Mini 708 - Cheat Mafia (GAME OVER)

[sirdanilot]

Two millers claiming, someone randomly claiming...

vote Natirasha

What do you think about amorpher's claim? And the counter claim?

[sirdanilot]

K, so...um...yeah.

What? Why do you post something this pointless? I asked you a question. Stop acting anti-town and do something. Reply to my question as soon as possible. I am still feeling confident having my vote on you right now.

I have never played with you, but I've heard and read a bit so I am going to repeat my question so you will have to respond to it.

"What do you think about amorpher's claim? And the counter claim?" -sirdanilot

Answer.

Becuase they did, actually, I thought we would be starting a mass claim thing. oops.

Do you really think that's a valid reason?

fos animorpher

That was pretty anti-town, you know.

I didn't mention DH because he wasn't even nessecarily sure he was a miller in he first place.

Urgh, I'm the teachers pet...also a miller?

With 'also a miller' he probably meant that he was surprised that Natirasha is also a miller, as well as he is. At least, that's how I read it, if DH wants to clarify that, please be my guest DH.

[sirdanilot]

@ danilot

I know now, it was a plain mistake. It looks to me as if your trying to get me lynched.

unvote vote, sirdanilot

I'm sure your either a lyncher or scum.

...

I'm going to stay reasonable and calm here, and explain to you why this reasoning is very bad.

"I know now, it was a plain mistake." - Try to move yourself into my perspective. How can I be so sure that it was a plain mistake? You are playing the newbie card here, amorpher. I don't buy the newbie card, ever. A 'mistake' or 'inexperiencedness' is no excuse to do anti town or scummy things.

"It looks to me as if your trying to get me lynched." - Firstly, I did not vote you yet with that post. Secondly, lynches aren't the same as votes. Don't mix them up like that. Thirdly, what if I was voting you? I couldn't be sure at all that you'd be town. What do you expect me to do when I see something scummy or anti town. I point it out, and it looks to me like I did well. It looks to me like you're deliberately trying to make it look like you work from the assumption that you are town and find anyone voting you scummy simply because you are know that you are town yourself. What tells me that you're not scum trying to fake that effect? This is a huge scum tell, you know.

unvote, vote animorpherv1

I will summarize my reasoning.

1. Claiming without reasoning.
2. Saying that the claim was a plain mistake, implying we should get over it.
3. "It looks to me as if your trying to get me lynched.", while I wasn't voting for him at the time. In fact, that statement in itself is scummy enough, anyone is able to see that.

I am skeptical of ani's claim, but I find it possible for there to be other millers.

Could you define 'skeptical', and take into account the case that I have in this very post against him? Could you elaborate on how you agree and disagree on my points?
If you find it possible for there to be other millers, what do you think about DH voting you for claiming miller? He is clearly not sharing your view.

[sirdanilot]

Do you really think that's a valid reason? fos animorpher That was pretty anti-town, you know.

Say what?

FOS sirandalot

Could you elaborate on your reasoning to FoS me, since you just FoSed without any reasoning whatsoever.

I actually went through the same thought process, but I caught myself before I claimed.

What are you trying to say with this?

[sirdanilot]

I think animorph is just new... I don't see any reason for scum to claim/fake claim so early.

@ Mana_Ku - what game? what approach? xD

Refer to this, electra.

"I know now, it was a plain mistake." - Try to move yourself into my perspective. How can I be so sure that it was a plain mistake? You are playing the newbie card here, amorpher. I don't buy the newbie card, ever. A 'mistake' or 'inexperiencedness' is no excuse to do anti town or scummy things.

The newbie card is never, ever, ever an excuse. Do you know why, electra? Because it can be faked. It cannot be controlled. It's an out of game influence. I expect anyone, even newbies, to be able to play the game, since this is not a newbie game, this is a mini theme game. You are just helping him to hide behind his newbishness.

[sirdanilot]

How, exactly, is claiming scummy?

Why would a towny give out information like that if there is no reason to? It doesn't fit with animorpherv1-town. It does fit ani-scum, though. He wants to abuse his 'newbie' imago and claims, then says that he just followed the rest and that we should get over his mistake. A very smart scum gambit. I am not buying it at all.

Also, please explain your vote.

Actually, you could call me new to MS Mafia. I'm just getting used to the pace of certain games.

I don't care. I do not treat newbies differently than experienced players. You are expected not to be a newbie outside of newbie games. Since you are continuing trying to use the newbie card, I think I am going to keep my vote on you for now, since I think we're onto something here.

I'm also going to say this to you as a kind of IC: If you are not used to certain games yet after your first newbie game, the best (and only) way to learn is to play in real games. However, you should try to make them forget that you are a newbie. The best way to learn is not to get treated differently for being a newbie, but to get treated the same as the more experienced players. And that is what I do. I never ever buy the newbie card. I will treat you exactly the same as anyone else.

#2 was correct. It

was

a plain mistake and you

should

get over it

You say that it was a plain mistake. I do not believe you, because your play is scummy. That is why I am not getting over it. Also, could you defend yourself against my summarized case on you?

1. Claiming without reasoning.
2. Saying that the claim was a plain mistake, implying we should get over it.
3. "It looks to me as if your trying to get me lynched.", while I wasn't voting for him at the time. In fact, that statement in itself is scummy enough, anyone is able to see that.
4. Playing the newbie card.

Oh, I thought ani was the other miller. Well, then. Yeah, I think his claim is true, if not enitirely town. It sounds like a scum gambit I employ.

First you say it's towny, then you say it's a scum gambit you'd employ? Also, please elaborate on why you think that a claim, right after two people claiming miller, is a pro-town tell. How does it help the town. Also reply to the image of a hypothetical ani-scum claiming, compare it with the hypothetical ani-town. Which do you find more likely?

[sirdanilot]

Oh, I thought ani was the other miller. Well, then. Yeah, I think his claim is true, if not enitirely town. It sounds like a scum gambit I employ.

First you say it's towny, then you say it's a scum gambit you'd employ? Also, please elaborate on why you think that a claim, right after two people claiming miller, is a pro-town tell. How does it help the town. Also reply to the image of a hypothetical ani-scum claiming, compare it with the hypothetical ani-town. Which do you find more likely?

I never said that his claiming was a pro-town tell. Where did I ever say that?

"Yeah, I think his claim is true, if not enitirely town." -natirasha

Or did I misread that?

1. Claiming without reasoning.

My mistake

Well, you don't really have any other choice than to say that, since it happened, so we don't really need to discuss this anymore, since this is a fact. It happened and I find it a scum tell, and that's all there is to it realy.

2. Saying that the claim was a plain mistake, implying we should get over it.

once again, my mistake. This is why I think your scum. Your saying only one thing, and that I'm automatically scum because I claimed.

Hold on. I find you scummy, not only because you claimed (otherwise I would have voted you immediately after your claim) but the way you reacted to me FoSing you over it. Point 2 and mainly 3, the way you dealt with the FoS, is my main case on you. With that comes the claim in itself and also point 4.

3. "It looks to me as if your trying to get me lynched.", while I wasn't voting for him at the time. In fact, that statement in itself is scummy enough, anyone is able to see that.

Does that change the fact that you look even scummier to me because you can't find anything decent?

Could you elaborate? What do you mean with 'decent'?

4. Playing the newbie card.

I've never played R Mafia, and that may be my downfall. I'm doing what I think I need to do, I'm checking on all my games, and when I feel like someone is scummy, I vote for them, and explain why.

Sure, that is the way you are supposed to be playing. All I am saying is that you should never ever say 'hey, I'm just a newbie, take it easy!'. The best way to learn is by dealing with these accusations, just like you're doing now. I never go easier (or tougher for that matter) on newbies.

That said, I haven't heard a truly compelling defense against my case on you yet, meaning that I am going to keep my vote on you for a while.

I would appreciate if the other players would reply to my summarized case against animorpher, what does everyone think about it?

[sirdanilot]

If you think he's scum, Natirasha, then why are you not voting him?

Also, sird, your case boils down to him playing the newbie card and trying to get away with it as scum. I feel like if he is a newbie and did make a mistake, he would have the same actions. I don't see any difference, so I don't view it as a scum tell.

I agree Natirasha should elaborate on that.

Why would a newbie be allowed to get away with the mistake. What if he wasn't a newbie? I don't let the factor of him being a newbie enter my reasoning to vote him, certainly not in the beginning of the game.

So, let me ask you a question. Would you let animorpher get away with that if he were an experienced player?

I'm not reading Animorph as scum but I am reading SirD as scum.
My read on Ani:
First of all, I almost made the same mistake as ani when I saw that there were multiple claims. This makes me believe this was an honest mistake. Also, if were newb-scum I would expect him to make up some bull shit response. Instead he kept a pretty straight story.

