large normal 243: lindOVER

[Bub Bidderskins]

First game in nearly 10 years. The meta's still to random vote at the start of day 1 I assume?

[Bub Bidderskins]

First game in nearly 10 years. The meta's still to random vote at the start of day 1 I assume?

You beat me...My last game was in 2016.

vote: Bub Bidderskins

for showing me up.....

I deserved this.

But on second thought screw you.

VOTE: vote: curioskarmadog

[Bub Bidderskins]

lol you can tell I'm rusty because I don't know how the vote tags work.

[Bub Bidderskins]

It begins

Hello everyone

So right off the bat I'm somewhat suspicious of both Kawaii and Hu Tao here. This is admitedly somewhat weak because the game just started, but both of these posts are really fluffy, non-commital and not progressing the game. Now, is this progressing the game more than a random vote? I dunno, but the reason why "random" votes are a thing is to create an initial paper trail of some sort...they aren't really random, so it immediately puts the scum in a bit of a pick of whether or not to bus. So far, these posts are just the most flimsy, "hey I'm here but not actually advancing the game" kind of posts.

I'm, going to go ahead and VOTE: Hu Tao


Mainly because it was another post right after a fluff post by Kawaii. Kind of reads as scum thinking "okay, need to say something now to not look suspicious" while being non-comittal.

Also going to put a

finger of suspicion on Kawaii

for similar sorts of reasons, but I think it's very unlikely that both Kawaii and Hu are scum. No way a scum comes in right after their buddy to make an almost identical post.

[Bub Bidderskins]

let me play the devil's advocate to your accusation: what you pointed out isn't unique to those two users, since savethedragons (i'll abbreivate to STD if that's ok) also just said "hi" without casting a vote, so wouldn't the same kind of logic apply to them?

and while people do vote for reasons during rvs its redundant because these are completely unaligned reasons that would be the same regardless of rand, so the votes are equally as non-commital and passive as the entrances, and the argument falls apart pretty quickly because of that

Sure, it's just the the timing that seemed a little...eh to me. Sort of "hey, let's show my face so everyone knows I'm cool but not actually try to move towards finding scum>" I'll admit it's weak and I'm not married to this tell, but my general read of scum behavior is that they're like politicans who'll pop in to show themselves but don't actually want to be attached to a wagon.

I'm much more confident in my read that it's very unlikely both Hsu and Kawaii are both scum just because of their interaction. It just seems like scum wouldn't banter with each other about such fluff just right out of the gate.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Im sold.

However, Im going to

vote Kawaii

I hate finger of suspicions...its like getting credit for a vote without having to do anything. If Kawaii flips scum, this looks sketchy.

consider this my finger of suspicion (any hypocrisy) on Bub

Fair enough, but just out of curiosity, why are you more suspicious of Kawaii than Hsu?

[Bub Bidderskins]

Cephrir reads as pretty town to me. His posts basically amount to "chill out" which doesn't seem like something scum would say.

In my mind, scum would want to sort of half-assedly back a wagon without really putting themselves out there. Kind of blatantly saying "chill out" like Cephrir did just doesn't read to me as the sort of thing that would occur to scum to do.

Also, schadd, where's my pic of Lindor's sexy hair? Could you at least give me some Ohtani or Dansby Swanson hair?

[Bub Bidderskins]

I appreciate y'all trying so hard out the gate but I think most of what's been argued so far isn't really alignment indicative

Also btw FoSing is out of style these days

I feel like everything is alignment indicative. Every post is made with intentions. Its not up to the poster to express this, but up to the player-base to interpret.

Both town and mafia can make contentless posts for no reason or for whatever reason really. It is a common mistake for town to assume that every post has intention.

VOTE: Greeting

Mind elaborating?

