Mini 708 - Cheat Mafia (GAME OVER)

[Dattebayo]

So...
We have two claimed millers.

Also, animorph, why did you claim?

[Dattebayo]

And I was wondering, how many answers have you already been given and by whom?

Do you really think that's a valid reason? fos animorpher That was pretty anti-town, you know.

I actually went through the same thought process, but I caught myself before I claimed.

[Dattebayo]

That was really messed up sorry.

And I was wondering, how many answers have you already been given and by whom?

I second this question.

Do you really think that's a valid reason? fos animorpher That was pretty anti-town, you know.

I actually went through the same thought process, but I caught myself before I claimed.

[Dattebayo]

I'm not reading Animorph as scum but I am reading SirD as scum.
My read on Ani:
First of all, I almost made the same mistake as ani when I saw that there were multiple claims. This makes me believe this was an honest mistake. Also, if were newb-scum I would expect him to make up some bull shit response. Instead he kept a pretty straight story.

My read on Sir D:

1. Claiming without reasoning.

Actually there was reasoning:

So...
We have two claimed millers.

Also, animorph, why did you claim?

Becuase they did, actually, I thought we would be starting a mass claim thing. oops.

This accusation is just wrong.

2. Saying that the claim was a plain mistake, implying we should get over it.

This is a null tell; scum or town could say it was a mistake. We should be focusing on whether it was a calculative answer or a genuine mistake and I'm thinking the latter.

3. "It looks to me as if your trying to get me lynched.", while I wasn't voting for him at the time. In fact, that statement in itself is scummy enough, anyone is able to see that.

This statement is taken out of context. While he said little to accompany this statement; the material implied he thought you were trying to lynch him on little basis; not simply lynch him. Pulling quotes out of context is a scum tactic.

It seems that SirD is trying to take advantage of a vulnerable target but the biggest problem I have with him is the following statement:

Oh, I thought ani was the other miller. Well, then. Yeah, I think his claim is true, if not enitirely town. It sounds like a scum gambit I employ.

First you say it's towny, then you say it's a scum gambit you'd employ? Also, please elaborate on why you think that a claim, right after two people claiming miller, is a pro-town tell. How does it help the town. Also reply to the image of a hypothetical ani-scum claiming, compare it with the hypothetical ani-town. Which do you find more likely?

I never said that his claiming was a pro-town tell. Where did I ever say that?

"Yeah, I think his claim is true, if not enitirely town." -natirasha

Or did I misread that?

1. Claiming without reasoning.

My mistake

Well, you don't really have any other choice than to say that, since it happened, so we don't really need to discuss this anymore, since this is a fact. It happened and I find it a scum tell, and that's all there is to it realy.

2. Saying that the claim was a plain mistake, implying we should get over it.

once again, my mistake. This is why I think your scum. Your saying only one thing, and that I'm automatically scum because I claimed.

Hold on. I find you scummy, not only because you claimed (otherwise I would have voted you immediately after your claim) but the way you reacted to me FoSing you over it. Point 2 and mainly 3, the way you dealt with the FoS, is my main case on you. With that comes the claim in itself and also point 4.

3. "It looks to me as if your trying to get me lynched.", while I wasn't voting for him at the time. In fact, that statement in itself is scummy enough, anyone is able to see that.

Does that change the fact that you look even scummier to me because you can't find anything decent?

Could you elaborate? What do you mean with 'decent'?

4. Playing the newbie card.

I've never played R Mafia, and that may be my downfall. I'm doing what I think I need to do, I'm checking on all my games, and when I feel like someone is scummy, I vote for them, and explain why.

Sure, that is the way you are supposed to be playing. All I am saying is that you should never ever say 'hey, I'm just a newbie, take it easy!'. The best way to learn is by dealing with these accusations, just like you're doing now. I never go easier (or tougher for that matter) on newbies.

That said, I haven't heard a truly compelling defense against my case on you yet, meaning that I am going to keep my vote on you for a while.

