Mini 2286: Legends of the Hidden Temple IV (Explorers Win!)

[mastina]

Hello friends.

Go gold dragons

Town.

What brings you here?

I come to bring goodwill to all players here, as well as to have some good clean fun.

Town?

I will abstain from talking about this game's source material as I have no clue what it is

Scum.

[mastina]

Do you know where my compass is?

VOTE: mastina
Every time I've been paranoid of her, she has been in the opposite faction, and this game I am paranoid of her, so she has to be scum.

Town?

[mastina]

LOCKTOWN:
{Save the Dragons}

TOWN:
{Ythan}

LEAN TOWN:
{Yume, Gamma Emerald}
{Aisa}

{Cephrir}

NULL:
{Flea the Magician, Hu Tao, furtiveglance}
{Nancy Drew 39}

SCUM:
{MegAzumarill}

[mastina]

Can I paraphrase an emoji?

Sure, spell it out as "heart emoji"!
<3

That, and she posted in our PT something she posts when we're opposite alignments.

Yume's town!

How am I more null than slots that haven’t even posted?

Because.

[mastina]

Can you challenge unilaterally or do both players in a pair have to do it?

I

think

it's just one; the first Challenge issued, is the challenge made for the day. Period. No other options.

If it required both to make a challenge, and/or multiple challenges could be concurrent, and/or the person needed to accept (literally any of these), I'd have instantly challenged MegAzumarill here.

But because the challenge issued mechanics have none of those (at least to my knowledge), the first challenge is the only challenge we get, so alas. I can't be as impulsive as I want to be.

Nancy that sounds really defensive, we have to talk about SOMETHING.

Actually that's the towniest post I've seen Nancy make yet.

Unofficial Vote Count
None cause there hasn't been a challenge yet I think

I'm genuinely thinking of just challenging Meg here because Meg is like, 100% scum here btw.

[mastina]

If Mastina towntells, I’ll definitely see it. I’m pretty good at reading her.

On that note, it's a bit early to be sure but I

think

this is Nancy as town.

I may just start getting comfy with this position you've been liking for me!

Look I hate myself for putting you there and feel like I shouldn't on principle and you not questioning it is making me extra regretful of it but I gotta go with what I feel, especially in a game where I need townreads.

My soul does die inside every time I list you north of null tho.

[mastina]

i think furative and cephy are both mafia at this point

I've been going back and forth on furtiveglance tbh; a lot of his posts have looked scum to me. But,

There's certain random crap that seems sus to me and certain random crap that doesn't

furtive actually looks town to me here. This page in particular look like he's actually solving, not just pretending to solve.

ceph did you role scum lmao

Quite possibly! I'll leave that read to you tho. (Yes I realize I've first-hand experience of him fooling you but I still think that the husbando link is valuable. So not quite leaving the read to you, as much as, valuing input.)

[mastina]

I don't really find problem with how you handled it
I found a problem in Nancy's handling of it

Funnily enough, I have a problem with you having a problem with it!

Nancy and Yume are both town here.

[mastina]

Hello friends.

Town.

Have we played together enough for you to notice that I always open with that?

Oh yes!

You're still town tho.

Ftr I think Ythan is town since I see no real buddying or pocketing going on rn in our thread from her

This is more or less what I think of you right now, in spite of the potential pocketing from you.

[mastina]

LOCKTOWN:
{Save the Dragons, Yume, Nancy Drew 39}

TOWN:
{Ythan, Gamme Emerald}

LEAN TOWN:
{Aisa}

{furtiveglance}

NULL:
{Flea the Magician, Hu Tao, Cephrir}

SCUM:
{MegAzumarill}

[mastina]

Woah I just realised this setup doesn’t have a fixed number of miselims before Town loses, isn’t maths crazy

Technically yes but if there's two all-town mislims without scum dead, town loses. So we only get two.

my predecessor's silver skin has shed, and a beautiful butterfly has emerged but the butterfly is just another snake

(expired on 2023-01-03 05:46:28)

[mastina]

AMA.

<3 Flea
Why'd you have to break my heart by rolling scum tho?
(Hey you did say anything. )

Also this feels like town mastina

Bullshit.

While I AM town, I certainly haven't shown it yet, not enough for you to develop that opinion of me.

[mastina]

Spoiler: std only nobody else open

megazu is like, scum, right

Worstie are you okay with us dueling you+Meg?

I don't think you're scum with Meg but think Meg is scum.

[mastina]

Spoiler: std only nobody else open

megazu is like, scum, right

Worstie are you okay with us dueling you+Meg?

I don't think you're scum with Meg but think Meg is scum.

worstie I need a response bestie.

[mastina]

The moment Nancy falls off she knows there's several people here who will be on her

Speaking of falling off it saddens me that this is your scumplay.

