Mini 701 - That's a Wrap! (Game Over)

[orangepenguin]

confirm.

[orangepenguin]

No, I have no idea.

Vote: Ectomancer

, because people with cat avatars are 5x more likely to be scum.

[orangepenguin]

Bandwagon! Go, go, go!

unvote, vote: ora-

Hey, wait a second!

re-vote: Ecto

[orangepenguin]

Can someone explain to me why a random jokevote on oneself is any different to a random jokevote on somebody else? I'm curious.

The only time it is in your faction's best interests to self-vote is when playing as scum. Usually it's done when the scum is at L-1 and discussion is continuing. The scum will vote himself to cut off discussion, allow his team to get in a night kill and then disrupt town's momentum.

As a joke vote though, it's hardly different. The idea behind a random vote is to have a chance at landing on scum. If you vote for yourself, you're either not contributing to that chance or saying that you are, in fact, scum.

I don't like it, but I'm already voting for him, so there's not much more I can do.

I've seen town self-vote just as much as scum, if not more. A lot of people vote for themselves, to put it simply.

[orangepenguin]

unvote

I think the discussion is pointless. I have already shared my thoughts on self-voting, but considering it was a random vote, and vollkan did explain his plan pretty well, which I've seen (not the same way, but similar strategies) work before, so I understand what he was trying to do. It's not like he was under pressure, and self-voted, or some other scummy situations.

[orangepenguin]

Vote: ecto

.

He's pushing a pretty weak case against Spyrex, mostly based on craplogic, and I don't like the case at all.

[orangepenguin]

Thanks, I try my best.

vollkan and Spyrex have already presented there own cases, but I am sure you wouldn't mind another, would you?

[orangepenguin]

Ectomancer - Quick PBPA

Post 0 - Confirms
Post 1 - Responds to vollkans self-vote.
Post 2 - More about the self-vote, after the mod says that self-votes don't count towards a lynch if it's L-1
Post 3 - Disagrees with vollkan about self-voting
Post 4 - Big long post about long posts and how the discussion has been good..
Post 5 - Talks about Spyrex's response to the self-vote, and comments on Juls quitting and being repalced.
Post 6 - Replies to volkkan and spy, and also talks about "pushing for pushing's sake"
Post 7 - Long post, basically saying vollkan can "go by gut" but don't expect others to follow and how they disagree.
Post 8 - Talk about an "onus" (whatever that is) and questions for vollkan.
Post 9 - Response to spyrex saying that people go on gut, but that their cases are flawed and stuff
Post 10 - Post telling more people to contribute and pick a side.
Post 11 - Says that the discussion regarding the self-vote is important and that there is a lot of things to look at (in response to me saying that it was)
Post 12 - He wanted to vollkan to answer their own question they asked
Post 13 - Talks about how debate are great to look at personalities, and that how people react say a lot about them.
Post 14 - His first vote of the game on Spyrex. He responds to a bunch of quotes also prior to that.
Post 15 - Once again responding to the self-vote debacle/game theory. He says that it belongs in Mafia Discussion, not here. I agree.
Post 16 - More about him disagreeing with spy and vollkan about game theory.
Post 17 - And some more.
Post 18 - Responds to vollkan about ecto "parroting" his question in post 12
Post 19 - Gives a short summary why he is voting Spyrex.
Post 20 - Sarcastic response to my vote on him

It's a pretty quick analysis. Some of the larger posts were summed up quite a bit though, but you're my biggest suspect at this point, moreso than Spyrex, who is tied with you.[/spoiler]

[orangepenguin]

That really wasn't a case, FYI. I didn't really do the whole "show scummy stuff with quotes supporting it" dealio, so don't count that as a case.

[orangepenguin]

ort, you never even unvoted. So your vote is still on spring, FYI.

[orangepenguin]

I am not liking this ortalon wagon. =/

[orangepenguin]

It just came out of left field. I understand the reasoning and everything, and they make sense, but.. it just doesn't feel it to me.

[orangepenguin]

"but..it just doesn't feel it"

but...it just doesn't feel right**

[orangepenguin]

Well, if you think it's just gut..

I don't think what ortolan did was that scummy. He basically agreed with what you and vollkan said. Instead of introducing new things, which there weren't, he just went along with what you guys said. He is a newbie, but I think his reasoning was pretty okay, except for him liking my PBPA, which was just a quick analysis - analysis not even the proper word in this case, since I didn't really analyze, just summarize. Maybe it was a PBPS. According to Ecto, my summaries were off. Well, considering they were giant paragraphs, it's not going to be 100% on. But I think ecto's behavior in this game has shown scumminess. ort's show sheepiness.

