Mini #704: Hunchback of Notre Dame, Game Over

[ThAdmiral]

vote: puta puta

random...

[ThAdmiral]

Vote: ortolan

Why were you defending Ramus?

I don't think defending is always scummy.

[ThAdmiral]

@TheAdmiral, Why are you defending Ortolan? He is perfectly capable of responding himself.

I wasn't defending ortolan per say. I was rather defending one's right to defend someone else, and have that not be necessarily viewed as scummy.
If someone thinks an attack on someone else is fishy, then he should call the attacker on it/point holes in the arguments rather than just sitting back silently.
Imo.

[ThAdmiral]

WI-FOM (noun):

Well, if scum doesn't gain anything by focusing on somebody else , but does gain a lot by focusing on the same guy, then focusing on somebody else will make it so that no one thinks you are scum.
I know that up until here it looks stupid, but once you give an excuse as to why you are doing the non scummy thing(as you did) then people will start thinking you are scum...

True

what about FoS and IGMEOY?

FoS's and IGMEOY's suck and I try to keep my use of them to a minimum.

So true

Actually, it would be best for the person to try and defend themselves first, AND THEN point out the flaws in the attack. That way you can gain info from the person being attacked.

Maybe, but sometimes when you let just two people attack and counter-attack each other it is far less effective than if other people chime in with their opinions as well. Furthermore it makes it less likely that the town as a whole will start looking at the only two arguing people as viable lynches, narrowing the town's potential scope.

Alright Battousai, I'm alright with you voting me. But I'll tell everyone now, I don't really feel that much pressure from votes. If you are going to vote me, ask me questions.

I agree with this as well.
A vote coupled with "cause you've been acting scummy" (or something of the kind) is basically worthless and is impossible to respond to/defend against.

[ThAdmiral]

Battouasi: can you explain in your own words why the adequate pressure remark is scummy?

[ThAdmiral]

@ battousai: I'd say something in response to that, but that would be defending...

[ThAdmiral]

@ battousai: I'd say something in response to that, but that would be defending...

^Copout.

@ battousai: I'd say something in response to that, but that would be defending...

^Copout.

I agree. ThAd, spill the beans; ClockworkRuse probably won't mind as long as you're defending

him

.

Yeah it was mainly a joke to prove a point, but I was basically just going to say that I thought battuoasi was jumping to a lot of pretty tenuous conclusions and that I thought clockwork had explained himself pretty well on the matter.

[ThAdmiral]

Well we're all clear then.
Yay!

[ThAdmiral]

ThAd, why is your vote still on me? I've seen you posting, but I have no idea of who you find suspicious.

That was probably random early day voting.

unvote

I'm going to hold my vote back just for now...

[ThAdmiral]

@ cr: are you accusing him of being overly defensive? (and by extension implying that this makes him scummy?)

@ mizzy: completely agree with your point about omgus. No, wait, mostly agree, because there are times when one will vote the person that is voting them and this will be reasonable play. I also think it is slightly overrated as a scum tell.

[ThAdmiral]

@ cr: what is fong's gambit?
Also ortolan was a bit defensive in his replies to you, but it seems like that's just his general play. I don't know, though, haven't played with him before to my knowledge.


in other news...
I doubt battouasi is scum. Even though I don't think it's justified he is "scum hunting", which is pro town.

I still don't really know where my vote will end up. I hope I don't have to choose out of batt/cr because right now I really don't want to lynch either.

[ThAdmiral]

you might as well do it ort. you should know what they are anyway.

[ThAdmiral]

hmm. I'm not sure what to think about m-m's jump of cr's wagon 2 days before the deadline to vote a lurker.

however i am going to

vote: ortolan

. I'm not sure about this, but i like it more than cr or batt, and I feel there is enough time for this vote to be meaningful.

[ThAdmiral]

hmm...

unvote

your response was measured and explained things well ortolan.

I feel bad doing this but

vote: caboose

.
I think it's probably the most favorable lynch at the moment.

[ThAdmiral]

@ battousai: I'd say something in response to that, but that would be defending...

Why do you act like everyone's out to get you?

that was a joke.

I feel bad doing this but vote: caboose.
I think it's probably the most favorable lynch at the moment.

Please define "most favorable."

the lynch i would most like to see happen.

now that you're back though

unvote

.