You're a joy to play with but you're very transparently scum here. </3

[mastina]

I'm at a point where I would be interested to see an iguanas vs snakes challenge. I think all four have scum equity and I'd like to see them under pressure & commit the whole game to sorting them all

Well if you wanna instakill the snakes, sure.

Gamma and Ythan both feel town.

Flea is also scum but I don't wanna kill Nancy yet in order to kill Flea even tho to kill Flea we'll need to do so eventually. (I'm so sorry you got stuck with scum Nancy since we can't win without eliminating you to eliminate Flea. <3)

[mastina]

I'm at a point where I would be interested to see an iguanas vs snakes challenge.

I think all four have scum equity

and I'd like to see them under pressure & commit the whole game to sorting them all

explain this pls? specifically Ythan because that's the one I think makes the least sense rn

Oh, I thought furtive and aisa were the iguanas, my bad. I meant parrots and snakes

Same story, just weaker.

Always kill the snakes there.

[mastina]

Ftr I think Ythan is town since I see no real buddying or pocketing going on rn in our thread from her

This is more or less what I think of you right now, in spite of the potential pocketing from you.

why did you bring this up in this manner?

I was saying that you could

technically

be doing the same thing to Ythan that you were saying Ythan wasn't doing, but that I didn't think you actually did--that you were just town.

[mastina]

Pairs aren’t lovers

oh.

Well that changes things.

fine waiting for you to respond to this if you have ~reasons~ but i'd prefer firing on the iguanas then putting the squeeze on megazu aorn

My reasons were thinking pairs were lovers and thus killing one killed both and thus we could get two birds one stone by eliminating your pair in basically guaranteeing one scum dead between the two of you, maybe two.

[mastina]

Likewise, your mechanical play is miles better than mistaking a partners game for lovers

(not sure how to voice my response to this given ~~thin ice~~ (those who know me should know tho), but this is blatantly false and demonstrably/provably so)

[mastina]

Actually making me tile some tabs, so much for an easy game to come back to.

am back here but sick, likely covid (father pasted positive today, was bad enough he literally needed to go to the hospital), and literally just--need to sleepl.

I know there is stuff to respond to.

I'll say I approve of the challenge, only regret is it wasn't me making it, but yaknow, am sick, so like., Can't pull the trigger, so Yume doing it was the right think to do.

VOTE: MegAzumarill

We stick to thiss. I realize I will need to show my townness (it ain't there yet I can tell you that much), and maybe explain why Meg > wostie as a vote here, but like, I don't think I need to say why Yume is town.

[mastina]

(consider me VOTE: v/la for aboyt 7-10 days[/b] I guess? Technically covid should be just 5 per the cdc but we all know it's actually longer than that so...need the time. Also will be at work back aagain monday in spite of the sickness due to the shit cdc so like, can;'t be here necessarily then.

I knwo I need to play but I am .not. nin. the. shape. to do so right now.

Yume is town, she did announce she was going to do the challenge in the pt a whilke back, and she's incredibly town and is never scum here so with me knowing I am town the options are worstie/NMeg and I prefer Meg in that pair becasue I just don;t think that worstie is the scumier of the two.

Also idk why but in spite of only 2 am, am like this, maybe sickness>L
Cane;t stay tho. Because sleepz eneded.)

[mastina]

Still sick; still need to read properly.

But for notw, notes:

StD/Cephrir: voted the worst initially, then hammered Meg (same order)

furtive: firist Meg vote, fourth vote on the worst, swapped to fourth on Meg

Flea: third vote on Meg when there were four votes on the worst, unvoted when there were six votes


There's not 3 scum in the above, but I bet there's 1-2.
The only world which I see this as possible 0 scum in the bove is if worstie was scum (and even then, it's 0-2).

Scum outside of that group is limited to {the worst, Ythan, Aisa}.

Gamma

could

be scum, I don't think she is tho.


Given these, I think we probably have 3-4 town in the fight right now. Gamma town for making the challenge but I don't want Aisa or Ythan voted out.

furtive isn't someone who I think has the highest odds of being scum, but he's the highest

of the four

, and gives crucial info about the wagon on MegA imo.

VOTE: furtigveglance
(not particularly happy with this selection but again, need to elim someone, he's the least town of the four and most informative imo, but ideally we'd have had Flea or worstie limmed.)

I don't think it matters too terribly much tho because as long as you take it as agiven Yume and Nancy are town (and trust that I am or will be town too), the game's basically autowin because with 3 locktown and only 3 scum with scum being unable to nightkill, we win from poe almost altomatically.

(Also as a reminder if you couldn't tell, still sick.)

[mastina]

to explain my mindset here;

there's 2.5 worlds:
scum-scum were in the arena with wostie-meg;
scum-town were in the arena but scum were demotivated (and inactive);
scim-town were in the arena but scum were demotivated (and active).

It can atauyly be a mixture of multiple worlds. They're not mutually exclusive, they actually build off of each other.

