Mini Normal 2279: VGSR - GAME OVER

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Ausuka

OMGUS

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Civ VI.

What a game.

Might read up soon and place a serious vote.

Who knows.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Alright, caught up. Stuff following;

I actually think you've got me here and that everything you're saying in 53 is true.

I have three reasons mainly for not outing the scum slot yet:

• I want them to post more before they become alarmed so that it will be easier to look for their partners on later days.
  
  I want them to participate in my survey start and if I out my scum read on them first they probably won't want to do that.
  
  I want to give other players a chance to find them without me spoiling it.

I can tell you that I'm pretty sure I'm using spatial working memory to identify where to look rather than verbal working memory.

A few things here, first regarding 51;

1) Why would you trust a town reads reads so early into a game?
2) This feels like an attempt to pocket Ausuka

As for 58, this is a bad post in general. The first point about not wanting scum to know you're scum reading them - at this point about 5 players had posted anything of note, you were one of them and you town locked the other two (possibly three?) so there really weren't many players left who it could have been.

Other two points are fluff, especially third. Unless you're looking for potential mindmelds, but meh, not a fan of this at all.

VOTE: Furtive

Serious vote?

frankly most of it confuses me and it seems like lots of weird rationalizations. unless this user is normally on edge all the time, it looks bad

Just walk me through your thought process here? Most of the posts confuse you (why is that scummy?) but you understand enough to say that their rationalising is weird? You either understand or you don't, it can't be both. Can you show some of their weird rationalising and explain why it's weird?

Bonsoir i be Eiralox and im here for the synth apocalypse.

Frogster and Mohab are lock town, we won't be voting there.

VOTE: Nuclear Ghandi

this is scum. guillotine asap.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaGAk07qgf8

Well, you're seeing the game at the opposite end of the spectrum to me so we probably need to talk. All three of these are bad.

Mohab are lock town,

Explain please.

Happy to take the lock town read on yourself? Do you think you have been that townie?

Hi.

VOTE: Nuclear Gandhi

Serious vote?

Here are some reads of mine.

Consensus (or close to consensus) reads I have:

Frogsterking, Ausuka, Inutile, Hoppip Town

Reads that aren't consensus (I think):

Nuclear Ghandhi Town, Mohab sus, DeltaWave sus

i would rather this not continue to detract from us finding mafias

This has big "how do you do fellow kids" energy

VOTE: Inutile

I sus DeltaWave for this, and I think their delayed omgus style interaction with hoppip (83) also is mafia.

VOTE: DeltaWave

We're viewing the game almost identically, I like this. Just Frog being the outlier.

I'd also like Greeting to elaborate on their reads I guess

VOTE: furtiveglance

I like this best for now

Hi Ausuka, I think you're town and this is a bad vote. Change it please?

I sus DeltaWave for this, and I think their delayed omgus style interaction with hoppip (83) also is mafia.

VOTE: DeltaWave

this is the kind of nonsensical thing that makes you read as town tbh

This makes no sense at all and further intensifies my scum read on you.

Once I saw Eir and Greeting both voted Ghandi I interpreted that as a sign that something was wrong. I reflected on why they may have done that. I realized that Ghandi is attempting to aggressively manipulate as many players as possible and that my initial Townread on them was naive. I believe Ghandi is either a manipulative Townie or a scum slot. In other words, I don't trust Ghandi regardless of their alignment, and I believe their alignment in this case may be scum, because even though it may be NAI for them to be manipulative, the way they're being manipulative in this game doesn't help them to collect AI information about other players.

Why do Eir and Greeting influence your read here? They've barely done anything.

Can you show examples of Ghandi being manipulative please?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Alright, some reads because reads are good;

Town - Hoppip, Inutile, Furtive, Ausuka
Maybe town - Ghandi
Null - Hutmeil, Greeting, Juice
Maybe scum - Eira, Mohab
Scum - Frog and Delta

VOTE: Delta

[BlueBloodedToffee]

But both Eir and Greeting have produced very little and you appear to just believe both are town and I'm wondering what's enabled you to get those reads?

I mean, you're saying he is being manipulative and I'm just asking you to show it? Why is that so difficult?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Ausuka, can you talk to me about why Furtive is scum please?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Sorry for lack of activity recently, will catch up when I can

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Juice

Highly likely to be scum. 5 days in and 0 game solving.