I mainly voted because the deadline was coming up and I don't like not voting at the end of a day.

with the time extension i should hopefully be able to choose a better target and not just a lurker.

hmm...

unvote

your response was measured and explained things well ortolan.

I feel bad doing this but

vote: caboose

.
I think it's probably the most favorable lynch at the moment.

When you say "most favorable", do you mean the lynch is the one most likely to happen or the one you support the most? And in either case, do you have additional reasons for voting caboose?

see above, and no i didn't have anything to add. it was a lurker vote.

[ThAdmiral]

I will be V/LA 12/2-12/4 (returning 12/5)

Right now, no one stands out at an obvious suspect. I feel that a CR lynch is the best, though. If he flips scum, then I can understand why his wagon stalled out earlier. If he is town, then we can investigate his wagoners tomorrow. It puts his earlier comments in some context.

I also find Axel mildly suspicious for his "townie" list, especially this early in the game.

Vote: ClockworkRuse
FoS: Axelrod

I don't like this post for the following reasons:

- setting up a binary system that implies if you are on the lynch and it he is scum you are town, and if you are on the lynch and he is town you are scum (also setting up chain lynches to a certain degree)
- doesn't seem to take responsibility for own vote: when he says "we can investigate his wagoners tomorrow" it doesn't sound like he is including himself.

I also

really

don't like it how people are just saying "cr lynch is best" without providing

any

reasons! How can he argue against that or even

respond

to that?

I hate it when it happens to me, and i don't like it when it happens to others.

[ThAdmiral]

Chipping in with a quick comment: I think the idea of lynching anyone just to find out their alignment is completely horrible. If we have a lynch, it should be someone we think is scum. Period.

True.
I hate what are known as "information lynches" (which really should be called "i-don't-really-have-a-good-reason lynches" or "i'm-mafia-and-i-want-to-get-on-this-lynch-but-still-seem-to-be-acting-in-favor-of-the-town lynches").

- setting up a binary system that implies if you are on the lynch and it he is scum you are town, and if you are on the lynch and he is town you are scum (also setting up chain lynches to a certain degree)
- doesn't seem to take responsibility for own vote: when he says "we can investigate his wagoners tomorrow" it doesn't sound like he is including himself.

No, I was one of his wagoners earlier in the day, and it looks like I will be at the end of the day, too. I'm not "excusing" myself at all. If I am setting up chain lynches, then I'm setting up my own lynch, too.

Righto.
Good that it is cleared up though.

3. Voting for someone because they FoS'd is really weaksauce.

have to agree here.


It seems like people are voting clockwork because of his play-choices (i.e. the non-vote on ramus) rather than him being "scummy". In fact it seems like people are voting for him because they don't understand him/his logic, or simply disagree with him.
can

axelrod

,

roflcopter

and

carncarn

respond to this.

[ThAdmiral]

It seems like people are voting clockwork because of his play-choices (i.e. the non-vote on ramus) rather than him being "scummy". In fact it seems like people are voting for him because they don't understand him/his logic, or simply disagree with him.
can axelrod, roflcopter and carncarn respond to this.

at least in terms of my own vote for clockwork, your assessment is very much incorrect, and i wonder whether you actually read my post.

No i did read your post, and it relies

heavily

on the assumption that ortolan, and (to a lesser extent) battuoasi are scumbuddies with clockwork. i.e. you found the entire scum team. (And now caboose, which somehow gives them a fourth member...)

I remember you did this in another game I played in (in which you were wrong) and I view it as a less grounded, and more dangerous, kind of tunneling, in that it forms assumptions based off other assumptions, and that it has everything "fit-the-model" (for example instead of someone building a case on someone else because he thinks he is scummy, he builds it against him because they are

obviously

scum-partners and he is trying to distance).

@ThAdmiral:

with the time extension i should hopefully be able to choose a better target and not just a lurker.

Found one yet?

You know what, yes I have.

vote: roflcopter

[ThAdmiral]

finally, fact number four: caboose's attempts to shift attention to carncarn come at the expense of the clockwork wagon, which is the most likely lynch today. he is stalling for clockworkruse.
++probability of scumpairage

Oh my god this is so wrong!
Firstly just because a person's lynch is "most likely" doesn't mean it is the best lynch.
Secondly it seems you are saying there is only one correct bandwagon for the day and anyone who goes against that is automatically scum. How about people having different opinions to your own? Or the fact that there is NOT a "correct play"?

and now cwr shows an unusual degree of interest in the building momentum against caboose. again
++probablity of scumpairage

perhaps because the attacks on him are unfounded? to an obvious degree?

