's "leaning scum" reads a few pages earlier so this recent change to actually go forward and boost the guy is somewhat dramatic.

I think he’s leaning town now. In my earlier read, I thought he was repeating the same point on sthar to continue the case, but now I don’t see his intention from that as trying to keep the case alive but to explain it to certain people. There are a few others I might boost because I think they’re town, like eldarad or Guardian, but I don’t think they’ve posted enough.

Also “a few pages earlier” is page 8.

Jahudo's random boost was surprising. Why did you do a random boost?
Also, what was your reason for boosting Electra and why?

The same reason(s) people do random votes.
Her claim and speculation does seem like a pretty big gambit for scum to make.

Sometimes I also have the feeling that Jahudo was defending Skilit. I don't like those posts which gave me those feelings.
You said that Skilit was neutral due to him not scumhunting. At that point, did you have the feeling that you were scumhunting?
But before I forget, why did you have those feelings?

Who also said I was defending Skillit? What are “those posts”? When I said skillit was neutral back on page 8, he had been gone for about a week and most of his posts were about Electra. I never said that he didn’t scumhunt. I said he needed to post more because I didn’t have a good enough read on him. When did I start scumhunting? I guess when I asked skillit about his feelings on Electra’s 3 setup possibilities.

A few of iLord's questions and comments on RR look to me like he is drawing conclusions without looking carefully enough at the information. For now, just a
FoS: iLord

Why does this deserve a FoS as town does this also sometimes?
How did your view of Incog suddenly change?

My FoS was on iLord coming to the conclusion that RR was scummy for using hindsight to say he was wrong, when RR never said he was wrong.
How strong do you think my view was on Incog? On page 8 I said gut feeling.

Mana, why do you think RR is pro town and why did you boost him?

[Jahudo]

@Jahudo:

You haven't really explained what it is that's scummy about these so-called ad-hom statements. If I recall correctly, you yourself classified her 8 out of 10 comment as a

baseless accusation

. If I responded to a baseless accusation using hyperbole like I did (calling her the Niels Bohr of Mafia, calling her superfluous question about my

own

alignment "cute"), is that really truly scummy?

I think that it chips away at the opponent's argument without addressing the content of the argument. I took your response to mean that you disagreed with her using numbers to make a point. I feel like you were weakening the original point, that scum are more likely to be dismissive, because a number was applied to it.

My response was to explain those numbers so they have some weight, otherwise I don't know what she is basing it on. That is why I called it baseless and asked for elaboration. It wasn't that I thought it was scummy.

[Jahudo]

That Neils Bohr comment wasn't the only time I can find where Incog was discrediting the argument without looking at the content. I feel that it can be a scummy thing to do but on the other hand, most of his earlier responses to SL were nonjudgmental. It's possible that his later responses were provoked by the "guns blazing" attitude SL could have but I do not think that she was only repeating the same information the same was by post 164.

Obviously, SL did not say that. But by this time you were ready to ignore her altogether. I don't know how this is helpful to SL or anyone trying to read into the interaction and gain an accurate read on SL or Incog for that matter.

She can dish it out, but she can't take it when someone dishes it right back in her face?

What is the context of those quotes? Is it really a comparable instance? And besides, that's another game. The problem I have with the way you attacked her was it looked like you saw her points as weak but still tried to undermine them. It wasn't a case of stating why she wasn't bringing up strong enough points or trying to build up weak points, which I agree to an extent she did, and then tell her to look around some more for other scummy behavior while you do the same.

Yes, of course they do, but they'll likely only buddy up to people who they see have major influence over the town or who they may perceive to be a major threat to their agenda.

Have you seen instances of this in the boost count so far? How much does the timing, or this quick boosting, makes a difference as a read? I think that it could likely happen with the boosts, but I don't see any unusual buddying going on. I also think that people with major influence can tend to be people that the majority of people think are town, which is a good reason to boost someone.

And actually, now that I've gone back and looked at fuzzylightning a bit, his FoS of springlullaby bothers me regardless of springlullaby's (Guardian's) alignment.

What about it bothers you? Is that the primary reason for you thinking he was scummy?