I completely disagree. The fact that you almost made that mistake should not enter your reasoning, since it is irrelevant. A newbie could have made that mistake, yes, and animorpher may be a newbie, but most of all, he is a player in this game. I would never ever let an experience player get away with this, so I am not letting animorpher get away with this.

My read on Sir D:

1. Claiming without reasoning.

Actually there was reasoning:

So...
We have two claimed millers.

Also, animorph, why did you claim?

Becuase they did, actually, I thought we would be starting a mass claim thing. oops.

This accusation is just wrong.

Ah yes, that's indeed a reasoning, but guess what: it's a bad one. There's no way that I am going to say: 'aww you made a mistake, okay then, I can understand that, unfos.' He's just trying to get away with it playing the newbie card.

2. Saying that the claim was a plain mistake, implying we should get over it.

This is a null tell; scum or town could say it was a mistake. We should be focusing on whether it was a calculative answer or a genuine mistake and I'm thinking the latter.

Why would town say that we should get over it. Please elaborate.

3. "It looks to me as if your trying to get me lynched.", while I wasn't voting for him at the time. In fact, that statement in itself is scummy enough, anyone is able to see that.

This statement is taken out of context. While he said little to accompany this statement; the material implied he thought you were trying to lynch him on little basis; not simply lynch him. Pulling quotes out of context is a scum tactic.

Now you are not replying to the issue at hand. Firstly, why would he be thinking that I was trying to get him lynched? It's complete nonsense! I didn't even vote for him! I didn't express severe suspicion! Why would a towny be so paranoid? Secondly, why would me be trying to get him lynched be scummy. Isn't that just pure OMGUS. As for that 'on little basis' thing you added, how can you be so sure he implied that.

It seems that SirD is trying to take advantage of a vulnerable target but the biggest problem I have with him is the following statement:

No, I am not trying to take advantage of him. I am trying to get discussion going, to get information out of him, and I think he's scummy for saying those things.

That said, I haven't heard a truly compelling defense against my case on you yet, meaning that I am going to keep my vote on you for a while.

I would appreciate if the other players would reply to my summarized case against animorpher, what does everyone think about it?

That statement screams scum. Look! (1)He attached a timeframe to his vote. No townie would ever ever do this; this shows calculative planning in favor of the scum agenda. (2)Townies only relieve votes when scummier targets come along or the current target ceases to seem scummy. (3)They change their suspicions when the circumstances call for it; they never have a scumhunting game plan that specific so to speak. Only the scum do. (4)In addition, this makes SirD's vote look insincere since he's so willing to change it in a "while".

Vote SirD

1. Huh, what 'timeframe' did I attach to my post? You mean that I said that I am going to keep my vote on him for a while? That is true. With that I mean that I see no reason to put my vote off him. See it as me confirming my vote on him.
2. Did I ever imply that I wasn't going to do that? Anyway, what I meant is that I wasn't going to unvote him because he didn't cease to be scummy to me.
3. This is based on nothing. I never said that I had a specific plan or something among those lines. You are just making things up here.
4. I never said that I was willing to change it in a while. Was I supposed to say 'I am going to keep my vote on you for EVER!!!'? Because I really know better than to say that, even though I think he is scum right now, this is the first few pages of the game.

When scumhunting, you shouldn't start assuming that your target is scum and you shouldn't start making up things that I really didn't mean with my post. Your best point is probably your reply to point 2, I am very interested in hearing another side of that story.

[sirdanilot]

I completely disagree. The fact that you almost made that mistake should not enter your reasoning, since it is irrelevant. A newbie could have made that mistake, yes, and animorpher may be a newbie, but most of all, he is a player in this game. I would never ever let an experience player get away with this, so I am not letting animorpher get away with this.

Why is it irrelevant? The fact that I almost did the same thing is completely relevant; it reinforces the likeliness that Animorpher is telling the truth.
There's nothing wrong with treating ani as an experienced player, but you have to look evaluate him for his truth in explanation not just his seeminly scummy move. Thus, my read on him stands as townie.

Then that is your opinion. Newbie animorpher could have made a mistake, experienced animorpher claiming would've been scummy. I pick the second because he doesn't deserve to be treated softly because he is a newbie. So, how does this makes me scummy, since that's what your post is ultimately about. Are townies not entitled to their opinion?

Ah yes, that's indeed a reasoning, but guess what: it's a bad one. There's no way that I am going to say: 'aww you made a mistake, okay then, I can understand that, unfos.' He's just trying to get away with it playing the newbie card.

Whether you evaluate his reasoning as good or bad doesn't change the fact that you said there was no reasoning when there actually was.

Okay sure, I may have misphrased that, I'll update my list. But could you now reply to the issue at hand? Do you agree it is bad or not, and why?

Why would town say that we should get over it. Please elaborate

Take a second and imagine that Ani is town. Now, he made a mistake and is called out on it. He says its a mistake and thinks its no big deal.
Now imagine he's scum; he made a scum move and invents a rationale. He says its no big deal.
Either way, ani says the same thing. There is nothing to be inferred on his alignment this way.

Hmm... that's an interesting opinion. Why would he think it's no big deal to claim, though? I think that something like claiming is in fact a big deal.

Now you are not replying to the issue at hand. Firstly, why would he be thinking that I was trying to get him lynched? It's complete nonsense! I didn't even vote for him! I didn't express severe suspicion! Why would a towny be so paranoid? Secondly, why would me be trying to get him lynched be scummy. Isn't that just pure OMGUS. As for that 'on little basis' thing you added, how can you be so sure he implied that.

Your not examining this on all levels; play empathetically. Put yourself in ani-scum's shoes and ani-town's shoes.

Isn't that what I am doing.

Aniscum, by doing this move would be panicing and trying to shove the pressure unto you. That reasoning is fair enough and I can see where your coming from here. But as scum he wouldn't have any good logic to support "why would me be trying to get him lynched be scummy." whole argument he presented. Think about it; as scum he would know that you pushing him isn't scummy because you have in fact nailed scum. That argument wouldn't be coherent in a scum mindset and thus ani-scum would not have presented it as thus.

You forget that ani-scum could think, 'hmm he has nailed scum, let's put up my big newbie towny face', and work from the assumption that he is town, and start suspecting me for it. I certainly think he is capable of doing such a thing.

However, anitown could just be self-righteous and frustrated at the fact that your pushing him on a mistake that is genuine. Now take into fact that he is a newb and you can see why he is so paranoid about being lynched; he's never handled pressure before. Thus "why would me be trying to get him lynched be scummy." suddenly can be logically answered. He would reasonably think that "hey, I'm town and this guy is pushing me on wrong points; since scum try to take down townies he's probably scum." Thus, he would only present this argument in a townie mindset.

And to finish this up: here's a little theory on OMGUS. Venomous OMGUS is scummy while self-righteous OMGUS tends to be newb town. Angry and venoumous behaviors identify more with the scum than does the town while self-righteousness identifies more with the town than does the scum.

But then, you are again treating him differently because he is a newbie and I am inherently against such an approach, especially in the beginning of the game.

1. Huh, what 'timeframe' did I attach to my post? You mean that I said that I am going to keep my vote on him for a while? That is true. With that I mean that I see no reason to put my vote off him. See it as me confirming my vote on him.
2. Did I ever imply that I wasn't going to do that? Anyway, what I meant is that I wasn't going to unvote him because he didn't cease to be scummy to me.
3. This is based on nothing. I never said that I had a specific plan or something among those lines. You are just making things up here.
4. I never said that I was willing to change it in a while. Was I supposed to say 'I am going to keep my vote on you for EVER!!!'? Because I really know better than to say that, even though I think he is scum right now, this is the first few pages of the game.

1. The "for a while" clause in fact a set timeframe. It says your going to keep your vote on him now but it also implies more...
2-4. The clause implies that your vote is more prone to change after some time rather than changing circumstances. Thus your own planned timeframe or escape route controls the vote rather than the scumminess associated with your target therefore your vote is insincere. And, you should have said my vote stands or my votes not moving. Or I'm keeping my vote on you.
I'm not saying you have this huge elaborate plan. I'm saying the you planned a specific timeframe and escape clause. Something a townie would not do.

I didn't mean the 'while' as such, as a specific time frame. I meant 'while' like something like, until something else comes up. Why do you feel the need to think so deeply about tiny semantics?
I'll use those sentences then, if you prefer, but I really don't see how they make such a big difference. Scum could also say 'my vote stands'. It's a different way of saying the same.

What reason would sird have for pursuing animorph if he were scum? Someone said something about going for an easy lynch or something, but why would scum do that? If animorph flips town, he'd be in an awful position the next day. Towns are generally awful enough at lynching scum that any experienced scum should be content enough to just let the town do their own thing.