No i did read your post, and it relies heavily on the assumption that ortolan, and (to a lesser extent) battuoasi are scumbuddies with clockwork. i.e. you found the entire scum team. (And now caboose, which somehow gives them a fourth member...)

no, actually, it doesn't, the connections stem from scummy actions on cwr's own part, and cwr's scumminess is totally indepent of the possible connections i've been pointing out between cwr and other players...
and you left out destructor, who is much more likely to be scumbuddies with cwr than batt, and you left out the part where i reevaluate my stance on ort, so again i ask, did you actually read my post?

perhaps you should re-explain, because a few people are having trouble understanding where you are coming from, and who you think is scummy (and why).

I remember you did this in another game I played in (in which you were wrong) and I view it as a less grounded, and more dangerous, kind of tunneling, in that it forms assumptions based off other assumptions, and that it has everything "fit-the-model" (for example instead of someone building a case on someone else because he thinks he is scummy, he builds it against him because they are obviously scum-partners and he is trying to distance).

how the hell does me being wrong in another game entirely necessarily make me wrong here?

It shows a history of bad play/logic. Which is being continued in this game.

@ cwr: here's the link to the other game. I'm not sure how helpful it will be though, as it had an interesting game design where people only had one post at a time (i.e. you would edit over your last post). So you're basically only seeing the last thing rofl said.
To summarise though rofl thought a few people (although mainly me) were scum and used everything we did to further prove this point i.e. if we didn't vote each other we were protecting, if we did we were bussing etc.

[ThAdmiral]

admiral: so what you've established is that you think i'm a bad player. how does knowing that i was not in fact group scum in that game, but more or less the equivalent of the town vigilante, strike you?

i'm pretty confused how a "history of bad play/logic being continued in this game" makes me scum when it didn't make me scum last time.

and ok, so you disagree with my reasons for thinking caboose and cwr could be scum together, but you conveniently left out all the reasons i listed for thinking caboose is scum irregardless of cwr.

Ok this is actually a fair point (although you

were

technically self in that game...). Bad play does not equal scum.

unvote

On the caboose thing: well two of the 5 points against him are based on the scum pair thing, and a couple of the others revolve around the fact that he is/was a lurker. It's not a

bad

case, but I don't think I will follow it.

[ThAdmiral]

@ axelrod: I can see where you are coming from as I realize in this game I have been jumping around with my suspicions a lot and have not taken many strong stances, but first of all I want to clear up a few places where you have misquoted me or misrepresented me.

The first post where he expresses an opinion about anyone is Here. And it's a pretty wishy-washy opinion - "ortolan was 'a bit' defense, but that just seems like his natural play,"

"I don't think Battousi is scum, but it doesn't appear he's really scum-hunting"

and "I don't want to pick between either of bat/CR."

My actual quote is:

I doubt battouasi is scum. Even though I don't think it's justified he is "scum hunting", which is pro town.

I.e. i thought he

was

scum hunting.

It's somewhat notable to me that thAdmiral hasn't really

said

anything about CR up to this point.

I thought that I had made it pretty clear that I was against a clockwork lynch, but (looking over my posts) I realize I haven't said this explicitly, so: I am against a clockwork lynch.

He immediately unvotes Ort in his next post, and jumps to the Caboose lurker wagon. This is now his "favorite" lynch, though, again he hasn't said anything about Caboose up to this point. One must assume that he's basing this vote entirely on MM's vote from post #195.

I said it was my "favored" lynch, i.e. in a situation where I wasn't sure who I thought was scummy it was the lesser of many evils. It was based on mm's post that showed that caboose was posting in other games but not this one.

It is interesting to me that he

continues

to question those voting for CR, without ever actually saying anything about CR himself.

To set the record straight I am fairly suspicious of those on the cr wagon, and my vote will most likely end up on one of them.

Again, this vote is quickly unvoted in thAdmiral's last post. Why? Because rofl has apparently made a "fair" point that "bad play does not = scum." It is as if he realized his own earlier point did not make any sense.

To be honest this is true...
I still believe his bad play/logic is anti-town to a degree, however it does not mean he is scum.

What about it Admiral? Who looks scummy to you

right now

(and why.)