I would appreciate if the other players would reply to my summarized case against animorpher, what does everyone think about it?

That statement screams scum. Look! He attached a timeframe to his vote. No townie would ever ever do this; this shows calculative planning in favor of the scum agenda. Townies only relieve votes when scummier targets come along or the current target ceases to seem scummy. They change their suspicions when the circumstances call for it; they never have a scumhunting game plan that specific so to speak. Only the scum do. In addition, this makes SirD's vote look insincere since he's so willing to change it in a "while".

Vote SirD

[Dattebayo]

I completely disagree. The fact that you almost made that mistake should not enter your reasoning, since it is irrelevant. A newbie could have made that mistake, yes, and animorpher may be a newbie, but most of all, he is a player in this game. I would never ever let an experience player get away with this, so I am not letting animorpher get away with this.

Why is it irrelevant? The fact that I almost did the same thing is completely relevant; it reinforces the likeliness that Animorpher is telling the truth.
There's nothing wrong with treating ani as an experienced player, but you have to look evaluate him for his truth in explanation not just his seeminly scummy move. Thus, my read on him stands as townie.

Ah yes, that's indeed a reasoning, but guess what: it's a bad one. There's no way that I am going to say: 'aww you made a mistake, okay then, I can understand that, unfos.' He's just trying to get away with it playing the newbie card.

Whether you evaluate his reasoning as good or bad doesn't change the fact that you said there was no reasoning when there actually was.

Why would town say that we should get over it. Please elaborate

Take a second and imagine that Ani is town. Now, he made a mistake and is called out on it. He says its a mistake and thinks its no big deal.
Now imagine he's scum; he made a scum move and invents a rationale. He says its no big deal.
Either way, ani says the same thing. There is nothing to be inferred on his alignment this way.

Now you are not replying to the issue at hand. Firstly, why would he be thinking that I was trying to get him lynched? It's complete nonsense! I didn't even vote for him! I didn't express severe suspicion! Why would a towny be so paranoid? Secondly, why would me be trying to get him lynched be scummy. Isn't that just pure OMGUS. As for that 'on little basis' thing you added, how can you be so sure he implied that.

Your not examining this on all levels; play empathetically. Put yourself in ani-scum's shoes and ani-town's shoes.

Aniscum, by doing this move would be panicing and trying to shove the pressure unto you. That reasoning is fair enough and I can see where your coming from here. But as scum he wouldn't have any good logic to support "why would me be trying to get him lynched be scummy." whole argument he presented. Think about it; as scum he would know that you pushing him isn't scummy because you have in fact nailed scum. That argument wouldn't be coherent in a scum mindset and thus ani-scum would not have presented it as thus.

However, anitown could just be self-righteous and frustrated at the fact that your pushing him on a mistake that is genuine. Now take into fact that he is a newb and you can see why he is so paranoid about being lynched; he's never handled pressure before. Thus "why would me be trying to get him lynched be scummy." suddenly can be logically answered. He would reasonably think that "hey, I'm town and this guy is pushing me on wrong points; since scum try to take down townies he's probably scum." Thus, he would only present this argument in a townie mindset.

And to finish this up: here's a little theory on OMGUS. Venomous OMGUS is scummy while self-righteous OMGUS tends to be newb town. Angry and venoumous behaviors identify more with the scum than does the town while self-righteousness identifies more with the town than does the scum.

1. Huh, what 'timeframe' did I attach to my post? You mean that I said that I am going to keep my vote on him for a while? That is true. With that I mean that I see no reason to put my vote off him. See it as me confirming my vote on him.
2. Did I ever imply that I wasn't going to do that? Anyway, what I meant is that I wasn't going to unvote him because he didn't cease to be scummy to me.
3. This is based on nothing. I never said that I had a specific plan or something among those lines. You are just making things up here.
4. I never said that I was willing to change it in a while. Was I supposed to say 'I am going to keep my vote on you for EVER!!!'? Because I really know better than to say that, even though I think he is scum right now, this is the first few pages of the game.