@Huntress: Do you see anything suspicious from Electra that doesn't have to do with boosting/theory talk/setup talk?

@RandomGem: At least get the basics out with what you are feeling. Who are you suspicious of? What things do you disagree/agree with? Who would you boost, vote for before the deadline. It is not at all helpful to have a non-contributing player during a deadlined game and I still think your predecessor did nothing substantially scummy or town.

[Jahudo]

Finally in that post where I put the "Bla Bla Bla" emoticon in place of her words, I felt like she wasn't even pushing a case anymore. She just became insulting saying "fuck you", calling me a "wuss", saying "fuck you" again, etc. If I had responded to that post with a

real

response, believe you me it would NOT have been pretty.

I agree that SL had weak points but she began these weak points around page 4 when there were only weak tells. Looking back I see that she was at least partly responsible for the personal attacks and ad-hom.

And yes, you are requited to express suspicions on page fucking 4, it is the fucking point of the game. What would you rather have? 4 other pages of inane blatter about mohinder suresh and 'pressure votes' on people who answer question for others?

I think this paragraph is full of bullshit, it looks good on paper for presenting vaguely himself as a steady and 'réflechi' character, but in reality it is a fucking fail inadequate justification for his passive play.

I think this is the first instance, and it comes after you calling her the Neils Bohr of mafia and about why you don't need to show your reads on "page fucking 4". I'm don't know what reflechi is but I can see some of this as diverting away from the argument into personal insults.

You've now pretty much resorted to personal insults which still say absolutely nothing and are actually quite scummy.

She also had this in response to eldarad:

So...what point were you making? How is it different to Skillit's point?

I made only 3 posts so far, if you can't bother to read them, don't count on me to babysit you by repeating myself. If you think that my point doesn't diverge from Skillit's, you point out how it is the case.

I was saying that during early game, there's absolutely nothing wrong with a pro-town player reserving judgment about a player until said pro-town player receives enough information to feel comfortable with his or her suspicions. In fact, reserving judgment and not jumping to conclusions is more likely to leave a pro-town player with a more satisfying result.

And you still ask the question of "don't you expect scum to lie?" but still seem completely oblivious to your own contradiction.

@Incog: Is this the contradiction that she thinks you're scum and asks you questions?

post 164 - SL talks about how you reserve opinion on Electra, your sthar vote being unpressured and your questions being ones that scum could easily lie about...

you expressly asked me why I thought Electra was town while being still unpronounced yourself and I believe that what you were doing there was trying to gauge the situation and see if there was an obviously protown reason people were thinking Electra was town before pronouncing yourself.

Is it abnormal for someone to not know who exactly is scum on page fucking 4 of the thread and who is instead choosing to use this early time to try and figure people out?"

Ok, so here is this insult you mentioned. You didn't initiate one to her in your quote but she responds to you. This has to go against SL.
My opinion: Fuck you, if you are town you are required to be pro-active.

post 172 - Incog says blah blah blah

This whole thing is confusing me now To me it seems like the case isn't going the way she hoped it would, maybe because you aren't responding the way she thinks you ought to or because not enough people are paying attention to her besides you. But at some point she stops building a better case as her first priority or at least starts to become insulting herself. So yeah, I'm starting to have doubts about my vote.

---

fuzzylightning's FoS bothers me because he seemed to create a well-thought out post about why he felt like springlullaby could be scum, springlullaby didn't have many votes on her at the time (she might have had mine and someone else's - I'm going from memory here), and instead of voting for her, he merely FoS-ed her....I don't recall mentioning that I found him scummy...

It's post 115 if you want to look over it again.

at least back up your statistic with empirical proof, otherwise I will call it unreasoned judgment, which I consider to be a scumtell.

That was in response to her 8 out of 10 thing and I think fuzzy's assessment was the same as what I had.

Currently I am receiving a pro-town vibe from incog and a slight scum read from lullaby, but not enough for a vote, so FoS: Springlullaby, for a weak, contradictory case and that seemingly random statistic.

Also I misread your post Incog. The suspect list in your post 416 wasn't in a quote box so I thought it was yours and it had fuzzy as scummy. But you were responding to RR about how Mana's reads could be dirty and those were Mana's. FoS Jahudo for not paying attention.