Will be catching up on this properly later today.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Just walk me through your thought process here? Most of the posts confuse you (why is that scummy?) but you understand enough to say that their rationalising is weird? You either understand or you don't, it can't be both. Can you show some of their weird rationalising and explain why it's weird?

yeah sure. it's weird because it confuses me and it confuses me because it's weird. if I just started spouting gibberish you could call it weird even if it made no sense to you. not sure what your angle is here. e.g. the various walls of text inutile has posted.

OK, couple of things;

I understand it's weird because it confuses you and it confuses you because it's weird. What I don't understand is where the scum read comes from because confusing =/= scummy. Can you try and explain this part again? I also asked you to show me some of the rationalising and explain why it was weird. You actually didn't answer either of my questions despite all the words.

idk this is very reminiscent of how I played scum when I first started playing mafia. i'm not going to tunnel on him but i do feel it's suspect

Why did you feel the need to qualify the last sentence with 'I'm not going to tunnel on him...'?

Vote: Inutile

I am just on the wagon, trying to lynch some rando early on good strat

How is this town? Eliminating some rando.....that's a low chance of success. Plus the use of 'just' - it's a minimiser. Mohab doesn't want to be looked at too closely for bandwagoning, and justifies it pre-emptively.

More good posting from Furtive.

I have my reasons. No one's going to vote Mohab. Ghandi is still blatant scum. looking for the partners.

Explain either of these? Can you at least counter Furtive's point on Mohab? Have you explained why Gandhi is blatant scum?

It's mostly vibes. The main thing I would say I don't like is his post pushing delta, more specifically I think the thing about "delayed omgus" feels artificial and I think is unlikely to come from a natural thought process.

Hmm, OK I disagree with this. I thought his post regarding Delta was pretty decent and was something I picked up on initially as well. The 'delayed OMGUS' was a bad term to use, sure, but doesn't negate his point.

Do you disagree that Hoppip calls Delta's post 'bad' and Delta responds by saying Hoppip is 'sus'?

Im not sharing. And i'm starting to think you and ghandi are together. I don't like toffee's entrance or wrong read on frogster but I can still sort of see town there. But you? Toffee's defense of Ghandi is blatant, yours isn't and that wearies me.

What defence of Gandhi are you talking about?

I'm aware, and I'm not as confident about this as I would be if you had made such a read later in the game. But I'm just saying it doesn't seem like your read on Delta came from a genuine thought process; if I'm mafia here and Delta is town I would probably want to vote Delta here, he feels like an easier push than other people who have been present so far. So when I feel like you decided he's scum and then made up the reasons it's concerning to me.

Why does Delta feel like an easy push? Why can't an easy push still be on scum?

I believe this might clear up how I'm reading some things: I believe Gandhi is manipulative because they're charismatic. I realize now I'm probably projecting a lot of other negative qualities that aren't there onto Gandhi because of my cynicism. For example I started to believe that the LHF or mislim bait qualities were a deception, and now I realize that it's unlikely Gandhi is faking those qualities.

That being said, I only partially agree with furtiveglance about the classification of Gandhi as mislim bait/LHF. I agree that those qualities are there, however, I also believe Gandhi shouldn't be classified that way because they're significantly more charismatic than those slots usually are, and that makes Gandhi more potentially dangerous as either alignment.

Where did you pick up that Gandhi was LHF or mislim bait?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

just a random vote - just looked at the player list and voted during RVS.

This is scum. Commenting on a post directly related to them whilst engaging with nothing else in thread.

i'm standing by my position that inutile is sus and i really don't care that it's making people scumread me. i'm not going to back off what i think is my best read right now because it's unpopular or it might get me eliminated. clearly, an inutile elimination is not going to happen right now based on how people are reading her but i don't operate on consensus like that. i truly do not understand why people see inutile as town. as i said before, if there's evidence that she always plays this way (even as town) then my tune might change but to date, nobody has done so unless I somehow missed it. you can think i'm mafia all you want but i would have picked a safer bet than this if that was the case. if you really think that mafia will wagon popular players instead of killing them at night i dont know what to tell you.