If ani flips town, then all sird would have to do is blame animorph's newbness or just animorph.

So I (hypothetical sirdan-scum) am first going to say that newbies shouldn't be treated as such, and then I am going to blame his newbness? Could you elaborate on how that is logical?

Dattebayo, your case seems a bit misguided and you were looking too deeply into semantics. I disagree with your approach on newbies, and I fail to see how that is scummy. Actually, it would be a discussion worthy of a thread on MD.

[sirdanilot]

Hi there! I'm replacing somebody! I don't actually know who, but I assume it's one of those guys who were going to be replaced.

What's happening!

Hahahahahahahahahaha
ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahaha

Brilliant. Can I sig that?

(obviously this is not your fault the mod should have told you but still lol)

--------------------------------------
Okay, Dattebayo, I am glad that you see that something like that is purely a different approach and that both approaches are equally defendable. If you need a response on any of the issues, I'll be glad to give it, but for now I'll only reply to this point.

Simply, he saw two players before him claim out of what seemed nothing and thought it was just not a big deal to claim.

But then, we once again enter the same argument about whether to approach him like a newbie or not. I would never believe an experienced player would make such a mistake, so yes, this is just more of the same I am starting to believe that my entire case on animorpher stands or falls with my approach of newbies now, but that does not make it any less valid in my opinion.

And as for ani's last post, it perfectly fits with the big newbie town face he is trying to create here. Still no really valid defense against my case yet.

[sirdanilot]

Two millers claiming, someone randomly claiming...

vote Natirasha

What do you think about amorpher's claim? And the counter claim?

(1)Why did you vote Natirasha out of the two claimed millers? Why not Der Hammer?

(2)Also, Der Hammer why did you claim miller with a question mark at the end of your claim?

1. Now, that's a very good question, Dattebayo. The reason for that is that at the time, I found it a bit unlikely for scum to fake counter claim so early in the game. But right now, I am not completely sure about that. That is also one of the reasons I stopped voting Natirasha (but ani's scummyness was of course a much bigger reason).

Not completely sure yet what to think of the situation.

2. Now, I don't mean to answer for DH but this issue was resolved long ago. I think he was surprised that there were two millers, he wasn't unsure that he was a miller himself, but I'll let DH explain that himself.

Also, pacman, I am usually more 'eager' in the beginning of the game than towards the end, and in the game we played you didn't see me in the beginning since I replaced in later on. But meta isn't really that important anyway.

[sirdanilot]

Wouldn't the scum be cheating or expelling the ones with good answers?

Or am I totally on the wrong track here, it's getting a bit late so my mind may be working a bit slowly at the moment.

Xtoxm: do you have anything useful to add?

[sirdanilot]

Xtoxm: do you have anything useful to add?

So you don't want to follow with axel's proposal, why?

I expect to see something really useful now, Xtoxm.

[sirdanilot]

Seems like we are having a LOT of juicy posts to analyze tomorrow.

Xtoxm, could you answer my post? If you can't make it before the lynch scene is posted, you can post an answer tomorrow if you like.

Xtoxm: do you have anything useful to add?

So you don't want to follow with axel's proposal, why?

I expect to see something really useful now, Xtoxm.

Dattebayo's vote could be perceived as slightly opportunistic, but doesn't really fire serious alert bells right now. Still,

IGMEOY Dattebayo

And well, Natirasha's hammer deserves nothing less than

BIG FOS natirasha

.

I wasn't online when DG said:

Just making sure, the next vote for Der Hammer is a L-1, right?

It seems like Der Hammer is scum that has given up on the game.

Did the votecount say that there were 4 votes on DH at the time of this post?

[sirdanilot]

Yea.

don't ask me how.

There are no colors in iLord's PMs.

I am always very suspicious of people who don't read their role PMs... it is very likely that DH will flip mafia, judging from the flavor, and he didn't read his pm either! And I've seen this in other games too.

How was it oppurtunistic?

I am not saying that it

was certainly

opportunistic, but that it could be

perceived

as such. You see, when DH posted the message you quoted, there was hardly any chance that he wasn't going to be lynched, so a hypothetical Dattebayo-scum would have voted him for that.

It is, however, also possible that Dattebayo-town would've voted him in that case, hence the IGMEOY instead of a fos or (symbolic) vote. In a short day 1 like this one it's important to analyze everything.

[sirdanilot]

What were you fearing had you accidentally voted the wrong person for claiming miller?

(1)Better to ask and be right then the not ask and look like an idiot? I don't see your point here.

Why did you mention that you and DGB agreed right after you voted?

(2)Because it had appeared DGB did not agree at first?

1. Even better to look it up yourself. Shouldn't cost that much time. Also I find it a bit exaggerated that you would 'look like an idiot' and I fail to see how that would even matter to someone who is pro-town.
2. What stopped you from voting in this post?

I still don't trust the first claim.

[sirdanilot]

1. Even better to look it up yourself. Shouldn't cost that much time. Also I find it a bit exaggerated that you would 'look like an idiot' and I fail to see how that would even matter to someone who is pro-town.

I'm lazy.

2. What stopped you from voting in this post?

Nothing I guess.

So you admit to all the points.

So well yeah,

light FoS armlx

but honestly this case isn't really that strong anyway. We're better off looking at day 1. Arlmx, could you give us your read?
-------------------------------------------------------------

Of course, Nat. just said the same thing abo9ut two Millers. So, question to both of you: what is it about this set-up that leads you to the conclusion that there could be multiple millers?

It's simple in my eyes. In a game where people gain powers as they answer questions correctly, it seems extremely obvious that one of our supposed "powers" is to not be a miller.

This, in no way, seems obvious to me. It is, in fact, far closer to a stretch to cover oneself, than anything else.

This discussion was interesting but it ended prematurely. Natirasha, why do you think it's so obvious that one of the supposed powers is not to be a miller?

This is also a very interesting discussion during twilight:

...damn.

Why are you worrying about not hammering Der Hammer?

I'm not entirely sure I want to go to night yet.

This comes across as somewhat insincere, considering you apparently had no problems at all putting him at L-1.

And you also didn't say anything else, like, "hay guys, this is L-1, but I'm not really sure I want to go to Night yet...."

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Animorpherv1
105

Sure. So, there are 2 people thinking there are millers, and I think Nat and Der Hammer both adapted the idea of there being Death millers.

Later turns out neither of them did (why wouldn't you check).

My first thought "Death millers? Scum." I think they are talking about themselves as being "death millers" aka scum.

If I have this right, Nat claimed stoner, aka miller. Of course, all miller claims are impossible to verify if you don't get them lynched, but if I'm correct, they thought about in the same 2 pages, then they mere just "There is probably a death miller" for the rest of the game. This came out of nowhere, so I am accusing them of being scum.

Why would you try to make a reread of the miller claims... without actually reading. 'I think they both claimed miller and then iirc suddenly out of nowhere they were like death miller I think?

unvote, vote: Der Hammer

because the death miller thing is a out there, and a something I think only scum would say there is, to get themself out of trouble of they need it.

So he thinks that both Nat and DH claimed death miller. Ani, why did you choose to vote DH over Nat at this point?

I'll bet that if Der Hammer claims, he'll claim miller or death miller.

He already claimed at the time...
107

My fault. I thought you did. I know Der Hammer did that though.

Still he didn't check?
111

@ DerHammer- your right. False accusations., I am sorry, however, you don't seem to be posting much. I'd like to see some more activity from you.

So, he admits his accusations were false but he doesn't unvote him? And then he comes up with another reason to be voting him, namely that he wasn't posting much. So essentially that is now his only reason to be voting DH, and lurkerlynch=poop.

@ malthusis- because they may be talking about themself, and Death Miller is something that scum may claim. Altough I'd doubt they would, it's a possibility.

...
This needs no further explanation other than that it doesn't really look like a very solid case.
------------------------------------
Now I'll further analyze the DH bandwagon.
#123 - Electra votes DH for similarity in role names. No alarm bells, sounds pretty reasonable.
#131 - axel votes DH for the same reason as electra... except how can he know Electras role. anyway, this still doesn't ring bells.
#135 - tbh I don't really agree with the reasoning. the reason I don't agree is that students usually don't like students who kiss up to the teacher, and the kissing up student may be wanting to expell them.
#136 well yeah... I'll call this the point of no return, he basically sealed his fate here.
#138 - vote after the point of no return
#139

ELECTRA:

Could you sate the reasons for FoSing animorpher and natirasha here?
#143 - vote after the point of no return
#148 - vote after the point of no return, this was a hammer even though he didn't know it himself

Oh, and we shouldn't forget my case on animorpher from early day 1.