[Bub Bidderskins]

Okay, time to stop pretending I actually think just saying "hi" is all that scummy. I agree with all the folks who said it's not that alignment idicating. Yes, it's a huge stretch, but I was trying to get some actual conversation started. I'm of the opinion that the sooner you switch from pleasantries into actually forming bandwagons the less time the scum have to coast. The one piece of hard info from this that I do believe is that I seriously doubt both Kawaii and Hsu are scum. It wouldn't surprise me if one or neither are scum, but I would be surprised if both are. To me at least, posting back to back with fluff posts with your teammate is something scum would be too self-conscious to do.

Before anything else UNVOTE:

I'm getting a mild townie read from Hsu but I'm not 100%. They didn't panic or immediately deflect when under some mild pressure, but did use it as opportunity to ask questions. For example, I read their post #59 questioning curiouskarmadog's vote for Kawaii over Hsu as a good faith attempt to scumhunt and not a panic deflection. Still early and I'm not married to this read, but for now in the town pile.

Right now there are three people I'm legitimately suspicious of:

Glitch

ballpoint

curiouskarmadog

Gonna state reasons below.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Glitch

This sequence of posts feels scummy to me. Twice posting about the idea of creating content without actually creating content. I'm gonna give him some benefit of the doubt on the last post because people have lives, but that's two posts over the course of nearly two full days promising the idea of furthering scumhunting without actually doing anything.

Mod

: Vote count is incorrect, this is my first post and as such I have not voted yet. Thanks for modding a large. That’s a big task to take on but I love a good large so thanks for the work you’re putting in.

Hello all. Been two years since I played but I’m excited to be back. I saw a few others are back from hiatus as well. I imagine some of us are back cause of the newsletter. I know I am. Cool deal.

Lots of talk about RVS and how useful/useless it is so far. Let’s railroad someone and see what happens from there. Maybe some actual content will start.

VOTE: Hu Tao

Lots of talk about RVS and how useful/useless it is so far. Let’s railroad someone and see what happens from there. Maybe some actual content will start.

VOTE: Hu Tao

you don't think there's anything of note in the last 3 pages?

Actual content sure. Noteworthy and AI, on page 3 not really.

I will say I’m so glad there’s not 406 pages to read between signing on. My last large I could barely keep up.

Going in to work but I’ll be back with a few thoughts after my work day. VOTE: Unvote

[Bub Bidderskins]

Ballpoint

I had the same instinct as Malcom

Ballpoint feels scummiest to me so far on gut instinct alone, feel like they're picking/probing at a lot of things in a way that makes them look busy and inquisitive but without there being much substance beyond that. There's a caginess to their play but also a desire to look busy and active that isn't chiming with me so far.

Hu Tao feels a little bit scummy too.

Ballpoint's posted a fair amount, maintaining activity, and making some prima facia reasonable...yet uncommital statements. For example:

Sure, it's just the the timing that seemed a little...eh to me. Sort of "hey, let's show my face so everyone knows I'm cool but not actually try to move towards finding scum>" I'll admit it's weak and I'm not married to this tell, but my general read of scum behavior is that they're like politicans who'll pop in to show themselves but don't actually want to be attached to a wagon.

I'm much more confident in my read that it's very unlikely both Hsu and Kawaii are both scum just because of their interaction. It just seems like scum wouldn't banter with each other about such fluff just right out of the gate.

there's a distinction between AI and wifom. even if you do believe everything that has been posted has some sort of motivation, it might just be irrelevant because there's an equal chance that the user posted it as town or scum, which is exactly what those two posts are: there's nothing distinct about posting "hi" for either alignment, making the alignment read a massive stretch.

Yeah this is true, but it just kind of muddies the waters in general. This would implicate ballpoint and Hsu as a scumteam, but weirdly ballpoint random voted Hsu earlier? So if you don't think it's alignment indicating why are you still voting for Hsu now that Hsu is under at least superficially legitimate suspicion? Ballpoint never unvoted but casted doubt on the reads of the person's they're voting for. It's possible this is not alignment indicating and ballpoint just random voted and didn't give their random vote much thought, but still curious.