You see, when you first pushed Inutile in thread I actually thought that was a pretty townie thing; going against the grain of the thread. However, the fact you have now acknowledged this yourself and given the whole 'I dont care if I'm scum read for my outlandish scum read' schtick, I really, really can't emphasise how much I dislike this post. You're clearly aware of how thread direction and thread flow works and how certain actions should be perceived (as you have alluded to more than once already.) I would imagine you were hoping to pick up town reads from going against the grain and because nobody outwardly spoke about it or mentioned it, you have felt the need to bring it up yourself. It all feels pre-meditated.

bbt, on the other hand, strikes me as someone who wanted to piggyback off furtive's reasoning to join a relatively uncontroversial wagon that coincidentally targets the main person campaigning against inutile.

i wouldn't be terribly surprised if it's inutile/juice/bbt, assuming a standard 10:3 split.

I very openly stated I liked Furtive's post regarding you, so it 'striking' you seems apt, given you know, I openly stated it. Further, why is your wagon 'uncontroversial'?

well you never know but you are most likely right, inutile is not going to be eliminated today. i'd like to hear more from juice before i decide. BBT has also been somewhat absent, mostly just throwing a vote out there and hanging back. bbt's read list also looks incredibly "safe" and non-controversial.

In what way was my reads list safe? Was it safer than the reads list you just posted?

I believe I was the only person scum reading Frog when I posted my reads - how is that safe? Same for Eira as well, actually.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Do you still think furtive is scum? From my point of view your interaction looks quite a bit TvT.

What about Eira's posting made you think he was town from that exchange?

I was out today. I'll be able to post more this time tomorrow. In short, Deltawave has been giving some good stuff and I quite like it, enough to unvote. I think Eiralox looks worse from their back and forth and I think the "I faked a read to test reactions" is easily faked and not amazing townplay in any case. BBT is a bit sus but not enough to vote yet. I'll vote Juice because they laughed about being sussed for RVS or something and it was weird.

VOTE: Juice

Can you expand on the 'good stuff' Delta has posted, I'm not seeing it. Juice vote is good, though.

VOTE: Delta

I think it looks pretty bad that they didn't think to mention that a meta dive on their past games would be fruitless and out of date. I think that's worth a pressure vote or two.

This reasoning is tragically bad.

Juice is supreme limbait. I don't have any strong evidence that they're town (I suppose play like this is somewhat +town just because if they were scum their partners would probably bully them into not doing this?) but I do agree that pushes there raise eyebrows to some extent.

Juice has popped in thread twice now. Both times they posted regarding something directly related to them and nothing else, this is more than enough justification for a push there. They are not making any attempts to game solve.

Sometimes, scum are just bad.

delta/hoppip isn't a team solve to me, but a blatant pattern that i feel delta is trying very hard to veer past for whatever reason. if i felt town on either slot I woulda let it slide, but I don't.

I'm going to be honest, I don't see the Delta read - I don't agree that scum are more likely to respond defensively and aggressively in the way he did to you, and I think Delta is likely to be town here

I don't think hoppip is a bad place to look though, his posting hasn't really whelmed me and the push on Delta felt slightly slimy in the sense that "if he was town he would have brought up his meta in response to my post" doesn't feel like a real thought? Does anyone else, like, understand this line of reasoning? If people do it might just be a me thing, but otherwise I don't like the read

Can you read my posts regarding Delta and then come back to me with an updated read? I agree that defensiveness and aggression are not scum tells and these are not included in my reasoning for thinking he is scum.

Good posting regarding Hoppip, I thought the exact same thing.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Nice dismissal of my posts. How scummy.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Of course I ignored your question.

I just posted at least 5 things aimed at you and you dismissed them all. But I'm supposed to respond to you? Haha, get fucked.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I agree, you were extremely rude.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I no longer want to continue this conversation.

If you want to address my posts, we can talk. Otherwise, I'm done.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I don't disagree. I am a little baffled by the argument that this is scummy.

I think it's important to note that because this point has been spoken about a few times it feels like a huge thing. It wasn't, and isn't, a big thing for me but I felt like it needed attention drawn to it.

It's scummy because it feels overly defensive. To clarify, I'm not saying defensiveness is scummy in a vacuum, but this defensiveness felt scummy in this particular scenario.

An easy push can absolutely be on scum but an easy push deserves more scrutiny than usual I think

OK, but you can only work with what you're given.