1. Claiming without reasoning.
2. Saying that the claim was a plain mistake, implying we should get over it.
3. "It looks to me as if your trying to get me lynched.", while I wasn't voting for him at the time. In fact, that statement in itself is scummy enough, anyone is able to see that.
4. Playing the newbie card.
5. Tries to make a case of DH while not even reading the thread, this also included some elements of bad logic and his case did not look sincere.

Liking my day 1 vote.

vote animorpherv1

[sirdanilot]

woops! Sorry for not posting (my eyes are tired, had a Snow day)

My defense against sirdanilot: (1)I claimed Class Clown, (2)it makes sense. (3)I don't see your claim anywhere.

(4)I DID reread after a while, but to no avail.

If anyone is scum, its sird & DGB.

vote:sirdanilot:

FOS: DGB

for saying that a miller makes sense, then saying that we will have to lynch the miller sooner or later.

Hey you know what guys, I'm going to actually seriously analyze this post.
1. Why did you claim. You had no reason to at all.
2. No it didn't, because you had no reason to. It doesn't make any sense at all, actually.
3. ... Are you seriously implying that people who don't claim are scummy? What about everyone else who didn't claim (aka the entire game not called you and natirasha)? Are they all scum?
4. How does this do anything to defend you in any way.

I won't even start to comment on the dgb fos.

More animorpher votes please, yaddayaddayadda

[sirdanilot]

1. It was a mistake

GET OVER IT. Eveeryone else has.

2. My claim makes sense. Don't tell me you've never had a class where someone was funny/ trying to be funny.

3. No, I'm not, that would be stupid.

4. You said I didn't reread.

(5)anyways, I'm sticking on sird for being either a lyncher (think about it someone who wants to take the funny kid's place) or bad scum.

1. Sorry can't do!
2. Oh like that. The role name alone doesn't really give me enough information for the role to make sense or not, but seriously I never implied that what you claimed didn't make sense.
3. Then what are you trying to say.
4. You should have re-read earlier, obviously. And why didn't you take off your vote after your re-read?
5. I hope everyone notices this bit!

I'd love to see more people commenting on the animorpher case. Oh and please don't buy the excuse of 'aww he's just new...' I've seen newbie scum act like this way too often, also read my arguments earlier in the thread (discussions with Dattebayo and animorpher).

[sirdanilot]

Oh, now we're entering a whole new sphere of things.

Ani, could you please fully claim now. Not only are you under enough pressure now, you have semi claimed multiple times and it's time for the pieces to fall together.

May I also mention that there's almost never a Jester in games not themed to be so. If ani does flip jester then we can label iLord as a bastardmod.

As scummy as ani is,

let's not lynch him yet until he fully claims.

[sirdanilot]

Right now, I'm Class Clown, no powers, nothing.

that's why I think I got more negative than posivtive points.

anyways, if noone can see the difference, Clown and Jester aren't really that different, so that is what I am thinking.

I think I get what he means here.

He's (appearing to be) a confused newbie, he is claiming vanilla but started role speculating because he made the link 'I'm the clown ---> I may become jester'. At least, that's what I think.

I still see no reason for a townie to say that, so this is no real reason not to lynch him, but just wanted to make this clear.

Also armlx, what you are waiting for better be really good.

[sirdanilot]

Where do the game mechanics state scum don't know the correct answers? For the record, I also know one of these is right, but still I am not convinced not to lynch animorpher yet.

If its right for him to claim, then its right for a mass claim of answers.

Well, that's quite the radical idea isn't it. We should think something like that through very, very, very carefully, and we're better off waiting for that until tomorrow in my opinion, when we know more about the consequences of answer claiming.

[sirdanilot]

SirD, scum would more likely lie about their answers.

This.

My main issue is how few answers he revealed.

One or two people would then be like 'hey I have another answer for 1 and 6' and he'd have shot himself in the foot.

I agree with arlmx' issue here though, which is why I am still voting him.

[sirdanilot]

Weren't we getting a replacement mod, Lawrencelot?

[sirdanilot]

Hmm I'm not so sure what to think of that hammer, fact is, animorpher

is

in fact the best lynch today, but it

can

be disputed and you should have given the other players a chance to.

igmeoy GhostWriter

I'm not going further than that, because it's really very easy to say the person who hammers is scum, and you know what was the trend lately, nobody had the guts to hammer anymore.

[sirdanilot]

How do you know?

[sirdanilot]

Goofball could you say how many answers xtoxm gave you?

Looking at some PMs in my inbox I think I have quite a few reasons to:

vote Natirasha

I am not going to quote them here, but let's just say that nat and xtoxm were close enough that I suspect nat gave her answers to him. I am not at all saying that I've now confirmed nat as scum since there are probably other people who traded with xtoxm, but this is my best bet for now.

Nat is also #1 candidate for a re-read, so let's see. The following PbPA's numbers are the actual post numbers, not one player thread numbers. I skipped a few miscellaneous posts here and there that don't contain much content.

5 - Miller claim, claiming not to set alerts (although she did). Do I need to say more.
31 - 'k so uhm yeah' don't you have anything useful to say?
41 - answers my question after being pressured to. 'yes there can be other millers' (read: believes dh's claim)
48 - thought ani claimed miller, ' I think it's town it sounds like a scum gambit i'd employ' what?
61 - 'i never said that '
65 - now he says 'the claim is true but I think he's scum'
74 - oh how adorable he finds me protown. says his claim doesn't warrant a vote yet votes ani. the game doesn't interest him
85 - . 'this will be an interesting game'
94 - makes a rather weird assumption that sounds more like useless speculation to me
102-3 - it may seem so obvious to you, but it isn't that obvious, nat!
106 - no death millers. very well
134 - he agrees with something I don't even understand myself
148 - DH hammer. there was never any expression of suspicion but he just decides to hop on. it doesn't matter if he actually thought he voted for l-1 or that he hammered on purpose.
150, 152 - "oh damn! did I really hammer him????'
154 - why not nat?
156 - 'but I thought I put him at l-1!!'
168 - . he doesn't continue discussion
190 - argues that millers should claim day 1
223 - votes ani because he claimed jester (he didn't claim jester). he ignores my question at the top of the page
250 - says he knew both answers. mkay
255 - oh wow interesting. says he knew that animorpher had more answers because he said he cheated off him last night... what am I to make of this?
262 - awwwww sounds like a scene in a drama movie or something
285 - oh snap

conclusion: he has a few slippery contradictions, actually more than just a few. his stance on DH and animorpher was fairly straightforward though, but his voting behavior was very opportunistic. I think nat is the best lynch for now but I'm looking forward to other people's opinions. my main point of concern is still the pms he sent.

[sirdanilot]

I'll save armlx the trouble and say this without much provocation.

Don't worry, arlmx is dead. Actually you killed him, did you forget?

Oh sorry, maybe it was your scumbuddy. silly me

I traded with Axelrod(actually the dude he replaced, but I digress), DGB, Malthy, and xtomx day one.
I cheated off armlx night one.
I traded(again) with DGB and StrangerCoug day two.

StrangerCoug isn't even in this game. Who did you trade with?

I cheated off..um..I'm not sure. Someone. Last night. But I didn't get any answers I didn't already have.

Why don't you want to tell us?

[sirdanilot]

I'm here, but I'm not paying attention at the moment.

I think that looking at Nat. is a good place to start the day.

Looking forward to something actually constructive from you.

Nat, do you not have any comment at all to my pbpa of you? Do you acknowledge all my points? I was looking for a bit of a discussion with you about it, I think that you refusing to discuss is pretty anti town.

[sirdanilot]

I would love to explain what is going on right now but I'm having far too much fun. Please go on.

[sirdanilot]

You implied the miller (nat) is scum, nat says 'so that makes me scum [sarcasm]' gw says 'he didn't attack you for it' nat 'he implied i am scum' gw 'oh I didn't see an actual miller can't have scumbuddies' dgb 'oh so you believe the miller claim'

GW doesn't understand you and you don't understand gw.

Nat may be slightly overdefending on the trading with xtoxm part, and is majorly underdefending on the playstyle part. wondering why

[sirdanilot]

You tell me!

[sirdanilot]

Actually I do agree. I wanted to hear someone else say it, and yes I know what Occam's Razor is.

Thank you for the comment.

more nat votes please lalala

[sirdanilot]

NOTE: For some reason I have trouble posting. A post I made a while ago just magically disappeared, and when I just tried to click the 'post reply' button I got redirected to the index (which is why I'm now using the quick reply box). If you see me disappear in the near future, at least you know why.

Hi replacements! Could you please make sure to pay attention to Natirasha's play while you are rereading? Thank you!

[sirdanilot]

You, on the other hand, while not being obviously scummy, have tended to push some matters above and beyond the call of duty when it wasn't called for. It's not enough for a vote, but here's looking at you.