Lots of talk about RVS and how useful/useless it is so far. Let’s railroad someone and see what happens from there. Maybe some actual content will start.

VOTE: Hu Tao

you don't think there's anything of note in the last 3 pages?

that was a really interesting reaction to greeting's post

These two posts again highlight what Malcom was saying and I agree. Allusions to the idea of moving the game forward without real teeth.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Ballpoint

I had the same instinct as Malcom

Ballpoint feels scummiest to me so far on gut instinct alone, feel like they're picking/probing at a lot of things in a way that makes them look busy and inquisitive but without there being much substance beyond that. There's a caginess to their play but also a desire to look busy and active that isn't chiming with me so far.

Hu Tao feels a little bit scummy too.

Ballpoint's posted a fair amount, maintaining activity, and making some prima facia reasonable...yet uncommital statements. For example:

Sure, it's just the the timing that seemed a little...eh to me. Sort of "hey, let's show my face so everyone knows I'm cool but not actually try to move towards finding scum>" I'll admit it's weak and I'm not married to this tell, but my general read of scum behavior is that they're like politicans who'll pop in to show themselves but don't actually want to be attached to a wagon.

I'm much more confident in my read that it's very unlikely both Hsu and Kawaii are both scum just because of their interaction. It just seems like scum wouldn't banter with each other about such fluff just right out of the gate.

there's a distinction between AI and wifom. even if you do believe everything that has been posted has some sort of motivation, it might just be irrelevant because there's an equal chance that the user posted it as town or scum, which is exactly what those two posts are: there's nothing distinct about posting "hi" for either alignment, making the alignment read a massive stretch.

Yeah this is true, but it just kind of muddies the waters in general. This would implicate ballpoint and Hsu as a scumteam, but weirdly ballpoint random voted Hsu earlier? So if you don't think it's alignment indicating why are you still voting for Hsu now that Hsu is under at least superficially legitimate suspicion? Ballpoint never unvoted but casted doubt on the reads of the person's they're voting for. It's possible this is not alignment indicating and ballpoint just random voted and didn't give their random vote much thought, but still curious.

Lots of talk about RVS and how useful/useless it is so far. Let’s railroad someone and see what happens from there. Maybe some actual content will start.

VOTE: Hu Tao

you don't think there's anything of note in the last 3 pages?

that was a really interesting reaction to greeting's post

These two posts again highlight what Malcom was saying and I agree. Allusions to the idea of moving the game forward without real teeth.

[Bub Bidderskins]

AHH, I accidentally double posted!

curiouskarmadog

This is who I think is most scummy at the moment.

VOTE: curiouskarmadog

Why? None of their posts have seriously moved towards scumhunting. In fact, to the extent that they've expressed theories on how to scumhunt, they've done the opposite -- or even worse -- not followed through on what they promised/gave the illusion of doing. First:

It begins

Hello everyone

So right off the bat I'm somewhat suspicious of both Kawaii and Hu Tao here. This is admitedly somewhat weak because the game just started, but both of these posts are really fluffy, non-commital and not progressing the game. Now, is this progressing the game more than a random vote? I dunno, but the reason why "random" votes are a thing is to create an initial paper trail of some sort...they aren't really random, so it immediately puts the scum in a bit of a pick of whether or not to bus. So far, these posts are just the most flimsy, "hey I'm here but not actually advancing the game" kind of posts.

I'm, going to go ahead and VOTE: Hu Tao


Mainly because it was another post right after a fluff post by Kawaii. Kind of reads as scum thinking "okay, need to say something now to not look suspicious" while being non-comittal.

Also going to put a

finger of suspicion on Kawaii

for similar sorts of reasons, but I think it's very unlikely that both Kawaii and Hu are scum. No way a scum comes in right after their buddy to make an almost identical post.

Im sold.