In a world where scum were demotivated and inactive, scum would by necessity be those off the wagon altogether; Aisa, the worst, Ythan. While it's certainly possible for the entirety of the scumteam to be in that grouping, I don't think all three scum were demotivated and inactive. It's 0-3 in here, but my personal belief is 0-1.

In a world where scum had scumscum, they didn't care either way. This makes reading hard, so worstie should be flipped to check this world at some point imo.

In a wolrd where scum were demotivated and yet active, they were likely among the wagons which swapped votes. That's the group with {StD, Cephrir, Flea, furtiveglance}. It's my belief this group is likely to be the case. It's probably not all three, but I'd say 1-2 imo, and not 0.

I probably need to elaborate on these, sorry.

[mastina]

flips as I'd prefer:
furtive (forced from the current group)-->(10 alive, 3 scum worst case)worstie-->(9 alive, 3 scum worst case)flea-->(8 alive, lylo worst case){StD, Cephrir, Aisa}.

In that order, I don't think that there's any world where we end up with 0 scum dead. If furtive isn't, if worstie isn't, if Flea isn't, then there's 3 scum alive. It's not me, Nancy, or Yume which leaves trhee scum for 5 slots, and I townread Gamma/Ythan as the most likely town. Even if 1-2 of Gamma/Ythan are scum via my read being wrong, if we get the 1-2 scum in that group we autowin.

[mastina]

(For the record my current guess is all four combatants town, with scum as being 3 of flea/worstie/StD/Cephrir, but I admit it's possible Aisa is scum there too. I'd prefer furtive over Aisa tho because furtigve gives info about the wagon directlyu, whereas Aisa only gives it indirectly.)

[mastina]

(Cautiously optimistic I'll be back at full strength tomorrow, feel free to mislim to your heart's content tho because *shrug*.)

[mastina]

Okay so in hindsight Ythan might be scum.

I was judging Ythan's towniness off of her earlier shown traits: both in terms of posts made (she was posting multiple times per rl day), and in terms of content made (her posts radiated town).

But I looked at her iso and it looks like that fell off a cliff.

Still tho, this is only a 'might' and I'd prefer to read the entire thread I've missed out on to get a better grip to tell for sure. (Also be given a chance to be shown wrong--Ythan's posting falling off a cliff

could

be because she's scum who ran out of momentum, but it could also just be...yaknow...her being busy irl? So like...I wanna give her some time to show if it's her as scum that ran out of steam or her as town who hit a rl-related wall.)

[mastina]

Oh don't you fucking dare try to make Yume suspicious off of something she does every game.

She literally was giving me more time.

YUME.
Giving me, MASTINA.
More time.

Tell me that's a fucking scum move from Yume, I fucking dare you.

It's not; it's null-at-

worst

, and quite likely, actually solidifies her as town.

Her hopping off doesn't get her towncred; her hopping off doesn't save Ythan; her hopping off does one thing and one thing only; is her attempt to make my life easier.

[mastina]

Challenge: Silver Snakes

So says me and my spirits.

VOTE: MegAzumarill

VOTE: Mega

I can get onboard with it.
VOTE: Ythan

(Cautiously optimistic I'll be back at full strength tomorrow, feel free to mislim to your heart's content tho because *shrug*.)

UNVOTE: to give mastina time to post

UNVOTE: to give mastina time to post

why? There's no deadlines in this game and it's nightless as well

Because someone might hammer before she can be around.

and how would that matter?

And what's wrong with giving her a chance to say something?

and how would that matter?

And what's wrong with giving her a chance to say something?

nothing wrong or right with it, the premise is broken because there is no night phase

And that means you absolutely have to lim now and can't wait a day or two why again?

But whatever, get snippy because I am using common sense.

and how would that matter?

And what's wrong with giving her a chance to say something?

a) what furtive+fenrir are saying, she's likely not going to say it until tomorrow
b) she can say it anytime unless it pertains to her town!Ythan read, in which case why'd you vote there in the first place if you were going to defer to mastina anyway?

Because I am a crap player.

Then you can wait some more.

Like.

Yume's trajectory and priority here is quite clear quite consistent and quite town.

She challenged MegAzumarill + worstie, a group

you admit you think is scum-scum

(Gimli is the worstie slot), largely because I thought that team had scum particularly from Meg.
She voted MegAzumarill, the vote I wanted.
She voted Ythan, during a time I was absent.
When I indicated I was returning soon, she unvoted to give me time to post.

That is not scum-Yume; that is town-Yume.

If Yume were scum she wouldn't have voted Ythan in the first place, and even if she did, she wouldn't have unvoted Ythan when I didn't explicitly ask it of her. Her actions show a consistency in mindset and of having both determined thoughts on her own and also trying to work with me and show empathy and basically be understanding of me.