Not sure what you mean here. Also what are you thoughts of claiming miller day 1. Do you think it is a good strategy?

[sirdanilot]

Mass replacements and general inactivity. A player who isn't there can't place a vote on Natirasha.

[sirdanilot]

Secondly: Based on the game's actions so far I think Sirdan looks scummier than Nat. Here's some PbPa:

Sirdan 200:

A) Sirdan lightly FoS armix but I don’t really see the need of bolding it in that case if it’s not a strong feeling.
B) He then makes a big point out of Animorph not reading the facts about what Nat and DH had claimed, when in reality Sirdan hadn’t read those facts either in post 98.

A) Oh wow, that's such a scum tell. I bolded a light FoS. Sorry scumteam. Should I claim now?
B) I have, look:

Sirdan 98:

A) He doesn’t explain why he’s voting for someone.
B) He also misread because DH had preveiously posted to clarify that he was indeed a miller (and already wondering 2 millers), not that he thought but didn't know he was a miller. Sirdan simply misread like he claimed Ani did.
*To be fair, Dattebayo, Axelrod and Malthusis also misread DH in the exact same way, but they didn't make a case about misreading and the latter 2 could have been influenced more by Datte and Sirdan who were first to post this falsehood.

A) Oh come on, I posted my case on animorpher earlier. Point invalid.
B) Huh? How did I misread this? Isn't this exactly what I meant? That DH claimed miller?

Sirdan 216:

A) Sirdan makes a good point: Animorph didn’t role claim, he only character claimed. Class Clown doesn’t tell us much and character claims aren’t even scummy IMO.
B) The fact that Sirdan understands that Animorph’s claim doesn’t have role information makes his day 1 eagerness to pressure look scummy.

Oh come on are we going through this all again? Read my discussions with Dattebayo on why I thought he was scummy. Okay, I was wrong. Does this make me scum? No. Since I happen to be town, I don't know the alignments of the players. That's the point of the game, really.

Sirdan 253:

A) Sirdan says a counter answer claim to Animorph would get ani in trouble, but doesn’t ani’s role imply he has wrong answers? I think this is called the "No True Scotsman" scumtell, because you are eliminating a way for Ani to be townie according to his role.

I didn't think of that his role implied he had most answers wrong. Anyway, he did have two right answers so how would that have cleared him?

Sirdan 286:

A) How were Nat and Xtoxm close?
B) Post 5 point is incorrect because Nat said he didn’t set alerts day 1 and then said he set alerts day 3. No contradiction there.
C) I agree his vote on DH could be seen as opportunistic because he didn’t state his reason for voting or say anything else in that post. His reason for lynching animorph does not look opportunistic to me, he gives a better reason than the jester claim but I’ll let Nat defend this if he wants.
D)

48 - thought ani claimed miller, ' I think it's town it sounds like a scum gambit i'd employ' what?
61 - 'i never said that '
65 - now he says 'the claim is true but I think he's scum'

I think you’re misinterpreting these, but maybe Nat will eventually defend it instead of dismissing your case.

Vote: Sirdanilot

A) I know this via PMs. I think I may actually reveal the PMs at some point. I am sure that they will be quite persuasive.
B)

Additionally, I am not setting any alerts. Anyone who wants to cheat off me can.

this is what he said. He didn't say anything about which day he was talking about.
C) Sure let Nat defend this.
D) Sure let Nat defend this.
Until Nat defends himself, I feel that my points are valid. Burden of proof is with him to disprove my points now.

[sirdanilot]

A few things.

1. To sird, I will have a seperate post talking to you. However, after that *last* game, I no longer respond/believe in PBPAs except from the most highest tiered players, which I am unsure you are yet.

I don't think you're entitled to refuse responding to my pbpa right now. Seriously.

[sirdanilot]

Wait. Hold it.

I got a list of the answers Electra submitted last night and another list of the answers she had right. She submitted 1 as B and 6 as D but neither showed up on the list of answers correct.

This is untrue. 1b is correct.

fos jahudo

Any reason why your acting more like Ythill than sirdan from Innocence Falls?

Whatever, scum!

B) Huh? How did I misread this? Isn't this exactly what I meant? That DH claimed miller?

Point withdrawn. I missed one of the double negatives in the following quote:

I think he was surprised that there were two millers, he

wasn't unsure that he was a miller himself

, but I'll let DH explain that himself.

I thought you said he wasn't sure about his miller status when he actually was. A few people did want him to confirm miller after he already did and these people weren't reading close enough.

Okay.

I didn't think of that his role implied he had most answers wrong. Anyway, he did have two right answers so how would that have cleared him?

I am now saying that they are lies. Electra used those answers and they didn't work.

See above

He didn't say anything about which day he was talking about.

Since you can set alerts at any time throughout the day or on any day, he can tell the truth in post 5 but also set alerts later on and not be lying.

No. Saying that he won't set alerts means to me that he won't set alerts. But this is a matter of interpretation.

We may be on to something here with jahudo lying about 1B (which is actually correct)... still keeping my vote on the miller though.

[sirdanilot]

Oh I missed the post where jahudo flipped to say they should be right.

Guess what jahudo, you can't know if your answers where right or wrong. Before you call me a pot calling the kettle black (or how did it go), yes I said that 1B is right, but that's just what I

think

it is. Sorry for that.

[sirdanilot]

Suddenly I'm hugely confused.

Try to make sense rather than express confusing and not being helpful, please.

[sirdanilot]

It would be quite a stretch for a nat-scum to say that his miller status was gone, because then an investigative role would check on him and if he would have found a guilty he would have claimed.

Of course nat did not claim that his miller status was gone. He'd be absolutely crazy to.

[sirdanilot]

I'm here.

There's clearly indeed someone lying, because suddenly the game fell to a standstill...

[sirdanilot]

I traded an answer to Nat first day. When Night came I cheated off of DGB and found not only a few answers (as well as #7) but my own as well (I'm not revealing it).

what night was this?

[sirdanilot]

No, 7 is a lie. I'm confirming it /facepalm.

Huh how did you know?

[sirdanilot]

How did he know that the answer was wrong? Didn't we discuss earlier that you can't know what answer is right or wrong (except that IMO the answers you get at the beginning of the game are probably right).

I'm sorry for not paying enough attention to this game...

[sirdanilot]

Goofball could you say how many answers xtoxm gave you?

Looking at some PMs in my inbox I think I have quite a few reasons to:

vote Natirasha

I am not going to quote them here, but let's just say that nat and xtoxm were close enough that I suspect nat gave her answers to him. I am not at all saying that I've now confirmed nat as scum since there are probably other people who traded with xtoxm, but this is my best bet for now.

Nat is also #1 candidate for a re-read, so let's see. The following PbPA's numbers are the actual post numbers, not one player thread numbers. I skipped a few miscellaneous posts here and there that don't contain much content.

5 - Miller claim, claiming not to set alerts (although she did). Do I need to say more.
31 - 'k so uhm yeah' don't you have anything useful to say?
41 - answers my question after being pressured to. 'yes there can be other millers' (read: believes dh's claim)
48 - thought ani claimed miller, ' I think it's town it sounds like a scum gambit i'd employ' what?
61 - 'i never said that '
65 - now he says 'the claim is true but I think he's scum'
74 - oh how adorable he finds me protown. says his claim doesn't warrant a vote yet votes ani. the game doesn't interest him
85 - . 'this will be an interesting game'
94 - makes a rather weird assumption that sounds more like useless speculation to me
102-3 - it may seem so obvious to you, but it isn't that obvious, nat!
106 - no death millers. very well
134 - he agrees with something I don't even understand myself
148 - DH hammer. there was never any expression of suspicion but he just decides to hop on. it doesn't matter if he actually thought he voted for l-1 or that he hammered on purpose.
150, 152 - "oh damn! did I really hammer him????'
154 - why not nat?
156 - 'but I thought I put him at l-1!!'
168 - . he doesn't continue discussion
190 - argues that millers should claim day 1
223 - votes ani because he claimed jester (he didn't claim jester). he ignores my question at the top of the page
250 - says he knew both answers. mkay
255 - oh wow interesting. says he knew that animorpher had more answers because he said he cheated off him last night... what am I to make of this?
262 - awwwww sounds like a scene in a drama movie or something
285 - oh snap

conclusion: he has a few slippery contradictions, actually more than just a few. his stance on DH and animorpher was fairly straightforward though, but his voting behavior was very opportunistic. I think nat is the best lynch for now but I'm looking forward to other people's opinions. my main point of concern is still the pms he sent.

[sirdanilot]

Not me either.

[sirdanilot]

This is my take on sirdan's PBPA on Nat...

• 5 - Unless you can prove that Nat set alerts on Day 1, this is not a lie. He never unconditionally said he'd leave alerts off the entire game.