But still, Mana why do you think fuzzy is scummy?

[Jahudo]

I've got limited access for about a week but I should be able to keep up with this game.

I'm okay with boosting RR, sthar, then TDC in that order of preference.

Beyond my suspicion of Incog I am looking at Mana more closely because I don't like his only post. There was some summary that was all over the place in early and I think some insignificant points but he ignores the major points of discussion; some boosts that aren't explained; and some questions that seem like he's asking for information that would be known if he read more closely.

The main thing is that, except for one or two of her more recent posts, she seems to be observing rather than actually scumhunting. She almost seems to be using her case against Crazy as an excuse for not going after anyone else, yet when she details her case on him she's listing things that are anti-town, not necessarily scummy.

Do you think she is ignoring other cases besides Crazy then? Do you think her observing is scumy or just anti-town?

You have not fully represented what I disliked about the timing of his vote -- he posted right before I replaced in, no vote, I replace in, vote. There was nothing that changed but me replacing in and so it seems that was why he voted.

But he said this in that same vote Guardian post:

I think she was agitated that I found this meta against her, and she stormed off because of that. I did nothing to provoke her, so her reaction seems over the top. Also, I still think my case against her is valid.

@Guardian: Do you think he believes the point about discovering SL's meta? Do you think that before this post he was trying to switch cases?

[Jahudo]

Back from vacation. I've got time now and will catchup.

[Jahudo]

I remarked that I saw him as hedging... I think it was from when he asked people's opinions about me-Incog before he expressed his own opinion.

Is hedging “asking people’s opinions before expression own opinion”? I was not doing that when you first entered the game: post 337
In post 317 you felt people were not expressing their own opinion on you-Incog so what have you seen from others that differs?

He likes SL calling Incognito for being passive-aggressive even though he doesn’t believe Incognito’s passive aggressive because it prods Incognito and gives us a better read? Regardless of what the point did, I don’t get how anyone can like a point that they believe is incorrect.

What I liked about it was that she was bringing thing up and it was an opportunity to get a better read. I thought she was pro-town for making the attempt but I had yet to see how her argument was accurate or not.

In Post 135, Jahudo says that sthar8’s attack on Crazy looks like a very serious list of tells. I’m not really understanding what he’s saying here – it looks like a very conflicted post – he starts off with “serious list of tells” but then the rest of the paragraph seems to be for Crazy. Jahudo, could you explain here?

The tells being accused were (in so many words): Crazy wasn’t interested in the game, he suspected people without providing reason, tries to force a scum pair, and buddies up to someone else. That is how I interpreted sthar8’s post 119 because he actually said them differently and I continued my post by looking into them for other conclusions.

I really don’t like the “maybe that’s indicative of something else” clause – it allows a escape clause for him to resume his attack on Crazy if the wagon builds up. This seems to be generally for Crazy again.

You misinterpreted that. I said that Crazy’s vote did not look untimely or forcing the wagon because he was using a new point: that Skillit was backtracking. I was thinking that it was indicative that Skillit looked scummy despite Crazy’s way of suspecting people.

He says that Crazy’s suspicions aren’t serious? Jahudo, could you explain what you meant by the preemption point?

He wasn’t saying why those people were suspicious so they shouldn’t start looking more scummy just because he’s saying it. But if those people actually did something suspicious later on, Crazy could join the wagon much easier.

Unlike Electra’s posts, Jahudo’s seems cautious, as opposed to rambling.

I don’t tend to clutter with opinions that I don’t have much confidence in and this game has been difficult to understand so I have a lot of unconfident opinions. I have shared who I think is town and scum through votes and some posts, such as finding RR to be town which despite what people are trying to tell me, I still believe is logical.

doesn’t explain how RR is paying attention to a lot of the dynamics.

Here’s why I am boost voting him:

• Activity: Not just filling up space with summary or over-extending into theory or even referring to other games that deter from the game at hand, but making an effort of acknowledging and responding to various threads of discussion.

• Focus: I do not think it is a scum tell that one person focuses extensively on one person. That is just how some people play but I think that he is bringing up points that show he is paying attention to what has already happened, not just recent material or the first few pages of the game.