Now before I answer this I will explain why my play may have seemed "non-committal" etc.
Basically I believe that whoever is scum in this game is playing very well. I don't think I've been able to get a strong lead on anyone, however I feel like I have been able to say with relative certainty that some people are not scum. Due to this there are a few people I don't want to vote for, and everyone else is up in the air.

However as I stated earlier my suspicions lie mostly with those still on the cr wagon.

[ThAdmiral]

The case against CWR I disagree with. Not sure why, but I think that there is all 3 scum on this wagon.

Unvote

.

How can you be so sure I'm scum when I am not on his wagon and in fact oppose his wagon?

What the hell is wrong with you?

Same here.

+ axelrod is on the wagon, yet he's town...(?)

roflcopter is his usual useless self.

Axelrod, is quite logical and pro-town.

that seems like an odd stance to take, considering axel and i have expressed very similar opinions and concerns thus far

This is actually true as well.

[ThAdmiral]

vote: carncarn

Of the people on the clockwork wagon he is my least favorite mainly because he has harped on about the same points from the very start, points which I believe clockwork has responded to. He also got fairly defensive when votes started to go on to him, which I think is a very slight scum tell.

As an added bonus he is also the most likely to be lynched out of that bunch with two votes already.

[ThAdmiral]

it doesn't help the scum because you're scum

accusing me of tunneling doesn't help your case, because

tunneling is not in and of itself a bad thing

Yes it is.

[ThAdmiral]

god this deadline/no deadline/deadline/no deadline dance is killing me

If this isn't scum frustrated because they just missed out on lynching a town (so they could use their nightkill), then I don't know what is.

it's not too late to set up a rofl wagon is it?

unvote, vote: roflcopter

[ThAdmiral]

I'd rather natirasha than cwr (and my rofl vote isn't useful), so...

unvote, vote: natirasha

[ThAdmiral]

I don't understand why the scum would have killed rofl.
knowing him he would have just redoubled his efforts against cr today (who seems to be town), and I would have lynched him at the drop of a hat if the opportunity came up.

[ThAdmiral]

Admiral, why are you entering the WIFOM area of the nightkills?

I'd rather say something about it rather than not say anything.

[ThAdmiral]

In fact I think that might be somewhat scummy trying to get us to focus on only two people.

vote: destructor

[ThAdmiral]

If there were scum on both wagons, I want to start with CR's since there are fewer players alive who were on it, which is a smaller sample size to work with and so easier for my head. I think CC was one of the first on and on it at deadline too. Coupling that with his FOSing rofl (who flipped Town), I'm happy to pick up where I left off yesterday.

I understand this point and basically agree with you, but I still think there could be mafia motivation for trying to round down the potential lynch pool as well.
I will however

unvote

for now.

knowing him he would have just redoubled his efforts against cr today (who seems to be town)

What made you say CR seemed to be town? And to parrot CR's question, why the needless speculation about the nightkill?

It was a very surprising choice mainly. He was on my possible scum list and I'm sure I'm not the only one, so it's just a bit confusing. Furthermore if there was scum on the cr wagon, why kill off one of the only other people on it? It would obviously just make people focus on the remainders?
The cr "seems town" bit refers to the fact that he

now

seems town after his claim, which would have made rofl look even more scummy.

Do you have a reason to believe scum

weren't

on CR's wagon?
Do you have a better place to look for scum?

No. Chances say there was, although chances are not always right.
As for a better place to look. Let me put it this way: considering ortolan and clockworkruse as town there basically

has

to be scum on the natirasha wagon.
Although as you say there is more people on that one and therefore they would be more difficult to pin down.

[ThAdmiral]

@ destructor: question - do you think it would be a good idea to lynch both people on cr's wagon, one after the other?

[ThAdmiral]

I don't like voting for someone for being "anti-town" in the way you've done here. It implies you don't think they are scum but will vote for them anyway. This is what I was getting at- if you thought Ramus was scum, then you should have voted Axelrod. If you didn't think Ramus was scum, but simply a bad townie, you shouldn't have been voting for him to begin with. Townies are still townies nonetheless.

Scum are anti-town, are they not? It implies that all I knew about him for sure was that his play was anti-town. I can't know whether or not the person I suspect is scum, so I go with the basics first. And to me, scum are bad "townies." They try to appear as town but aren't actually pro-town. Your disagreement with my playstyle does not make me scummy.