However, Im going to

vote Kawaii

I hate finger of suspicions...its like getting credit for a vote without having to do anything. If Kawaii flips scum, this looks sketchy.

consider this my

finger of suspicion (any hypocrisy) on Bub

Earlier I asked why Kawaii and not Hsu? If they believed me, why not vote for Hsu? Sure it's early and essentially a random vote, but I asked for explanation directly in post #39 and got crickets. Like, the whole idea of starting a flimsy wagon at the beginning was to generate some conversation about what scummy behavior is...but there's no effort to actually discuss that behavior.

Second...

I vote Kowahbunga for town leader.

(attempt to make friends)

then

(tells some jokes)

fun. clearly cant be scum

there should be a sarcasm font.

Making some vague allusions to the idea that Andate is scummy with no follow-up or serious pursuit. Just trying to sow generally mistrust on people in low-cost ways is scummy. This makes me think Andate is town -- conditional on curiouskarmakitty being scum -- because this is way too weak to be a bus. Also, curiouskarmakitty themselves said that fingers of suspician are cheap because it's a way to get credit for suspecting folks without doing the work...but here they are doing something very similar. I know they were intentionally hypocritcal earlier for a laugh (I don't read that as scummy) but this seems actually hypocritcal in a way that would be beneficial for scum.

also lets get this wagon started...

more votes on me please, lets get an early wagon started for giggles and see what happens.

this Day 1 fluff business is done. The true hunting of scum happens on the wagons!!!!

The wagon's already going my friend. Maybe try actually scumhunting instead of saying that you're going to do it.

I'm happy with my vote.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I appreciate y'all trying so hard out the gate but I think most of what's been argued so far isn't really alignment indicative

Also btw FoSing is out of style these days

I feel like everything is alignment indicative. Every post is made with intentions. Its not up to the poster to express this, but up to the player-base to interpret.

Both town and mafia can make contentless posts for no reason or for whatever reason really. It is a common mistake for town to assume that every post has intention.

VOTE: Greeting

Mind elaborating?

"It is a common mistake for town to assume that every post has intention."

I believe this sentence is a scumslip.

I see where you're coming from and it's reasonable enough to throw a D1 vote Greeting's way over that, but it seems a little flimsy for me -- at least for a vote at this stage where I believe there's much more solid evidence of scummy behavior among glitch, ballpoint, and curiouskarmadog.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Feeling stronger and stronger about my curiouskarma read that they're scum. Really feels like flailing and a half baked and reactive scum read on Andate -- someone on the CKD wagon. CKD's posts really don't read like honest faith scumhunting but reactive and made up reasons to try and get wagons going on people. This is why I feel like Andate's town conditational on CKD being scum. I really feel like CKD has been pushing a bs mislim on Andate -- it doesn't read like bussing behavior at all because Andate was under no serious pressure earlier.

VOTE: curiouskarmadog

bub noting that karma's explanation for voting kawaii was effectively bullshit is the most villager-y thing he's done all game, and karma's chances of being wolf were raised by a solid 17% because of that

seem legit, cant argue math.

VOTE: curiouskarmadog

I don't have many

reads

, but this is just "I'm pushing a low poster cause I can" and it's "here's a push, but I can't push too much just cause there's nothing for the slot, but if I shade her enough, I can get votes there"

sorry, only enough room for 1 dog in this town.

is that what I said? Where did I remotely indicate I thought you were a low poster? Also compared to who? Are you a low poster? Did I indicate I thought you were a low poster OR did I note that you only tried to make friends and told a joke to get people to like you. Did I even vote you in that post? Also, interesting phrasing there. "reads". Who uses reads? Scum just vote and make up a reasons. They dont use "reads" because they know who scum is.

this reeks of someone trying to come up with a reason to join a wagon, but just makes stuff up. Also slight slip.

VOTE: Vote Andante

also still waiting on Bub to answer my question.

after that, will give a full scum list.

What question?

[Bub Bidderskins]

I have a fairly strong townread on Malcomtucker. Seems pretty honest and good faith in reads. Also, the number of town reads seems like townie behavior. It's better for scum if they can maintain a larger pool of vaguely suspcious people -- more targets for mislim that way. Trying to remove potential targets works against scum's interest.