Don't you fucking DARE call an act of kindness scum-motivated.

[mastina]

(Also at this point we legit do have an autowin. Trust Nancy, trust Yume, and with me as town, we can lim literally everyone else as need be to brute force a win. Every name you add to the town list to trust, the easier the autowin is. But idk who those are since I haven't read the game, presumably there are people who have been hard-spewed-town by this flip; I'd need to actually read the game to know who those are.)

[mastina]

(My preferred challenge today tbh would actually be Ceph vs. Gimli, since the only teams with no bussing are {Aisa, Gimli}, {Flea, Gimli}, and {Flea, Aisa}. Which, while all of those are possible, does lead me to suspect that maybe--just maybe--there is a scum voting. But I've got 28 pages to read so this is mostly based on how strongly I fucking hate 1193.)

[mastina]

MegAzumarill: (7) Gamma Emerald, mastina, furtiveglance, Nancy Drew 39, Yume, Save The Dragons, Cephrir
Yume: (1) Flea The Magician
Not voting: MegAzumarill, the worst/Gimli, Ythan, Aisa

Ythan: (6) furtiveglance, Save The Dragons, Gamma Emerald, Cephrir, Yume, Nancy Drew 39
Aisa: (1) Flea The Magician,
furtiveglance: (1) mastina
Not Voting: Gimli, Ythan, Aisa

And when I say "only teams with no bussing", I mean it.

The wagons on Meg and Ythan are literally identical in names, the only difference is because it was 6 to lim instead of 7 I wasn't on the second wagon. It's otherwise the exact same, just in different order.
Gamma's on both.
furtive's on both.
Nancy's on both.
Yume's on both.
StD's on both.
Cephrir's on both.

{Flea the Magician, Gimli, Aisa} are the only 3 to be on neither scum elimination.

I think that we should probably purge those three first tbh.

Imo Gamma town (I'm not gonna tolerate her attacking Yume tho), Nancy town, furtive/StD I need to read the thread that I haven't read yet to tell (will trust others' takes until then), so that leaves the most likely busser as......

[mastina]

Hello I am still not having read the game but I see I am back in the ring. Perhaps you should look at these and tell me they're from scum.

I will abstain from talking about this game's source material as I have no clue what it is

Scum.

SCUM:
{MegAzumarill}

Can you challenge unilaterally or do both players in a pair have to do it?

I

think

it's just one; the first Challenge issued, is the challenge made for the day. Period. No other options.

If it required both to make a challenge, and/or multiple challenges could be concurrent, and/or the person needed to accept (literally any of these), I'd have instantly challenged MegAzumarill here.

But because the challenge issued mechanics have none of those (at least to my knowledge), the first challenge is the only challenge we get, so alas. I can't be as impulsive as I want to be.

Unofficial Vote Count
None cause there hasn't been a challenge yet I think

I'm genuinely thinking of just challenging Meg here because Meg is like, 100% scum here btw.

I don't really find problem with how you handled it
I found a problem in Nancy's handling of it

Funnily enough, I have a problem with you having a problem with it!
Nancy and Yume are both town here.

my predecessor's silver skin has shed, and a beautiful butterfly has emerged but the butterfly is just another snake

(expired on 2023-01-03 05:46:28)

(Context which Yume can confirm: this was me setting a timer for worstie to town it up, and if he didn't before the deadline I was gonna challenge the worstie-Meg duo. Yume can verify.)

Also this feels like town mastina

Bullshit.

While I AM town, I certainly haven't shown it yet, not enough for you to develop that opinion of me.

Spoiler: std only nobody else open

megazu is like, scum, right

Worstie are you okay with us dueling you+Meg?
I don't think you're scum with Meg but think Meg is scum.

Spoiler: std only nobody else open

megazu is like, scum, right

Worstie are you okay with us dueling you+Meg?

I don't think you're scum with Meg but think Meg is scum.

worstie I need a response bestie.

Pairs aren’t lovers

oh.

Well that changes things.

fine waiting for you to respond to this if you have ~reasons~ but i'd prefer firing on the iguanas then putting the squeeze on megazu aorn

My reasons were thinking pairs were lovers and thus killing one killed both and thus we could get two birds one stone by eliminating your pair in basically guaranteeing one scum dead between the two of you, maybe two.

Actually making me tile some tabs, so much for an easy game to come back to.

am back here but sick, likely covid (father pasted positive today, was bad enough he literally needed to go to the hospital), and literally just--need to sleepl.

I know there is stuff to respond to.

I'll say I approve of the challenge, only regret is it wasn't me making it, but yaknow, am sick, so like., Can't pull the trigger, so Yume doing it was the right think to do.

VOTE: MegAzumarill

We stick to thiss. I realize I will need to show my townness (it ain't there yet I can tell you that much), and maybe explain why Meg > wostie as a vote here, but like, I don't think I need to say why Yume is town.