So your entire case now stands on nothing but your dislike about my playstyle, which isn't actually scummy, you just don't agree with it.

But if that's your playstyle I think that makes

you

a "bad townie".
Also you're sort of strawmanning his case against you.

Since we had a major wagon on a mod-confirmed town player, I will focus on what happened with the Nat lynch.

The basic information:

On the actual lynch wagon: {Axelrod, Mizzy, Machiavellian-Mafia, ThAdmiral, destructor}
Willing to vote Nat but preferred someone else: {Urza, roflcopter}
Not willing to vote Nat: {Batt, CarnCarn}
Unknown stance on Nat: {CR, ortolan}

For now I will ignore the last group because of their claims. I also won't include roflcopter since he's dead and myself since I know I am town.

Something strikes me as slightly inconsistent here. It seems from your last sentence that you are basically accepting cr as town but you are only looking at peoples reactions to the nati wagon.
I think you should take into account how people reacted to both wagons as it would make for more thorough analysis.

[ThAdmiral]

@ mm: it also seems like you did a lot of analysis which didn't actually factor in to your final suspicions.
A way to provide more merit to what is essentially not a very solid vote?

mod - I unvoted destructor

Mod edit: I swear you people must be playing "hide the votes" or something! Vote count fixed, and thank you for promptly pointing out the mistake.

[ThAdmiral]

Something strikes me as slightly inconsistent here. It seems from your last sentence that you are basically accepting cr as town but you are only looking at peoples reactions to the nati wagon.
I think you should take into account how people reacted to both wagons as it would make for more thorough analysis.

I think there's a good chance that CR town, but that cannot compare with the mod-confirmed town status of Nat.

Fair enough

@ mm: it also seems like you did a lot of analysis which didn't actually factor in to your final suspicions.
A way to provide more merit to what is essentially not a very solid vote?

Can you clarify what you mean and/or give examples?[/quote]
It seems that the reasons why people were on natirasha/willing to vote for him didn't factor in to your overall assessment, and instead you just based your suspicions on reasons from yesterday.


@ mizzy: why so defensive?

[ThAdmiral]

And no, I'm not strawmanning anything.

So your entire case now stands on nothing but your dislike about my playstyle, which isn't actually scummy, you just don't agree with it.

By the way this is strawmanning.

@ mizzy: why so defensive?

That's pretty much how I always am when people interject opinions that I don't care about and that aren't helpful to the game.

This whole game is based on opinions.

[ThAdmiral]

This is just rubbish and you tried to claim I did the same thing to CR on day one. Here's what happens:

- I make lengthy post with evidence you're scum (456).

- You refuse to answer most of it (459):

I was wondering if you would latch onto that "stop answering" line to make me look bad, and I was right, you did.

Your case (I just go down the list):

Point 1 of 10 - Responded to in post #459.
Point 2 of 10 - Responded to in post #459.
Point 3 of 10 - Responded to in post #459.
Point 4 of 10 - Responded to in post #459.
Point 5 of 10 - Nothing to respond to; it was my opinion.
Point 6 of 10 - Nothing to respond to; extension of point 5.
Point 7 of 10 - Nothing to respond to; I did already answer and quite fully so.
Point 8 of 10 - Responded to in post #462.
Point 9 of 10 - A whole paragraph of WIFOM. Nothing to respond to that I can find.
Point 10 of 10 - Responded to in post #459 - Based on a misread.

So I didn't directly respond to 3 of 10 points, two of which were basically two ways of saying 1 point (and that point wasn't actually a scummy point, just a hypothesis) and one was a huge plot conspiracy blow-out by you with nothing for me to respond to at all.

As town you should have had nothing to hide so I don't see why you didn't just answer these questions at the time.
As frustrated as you were you still should have responded to them.

[ThAdmiral]

Having a look at the vote counts from yesterday I noticed that two people, machiavellian-mafia and axelrod, were on the clockwork wagon at one point and ended up on the natirasha wagon.

Having read through mm's posts, I believe his reason for moving off clockwork is sound (i.e. that he had defended himself adequately), but his vote on nat (after having a vote on caboose/urza) is not really explained all that much.
It is only referenced once in post 362 in which he says this (bolding mine):

After re-examining recent events:

1. I like neither CarnCarn nor CR as a lynch. If a gun was pointed at me and I had to pick one out of these two, it would be CR for the information, but again, it would be a last resort.