1. The "for a while" clause in fact a set timeframe. It says your going to keep your vote on him now but it also implies more...
2-4. The clause implies that your vote is more prone to change after some time rather than changing circumstances. Thus your own planned timeframe or escape route controls the vote rather than the scumminess associated with your target therefore your vote is insincere. And, you should have said my vote stands or my votes not moving. Or I'm keeping my vote on you.
I'm not saying you have this huge elaborate plan. I'm saying the you planned a specific timeframe and escape clause. Something a townie would not do.

What reason would sird have for pursuing animorph if he were scum? Someone said something about going for an easy lynch or something, but why would scum do that? If animorph flips town, he'd be in an awful position the next day. Towns are generally awful enough at lynching scum that any experienced scum should be content enough to just let the town do their own thing.

If ani flips town, then all sird would have to do is blame animorph's newbness or just animorph.

[Dattebayo]

Then that is your opinion. Newbie animorpher could have made a mistake, experienced animorpher claiming would've been scummy. I pick the second because he doesn't deserve to be treated softly because he is a newbie. So, how does this makes me scummy, since that's what your post is ultimately about. Are townies not entitled to their opinion?

After reading this response, I feel the only true difference between our arguments here is how we are treating ani as a player. I'm willing to take his newbness into account while your not. They both have valid supporting arguments so I'm not going to take issue with this. In fact, this specific argument stemmed from my read on ani not an attack on you. I'm not calling you scummy for this; I'm explaining my town read on ani.

But could you now reply to the issue at hand? Do you agree it is bad or not, and why?

I've already explained why I believe that it was a genuine mistake.

Hmm... that's an interesting opinion. Why would he think it's no big deal to claim, though? I think that something like claiming is in fact a big deal.

Simply, he saw two players before him claim out of what seemed nothing and thought it was just not a big deal to claim.

You forget that ani-scum could think, 'hmm he has nailed scum, let's put up my big newbie towny face', and work from the assumption that he is town, and start suspecting me for it. I certainly think he is capable of doing such a thing.
But then, you are again treating him differently because he is a newbie and I am inherently against such an approach, especially in the beginning of the game.

I suppose our argument here stems again from our different treatments of ani as a player. Fair enough, I'll drop the point here.

I didn't mean the 'while' as such, as a specific time frame. I meant 'while' like something like, until something else comes up. Why do you feel the need to think so deeply about tiny semantics?

Semantics have been through my own personal experiences and empiracal evidence been quite accurate.
But, I forgot to take into account that "while" in that context could also be referring to changing circumstances; I took it only for its face-value definition- the exact thing I was trying to avoid when I went into this branch of arguing.
With that,

Unvote: Sird

. I'm still slightly suspicious because of your first point against ani when you first listed it, but thats not voteworthy.

[Dattebayo]

Mod: I think there's a vote miscount. You have 2 votes on animorpher when you have 3 players listed voting him.

Fixed

[Dattebayo]

Two millers claiming, someone randomly claiming...

vote Natirasha

What do you think about amorpher's claim? And the counter claim?

Why did you vote Natirasha out of the two claimed millers? Why not Der Hammer?

Also, Der Hammer why did you claim miller with a question mark at the end of your claim?

[Dattebayo]

This part of Axelrod's post:

Der Hammer is also lurking like a fiend, however, in addition to his initial (?) about being a Miller, and his recent declaration that he thinks there could be two Millers. He's literally said

nothing

else.

Of course, Nat. just said the same thing abo9ut two Millers. So, question to both of you: what is it about this set-up that leads you to the conclusion that there could be multiple millers?

Might be leading us to our scum. Of course, I can't back this up right now, but it's just a hunch.

Could you clarify on what your saying here?

[Dattebayo]

How does that make you be a 'bad kid' though?