At the very least, pressure on these slots create discussion. If it doesn't, that slot is no use to town even if green and only becomes a liability later in the game. Sort these slots out early.

This is a tell that I used to believe in but it kept being wrong so I don't think it's scummy anymore. It seems like for whatever reason town often play theatrically

This tell is absolutely a thing. Can you just clarify which specific part you are referring to though?

Is it the 'pushing against widely town read players' or is it the reference to their own play?

PEdit - See my post here for further thoughts on Juice, I don't disagree with much that you said.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I meant more in terms of discussion from the slot itself - they either respond to pressure or they get elimmed. If they're allowed to coast, they never get sorted until it's too late. Always best to sort these slots early in the game.

Players like Hoppip can be engaged any time, D2 for example. They can be engaged with throughout D1 as well, even with the focus on Juice. The biggest difference is that Hoppip is voluntarily contributing to game thread things and Juice isn't.

The third point I agree with somewhat. Again, if this was in a vacuum, I think I would agree. But given Delta played in that way specifically and then made reference to it after nobody else did is why it's scummy.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Gandhi is scum again because?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I see, no explanation.

Good to know.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Yeah, I'm good not interacting with you.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Personal problems are bad. You should try to sort that out.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I have to ask, why is there a wagon on Juice but not a wagon on me? this game makes no sense. I just looked at their posts and I am barely ahead of them in useful activity if at all.

This makes me feel weird about Greeting's intent to hammer or whatever bullshit: yes they didn't give a reason for you to townread them but neither did I or I'd reckon several people in here basically have given no reason to be town read so I am extremely confused what's going on. It seems like somebody is just trying to jump on a random wagon to me.

VOTE: Greeting

There is a wagon on Juice because they have literally contributed nothing despite popping into thread 3 times or whatever it is.

I find it interesting that you're willing to go to bat for a slot you seem to think is town from extremely little information.

Why did you choose Greeting out of all the people? Sure, he stated intent to hammer, but he isn't even voting unlike everyone else on the wagon.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I do think the intent to hammer is just a way to pre-emptively justify getting on the wagon. I also never stated that I thought the juice guy was 100% town, I just don't think this excuse of him popping in and out of the game and saying random shit is a good reason to vote him because that's also exactly what I've been doing and people aren't really wagoning me hard or other people who have literally contributed nothing.

Why would he need to justify getting on the wagon when barely anyone else has? Why is Greeting's intent to hammer any worse than any other vote on the wagon?

You never stated Juice was town, but you imply it by fighting against the wagon. If Juice is town, I would bet either you or Eira are scum. Scum try to avoid this Juice wagon, 100%.

You've also contributed

some

things. Juice has contributed none, there is no comparison to be made.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Any thoughts on the game in general Juice?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Do you have any scum reads?

What makes you think Delta is town?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Shit I'm way behind on this game, apologies for not being more active.

Will get into this properly tomorrow

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Hutmeil

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Why does not trying = scum?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Eira

Agree that it looks like he was setting up to claim Masons. I remembered Frog doing something similar so went back to check but it was with Eira and Greeting.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Frog was also inexplicably town reading Mohab if I remember right and refused to explain the read.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I have to ask, why is there a wagon on Juice but not a wagon on me? this game makes no sense. I just looked at their posts and I am barely ahead of them in useful activity if at all.

This makes me feel weird about Greeting's intent to hammer or whatever bullshit: yes they didn't give a reason for you to townread them but neither did I or I'd reckon several people in here basically have given no reason to be town read so I am extremely confused what's going on. It seems like somebody is just trying to jump on a random wagon to me.

VOTE: Greeting

There is a wagon on Juice because they have literally contributed nothing despite popping into thread 3 times or whatever it is.

I find it interesting that you're willing to go to bat for a slot you seem to think is town from extremely little information.

Why did you choose Greeting out of all the people? Sure, he stated intent to hammer, but he isn't even voting unlike everyone else on the wagon.

I do think the intent to hammer is just a way to pre-emptively justify getting on the wagon. I also never stated that I thought the juice guy was 100% town, I just don't think this excuse of him popping in and out of the game and saying random shit is a good reason to vote him because that's also exactly what I've been doing and people aren't really wagoning me hard or other people who have literally contributed nothing.