Now, those points are not exclusive to RR so I also think that iLord, TDC and sthar8 have made good use of their posts. I feel that iLord looks very pro-town for engaging people into matters (case in point) and only have found 1 or so problems with the conclusions he has made. TDC I think has still made far too much of his discussion about the setup, like Electra has, and I do not know if his focus on other players has been cautious or not. Sthar8 looks like contributing town to me.

Guardian has certainly posted a lot but when he started to list off things he was going to accomplish it felt like an attempt to direct conversation by bringing up large pieces of what has already been said. I think this helps the several people who have replaced in and have not caught up or are looking for a summarized version of things, but this is an opportunity for Guardian to be biased and have an influence.

I do not think that RandomGem or Mana_Ku have given us enough positive contribution but understand how difficult this read can be if you’re starting late. I actually think Huntress has been reasonably active and want to hear her suspicion reasoning.

[Jahudo]

<snip>
A tendency that has been shown and is exhibited here is Jahudo’s opinionless posts

I could say the same for Incognito. One of SL’s points against Incog in post 222 was that he asked for people’s reason for voting Skillit without Incog giving a stance himself. I did not think this was a scum tell at the time, post 224, but I agreed that Incog was not taking a stance.

iLord, how many times have I clearly avoided giving an opinion to a major discussion point versus how many times has someone like Incog avoided giving one? How do you know that the tell means someone is waiting for other people to respond first and not just trying to make up their own mind or using the words of others to help shape their mind?

So you think that pushing points against inactive players (basically allowing you to get a better read) is pro-town, regardless of the accuracy of the point?

What do you mean? Incognito was active.

What I'm unclear of here is your opinion of Crazy - I couldn't discern from this paragraph whether or not your were for or against him.

I thought he was slightly scummy in a later post but I also didn’t think there were obvious tells from anyone so this is a weak opinion. One thing I didn’t like was Crazy saying he wasn’t interested in the game when pointing to his inactivity. It could’ve been an excuse to lurk longer but I couldn’t think of anything to ask him about it.

To me, it seems he's not as serious because it's not outlined

Why is he not as serious becuase the suspicions aren't "outlined?"

Outlining points of suspicion makes it apparent what he thinks is a tell and by stating that he thinks there is a tell, those people can have a legitimate case against them. Without the outline, I don’t think he can make a legitimate case.

Also, I think that activity as I defined it in post 504 is indicative of acting pro-town and foremost searching for scum above unnecessary clutter and overextended setup talk. I think he provides some good counterpoints to your points so I don’t think it’s an extensive that hurting anything. I wonder how much some people are actually reading of it, but I don’t see that as a consequence of RR’s focus.

[Jahudo]

@Guardian:

I remarked that I saw him as hedging... I think it was from when he asked people's opinions about me-Incog before he expressed his own opinion.

Is hedging “asking people’s opinions before expression own opinion”? I was not doing that when you first entered the game: post 337
In post 317 you felt people were not expressing their own opinion on you-Incog so what have you seen from others that differs?

Can you address this? Also, how do you think this compares, if at all, to Incog asking people’s opinions on Skillit before he expressed his own?

Jahudo, why do you think your explanation is more likely than the explanation that I wanted to keep a list of stuff to do public so I remembered and moreover y'all would hold me to it?

I can understand having a list for those reasons. I am wary, however, that it could be an advantageous strategy to scum when there are a number of people that I feel are not caught up in this game and can be easily misled.

Why is "directing conversation" or "being biased" or "having an influence" scummy?

Not by definition, but having an influence to intentionally mislead can happen when new pages are made faster than new players can read the old pages.

What does "being biased" mean in mafia, other than that I am biased against those not of my alignment??

Biased = scum intentionally misrepresenting things for people who have not read for themselves and might not know there are being misled. But this is a unease I feel about RandomGem and Mana_Ku more than you.

Things to do:
1. Try to understand the case against eldarad.
2. Not have this list used against me.

[Jahudo]

Yes, he was. So what about SL's points made you be able to get a better read of Incognito?