[orangepenguin]

I'll

vote: orangepenguin

You have

still

not presented your case on Ecto. Are you planning to just ignore my question until the day's over, or what?

And now you say that ortolan's wagon is wrong,

because

"Ecto has shown scumminess", but you'll still not tell us where that happened.

First off, I never said I was going to present a case. I was sarcastically responding to ecto's sarcastic response to my vote. vollkan and Spyrex have posted cases already. I agree with what they both said, hence the vote. I don't know what a third case would do, hence my comment, and instead, I posted a pbps (summary, not analysis). I don't recall your question. I'm sorry. Please quote it, and I'll answer it for you. I know for a fact that ortolan's wagon is wrong, which I am not going to elaborate on at this point, but just re-read Spyrex's and vollkan's cases. If you don't like their cases, then fine, disagree with it, but I do like their cases and I do agree with their thoughts. Maybe it's not in the best form to follow what others have presented, but isn't that the real point of cases? To sway the voters. I guess I was just swayed.

[orangepenguin]

but you did. Why did you want to advance the bandwagon? How would it help us?

He advanced it because I voted it. He knows my role, so he trusted that I was right.

@ort: A future note - Don't vote somebody JUST because I do. I might not always be right, so go on what you think yourself. If you think ecto is scum too, then fine, but it kind of looked bad.

[orangepenguin]

I'm sorry. I claimed and then I for some reason, I haven't really said much sense. It appears ort disappeared as well. I'm not as sure about Ecto (being scum) anymore the more I think about it. I think tomorrow, I will look things over, and reassess it.

[orangepenguin]

unvote

- Looking things over, I realize that my reasonings for voting ecto were bad, I must admit. Like I said above somewhere, I am going to read through in a couple days, when I finally have enough free time (ugh! =[..) to properly do anything.

[orangepenguin]

Yes you were the first to vote a mason. No, your vote had nothing to do with my vote. As should be blindlingly obvious from what I said - I was talking about Ecto/Volk, Ecto/SpyreX and Ort/Volk.

Good reason? I'm sold on you being scum. If I said I didn't what would you do, night kill me? Twisted Evil

Or are you going to come out and say I'm scum?

Post-hoc logic. Town didn't know he was mason, scum didn't know he was mason. If bob is scum and I am the first to vote for bob, does that make me scum or town?

You could just be scum bussing your partner.

[orangepenguin]

I'm assuming with 10 a fairly even balance but yes those roles could throw it off. As could a jester or a myriad of other things. Wink Until reason to believe otherwise, I assume the razor.

To be honest, I just wanted to mention the miller princess, the most unbalanced role EVER.

I've never been in a game with a miller, but I have been in one with a princess. I doubt there'd be one in a newbie game (even though that's not what you meant).

[orangepenguin]

Sorry, have been busy with Thanksgiving, but will be back tonight with my thoughts. [/excuse]

[orangepenguin]

Well, when one of us is likely nightkilled tomorrow, I guess you can throw away your doubt.

I am getting so far behind in this thread, I don't even know where to begin! I planned on catching up during the holidays last week, but I was pretty busy, and I had other games I had to play catch up in too, so I kind of put this one on the backburner, since I wasn't under pressure like my other games, you know? Kind of silly. But I hope to fully committ again, or otherwise, I'll just ask for replacement, so I don't slow done the game any more than I might have already.

I keep getting CPU QUota errors on the sites server, so I am not going to catch up tonight, like I wanted to.

[orangepenguin]

don: What are your first impressions of each person, before interacting with anybody?

[orangepenguin]

Yeah, ort and I are both pro-town masons. Just confirming for his sakes. I know I have been playing crap.

I've been suspicious of him for quite some time, but

vote:TDC

. Reasons later.

[orangepenguin]

Only night. Via quicktopic. Prior to the game, we both said hello.

[orangepenguin]

I just wanted to see how you would react to a vote, since IMO you have flown under the radar. Eh. It was nothing I was going to pursue, but I figured I would give it a go. It'd probably work better if I was more involved, but meh.

unvote,

vote: Don Johnson

.

His reasoning is just off, and strikes me wrong.