And I still don't agree with this interpretation, but whatever.

31 - not a tell. fluff post only.

Fluff post = tell

41/48/61/65 - I think he means to say "Ani's character claim (Class Clown) looks true but is not entirely town-oriented. It could be scum alignment just as easy, which is a gambit to pull." I understood that from his original post, not his explanation.

uh ok

74 - this is contradictory. I'm inferring that he doesn't have confidence in a animorph wagon but that feeling is outweighed by not wanting pressure on himself. This could be town or scum I guess.

how could that be town

85 - not a tell. fluff post only.

no. contradiction with 74 where he said the game didn't interest him. neverthele[quote[ss, only a very small tell if anything but still worth to note.

94/102 - IIOA. He's talking setup but not scumhunting. Slight scum tell.

to me it's more that he's trying to say that the speculation is 'obvious'. it isn't

106 - not a tell. animorph misread the game and nat corrected him.

this is slight setup speculation but w/e

148 - I agree. He didn't express suspicion before voting. This could be a huge scum tell if the post count wasn't incorrect. Maybe Nat knew what he was doing and knew he could use it to defend himself, maybe not.

Even if he didn't know that he was hammering, so mindlessly voting him to put him at l-1 and then saying 'damn I hammered him' is scummy enough in itself. how can you not see that.

150/152/154/156/ - If this was face to face we might know if he was acting, but I can't tell from that.

see above. even if he didn't know, this is scummy.

168 - This could be a scum tell. He said he wanted to scumhunt and he was given an extended twilight, but he does nothing with it.

190 - Theory talk but we had to say something to armix I guess.

223 - Alot of people voted animorph over the jester thing. I don't see how Nat looks any different. Also, your post was overflowing with loose ends about animorph and armix so I can understand someone else not responding to a question the first time its asked in that manner.

250 - not a scum tell.

255 - Yeah, animorph said he didn't cheat so I guess we trust him over Nat here. Ani said he got them randomly though and I don't know how he could do that? Does this mean Nat is lying or Ani was confused?

I have no idea.

262 - personality tell if anything.

285 - sarcasm is not a scum tell[/list]
I think only posts 74, 94/102, 148, 168, and 255 might be scumtells.
@Everyone: Does anyone have any suspicions to add or subtract from my list?

285 - way to dismiss what he said and just look at the 'sarcasm' brackets.

[sirdanilot]

Post 255 - Do you think Animorph was A) Telling the truth or B) Confused at the question. If A, then Nat is scum and we should lynch him now. And explain how A is true because Ani confused me with this post so I think B.

I don't really get what you're getting at. 255 is a nat post, not an ani post. As for 254 (which was an ani post), he wasn't answering a question. He only said that he got only 2 with his role. As for 259, "I just got it randomly, I don't remember asking to cheat off you.". I don't know what this means. Nat says that he

said

he cheated off him n1, but

did

he cheat off him? Ani only said that he

hasn't asked

to cheat off Nat, not that he

hasn't done it

. And "I just got it randomly" what is that supposed to mean. Maybe that he randomly picked someone to cheat off of, but does that even matter?

So could you rephrase or explain your question here?

[sirdanilot]

Since Ani is town (1)maybe he did ask the mod to pick a target at random, (2)or maybe random cheating is in his role ability as Class Clown

1 no
2 We will never know. And we cannot assume this simply because we would then be setup speculating. Also, personally this makes little sense to me but that doesn't even matter.
Therefore the only assumption we can make is that he just randomly chose a target out of the list and it was nat.

Since the random thing is a non issue (it doesn't really matter does it) we need to ask ourselves if ani PMed with nat. To be honest, look at post 74. He suspects animorpher. Since animorpher was a newbie I don't think that he would find someone who is voting him pro-town. Not pro-town enough to pm.

Look at post 105, he suspects nat for claiming death miller (which he didn't, but that doesn't matter). He takes that back in 107, but look at 111; when he takes it back about DH, he doesn't unvote him. So for some reason he still suspects DH enough, and it would be only logical to extend that to Natirasha. Remember I am just following ani's logic here.

If you can point me to even a single day 1 post where ani said nat was pro town, we should immediately unvote nat. But you probably can't. That's why I still think Nat is scum and we should lynch him.

[sirdanilot]

Did you all notice the continuous 'too busy for flavor' things in the mods vote counts? What could that be? Maybe that has something to do with animorpher who was the class clown?

Just introducing a side subject to keep at least some discussion going.

Also, v/la 31-8

[sirdanilot]

I'm here.

I suppose we're at mylo now, if there are two scum left. If dgb flips town, and the scum get a night kill, it'll probably be 2 vs 2. So this is quite the risk I suppose. I got mostly town vibes from dgb this game so I'm really not sure.

I consider it likely that the game contains 3 scum and then the sk or psychopath (what's the difference?). Since no lynching won't get us anywhere I think that we should take the risk of lynching dgb now.

I am not hammering right now since hammering in the first post after a week of absence would not be the best course of action and I'm still a bit hesitant. Does anyone want any other information from me?

I think some rereads discussing interaction with Natirasha are in order before the hammer vote is placed.

[sirdanilot]

Eep. I'm here.

This is quite simple. DGB is obviously lying. A rich girl, who happens to gain the powers of a thief? Mistaking lock PICKING with using bolt CUTTERS? Everyone knows what lock picking is, and can assume, roughly, how it is done; people know, through sheer common sense, that bolt cutters cut, and do not pick.

Eek, this screams so much scum, since the picking vs cutter incident was resolved already.

Jahudo, what do you think of GW?

This seems a bit too pushy.

So yes, GW dropped a scum tell there but I don't think he fits in with any of our potential scum. Still worth noting.

NPC, The Hillbilly Kid, Innocent has been expelled Day 1.

Der Hammer, Orchestra Geek, Innocent has been lynched Day 1.

Xtoxm, the Football Player, Innocent has been stabbed through the back Night 1.

Animorpherv1, the Class Clown, Innocent has been killed by a glass shard Day 2.

Armlx (VisMaior), the Too-Nice Kid, Innocent has been poisoned Night 2.

UnofficialRulerofEveryone (Natirasha), the Fat Kid, Druggie has been shot with a pistol Day 3.

Malthusis, the Quiet Kid, Psychopath has been killed Night 3.

It seems that roles typically have the name of a high school stereotype, and that the town name is 'innocent' and the mafia are the 'druggies'. The psychopath is obviously third party. Rich girl does not seem to bear any connection or aversion with/to druggies (rebelling rich girl doing drugs? mafia godfather daughter? or nice rich girl doing nothing with drugs?). However, rich girl and thief seem a bit of a no-no to me. If this is true, then it would point towards a druggie rich girl gone bad at best.
That's everything I'm willing to speculate on in this post.

---

Firstly, Axelrods pushy posts gave me some bad vibes, so here is some axelrod/mana-ku interaction with Natirasha and vice versa.
(real thread numbers)
mana-ku:
post 32: "I'm not gonna focus on those claims yet. I've seen to what it can lead. Eventually, it comes down to their play." distancing from nat?
35: no interaction, but just noting the "And I was wondering, how many answers have you already been given and by whom? "
axelrod:
85: "[quoting axelrod replacing in]Hm...this is interesting. Between you and SirD, I think that this will be an interesting game for me. " very minor, just pointing out.
90: out of the two miller claims, suspects DH is scum over nat.

AXELROD: why did you not start suspecting Nat when DH flipped town? You said that one of the miller claims is scum. if one flips town isn't it a logical conclusion the other one is scum?

99 - keeps the option of nat-scum open but no clear suspicion wiffle waffle
102 - the hideous nat (alt) post speculating that a 'you're no longer a miller' ability is so obvious. just for reference, because...
118 - NOTHING about nat. just a useless malth unvote (

AXELROD: why?

). And, reiterating his predecessor's 'what's the amount of answers everyone got'. Just to note.
158 - finally some nat suspicion. but uhm 'somewhat insincere' what?
180 - says 'that doesn't mean there aren't other reasons to vote Natirasha' and says he'll start rereading.
194... no nat reread? aww
292 - "looking at nat is a good place to start the day"
<more than a page of absence>
328 - a reasonably good post, but nothing about nat
382 - constructive post suspecting UROE (nat replacement). finally
388 - uroe says axelrod is top pick for scum, reread pending.
410 - suspects nat, but no vote yet. still pending nat reread?
443 - uroe hammer

Alright, so what has this reread told us?

The biggest tells are these:
90 - Did not suspect nat after DH flipped town.
Continuously promising nat rereads, but nothing happened
Not voting UROE day 3, while expressing suspicion, until he got the opportunity to hammer.

I think I could do one of these from DGB as well in the near future. I'm sorry for not posting a lot. What is everyone's opinion about this? It personally hasn't convinced me of axelrodscum yet but it's very worth considering (especially since I put quite a lot of time into this).