This seems false-dilemma-ish. It looks as if your setting him up to be scum if he doesn't meet this requirement; except not all millers necessarily have to be bad kids.

Anyway, answer mana_ku's question from earlier in the thread.

[Dattebayo]

This one:

And I was wondering, how many answers have you already been given and by whom?

[Dattebayo]

Unvote

I have no real reason to be voting Malthius.

I'd like to take a straw poll, however, on the following question:

What are your opinions on having everyone state the

number

of questions that they were provided answers to at the beginning of the game.

I'm not asking anyone to reveal how many answers they know yet. And I'm not asking which answers anyone knows. I'm not asking what the answers are. I'm just asking your opinion on having everyone simply state the number of total answers they started with. Yes, I have reasons for asking this.

I believe you have good reason and so I agree.

[Dattebayo]

ah yes, I appear to have made a mistake. Looking more closely at my role I am just a townie. One of the teachers favourites, an Orchestra geek. Other kids dont trust me...

Vote: Der Hammer

[Dattebayo]

Dattebayo's vote could be perceived as slightly opportunistic, but doesn't really fire serious alert bells right now. Still,

IGMEOY Dattebayo

How was it oppurtunistic?

[Dattebayo]

I still don't trust the first claim.

For what reason?

[Dattebayo]

K.

Vote Nat

So we agree.

Why did you vote now as opposed to before when you said that you didn't trust miller claims?
All I see is that DGB agreed with you.

[Dattebayo]

Why did you vote now as opposed to before when you said that you didn't trust miller claims?

I didn't get around to it at first as I wasn't 100% clear remembering who did it, and by the time that came up we got sidetracked in the whole "Why is that bad" issue.

What were you fearing had you accidentally voted the wrong person for claiming miller?

Also:

K.

Vote Nat

So we agree.

Why did you mention that you and DGB agreed right after you voted?

[Dattebayo]

Do you really think that's a valid reason? fos animorpher That was pretty anti-town, you know.

Say what?

FOS sirandalot

Hi! Sorry for the delay I had unexoected limited acces.

I find the claim a genuine mistake. Sirandilot seems very trigger-happy.

Im inclined to think its rather a scum gambit for claiming miller, then failing because there is an actual miller.

vote natirasha

VM exhibits reluctance to vote SirD but a few pages later votes Nat for a reason that existed on page 1.
Then today, armlx showed suspicion on Nat but didn't actually vote until DGB agreed with him.

Vote armlx

@DGB, why do you openly agree with SirD's case today but not on day 1?

On SirD's case:
I disagree with it for the same reasons as before.

[Dattebayo]

VM exhibits reluctance to vote SirD but a few pages later votes Nat for a reason that existed on page 1.
Then today, armlx showed suspicion on Nat but didn't actually vote until DGB agreed with him.
Vote armlx

So what is your point here? It looks to me as if you are trying to call me scum for what would be scummy connections to other players, except 0 alignments have been revealed.

Not scummy connections, but odd voting patterns.

[Dattebayo]

Not scummy connections, but odd voting patterns.

What is odd about the first one other then the fact it would increase the odds of me being scum if SirD is and visa versa?

I wasn't actually pointing out VM's reluctance to vote SirD as an associative scum tell but that makes sense...

I was saying it to point out how odd it was that VM decided to vote Nat. After being so reluctant to vote before, voting Nat for a reason from the very beginning of the game was quite weird.

[Dattebayo]

I've just thought, that maybe, because of my role, I will get Jester. DO NOT lynch me.

You will

get

Jester? Do you not know your role?
I want a full claim.

[Dattebayo]

Unvote, vote: animorpher

I will never not lynch a jester claim, even an iffy one.

Ani never directly identified himself as a jester. What makes you assume that he did?

[Dattebayo]

I also see another benefit with electra's idea. I think we should wait for ani before taking any further action.

[Dattebayo]

SirD, scum would more likely lie about their answers.