(consider me VOTE: v/la for aboyt 7-10 days[/b] I guess? Technically covid should be just 5 per the cdc but we all know it's actually longer than that so...need the time. Also will be at work back aagain monday in spite of the sickness due to the shit cdc so like, can;'t be here necessarily then.

I knwo I need to play but I am .not. nin. the. shape. to do so right now.

Yume is town, she did announce she was going to do the challenge in the pt a whilke back, and she's incredibly town and is never scum here so with me knowing I am town the options are worstie/NMeg and I prefer Meg in that pair becasue I just don;t think that worstie is the scumier of the two.

Also idk why but in spite of only 2 am, am like this, maybe sickness>L
Cane;t stay tho. Because sleepz eneded.)

Okay so in hindsight Ythan might be scum.

I was judging Ythan's towniness off of her earlier shown traits: both in terms of posts made (she was posting multiple times per rl day), and in terms of content made (her posts radiated town).

But I looked at her iso and it looks like that fell off a cliff.

Still tho, this is only a 'might' and I'd prefer to read the entire thread I've missed out on to get a better grip to tell for sure. (Also be given a chance to be shown wrong--Ythan's posting falling off a cliff

could

be because she's scum who ran out of momentum, but it could also just be...yaknow...her being busy irl? So like...I wanna give her some time to show if it's her as scum that ran out of steam or her as town who hit a rl-related wall.)

(My preferred challenge today tbh would actually be Ceph vs. Gimli, since the only teams with no bussing are {Aisa, Gimli}, {Flea, Gimli}, and {Flea, Aisa}. Which, while all of those are possible, does lead me to suspect that maybe--just maybe--there is a scum voting. But I've got 28 pages to read so this is mostly based on how strongly I fucking hate 1193.)

MegAzumarill: (7) Gamma Emerald, mastina, furtiveglance, Nancy Drew 39, Yume, Save The Dragons, Cephrir
Yume: (1) Flea The Magician
Not voting: MegAzumarill, the worst/Gimli, Ythan, Aisa

Ythan: (6) furtiveglance, Save The Dragons, Gamma Emerald, Cephrir, Yume, Nancy Drew 39
Aisa: (1) Flea The Magician,
furtiveglance: (1) mastina
Not Voting: Gimli, Ythan, Aisa

And when I say "only teams with no bussing", I mean it.

The wagons on Meg and Ythan are literally identical in names, the only difference is because it was 6 to lim instead of 7 I wasn't on the second wagon. It's otherwise the exact same, just in different order.
Gamma's on both.
furtive's on both.
Nancy's on both.
Yume's on both.
StD's on both.
Cephrir's on both.

{Flea the Magician,

Gimli

, Aisa} are the only 3 to be on neither scum elimination.

I think that we should probably purge those three first tbh.

Imo Gamma town (I'm not gonna tolerate her attacking Yume tho), Nancy town, furtive/StD I need to read the thread that I haven't read yet to tell (will trust others' takes until then), so that leaves the most likely busser as......

I was literally hard-pushing Meg the entire game.

I came around to Ythan scum.

I was advocating for Gimli scum.

And this while yaknow. Fucking sick with Covid.

Now granted.

It doesn't matter; we can literally just brute force a win by keeping Nancy and Yume alive and bam bingo with only one scum alive there's literally no way for the scum to win because Nancy is town Yume is town so we legit win from that and that alone.

But there's only one possible scum in the vote pool right now.

VOTE: Cephrir

Is he actually scum, fucked if I know, but he's got a higher chance of flipping scum than I do!

[mastina]

VOTE: Cephrir

To be clear.

I'm okay with being killed here because we have an autowin--but like. I'm not scum and it should be fucking objectively clear I'm not scum so there's only one name in the pool which gives us a chance at a perfect town win and it ain't mine!

Yume is town; I am town; Cephrir's the only possible scum.

[mastina]

(Also to confirm, yes, it was indeed covid. I tested positive yesterday. Am feeling better now but my life still a mess. And Flea, Yume is right so fuck off with the "demotivated"/"inactived"/etc. bullshit.)

[mastina]

Can you also explain these two posts that were made 13 minutes apart?

I honestly don't see what's the confusion?

There were four combatants. {Ythan, Aisa, Gamma, furtive}.
I thought all were likely town at the time, but that of them {furtive > Aisa} had the higher odds of being sucm.

I thought there were better odds of finding scum outside, in Flea/Wosrtie/StD, but I had to vote someone.


As for have I towned up: in

[some

senses, yes. I know how mountainous games go when you bus scum; Take a look at this game and how scum fared and tell me how likely it is that I, mastina, the one who wrote the article saying not to bus, who has THAT GAME as PERSONAL EXPERIENCE of how badly bussing in nightless goes, is to HARD bus.
I never would bus here, yet alone, hard bus, as scum here, because of the format--bussing is always a risk/reward thing but the reward is NEVER worth it in nightless games and the risk isn't a risk, it's basically gamethrowing. Yet alone two, three times.