MOD: DOES THE MAFIA HAVE SAFECLAIMS?

Asking never hurts.

[sirdanilot]

They both suspected the miller claims but they took a long time to finally push a case on Nat. It looks like they were both hypocritical in pushing DH hard and opportunistically forgetting about the miller in favor of an animorph wagon.

Who are you talking about here?

[sirdanilot]

Wait wait wait. So what's up with answer 11 here GW?

Jahudo what is your answer 12?

[sirdanilot]

1=B (UROE)
2=B (Axelrod)
3=D
4=C (GhostWriter)
5=C (Malthusis)
6=D (UROE)
7=B (Me)
8=B (Me)
9=D (Axelrod)
10=C (Malthusis)

11=C (GhostWriter)
12=B (Axelrod)

13=C (Axelrod)
14=B (Axelrod)
15=C (Axelrod)

These two are problematic. I have another answer for 11, meaning either GW is lying -> scum or it is possible that the answers you get at the start are wrong. Maybe Jahudo can tell me the answer to 11 as well so we have a 2 vs 1?

Then we have 12. Jahudo has another answer for this one than Axelrod. This means that either Jahudo/Electra is lying -> scum or, again, it's possible the answers you get at the start are wrong.

I find a GW/jahudo scum pair unlikely since if Master Ruck is indeed town I find it very likely that DGB is scum. And we can't have 3 scum left. And if MR is scum then, well, we still can't have 3 scum can we...

There is also the possibility axelrod is lying. But why would he give mruck-town all those answers? Are we dealing with a Mruck-axelrod scum pair? Wouldn't that be too perfectly orchestrated? Because other than that he dropped a huge town tell with the claim and the answers I haven't seen proof that mruck is town?

So many questions.

[sirdanilot]

STOP.

So basically we are now in the situation that either DGB or GW is scum right?

And I suppose Mruck supports DGB-scum. So does AxelRod (who is probably town with Mruck). Meaning GW has to be town.

If Mruck were scum, AxelRod would probably be scum too, giving us GW scum, AxelScum and Mruck Scum. This is impossible.

So GW is town. A very anti-town town, that is. I consider speculating that the test is based on real mythology not only extremely anti town, but, no offense, just downright stupid. Can you really imagine that ANY mod would do something like that? It's just ridiculous.

GW looks horribly scummy but it seems that he is probably town anyway.

I would hammer, but I want someone (preferably several people even) to confirm that my logic is correct. I do not trust myself with the game deciding vote right now. Yes, yes, I know hesitating to hammer is horrible and all that...

The only flaw in my logic I can see myself is that mruck is an insane cop. There is little to nothing we can do to minimize the risk. We'll just have to take it I guess.

This would fit in better with GW-scum though, since he looks horribly scummy while DGB doesn't really, to be honest...

[sirdanilot]

Meta: DGB loves bussing. What she loves even more is discussing or speculating who is bussing.

You know what, I am going to take responsibility for this. I am going to take the risk of being called a freaking idiot endgame. I have posted my logic, I have seen no town say it was false. This is my logic, this is how I am playing

vote DGB

I am terribly sorry if I made a huge mistake. Feel free to call me an idiot if I did, but at least do it constructively so I can avoid being an idiot next time. Through errors we learn, right.

Maybe if I do it once, laying down the game deciding vote will be less difficult for me.

[sirdanilot]

Massclaim time!

I am the DEBATER. Last night I got the power to ONE-SHOT REDIRECT (among other things). I decided to redirect GHOSTWRITER to target AXELROD. The results were that someone tried to stop me, but redirection was faster than roleblocking.

As you can see, JAHUDO died tonight. This means that GHOSTWRITER cannot be scum. This means that I suspect AXELROD is scum, with MASTER RUCK as the only other possible suspect.

Now I want AXELROD and MASTER RUCK to completely claim what they did, like I did. I also want ROLE NAMES from AXELROD and MASTER RUCK. In that order, please.

We should be able to WIN this game as TOWN because of the plethora of powers we got this night.

[sirdanilot]

EBWOP: Actually GW should claim too. After all it's a MASSCLAIM.

[sirdanilot]

Full claim: The TEACHER tried to ROLEBLOCK me. However, my REDIRECTION SUCCEEDED.

Nobody claimed TEACHER. Much to my dismay. Meaning we have a SCUM in our midst... oh wait, we knew that already!

Either Axelrod or Ghostwriter should be scum. I think it's AXELROD since he targeted JAHUDO, and MASTER RUCK already had a COP SCAN and I don't think there are 2 people with a cop scan.

Claming targetting JAHUDO is supposedly AXELROD's way to prevent his FAKECLAIM being broken by a TRACKER.

Thoughts?

[sirdanilot]

UPDATE: Apparently, the TEACHER was only FLAVOR. The MOD told me so.

This means that it is not 100% sure that there was a FAKE NAME CLAIM.

[sirdanilot]

Axelrod, you do have a point here, I didn't notice what GW said there, or at least I overlooked it.

However, now we have a little problem. GW was redirected to target Axelrod, but he didn't. But the redirection

was

successful,

and

Axelrod was not killed. This means that we have one fact pointing towards GW-scum, and one pointing towards GW town.

GW

cannot

have killed Jahudo, and therefore

cannot

be scum. Which is why I think you are scum. I doubt very much that Master Ruck is scum. I

really

don't think so.

We have a problem here...

[sirdanilot]

Well the problem is that I KNOW I am town, and the mod CAN'T lie to me.

This is a clear case of bastardmodding. Two night action results are in conflict with each other.

The only reason I got that you are scum is process of elimination; GW can't be scum because he can't have killed jahudo, leaving you or master ruck as scum. I don't buy MR is scum so it has to be you.

[sirdanilot]

The mod said that my ability was successful.

That's all I can do, really. Two night actions are in logical conflict and GW simply cannot be scum. I do not believe for one second the mod is intentionally lying to me. It's all there is to it.

I have no idea how to solve this situation other than a process of elimination giving either Master Ruck or Axelrod as scum.

[sirdanilot]

I redirected GW to target Axel.

Someone tried to roleblock me, but failed. So my night action succeeded.

That's all I know, and that's all there is to it. The mod doesn't lie to me, unless he's a bastardmod.

Do with it what you can.

[sirdanilot]

Maybe jahudo roleblocked me? Or wouldn't that have gone through.

I suggest not voting axel yet until we reach a consensus he needs to be lynched. Although my logic says Axel should be scum, GW looks way scummier. And we aren't done figuring this out yet.

Axelrod, what do you think about the matter?

(MR I want to hear Axel's opinions first)

[sirdanilot]

Axelrod, I think that if this came down to play style I would probably vote GW over you since he seems more scummy. The problem is the puzzle we have to solve concerning the night actions.

[sirdanilot]

What? That would just bring us even more twists and turns. But I suppose it's the best plan for now... I personally really don't like to be driven in a corner like that, but it might be the only way for town to win this game.

This is one of the harder situations I've been in...

[sirdanilot]

Okay I can agree to that.

GW please post asap and don't drag this thing thank you.

[sirdanilot]

uh

"No, I saw people targeting him." who is him in this sentence

[sirdanilot]

the scum too you know

Hmm. Alright then I decided to do this

hammer vote: no lynch

[sirdanilot]

Good point.

Axel or gw please hammer thank you.

[sirdanilot]

Oh yes, sorry about that.

GW post your answers then you may hammer as far as I'm concerned.

I had 14 B too, probably from you. But now I decided to use MRs answer. But I'm not sure yet, I can always change back. What answer should I use.

MR how did you get 14D?

[sirdanilot]

I'll change it back too.

[sirdanilot]

k. got something interesting

Axelrod please fully claim what you did to whom first thank you

[sirdanilot]

claim:

Axel targeted Master Ruck AND Ghostwriter.

So we have
Axel: targets master ruck (3 claims), targets ghostwriter (one claim)
Axel claims doctor.
Nobody died.

Hypothesis: GW tried to kill Master Ruck, Axel protected him, GW tries to cover it up by claiming he tracked AND watched him.

Question: Axel why did you lie. What did you do with GhostWriter? Are you scum? GW why are you not scum?

This time, I think we

can

solve the puzzle, but our mod gave us all a plethora of powers which makes things pretty damn confusing.

[sirdanilot]

interesting

[sirdanilot]

Hypothesis: GW tried to kill Master Ruck, Axel protected him, GW tries to cover it up by claiming he tracked AND watched him.

Prove to me that this can't be true

[sirdanilot]

The mod just said that they can't. But sure let the mod answer the question again. It's not like he's doing enough work yet

So there is no compelling evidence that Axelrod is more likely to be scum than GW or vice-versa?