Btw I think promising content and failing to deliver it is a scumteam and that's why I'm voting glitch

I agree. There are an unfortunate number of lurkers in this game, but I don't think straight up lurking is really all that alignment indicating. Promising content and then lurking though...that seems scummier to me.

[Bub Bidderskins]

What question?

speaking of honest scum hunting. you went through my posts (I assumed you did, because you are scum hunting right?) and didnt see a question directed at you?

How do you know I am "flailing" if you didnt ready all my post. Im confused. (hint post 136)

So doing this unncessary nonsense is just so scummy. You asked so many random questions to so many random people. Many of them rhetorical, none of them important or insightful. If you actually cared about the answer you would reproduce it. But you dont't really care about the answer because you're just flailing trying to make it seem like you're doing good faith scumhunting when you are asking banal and shallow questions.

But I did find the question(s) I think you're referring to, they're in this post:

Bub,

Do you think avoiding a direct question is scummy or a townie action?

Did you thoroughly read (try to find scum) when you said the below?

I'm getting a mild townie read from Hsu but I'm not 100%. They didn't panic or immediately deflect when under some mild pressure, but did use it as opportunity to ask questions. For example, I read their post #59 questioning curiouskarmadog's vote for Kawaii over Hsu as a good faith attempt to scumhunt and not a panic deflection. Still early and I'm not married to this read, but for now in the town pile.

So instead of him looking scummy to you, you vote me?

In your “you are not scum hunting post”

You completely leave off my question to Hu Tao, why?

IN post 96 (that you did post), I am highlighting to common scum tactics there. Waiting for Andante to address.

also

unvote

And you can kind of see my point here. There's a bunch of questions here, none of them important or insightful, and it's not clear that all of the are addressed to me. But let's go through:

Do you think avoiding a direct question is scummy or a townie action?

I think it depends on the context. If it's a question about your reads, for example, it would be scummy to dodge because you're trying to obfuscate the fact that your "reads" are all bs. But if it's just tangential questions meant to distract from scumhunting, it's not necessarily scummy to ignore the question.

Did you thoroughly read (try to find scum) when you said the below?

I'm getting a mild townie read from Hsu but I'm not 100%. They didn't panic or immediately deflect when under some mild pressure, but did use it as opportunity to ask questions. For example, I read their post #59 questioning curiouskarmadog's vote for Kawaii over Hsu as a good faith attempt to scumhunt and not a panic deflection. Still early and I'm not married to this read, but for now in the town pile.

Yes, I did do a read of Hsu's reaction. That's part of the reason why I started the wagon to begin with -- put Hsu in the kitchen and see if they could stand the heat. But even more importantly, try to get reads based on how various other people reacted to the wagon. My read is pure vibes, but the quick posting, kind of stream-of-consciousness questions seem geniune. Sure, it could come from scum, but based on their reaction to the (albiet superifical) pressure I'd say they're more likely town that I'd expect by random chance.

In your “you are not scum hunting post”

You completely leave off my question to Hu Tao, why?

This is just sealioning. Again an example of what I've been talking about -- a complete refusal to do actual work but asking questions expecting others to do work. This seems like a scummy move because you get credit for seeming like you're scum hunting but others are actually doing the work.

If the question you are referring to is this:

Also btw FoSing is out of style these days

I dont think it was ever in style.

It begins

Hello everyone

So right off the bat I'm somewhat suspicious of both Kawaii and Hu Tao here. This is admitedly somewhat weak because the game just started, but both of these posts are really fluffy, non-commital and not progressing the game. Now, is this progressing the game more than a random vote? I dunno, but the reason why "random" votes are a thing is to create an initial paper trail of some sort...they aren't really random, so it immediately puts the scum in a bit of a pick of whether or not to bus. So far, these posts are just the most flimsy, "hey I'm here but not actually advancing the game" kind of posts.