I feel like I have demonstrated that I am thinking town, because I have been townbinning the town players like Yume and Nancy.
I feel like I've demosntrated lack of scumness in things like my undemderstanding of the mechanics (where I thought duos dueled and were eliminated as a group).
I feel like the fact that I've been trying to play in spite of having

the best possible excuse

not to (you know what I could've done with covid? Not post at all! Literally not post. At all.), and the fact that I care and that I was positing in spite of not needing to and that I was trying and efforting in spite of having covid and being sick af and being unable to think clearly and yet I was still trying to solve, did vca, did things, was efforrting, and whilke ti was only one post every couple days or so, that's

higher than nothing

. And nothing is what I'd give as scum.

I feel like there's been flashes of my towngame because I've gotten passionate about defending Yume in a way that I don't do as scum.

But like.

Do I think I actually look town, that it's impossible for me to be scum?

Well fuck no, I'm fuckin gsick as fuck. I'm getting better, recovering, am almost over it, but I'm clearly not at 100% yet so how the fuck would I look town? Obviously I wouldn't. I feel that the signs I'm town are there, but they weren't given chance to properly develop. Y'all basically removed any chance for me to be able to demonstrate towniness.

When there's one scum left, there's nothing to become town off of. For me to become town there needed to be more scum alive to help demonstrate my towniness more stronger whne I was healthy and able to post and engage.

The signs of me being town are

there

, but thery'e not gonna get any stronger than they currently are--if I had had time to recover and we were still in D1, then I would've been able to do things like challenge Meg personally, vote Meg hard, come to the conclusion Ythan was scum before Ythan was dead, vote Ythan, stronger advocate for Gimli's death, etc. I could've done all of that if given time to recover, but since the game was rushed to its current state, none of that was given a chance.

I could've defended players who needed defending, and from defending, I would be able to demonsrate towniness more. I could've shown more nuanced thoughts, shown more progression in thoughts, if I was given the chance to, then I would've been able to.

But since that didn't happen, all the things I would normally have to solidify the towniness aren't there; they weren't given a chance to become solidified, they weren't given an opportunity to be able to be developed and become town. It's not that the towniness there isn't there; it is. It's just that it's weak because it wasn't given the strength to grow, if that makes sense. And nwo there's no real method for it to. There's a balance of probability; I think balance of probabilkty still uggests that I'd be town more likely than not. But I'd be lying if that was hard solid town.

[mastina]

you know thats fair, I missed that and she doesn't have the lil banner.

I was so sick I didn't remember to. (That's how sick covid made me.)

I didn't even know I had botched my tags ceclaring it. (I'm still not better btw, I'm mostly better but not.)

[mastina]

Why couldn't she just have bussed her scum partners?

How familiar are you with math?

In a normal game, it takes two mislims to make up for one scum death, pretty sure.

12 alive, 4 scum, at a rate of one elimination to one nightkill, it goes,
one mislim, one kill; 10 alive, 4 scum;
second mislim, second kill; 8 alive, 4 scum.

Now do that with a scum lim thrown in.

10 alive, 3 scum;
One mislim, one kill;
8 alive, 3 scum;
Second mislim, second kill; 6 alive, 3 scum.

Now do that with a second scum lim thrown in.

10 alive, 3 scum.
8 alive, 2 scum.
One mislim, one kill;
6 alive, 2 scum.
Second mislim, 4 alive, 2 scum.

Now do that with a third scum lim thrown in.

8 alive, 2 scum.
6 alive, 1 scum.
One mislim, one kill;
4 alive, 1 scum;
Second mislim, 2 alive 1 scum.

Seems consistent, right? Two mislims regardless.


Okay but remove the nightkill, and suddenly it gets a whole lot worse.

12 alive, 4 scum.
One mislim, no kill.
11 alive, 4 scum.
Second mislim, 4 scum.
10 alive, 4 scum.
Third mislim, 4 scum.
The earliest lylo is 9 alive, 4 scum, requiring 4 mislims to win.

Alright so if it takes 4 mislims to win.

Well then what happens if you remove a scum?

11 alive, 3 scum.
One mislim, no kill.
10 alive, 3 scum.
Second mislim, 3 scum.
9 alive, 3 scum.
Third mislim, 3 scum.
8 alive, 3 scum.
Fourth mislim, 3 scum.
7 alive, the new lylo, means it now requires a total of five mislims to win. Five, instead of four.

Well then what happens if you remove a second scum?

10 alive, 2 scum.
One mislim, no kill.
9 alive, 2 scum.
Second mislim, no kill.
8 alive, 2 scum. Third mislim, no kill.
7 alive, 2 scum. Fourth mislim, no kill.
6 alive, 2 scum. Fifth mislim, no kill.
Lylo at 5 alive then requires a sixth mislim for scum to win. Six, instead of four.