[sirdanilot]

Being that the town got such a plethora of powers towards the end of the game (absurd balance-breaking in favor of the town) I would find it very weird if it wasn't the case that the scum not only got a plethora of powers as well, but also would be able to use them simultaneous with the night kill.

Note that if we pin GW as scum for

today

, we aren't done yet. We'd have to use our knowledge to analyze the night actions

yesterday

. So please don't even think about voting until we reach a consensus that we are going to vote.

Another no-lynch is an actual option today, but I'd prefer not to.

There is a possibility of a scum no kill. Let's briefly include this into our analysis.

[sirdanilot]

Well I'm really not sure what to think of this now and I think we're starting to fall in an impasse.

GW can really go any way, and I haven't seen compelling evidence confirming axel-town yet.

[sirdanilot]

huh? I said I tracked axelrod. he targeted you and gw.

[sirdanilot]

K. I'm lost here now. I've never been good at theme endgames but when my time comes to lay down a vote I'll try to comprehend it the best I can. I am not voting right now yet.

Firstly, let's use Occam's Razor on this. What is the most likely? GW couldn't have killed Jahudo night 4 because I redirected him succesfully, and process of elimination gives axel-scum, or my report was *somehow* corrupted and GW killed jahudo and axel is innocent? To me, it looks like the first one.
As for night 5, Axel targeted Master Ruck *and* GW. He claims doc and answer sheet checking (or something like that). Since doc doesn't seem to be a special power, the answer sheet checking would've been his special power. Is this power more likely than the ability to night kill?

However, if he attempted to night kill, why didn't it succeed? Does he have two special scum powers? And would scum get one-shot doc?

Night 5 is a puzzle still unsolved, but night 4 seems clear to me...

[sirdanilot]

Also this little convo was awfully scummy, although I do think night actions are more important right now than scumminess.

[quote="sirdanilot]Axelrod please fully claim what you did to whom first thank you[/quote]

All right. I had some debate, but ultimately I decided to Doc protect Master Ruck last Night.

Ghostwriter?

Axel targeted Master Ruck AND Ghostwriter.
(...)
Question: Axel why did you lie. What did you do with GhostWriter? Are you scum? GW why are you not scum?

SirD, I did not lie, and I have never lied this entire game. You asked me what I did "first" which is what I answered. I've learned that sometimes not spilling everything you have all at once is the best course of action in this game. Right now, for example, it tells me that you probably did, in fact, "Track" me, and therefore, were probably not out trying to kill someone else.

I've gained one other power which is completely irrelevant at this stage of the game, but I targeted GW with it anyway. It's a "peeking" power which let's me look at someone else's test even if they have alerts set up. Whoopie. I can do that plus another power in the same night though.

What I want to know is why Axel decided to use his doc power in the end. He told me that he was thinking of not using it as a 3-man end would make things easier to solve and that if there was no death, it would be one among whatever number of possibilities as to why a kill didn't go through. If he had all this logic, then why did he go ahead and use it?

I was thinking of not using it. And I was thinking of using it on SirD. And I was thinking a lot of other things besides. Ultimately I came to the conclusion that (1) assuming GW was scum, which was my assumption, then (2) YOU were his only logical target. And frankly, if I could stop a kill and have 3 townies living today, that would be significantly better than getting into a 3-man endgame where one mis-vote = lose, and SirD already expressing "suspicions" about me.

I'm now completely satisfied in my own mind that it's GW. The "I fixed my device and now I saw both who targeted MR and who he targeted" sounds like complete bunk. There's just no other possibility.

Note that I must say that if you do turn up scum this post was absolutely brilliant.

[sirdanilot]

I'm not voting yet. I really, really dislike making decisions like these, and I'll be very honest with my reasons for this; if I make the wrong call, all the blame is on me. Of course I have no choice here (I am definitely not replacing out) so I'll eventually have to drop the vote of doom I guess, but not right now.

MR says he was redirected. You do not claim a redirect ability. Could you exactly state your hypothesis on what happened last night in a clear and concise way, axel, from your point of view (as in assuming you are town).

[sirdanilot]

GW targets MR. I Doc protect MR and target GW with the alret bypass. You tracked me. No death results. And that makes so much more sense than "Scum Axelrod redirected MR onto GW and did nothing else."

both make sense. I am still undecided which of the two makes more sense

ew this is hard

[sirdanilot]

CLAIM:

I have got a one-shot doc power. It is unlikely, albeit not impossible, that there are two doc powers.

Still undecided but leaning towards Axel scum. However, my main issue with GW is his stupid theory about the test answers. Also xtoxm thought he was scum.

[sirdanilot]

We all need to have a clearer vision of this. Let's state all the night actions we know.
Night 3:
malthusis got killed
MR: cop scans DGB -> scum
DGB: cheated off GW (maybe nked malthusis since dgb is scum)
GW: targeted malthusis, heard DGB kill malthusis
Day 4:
(note: axel jumps on very early to vote DGB as scum, gw is next, but then axel unvotes)
dgb claims axel is scum
GW says that DGB cheated off him last night. this may confirm the theory that NKs are not special powers, but of course maybe dgb's scumpartner killed DGB.

Night 4:
jahudo got killed
sirdanilot: redirected gw to target axelrod
master ruck: jailed GW, but got redirected to an unknown person
axelrod: cop scanned jahudo
GW: heard sirdanilot and jahudo together, but tried to target axel
Night 5:
Doc protect malthusis
Axel: doc protect mr, 'supercheat' GW
GW: watches MR, axel targeted MR, MR targeted GW
sirdanilot: tracks axel: he targets MR and GW
MR: tried to watch sirdanilot but got redirected

The key part to winning this game is the part where MR watched me but got redirected, I think. One person who has targeted two people would be AxelRod. A redirection would come up as targeting two people.

Would it be implausible to assume AxelRod redirected Master Ruck to GW? But why did he not kill?

Also, another issue.

AXELROD: WHAT DID YOU DO NIGHT 3. FULL CLAIM PLEASE

[sirdanilot]

let's hear it axelrod

[sirdanilot]

The key part to winning this game is the part where MR watched me but got redirected, I think. One person who has targeted two people would be AxelRod. A redirection would come up as targeting two people.

Would it be implausible to assume AxelRod redirected Master Ruck to GW? But why did he not kill?

What is more likely. Axelrod redirecting mr to gw and not killing, and GW watching/tracking MR successfully, or GW trying to kill MR, axelrod protecting him and axelrod using his special power on gw?
Let's use occam's razor guys.

[sirdanilot]

I don't know, it just doesn't sit right with me. What if GW is scum. This is not a clear cut case IMO. The night actions are ambiguous. GW is infinitely scummier in his play, but the razor does seem to prefer axel-scum (albeit slightly).

Maybe I'll finally get off my fence tomorrow and lay down a vote, but I am just not very comfortable with GW's play. Right now my gut is saying axel, but a few days ago it was saying GW. I guess I should just go with Axel.

GW could you answer the occam'z razor question

[sirdanilot]

vote GW

Why would you wait until I said I would vote axelrod? Why didn't you vote earlier? Do you think I am scum?

[sirdanilot]

I tired to find a place where you did say you find axel suspicious, but I can't.

So now we need to answer one final question, and then I'll finally lay down the vote and put an end to this.

MOD: If player A redirects B to target C, and player D tracks player A, will it show up as 'Player A targeted Player B and Player C'? Or will it only show one of them?

The odds of the mod answering this are small, but there's no reason not to try. Axel would you agree that the answer to this would be yes?

I am going to hammer within 24 hours. I have been convinced that this is a more likely scenario than GW scum. I commend everyone for their play in this game. Good game guys. I am sorry for wiffle-waffling and sitting on the fence.

[sirdanilot]

claim: the mod just said there would be two targets. this means we have two confirmed possible scenarios.

k. I'm really a chicken when it comes to hammering, but we can't let the game go on forever. GW-scum, you have played well. axel-scum, prepare to die. mr-scum... is impossible.

also, final piece of evidence: MR targetted me, but turned out to be redirected to GW. who redirected him if it wasn't axel? GW couldn't have, since he would try to kill MR.

unvote, vote: AxelRod

5,4,3,2,1...

go

[sirdanilot]

Yay! I am really sorry for dragging the game out so much guys, but I just don't have very good confidence when it comes to these lylo situations, simply because I haven't been in them a lot. In fact, I can only recall about 2 games where I was in lylo. I tend to get NKed a lot...

So what was up with the person attempting to roleblock me night 4? Oh well. I guess we'll see in the mod's wrap up post.

Mod: Thank you for moderating this wonderfully enjoyable game!

[sirdanilot]

mod: I have two votes in the end vote count

That said, I'm eagerly awaiting the wrap up post.