Simply that you get a different look at someone when they’ve got a spotlight shined on them. SL was pro-town for the effort, Incog was pro-town for the first constructed responses, then both started to look anti-town for ad-hom and other reasons but that all started because SL took a new path.

When you do attempt to fabricate an opinion, it's quickly proven to be invalid.

What? Are you saying the opinions I give are not likely or they’re not possible?

Do you think RR is focusing extensively on one person?

I snuck that answer at the end of post 524.

Also, I think that activity as I defined it in post 504 is indicative of acting pro-town and foremost searching for scum above unnecessary clutter and overextended setup talk. I think he provides some good counterpoints to your points so I don’t think it’s an extensive that hurting anything. I wonder how much some people are actually reading of it, but I don’t see that as a consequence of RR’s focus.

As long as the counter points deserve attention, which I think they typically did, then it’s not bad to focus as much as he did.

More craplogic. I mean I'd keep reading, but I am already convinced. Skillit was clarifying 21 in 27. eldarad was attacking a player who had a hard time expressing himself.

Back when this first happened I didn’t think much of it because Skillit and some other people still made it feel like random vote stage and he was half-joking and half-serious with that attack on Electra. Since it was early, I didn’t make much of someone justifying after attacking since that’s how early voting can start when you’re not waiting for someone to happen. But this is just one instance Guardian, so why stop reading? I’m not convinced yet that this is a recurring offense.

And Guardian can you address my post 525?

If you think that Guardian is a townie then it doesn't make sense to unboost him in favour of another person who you also think is a townie, unless you are deliberately trying to (over)emphasise how you are carefully boosting only the two people right at the top of your townie list.

I can see how this could be a legitimate question to ask iLord if he had not demonstrated his opinion to boost Electra more than Guardian throughout the game. Here’s one quote:

@Electra: Okay then - I'll boost you at the end of the day. I do see your reasoning for coming out now, though.

@iLord, was this sentiment accurate throughout the game?
@Eldarad, what other posts were you looking at to see if iLord was starting to favor Electra over Guardian or vice versa?

I'm your sure that you could list who you think is the most town, and who you think is the most scum, but it would be dificult for you to state who you think is the most neutral.

I agree with this and the categorization used, and I don’t think it needs more reasoning if the neutral areas are more subjective opinion. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with having it that way for organization.
@eldarad, do you think iLord’s organized suspect list in post 452 conflicts with the comparative levels of suspicion within the summaries on each player in that same post?
Do you think the tells he gives can be quantified as more severe than others?

huntress is either attempting to engineer electra's lynch today or preemptively discredit her information tomorrow.

Interesting take. I thought Huntress was more cautious not to exempt Electra from scrutiny just because she’s been boosted. I agree that the level of dedication to the case at this point, after she’s been boosted, does not help town at this point in the day because we’ve committed to keeping her alive today.

Please don't forget that I'm still catching up and didn't have the opportunity to raise these points at the time they originally came up.

That makes sense, but looking at Electra will not help as much in finding scum today since she is not a lynch choice. I think there’s a handful of people that are essential to the catch up reads when looking at a lynch choice IMO {Jahudo, Guardian, Incognito, iLord}.

eldarad - his first posts read pro-town to me, but his three-scum theory seems way too far-fetched. I don't think SL faked her anger to distance herself from scumbuddy Incognito…<snip>

What about the recent posts where he questions iLord’s re-boosting and order of suspicion list? Is he in the right to ask it? Is it crap logic?

A brief summary of my reasons for voting Elderad:
1) His too-quick boost of Electra.

Why do you think that’s scummy?

4) The fuss he made about iLord switching his boost to Electra.

Can you elaborate on why the fuss looks scummy?

@all: I said I was okay with boosting sthar after RR so unless there's any objections I can make it official.

[Jahudo]

So is pushing another player on the spotlight townish?

Not by definition because I would take into account how they go with the attention or lack thereof by the group, or if they are using that spotlight to scum-interpret everything someone says. I stand by my opinion that it helped get people talking and developed better reads, but the info on SL as an instigator is tough to decipher because she went negative, pressured by Incog or not.

I'm saying that they're not genuine.

Do you think my opinions are fake because of illogical inconsistencies? Is part of it a gut feeling?