Why would he need to justify getting on the wagon when barely anyone else has? Why is Greeting's intent to hammer any worse than any other vote on the wagon?

You never stated Juice was town, but you imply it by fighting against the wagon. If Juice is town, I would bet either you or Eira are scum. Scum try to avoid this Juice wagon, 100%.

You've also contributed

some

things. Juice has contributed none, there is no comparison to be made.

Anyone trying to put me on PoE for inactivity can suck it. Had I been around more, I would have pushed on Mohab.

These interactions are never s/s

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Frog was also inexplicably town reading Mohab if I remember right and refused to explain the read.

No. Your inability to remember this game is now known rather than implied.

I don't know man, you definitely came around to town reading Mohab at some point and never explained it. You refused to explain your posting a number of times as well so I just stopped reading or caring about what you posted.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm definitely coming around to Mohab!Town here.

Yeah, you start town reading him after his really bad push on Greeting which caught mine, and I think Ausuka's (?) attention.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Eira, you seem to think it's personal: it isn't.

You town locked scum, with no good reason for doing so. That's kind of scummy

[BlueBloodedToffee]

BBT/Nero is very specific.

You want to talk about that?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

i think i may have modded a game once or twice off-site so i'm probably not the best expert on this. ill need someone else to confirm my understanding on this one, but my understanding of natural action resolution is that kill actions are resolved before investigate actions. therefore, you wouldn't get a guilty on crescent. your action wouldn't have resolved at all because crescent was killed. see, e.g, https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... olden_Rule

This actually sounds legit. Does anyone know with 100% certainty?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I kinda think this'll be a scum win b/c ya'll ain't going to vote out Ausuka.

Why would we vote out town?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Wait, why do you have so many green in your reads?

Have I missed something?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

OK, you just greened town reads Nero?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm not paired with Mohab so I really shouldn't be there.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Nero's push on Ausuka feels like busy work

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I don't know. I need to read the game much more closely but if all he is contributing in thread is just pushing you then I think it looks scummy. Busy work, knowing you're unlikely to get elimmed (if you're still widely town read that is) but provides scum!Nero with plenty of opportunities to post and look like he is solving.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Hoppip

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I don't know why you posted what you did Nero because it literally had nothing to do with what I said.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Wait, Nero replaced Inutile?

I guess Nero is town then

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Greeting, is Eira your one and only scum read?

What do you think about Hoppip?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Scum reads on Ausuka make 0 sense and that 180 from Frog was deliciously scummy.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

BBT idk what ur doing this game but you're talking sense and I like that

(Also for anyone who is similarly semi familiar with BBT as I am I checked and he does know how to scum without lurking)

You don't know what I'm doing this game?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You're right, I'm finding time to catch up thoroughly quote difficult so I'm trying to stay as caught up as I can with what I know.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Ausuka, can you give me a run down of your scum reads?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Can you highlight some associatives with Crescent that you noticed?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Whenever people want to vote out Frog, I'm here and ready for it.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: BBT this seems like a better compromise then.

Bad OMGUS is bad.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm so far behind in this game it's not even funny.

I'll try at some point today.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Where we at with votes?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Frogster

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Nero, what's up?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Why you scum reading me Nero?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Yeah, but we can still talk?

So I'm scum because inactive?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

i think you could be yeah. Its been a while since I did an iso dive but I'm hardly the first person to think that a slot not giving out content is just scum lurking it out. You've been here awhile so I'm surprised that you are surprised that I think this.

Not surprised, just wondered if you had better reasons.

Yeah, but we can still talk?

So I'm scum because inactive?

Are you town because inactive?

I'm NAI because inactive

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Cool. If it's PoE, it's PoE.

Not much better than scum because lurking but somewhat better nonetheless.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Come back to me when I have ISO'd the Mohab/Hoppip slots.

If Frog doesn't flip red then I guess I'll try to do that overnight.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Because I had a scum read on him pretty much from the get go

[BlueBloodedToffee]

All the way back in 134

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Plus, he refused to interact with me on a number of occasions so voting him feels like he gets his come uppance.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Meh, my reads were pretty decent given I really couldn't find time for this game.

Irony being that this was my only ongoing game and I was finally ready to commit to rereading etc.

Ah well, gg town!

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Thanks for modding, Gamma.