2. Out of my three previous suspicions, ThAdmiral has improved the most, so I won't consider voting him.

I wouldn't mind voting for Uriel/Nat since Nat has done pretty much nothing since replacing.

But I still consider Caboose my top choice given his weak CarnCarn vote and the fact that he has conveniently disappeared again when my initial pressure on him wore off.

So my current voting plan is the following, ignoring game-changing things that might come up such as claims:

Keep vote on Caboose right now

If no one else votes Caboose at deadline -24 hours, I will vote Nat

If there is no significant wagon on Caboose or Nat by deadline -12 hours, I will vote CR.

while a fairly weak reason to have your vote end up on someone, I don't believe it is damning evidence.


Axelrod voted cr for a number of reasons, but mainly, it would seem, for information (as in pushing him to claim). He also stated that he was unsure unsure of clockwork because of previous games, and that he is not 100% happy with his clockwork vote but would rather that than a lurker.
I think this post (number 214) is quite uncommittal, and coupled with the call for a claim is slightly scummy in my eyes.

When natirasha enters the scene axelrod unvotes:

Yeah, I'm fairly well wary of Natirasha right about now. One post and he's off to quite a start. Thinking all the scum are on the CR wagon, but I'm townie (I'm on the CR wagon). Also has CarnCarn as "solidly town" (CarnCarn is on the CR wagon). Vote Mizzy (not on the CR wagon).

His predecessor was also entirely useless.

Unvote

I'm not sure what to do at the moment. I'm going to try to review some more, and then decide.

Two days later axelrod decides to vote for natirasha:

Well, we are quickly running out of time.

Natirasha has done nothing since coming in to make me think better about him than I did about uriel (which was not good).

He's make one very odd and self contradictory post and commented that

everyone

seems artificial.

I think I'd rather push this lynch than any other at the moment.

Vote: Natirasha

The highlighted line is worthy of note as axelod had not expressed any strong feelings about uriel except to say he was a "huge non-event" in 214 (which is the reason he got replaced and furthermore not a tell).

The final interesting post by axelrod is just before the lynch. At this point clockwork looked like he was going to be lynched.

Well, this will be good for some information at the very least.

This post is scummy in my eyes; it sounds like axelrod knew that clockwork would turn up town (thus the lynch would only be useful for its information), and it sounded like he was distancing himself from the lynch (or to be more accurate, since he wasn't on cr's wagon, reaffirming and furthering his distance from the lynch).

Thus I will

vote: axelrod

[ThAdmiral]

Having a look at the vote counts from yesterday I noticed that two people, machiavellian-mafia and axelrod, were on the clockwork wagon at one point and ended up on the natirasha wagon.

What's the significance in moving from CR to Nat?

Both ostensibly towns, and I think a scum would prefer to be on the one that was seeming not to be lynched.

The deadline is fast approaching.

@ MM, ort and ThAd

- Do you think the people you're voting for are going to get lynched today? We need 4 votes to lynch by deadline, no wagon has reached this and you're the only ones voting on your respective wagons.

Since no one really responded to my case then I don't think so.
I will consider moving my vote.

I know thAdmiral made a post about me with some horribly misguided vote attached to it also, but I haven't really looked it over yet. Maybe later. And he could still be scum too.

So you haven't read it but it's obviously "horribly misguided".

[ThAdmiral]

I know thAdmiral made a post about me with some horribly misguided vote attached to it also, but I haven't really looked it over yet. Maybe later. And he could still be scum too.

So you haven't read it but it's obviously "horribly misguided".

I don't need to read it to know it's horribly misguided. Either that, or actively misleading. One of those 2 things.

The only question is whether you are pursuing it from a genuine town mindset or not.

Still it's a poor way to respond; you may "know" you are town, but saying so doesn't help at all from any other players points of view.

[ThAdmiral]

My bet is she ain't going to say anything.

[ThAdmiral]

I'm for the mass claim idea.

Although I'm fairly confident mizzy is scum.

[ThAdmiral]

The other problem, of course, is something like the following: if the mafia saw ortolan's claim and was like,

lol gaiz, he said hes gonn block sum1 tonite, lets no-kill so teh town thinkz it was coz of his RB!!!!1!!

then Urzassedatives's plan is exactly what they

want

us to do. I suppose that could imply that Urza is trying to lead us into the trap, but as I understand it, he made the suggestion based on a generally successful policy regarding night information; it's not that unreasonable and is likely to have been brought up regardless. We should probably consider it based on how likely we think Mizzy or ortolan is to be in the mafia, and whether we think the mafia would bet their nightkill on this gambit.