And if you removed a third?

9 alive, 1 scum.
One mislim, no kill.
8 alive, 1 scum. Mislim #2.
7 alive, 1 scum. Mislim #3.
6 alive, 1 scum. Mislim #4.
5 alive, 1 scum. Mislim #5.
4 alive, 1 scum. Mislim #6.
3 alive, 1 scum. It takes a final mislim to win. Seven mislims.

(I'm sorry thsi could have been done faster and more better, but brain dead right now.)

Bussing in a nightless game is a high-risk no-reward play.

So like.
I

could

.
But I really don't think I

would

.

Not after King's Landing especially.

To win a scumgam requires power-efforting and bussing requires power-efforting to give a

chance

at winning. It's muc heasier to defend buddies than to bus and hope YOUR vote which was a bus was more town than any of the OTHER voters (when it often isn't).

[mastina]

Mastina, what's your read on Flea now?

Honestly idk,

could

still be scum but less likely?
Like, significantly less likely.

Flea's posting is more town and Flea challenged/voted Gimli, so like. Unless the plan is to out-duel Yume in a 1v1 during lylo I don't see Flea's path to victory here as scum, so

probably

town?

[mastina]

This argument doesn't convince me because in the scenario that you're mafia, you only really bussed Meg. You never challenged, you claimed to TR Ythan for a while (including voting for me at the time), and I don't really remember your interactions with TW but I remember others pushing them more loudly.

Well no fucking shit, I've been (and still am) sick.

I believed challenging worstie/Meg would kill them both, I did come around to Ythan scum, and while I didn't push worstie, I did push GIMLI.

Literally every post I made on D3 was pushing Gimli.

[mastina]

Once I've calmed down - don't appreciate being told to fuck off regardless of circumstance in a game - I will look over todays other options.

Wouldn't ya know it, Flea?

I don't like being attacked for being fucking sick!

When I said Yume was right I mean Yume is fucking right and being attacked for being sick?

I don't take kindly to that!

[mastina]

that's nice but everyone bussed them so who cares

Has everyone written an article on why not to bus?
Has everyone had personal firsthand experience being scum in a nightless game and knowing how badly bussing as a strat is?
Has everyone done the math for the pros/cons of bussing and realized dead scum add a huge number of mislims needed to win?

'Cause I'm pretty sure I'm the only one who has all three.

[mastina]

I agree with this premise. But who here could be mafia

without

having bussed?

Well, for all three eliminations?

Aisa was off.

But otherwise, yes, scum did bus.

I'm not arguing that scum-in-general wouldn't bus tho.

I'm arguing SCUMASTINA wouldn't bus.

I know the math behind Nightkleess games and how broutal they are for the scum if so much as a single scum goes down and how bussing is almost never worth it.
I have

firsthand experience

of losing a scumgame due to bussing. (In a setup that is considered scumsided, no less! Bussing caused the scum to lose in a game

considered scumsided

and it was specifically BECAUSE of the bussing.)

I literally wrote an article on why not to bus.

Other players don't have that bacvkground, but I do.

It's

opssible

for me to be scum, because scumastina in spite of all of the above has (strategically, mind you) bussed before. Usually when I'm planning to go down. (So like. The most likely scumastina world is one where I planned to challenge worstie+Meg, lose, and get myself+Yume killed under a misunderstanding of the mechanics.)

But while it's possible, it would require me to go against literally every piece of experience I have for

games of this format specifically

.
In games where I bus the scum often get something tangible from the bus, namely things like obtaining power roles, the trust of the town, nightkills to kill town, the abilitry to control the town, etc.

Those advantages don't exist in games of this format. So the advantages behind bussing aren't existent.

Yes, the only possible player to have not bussed at all is Aisa.

So, yes, whoever the scum is likely bussed.

But I specifically know I almost certainly wouldn't.

[mastina]

This is the same energy of mastina as not quite normal multiball 2. She never fake claims ever and then fake claimed beloved princess as mafia

Fuck off with that.

That was consistent with my philosophy don't you fucking try to say it wasn't.

Claiming the inverse affect isn't a lie. Would you say "she never fakeclaims ever and then fakeclaimed town loyal gladiator as a scum disloyal gladiator"?
No, a scum disloyal gladiator is the town equivalent role of a town loyal gladiator so that was a trueclaim. It'd have been gamethrowing to have claimed "town loyal gladiator" as a scum loyal gladiator, so an inverse was needed.
Claiming a role that removes a day as scum who would add a day isn't a lie. It's literally the only true claim that can be made, the town equivalent. It'd have been gametrhrwoing to claim giving the town an extra day when eliminated, so an inverse was needed.