But that directly contradicts your reasoning for boosting RR - You said that you were boosting him because he wasn't focusing on a person.

Where did I say that?

No Eldarad there is very interesting.

I was giving a suggestion for a catch-up read. Those four people, {Jahudo, Guardian, Incognito, iLord} have had suspicions throughout the day and still do. Eldarad has suspicions but nothing anyone has caught from the past except what Guardian said about eldarad’s post 32. I do advocate a closer look at eldarad’s past posts but I didn’t want to say that there was anything there yet because I need to look myself.

[Jahudo]

Am I right when I think that you are trying to say: "SL was protown because she's allowed me to get a better read of Incognito"?

Yes.

But that directly contradicts your reasoning for boosting RR - You said that you were boosting him because he wasn't focusing on a person.

This is just semantics but when I boosted him I wasn’t arguing whether he focused on a person or not, but that I didn’t think he was focusing exclusively to the point of being tunnel-visioned. That’s why I said he paid attention to other parts of the game too.

Boost: Raging Rabbit
I like his recent posting. He's scumhunting but not focusing too heavily on one person or one point, but it looks like he's paying attention to alot of the dynamics going on.

But despite it being "a bit worrying", he is still content to leave his boost on her.

I think this is as interesting as thinking eldarad was too quick to boost Electra. Although to be honest I had the same feelings around that time but didn’t uboost.

We've got 24 pages for a Day 1, we've been in this game for longer than a month, and so we should probably kill someone soon lol.

Seconded. I nominate Incognito.

Post 279 you were asking people's opinions when you hadn't given their own that I had seen.

Um, I gave my opinion in that very post:

I think more people need to say if they think Incog was playing the agitator on SL.

I don't think so. The two posts she just referenced I don't think are so bad, or as bad as I've seen so maybe it's all perception. The second one I didn't even understand: Ether theory?

huh? Anyway, I'd like to hear at least some kind of response from the newly replaced.

So how is "I don't think so" not an opinion?

In 337 you expressed your opinion, but if you hadn't done so before 279, my point still stands -- why ask for other's opinions before giving your own?

Post 337 was my first post since you asked people comment on your case in post 317, so that was the first time I could’ve given answers to those specific questions.

[Jahudo]

Oh? What happened to this (bolded green):

This whole thing is confusing me now To me it seems like the case isn't going the way she hoped it would, maybe because you aren't responding the way she thinks you ought to or because not enough people are paying attention to her besides you. But at some point she stops building a better case as her first priority or at least starts to become insulting herself.

So yeah, I'm starting to have doubts about my vote.

I said that because I previously thought the ad-hom attacks were more one-sided. That was 1 issue I have had with your posts and while I still think it is a valid point, it's not as strong a tell for me because SL was guilty of some ad-hom too. But I will re-gather my suspicions into one post to make it clear to others why I'm voting you.

Mana_Ku - is she still around? has she been replaced and I just missed it? At any rate, the lack of posting is scummy, even if she will be replaced.

It's Green Crayons now.

Raging Rabbit - probably the silliest reason, but I have no read on him and it doesn't look like a read is going to be appearing, so if other people find him suspicious, I'd go for it just to be able to form an opinion on if he claims.

I really don't think that's a good reason. What if it's mostly scum trying to push one particular person?

Jahudo- I agree with iLord's case on him. He has definitely been playing very cautiously, there are several lines of him that sound like scum trying to sound like a good townie.

Do you have specific lines in mind?

[Jahudo]

How is that indicative of town? Scum could easily do that - in fact, scum want to put the spotlight on other players.

I said it was pro-town. That doesn’t mean they are town. Yes I can see scum doing that but wouldn’t they also be putting themselves into a spotlight by making these accusations? I think it helps gain a read on both the accuser and the accused.

Is there any reason why your suspicion decrease that I mentioned above seemed to coincide with Guardian's? Or am I just imagining things?

I don’t know how that can be quantified.

Now that you've conceded that one point I'll go ahead and help you out with the points against me summarizing thing that you plan on doing.

I’m not conceding the point, I’m just saying it’s not as strong a tell because both you and SL made personal attacks against one another. Yes, I still believe that bringing up other games can be a manipulating factor because they aren’t going to be the exact same situation and you have the power to defend a meta you might purposefully not be following.