I highly doubt they would. With three scum still around they would have left themselves open to a high chance of one of them being blocked anyway and then winding up on the chopping block. In fact it works out to actually be less likely for them to be "caught" if they did kill (1/9 - since only one of them would have sent the kill in) than if they didn't! (3/9).

Also, I think it's kind of silly that Mizzy came up with a roundabout way of role-claiming, and then did it in her next post without anyone really agreeing to it. The idea of claiming role vs nonrole without claiming the role itself seems weird to me, too. If the player is scum, (s)he gets to have the cake and eat it too: the town doesn't want to lynch because it's a claimed power role, but the night actions can be made up after the fact because the town has no idea what they should be. If the player is town, the town will have no idea what the actions were in the first two nights if the player dies, which is especially a concern in Mizzy's case, where she is the only claimed power role.

True. Claiming role or non-role really only helps the mafia.

which leads me to...

considering mizzy already claimed "pro town power role" (lol, scum claim if I've ever seen one)

So true.

Like I said I'm quite sure mizzy is scum.

[ThAdmiral]

I think ortolan or urza are the most town.

If I had to choose one to protect it would be urza though.

vote: mizzy

[ThAdmiral]

Just letting you know I will be away for the next 2 days.

[ThAdmiral]

I'm Back.

ThAd, what has Urza's done to look the most town?

A few people seem to think that urza coming out with bold statements and setting up potential 1-2 lynches makes him seem scummy, but I wholeheartedly disagree. I can't remember a time scum has come out so strongly and put their in-game reputation on the line, and I challenge others to do so.
Also I basically agree with him fully about mizzy.

Because that's your actual role?

Yes, correct. Note that I am not a scum 1-shot vig, I am a townie one-shot vig. If I had been a scum vig, I'd have wasted no time and killed someone immediately, leaving a night with 2 kills. Which hasn't happened.

This is false logic.
I could also see reason to hold back the ability to hit the town with a double whammy later in the game to get the win one day quicker.


I still think mizzy is the correct play, however the batt claim has changed things somewhat.
I don't like suggesting this but we could just tell mizzy to kill someone of our choosing tonight instead of lynching her.
would you agree to that mizzy?

[ThAdmiral]

Well, one of us is lying.

FYI It was already obvious to me that Mizzy was going to claim vig, had she said anything else I would have voted for her immediately.

She said she hadn't used her ability to date (I believe, I can't find the post now but I'm sure she did), which meant she obviously wasn't cop/doctor or even another roleblocker

I believe the following will necessarily result in a scum-lynch by LYOL (I don't see how today can be LYOL):

Lynch Mizzy today

If Mizzy flips town, destructor is scum, lynch tomorrow- Battousai/Axelrod are cleared.

If Mizzy flips scum, then Battousai protects destructor

If destructor dies overnight, Battousai is scum

If destructor doesn't die then he will have investigated someone else.

Either way I believe we have dead scum either today or tomorrow. What are opinions of the plan?

It is the right play. With all the roles in the open it is really the only thing we can do.

[ThAdmiral]

I was also thinking that (about the traitor thing). Is anyone else glad mizzy is dead anyway, regardless?

I'd still be interested to see what destructor has to say.

[ThAdmiral]

well that does it for me.

vote: destructor

if he's not scum then this game is screwed and town had no chance anyway.

[ThAdmiral]

I'm thinking now that mm has to be scum with destructor.

[ThAdmiral]

Good.

What do others think.

[ThAdmiral]

Apparently I have a "pendant for meringueing"... or something.






(im a townsperson)

[ThAdmiral]

Pendant thing was a joke. I have a "penchant for haranguing". If you're a vanilla townie as well you will know what I'm talking about.

[ThAdmiral]

you've got to be lynching destructor over me.

I always felt that destructor was town as well, but that makes sense as the mafia have obviously been playing well.

[ThAdmiral]

what? how am I the safe percentage lynch.

[ThAdmiral]

retards

no wonder town is going to lose.

[ThAdmiral]

well done scum. destructor should have died day 4 though.