Granted, apparently the listmods consider a strategy that is specifically that (strategic) to be a trust tell so I can't really defend this as much as I want to but don't fucking pretend you know my rules better than I fucking do. That was a trueclaim. So was me claiming D3 IC as a N2 vig. It was the truth from the lens of necessary scum perspective faking town perspective.

[mastina]

Fae seems obvious town to me and has done for a bit, but it seemed like you quite determinedly kept faer in your poe - part of my scumread on you is that your reads have felt quite stale since gamestart

No fucking shit?

But I've got 28 pages to read

I literally haven't fucking read, how the fuck do yuu expect me to have changed reads when I

haven't fucking read the game

???

To develop brand new thoughts from having thought about things without any new info when away from the game??? (Okay to be fair I do that all the time, not helping your case mastina but hey it had to be said. BUT I DIGRESS.)

Well if I was thinking of teh game while dying of a fucking pandamic disease, sure, but lemme tell you, this game never once entered my mind when not posting in it. So the only chance I've gotten to change reads has been hwn I was in the game, and the change in reads IS there, but is not gonna be everything because it's based off of only what I see and hwt I see is almost nothing?

This is a, what, 61 page game?

You know how many of those pages I've read?

Probably 22?

I've read less than one third of the game

, what the fuck do you expect???

Would YOUR reads have changed when you've read like 2/40 of the last 60 pages???

[mastina]

that's nice but everyone bussed them so who cares

Has everyone written an article on why not to bus?
Has everyone had personal firsthand experience being scum in a nightless game and knowing how badly bussing as a strat is?
Has everyone done the math for the pros/cons of bussing and realized dead scum add a huge number of mislims needed to win?
'Cause I'm pretty sure I'm the only one who has all three.

I don't think the first two are relevant when everyone as scum would have done the third

Did they tho.

You underestimate the stupidity of sucm mathing things out.

*I* mathed it out because *I* have firsthand experience.

Lacking firsthand experience, it's not intuitive to inherently innately naturally think of the math involved.

Most scum players are not used to playing nightless games--they don't think about the math involved, so they don't adjust their play, and they think that bussing can still be viable.
I have firsthand experience with being scum in nightless games--so I know about the math involved, and would adjust my play, knowing bussing wouldn't be viable.

You're arguing that "whoever is scum would know the math involved", but that's false--whoever is scum wouldn't know the math involved. If they had, they wouldn't have bussed. I guarantee you whoever is the last scum

didn't

math it out (unless it was Flea but even that's a stretch). Because as scum you need to think to math it out and as scum you don't think about the math unless you have firsthand experience.

The only players here who as scum would math it out are those who have experience with being scum in nightless games.

[mastina]

i haven't painstakingly checked whether it's true that mastina's reads are stagnant, but that is a meta scumtell for her, she probably won't deny this

Eh it depends, balance of probability it's more scum than town but my reads this game actually HAVE evolved, so...

[mastina]

Uncalled for

Wouldn't ay know it?

That's what I think of yor take!

Not enjoying mastina's energy currently

I tend to take poorly to being accused of bullshit especially when I am goign through rl shit.


I don't find the idea of being called scum here reprehensible--but the reasons for the callout are.

I literally have shown how I could be scum, here. The steps needed, the process required. It's

possible

. Imo, not probable, but it exists. It requires logical leaps, it requires specific mindsets, it requires stretches, but it's

there

.

I don't disagree to being in the PoE for instance. I'm not town enough to be outside of it.

But people need to be held accountable for their reasons and I'm not gonna tolerate the bullshit ones.
I'm literally okay with being voted out.
I'm not okay with the reasons being

used

and I will not let them stand.

[mastina]

you can stop being toxic the game is over

oh

[mastina]

I literally have shown how I could be scum, here. The steps needed, the process required. It's possible. Imo, not probable, but it exists. It requires logical leaps, it requires specific mindsets, it requires stretches, but it's there

Apparently the game's done anyway. But you say stuff like this, and then you call yourself empirically proven town 5 seconds later

Yes??? The two aren't mutually exclusive?

[mastina]

Well, how did I do, mastina?

You did good! <3

[mastina]

Btw since I was uninvolved in the town stomp here, I wanna nominate the town players who

were

most involved in the town stomp but because I never fully read the game, I dunno who the stand-outs were.

Can someone give me some ideas so I can nominate the townies who deserved it?

[mastina]

Btw since I was uninvolved in the town stomp here, I wanna nominate the town players who

were

most involved in the town stomp but because I never fully read the game, I dunno who the stand-outs were.
Can someone give me some ideas so I can nominate the townies who deserved it?

In terms of challenges, Yume, Gamma Emerald and Flea The Magician all issued them. I'll add in Save The Dragons for a good read on Cephrir

They're not the only one that scumread them, you know.

Yeah that was what I was looking for, more--the players who were huge in contributing without being the one making the challenge.