I'm, going to go ahead and VOTE: Hu Tao


Mainly because it was another post right after a fluff post by Kawaii. Kind of reads as scum thinking "okay, need to say something now to not look suspicious" while being non-comittal.

Also going to put a

finger of suspicion on Kawaii

for similar sorts of reasons, but I think it's very unlikely that both Kawaii and Hu are scum. No way a scum comes in right after their buddy to make an almost identical post.

Im sold.

However, Im going to

vote Kawaii

I hate finger of suspicions...its like getting credit for a vote without having to do anything. If Kawaii flips scum, this looks sketchy.

consider this my

finger of suspicion (any hypocrisy) on Bub

Why vote him over me if you're "sold"?

LOL.....

what exactly do you think his point was there? break it down what YOU think the point is please.

Then yeah I did notice your question to Hsu as it was it was one of the reasons I think you are scum. Just asking "please explain what you think his point is" isn't actually accomplishing anything. It's just asking a totally toothless question that doesn't actually help to find scum.

I feel very good about my vote for CKD. I've made my case, but at this point I think a read of their iso kind of speaks for itself.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Man I really don't get where ballpoint's coming from. Why would throwing weird shade at the CKD wagon be scummy...so much so that you'd swap off. The reason scum would want to throw shade on a wagon is if that wagon's a scumbud, so why not stay on the CKD wagon.

Seems very flip-floppy to me. Definitively suspicious of ballpoint right now.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Man I really don't get where ballpoint's coming from. Why would throwing weird shade at the CKD wagon be scummy...so much so that you'd swap off. The reason scum would want to throw shade on a wagon is if that wagon's a scumbud, so why not stay on the CKD wagon.

Seems very flip-floppy to me. Definitively suspicious of ballpoint right now.

it doesn't have to be w/w? there's been instances where people shade wagons so they can go "see how right i was" without actually fighting the wagon itself. either way, greeting's post is real low-blow to literally everyone who voted ckd while using that "fact" to accuse Hu

Sure, but then why not stay on the CKD wagon? You're throwing a lot of spaghetti around hoping it sticks to something.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Man I really don't get where ballpoint's coming from. Why would throwing weird shade at the CKD wagon be scummy...so much so that you'd swap off. The reason scum would want to throw shade on a wagon is if that wagon's a scumbud, so why not stay on the CKD wagon.

Seems very flip-floppy to me. Definitively suspicious of ballpoint right now.

it doesn't have to be w/w? there's been instances where people shade wagons so they can go "see how right i was" without actually fighting the wagon itself. either way, greeting's post is real low-blow to literally everyone who voted ckd while using that "fact" to accuse Hu

Sure, but then why not stay on the CKD wagon? You're throwing a lot of spaghetti around hoping it sticks to something.

because im not that convinced they're scum anymore? i explained this already bub, cmon

But that's kind of the point. This waffling back and forth between the wagons that are cool is scummy behavior.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Glitch did deliver some content and legitimate opinions after prodding. Could be scum reacting to a stimulus, but this also makes it more plausible that he's town and were just busy over the last few days. Not comfortable quite putting him in the town bucket, but the main reason I had a scumread on him was that he promised content without delivering. At least at some level he has delievered content. That's enough for me to think he's town...at least at the moment when I feel like there's some far more likely scum about.

Really feel like the whole Andate and Greeting wagons are a huge distraction when CKD's out here. Also really don't like how ballpoint slid off the wagon to hop on the obvious competitor's wagon as soon as the CKD wagon started getting serious. Makes me think a SKD/ballpoint scumteam is pretty plausible.

[Bub Bidderskins]

yes. catch one scum, then figure out who their partners are after you have information. you'll run yourself in circles trying to preflip and solve on info that could be wrong

it's how i play anyway. sure, if someone has zero plausible partners, that's an issue, but otherwise, don't twist yourself in knots not eliminating someone scummy because your other scumreads are bussing them

I agree, at least at this stage. Even the strongest scum reads 1 day and 15 pages in are going to be unreliable. Ballpoint's posting has been a weird mix of over-confident and slippery the whole day.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Softclaiming a vague power-role is absolutely the scummiest possible reaction to building pressure.