[orangepenguin]

and be happy guys, claiming mason day one stops us from mislynching twice. Not only for scum the players they have to choose from became smaller, also for us. So don't be that harsh on orto, don.

not trying to be too harsh, i just don't know if i would have done the same. claiming mason is different than claiming

and

outing your mason partner, but as i continue to read i am seeing how it came to be.

myk: is there something i am seriously missing in the thread, or are you piggybacking on spyrex's unfavorable view of me based on your "gut"? in other words, why are you so convinved that spyrex is town? or is it that you simply find my posting scummy? you

have

threatened to vote for me.

In the first game I ever played on the site, excluding newbie games, the mason outed himself AND his partner on page 1, in basically his second post. They almost made it to end game. The game resulted in a tie, because the mafia (which I was in) were amazing (my personal bias), but the masons claiming day 1 only resulted in a lot of policy discussions, and stuff. We didn't kill the mason because the doctors would've protected them day 1, and we only lynched one of them because the Godfather sent in the kill without the rest of our consent.

In my case, I pretty much had to out ourselves, because we both were playing poor, and would've been lynched. I figured the best solution was prevent a mislynch, and save both of us, in the 50% chance that the mafia decide to kill a mason tonight. (my percent isn't accurate at all). Not claiming would've put the town in a really bad position, I think.



...I wrote this about a half an hour ago, but forgot to press submit. Oops.

[orangepenguin]

Well, if the mafia target one of us- our only powers are the ability to talk to eachother during the night, then that prevents them from taking out, say, a vig, cop, or doc, if there is any. So us here also could hurt the scum as well, in the sense that there could be more powerful roles out there.You're right though. Time will tell.

[orangepenguin]

Uh..

Can we have a vote count?

[orangepenguin]

I hate to put vollkan at L-2, but given the evidence presented by ort, I agree that he's a better choice than don.

UNvote. vote: vollkan

[orangepenguin]

So...I see Ortolan has two votes in this game so long as OP is alive...

Alive? No. Just this day. If one of us do die tonight though, I would prefer for them to take me instead of ort, since he's more useful.

[orangepenguin]

Yes, let's waste our lynch on somebody who is basically confirmed.

FOS: Ecto

I really like my vollkan vote, but I now remember why I was voting ecto back in the day...

[orangepenguin]

and so ecto opened the possibility of lynching a mason, and vollkan doesn't disagree with it?

Ahem..

Hmm. Scum aren't going to kill either of them. In my view, absent claim, they'd both be lynchworthy (Orto more so than OP). Basically, the only reason they are both alive is because of their claim, and that's the way things will remain into the foreseeable future, absent vigging or something.

My dream scenario would be to have a suspicion lynch of somebody today (ie. not one of the masons) and for one of them to be vigged this evening, but that assumes a vig which is very optimistic. If there was no vigging, we'd be in the same basic dilemma again, but perhaps with some more information to go on.

The only real advantage in lynching a mason today would be that the confirmation would be out of the way as quickly as possible, and we would still learn something from the nightkill/s.

But, at this stage, I would prefer a suspicion lynch.

I don't agree with Ecto's conclusion

Just to make it completely obvious

, but it certainly isn't FoSworthy because you and Orto are most certainly not basically confirmed. FAR from it.

I can't say it any better than that: I DON'T AGREE WITH ORTO. I certainly do not think his idea is unreasonable (ie. I am not going to suspect him for it), but I do not agree with him.

All I can say with the whole don business, is that I'm on spyrex his side. He has been protown in my eyes. Don is completely attacking the wrong person.

Do you think DJ is scummy?

Okay, according to you, whom I believe is scum, you won't be killing either of us, in order to keep us both unconfirmed? I don't see the difference for you to night kill me, than you and ecto attempting to lynch somebody who claimed mason day 1. It's quite ridiculous to honestly believe scum would claim mason. That's honestly the worst strategy ever. Unless you're really good at this game..which, look at me, then yeah.

You guys keep digging yourself in a bigger whole.

ecto, I don't really care what my old case was on you. From what I've seen, you want to lynch masons, because "you don't believe the claim". From my experience, scum like to cast doubt on real claims. As a matter of fact, vollkan replaced in and was lynched for that in IcemanE's mafia.

As for my contributions, well, they aren't the best, but I have been giving input on stuff. Bad play doesn't mean my claim is any less real, no matter how much you say it is. I might not be the "Best Newbie" for 2008, I admit, but I think ort has been doing a real good job.