I also think that your cautious play on the Skillit wagon is another possible scum tell. To me it looks anti-town no doubt but I am reminded from my actions that it isn’t indicative of scum.

I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone is exempting electra from suspicion. It's just demonstrably antitown to do anything about it right now.

Yes but I think that suspicious on boosted people should be suspicion without votes until day 2 at the earliest to avoid being counter-productive.

When I do read I miss important details/my reading comprehension has been pretty bad. And it is hard for me to "get into the game" and spend the time I need to really figure it out.

Was this something you’ve been aware of for a while? I feel that your confidance has been pretty high about what you have said throughout the game, so if you know that you miss important details when you read sometimes why do you keep calling for people to join a bandwagon you support?

Jahudo, why did you try and compare yourself to Incognito though? What does it matter if he was guilty of the same thing you were guilty of?

I’m comparing the accusations but I cannot say for certain if they look exactly the same, what with me knowing I was trying to scumhunt and forgetting to be opinionated. I think that it can be a town and scum move so I think you need to make individual judgments based on each occurrence.

[Jahudo]

Why do you think that it can be both a scum move and a town move?

intentional vs. accidental; Faked indecision vs. genuine indecision could be factors that we really can't quantify. But I also think it's scummier if withheld during a forming wagon; a little less scummy when withheld during the initiation of suspicions; far less scummy when withheld during conversation devoid of suspicion.

When I didn't immediately give my opinion about Electra's claim I feel it wasn't as detrimental as not giving opinion during suspicions.

Jahudo -- if you in fact did give your opinion before you asked others -- as you pointed out -- then WHY ask me to compare your actions to Incognito's??

I’m not comparing my actions with his. I’m saying that the accusations on me could be on other people too.

No where did you say that it was pro-town.

I said I was getting town vibes on page 5. I don’t think that’s enough time to say they’re town or scum and I didn’t.

@iLord: I haven't replied to some of the points you've written that weren't posed as questions. Are there any you want responses to specifically?

To me, it almost looks like he has implied knowledge that I'm town as he's using one of my earlier actions almost as a benchmark to display why his own action that iLord was calling him out for shouldn't be labeled as scummy.

How does that look like implied knowledge? I'm asking people to look at individual accusation and see how bad the actions really look. In that post I felt you asking-questions-before-giving-your-own-opinion about Skillit’s wagon looked scummier than what I did, which was withhold opinion about setup.

[Jahudo]

You even said in that very same quote that you "did not think this was a scum tell at the time". How does that equate into you thinking that my actions were scummier than yours?

I changed my opinion of it after the tell was brought into attention. I had not been looking at it in that way before. My own opinion is that context determines how likely it is to be scummy or not.

Like I mentioned in 613, it looks like you were using my earlier actions around the Skillit wagon as a benchmark to compare to and use to explain why your actions are not as scummy as iLord has made them out to seem. I didn't get the sense that you were comparing these two actions in levels of scumminess.

I get what you're saying. I'm comparing the context of both situations to say yours looks like a stronger tell.

[Jahudo]

I don't even remember you dropping points.

Post 501, I mostly responded to the topics with questions attached.

Comments on other people’s views of Electra, but still doesn’t disclose his opinion.

An opinion on alignment at that point in the game was dependent entirely on whether you believe scum could/would claim at that point. I hadn't seen anything like that before so I didn't know what to make of it.

Notes that he has some comments on SL’s 129 - Comments that he never gives.

Looking back at that post I don't remember exactly what I was going to comment on but Incog addressed alot in post 137 and I think I withheld comment until SL responded to that, then until Incog responded to her again, etc. This SL quote really stuck out to me though:

4. Wtf with the 'it's bad to run up on someone who ends up being innocent'. a) Are you suggesting that you won't make cases because of the off-risk that the people may be innocent?

It seemed like an inference she used just to strengthen her point but he might not have meant it that way originally and I don't think it looked like he did. Do you remember this Incog?

Note his opinion that sthar8’s suspicion is exaggerated.

What was your note on this?