At this point I'm locked in on the CKD wagon.

[Bub Bidderskins]

A fullclaim can get counterclaimed. Soft-claiming here is the scummy way out -- you try to relieve the pressue on yourself with no possibility of contradictory evidence.

[Bub Bidderskins]

for Bub
dont want to repost the huge wall that was 242.
however my question was simply this.

in my post 136, I ask why you decided to leave off my question to Hu Tao when you made your "CKD is scummy because he is not scum hunting case". you post all my other posts, but deliberately left that post out. I wanted to know why?

and you still actually havent answered that question. Why did you chose to leave that post out when you posted ALL of my other post to "prove" your point. Clearly you cherry picked post and that post did not fit into your narrative.

Sorry about the wallposting.

I didn't cherry pick -- I picked posts that were representative. Your question to Hsu doesn't go against the narrative, in fact it exemplifies it. You asked Hsu a banal and vague question that's unlikely to actually advance the game state. But you did it to make it look like you were scumhunting so you could point to it if and when accused of not scumhunting.

Look back at my post, I actually think I did myself a disservice by not quoting your question to Hsu in post #95 because it would have made my point stronger. It fed into my vibes that you were posting stuff that wans't meaningfully scumhunting but in the moment I was posting the other examples sprung more easily to mind.

I also did answer your question to me in post #242 but I guess you didn't like/notice my answer.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I also don't understand Cephrir's weird distaste for Glitch.

[Bub Bidderskins]

At this point, I really dont know if you are scum or just laser focused on a wrong read. So we all know you are set on me being scum....what are your other Scum reads?

Right now, I feel like the stuff you've done is clearly the scummiest out of anyone. The weak, wishy-washy "scumhunting," overly defensive and reactive reaction to serious pressure, and the scummiest possible claim means that my scumread of you is stronger than anyone else.

Ballpoint seems like a likely scumbud with you. Hopped off the wagon as soon as it got serious and slid onto the Andate wagon for questionable reasons. Also, as other people have been saying, they post a lot without saying much. Just feels like they're trying to play it both ways -- get credit for being on their scumbud's wagon (in case you're eliminated).

Glitch was a scumread, but that was based on them promising content and not delivering. They've more or less delivered, so there's no particular reason to think they're scum. At this point they're a null read for me. In isolation their posts seem fairly townie, but the analysis could have just been in response to the pressure.

I'm somewhat suspicious of Stargazer and Hu at this point. Stargazer's just been a lurker. Their iso has got basically no content. Town do lurk all the time, so it's not that alignment indicated, but I don't want them to get away with it. Hu is a difficult read for me because I feel like I have some first impression bias, but maybe I'm overcorrecting? I started the wagon early on them for flimsy reasons for the purpose of generating some conversation, and my immediate read on their reaction was townie, more as a vibes thing. But recently they've been lurking. As soon as the serious pressure dropped off Hu receded into the background.

[Bub Bidderskins]

is the person with no posts ever actually scum these days?

Well, they kind of look like scum when they do something like that.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Ahhh, I think skygazer's lurking is vaguely scummy but I'm really uncomfortable with how this wagon has formed.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Just seems like it's happening in a really easy and low effort way.

[Bub Bidderskins]

miller is not a power role

What they said was:

yeah I am soft claiming....if the definition of a power role is non-vanilla, then yeah, I am a "power role".

So something like a miller isn't against what they said. Though in the case of miller specifically, why not just claim it outright?