[orangepenguin]

Instead of lynching a mason, we can, you know, look for scum (vollkan, ecto, or both) and lynch them. Once we lynch actual scum, then ort and me are cleared that way too. The only reason ecto and vollkan are so dead-set on lynching us is because we both were voting them at some point, with one of them jumping along on them because "our partner was".

Wasting a lynch and/or a vig on testing whether or not the mason claim is real is pointless. In Open 81, the masons claimed PAGE 1, and the first day was pages among pages of pointless debate. Vollkan, who was voted Best Newbie of 2007, is considered a really good player. He is good at lying and scheming, and the game in general. In Iceman Mafia, he replaced in for a player who was obv scum. vollkan replaced in, and managed to prevent a lynch for tons and tons of pages, yet eventually was lynched, and was indeed scum. If anyone can talk his way out of being lynched at L-2, it's him. He is scum. He's a lot more dangerous to have in a lylo situation then we would be if we still were unconfirmed (even though I think we are pretty much confirmed). vollkan is experienced at looking like he's town. He's not doing such a good job this game. Either is ecto. Now they're trying to cast doubt, and derail his lynch.

I actually wouldn't be surprised is vollkan was scum, and instead of the obvious ecto scum buddy, that his actual scum partner is off on the sidelines, avoiding the spotlight. I'm not sure who that could be though.

If there is a vig - don't listen to vollkanscum who is trying to direct your kill.

[orangepenguin]

Eh, still not quite convinced vollkan is not scum, but don is just convincing me more and more that he is scum. ("it was just a gambit"). I am going to

unvote

vollkan, getting him out of L-3. I don't like the mykonian lynch myself, so I am just going to go ahead and vote

don_johnson

and putting him at L-3.

I think him pairing vollkan and Spyrex is funny, considering I fell into that trap in another game, where the scum were using Spyrex just to turn around later, and lynch because of it. (Llamafluff, remember Spyrex?) I don't think their alignments corrolate with eachother at all. I think a you/vollkan pairing is a lot more likely and probable than a spyrex/vollkan pairing, to be honest with you.

[orangepenguin]

Oops - that should be

vote: don johnson

.

(forgot to put vote in the bold)

[orangepenguin]

If vollkan is a powerrole (say a doctor, or a cop), why should he claim at this point? He is at L-4, and is hardly in danger of being lynched. He shouldn't claim, unless he feels that he has to.

[orangepenguin]

2 Masons + Doc are hardly a stacked town, IMO. The only powers we have is the ability to talk to eachother during the night. It's not like we're vigs, hiders, or something more powerful. JMHO.

I think mykonian is the best choice for the lynch. Since I was kind of called out for it before with my votes, I'll wait to be the hammer, just in case, even though vollkan probably hit the nail on the head after responding to mykonion's retort that the scum would jump on vollkan ("since dj and sl are on it....bad paraphrase..lalala, I doubt that will happen")

Okay. That's just my quick thoughts for now, but I am tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiired. So goodnight.

[orangepenguin]

I don't buy the counter claim.

Vote: mykonian

. Someone else can hammer. In the event that mykonian is doctor, which is small, than we simply lynch vollkan tomorrow. It's that simple.

[orangepenguin]

unvote

[orangepenguin]

God love you OrangePenguin, please talk about what you are thinking. What made you decide to unvote just then?

I had second thoughts of mykonian. I thought for sure he was scum because of the delayed counter claim, and just the weirdness of it, but I am not so sure anymore, especially with the way vollkan is acting. I am not convinced either way, but since ort unvoted, and everyone else, I thought it was a bit dangerous to leave mykonian so close to a lynch, when vollkan wasn't.

[orangepenguin]

I am leaning towards vollkan scum though, FYI.

I know, I am the biggest flip-flopper in the world.

[orangepenguin]

vote: vollkan

He's scum. Now he's dead. Let's get some sleep.

[orangepenguin]

Ah! I actually thought we were going to end up winning the game. It is partly my fault for lynching vollkan day 1, instead of mykonian, but at that point, I was so confused, and didn't know who to believe. I was also hoping that I was going to be NK-ed instead of ort, since ort was doing a really good job in this game, whereas I pretty much sucked. Sorry. Luckily, both scum teams thought I was a good lynch, sadly enough. You would think one of them would attempt to go for ort, since he was better for the town.