[Jahudo]

Yeah, I do remember that. What specifically do you want to know about it?

You said she strawmanned you. Did you think she was more misguided or scummy at this point with her case?

[Jahudo]

Elmo: You still have Mana_Ku listed in the vote count.

Why didn't you say that you didn't know what to make of it?

I should have, but spending time on Skillit's attack became a priority for the first few pages.

Who do you think was exaggerating the suspicion?

RR but looking back at it the questions don't look unreasonable.

I also took another look at the following quote and am less sure that this was a throwaway comment by Crazy.

"Tempted" does not equal "considering." I was teasing electra based on her most recent post, and announcing that I see some value in the Skillit wagon. For the record, I consider my vote to still be random, but I also like the results of it sitting where it is. I don't see anything that merits a true nonrandom vote yet, although there are a couple promising leads.

I'd find this very scummy if I didn't already think he was town... crap.

But afterwards even Crazy said that sthar's defense was good and he still looked town so it's probably nothing.

[Jahudo]

From the context of the posts, I thought everyone was satisfied with a Jahudo lynch.

It sounded more like alot of people wanted to specifically read my post history. I'd like to know how you got the conclusions that they agreed with something while they were reading it.

but in the absence of a deadline, I need to finish my reread on Jahudo first.

read huntress.
read eldarad
read jahudo
(finish incognito read)?

Another read into the respective jahudo and Huntress threads of conversation is required

And don't hammer Huntress yet, I think she's like at -1.

L-2 but all the same.

I'll try and do a quick Huntress read today but I'm more interested in how her wagon grew so quickly.

[Jahudo]

Summary:Everyone wagon eldarad please. PS: you're welcome.

pps: eldarad is still scum, amirite?

I'm sorry but why aren't we lynching Guardian again?

I asked him about that attitude of his and his answer in post 600 didn't feel right. There doesn't look to be too much time for everyone to go over his today but it should be something to keep in mind for the future.

Also, I've went back over Huntress posts and my own opinion of her is still leaning on the side of pro-town. As far as switching my vote, eldarad I'm reading town. RandomGem never looked good but I think he's flaked. I didn't like Mana's limited posts but GC has looked better. Actually, I probably would support Guardian second after Incognito.

[Jahudo]

Huntress:

I thought you'd be more likely to return to the thread like a day before the deadline actually, which is about the time I would consider an L-2 claim in a 'No Lynch' at majority game to be acceptable.

Actually I'm at L-2 now and if people want a claim then it will probably be later today. I'm doing some traveling tomorrow and can't guarantee a post in the last 24 hours before deadline. So basically last chance for questions and clarifications on me.

I'm for lynching Incog > Guardian > TDC (for the quick bandwagon jump) closely followed by anyone that's not me

[Jahudo]

Jahudo, you should most definitely vote yourself to avoid getting us a no lynch, as well as claiming.

Good advice, but I'll do this instead. And you say claim, Guardian says it doesn't matter. Any other opinions?

Vote: Huntress

[Jahudo]

I'm not to fond of Jahudo asking the town's permission re: 675.

I would claim if I got to L-1 and someone not on my wagon said they'd vote for me, but I wouldn't normally claim before that time. The problem is I might not have internet access if that were to happen right before the deadline tomorrow.

Similarly I'm voting for Huntress because it's the only other viable lynch now.

[Jahudo]

We have 5 votes each.

Huntress (5) <- sthar8, Electra, eldarad, Green Crayons, Jahudo
Jahudo 5) <- Incognito, iLord, Guardian, TDC, Raging Rabbit
eldarad <- Huntress

Not voting: RandomGem.

RandomGem hasn’t posted since November 29 so he’s probably flaked. Huntress is the tie-breaker. If it might change some minds in 24 hours, I might as well claim:

Without a boost I’m vanilla town, I don’t do anything at night.
With a boost I can give someone pearls of wisdom.

I guess I would be given clarification on what that did if I got the chance to use it but my guess is that it’s like mason talk.

[Jahudo]

bah. go scum.

[Jahudo]

Good effort TDC and GC. Sorry I got caught so quickly

In this game I learned that Incognito, iLord and Guardian are really good on offense when they set their sights on you.