Maybe it's just that it's been nearly 10 years since I've played mafia on this site and the meta/theory has developed on this, but I don't see how a weaselly soft-claim justifies jumping on the wagon. At least in my book that's a strong scumtell. But maybe my understanding of this is super outdated.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Bub Bidderskins, what are your thoughts on Hu Tao

I mentioned this earlier, but they've slid into a slight scum read for me based on how they slid out of view as soon as they weren't under any kind of pressure. Obviously I think CKD and ballpoint are scummier, but I definitely prefer a Hu elimination over Stargazer. The way the Stargazer wagon came together was way too easy and lazy which made me uncomfortable. Seemed like some folks were goin "welp, gotta lim someone, how about the lurker?"

[Bub Bidderskins]

in fairness the meta has chnaged while you've been gone in such a way that lurkers are more frequently scum than they used to be

If that's true I guess that makes a Stargazer wagon more palatable to me. Though I still prefer Hu because I feel like the pattern of their play is scummier than just lurking throughout, which is what Stargazer has done.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Honestly, the game should head more towards holding the least contributing person's toe to the fire. The more scum talk, the more caught they get imo

Yeah, I see the point. At the very least lurking is anti-town, so pressuring lurkers to contribute can help the town even if the lurker is town.

I still think that Hu is scummier than Stargazer because I think their lurking reads as more strategic.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I liked Hu Tao’s posts before Andante push, so don’t really like that Andante went there, especially considering I’m suspicious of Andante and Glitch individually, and it looks a little like a chainsaw, which goes perfectly in line with the chest puffing Andante.

Could you explain what you mean by chainsaw in this context for us time travelers?

[Bub Bidderskins]

Oh man NJAC totally flew under the radar for me.

I think that's because my initial gut read of them was slightly townie based on their pechant for townreading people. I feel like scum's bias is towards casting a broad net of potential suspects rather than trying to clear people.

But geeze they haven't contributed anything significant beyond a few early town reads.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Looks like the CKD wagon isn't happening, so I'm fine letting them report on whatever their role is after N1.

UNVOTE:

I would vote for Hu right now, but with Cehpir's vote aren't we 2 votes away from elimination? Not going to vote for them yet to make sure they don't accidentally get limmed before getting the chance to claim.

Another thing of interest:

yall are so much fun to talk to, let me say... like, if you wanna talk about the weather I'd be down.. like, anyone wanna talk to meeeee???

i wanted to ask: what is the justification for absolutely railing hu tao? is it still that glitch interaction you were preaching about earlier
hu tao has just been *existing* this whole game and i don't really have an opinion on them. this wagon would have been great earlier in the day to pressure them into a response but i see skygazer, greeting, and kawaii as objectively more scummier than hu tao and that's where im most confident voting in
it doesn't help that a LOT of this playerlist are lurkers/inconsistent in their content, and as you said, i feel like i've been seeing the same rotating carousel of faces for a LONG time already

same goes to NJAC but even more so
like i get that nobody likes lurkers, and i do as well, but there's nothing to really learn from limming him especially since he has 0 actual interactions
i never really go off on info lims but there's nothing even there in NJAC
i really hope some of these slots get replaced eventually though

This seems like an attempt to put some cold water on the Hu wagon but then following it up with a comment about NJAC to make it seem like ballpoint's not just openly defending their scumbud.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I fundamentally don't understand why anybody sees Glitch as mafia at this point

[Bub Bidderskins]

I'm open to being wrong/persuaded, but I don't understand the case against them. A bunch of people have been throwing them out there as Mafia following his posts delieveriong reads without actually explaining what their doing.

Like I haven't seen one single reason why anything they've done is scummy outside of some original concerns about inactivity after promising activity that were quickly alleviated.

[Bub Bidderskins]

That's just because whenever you post you post every single one of your sentences in a different post. The accumulation of content you've produced is actually very small.

[Bub Bidderskins]

i still dont especially want to kill hu =_=

Then why are you voting for them?

[Bub Bidderskins]

My god I cannot understand the scumcase for Glitch. Multiple people now have acted like they've done something scummy but I've seen literally nobody explain why anything they've done is scummy.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Because it's getting close to time

VOTE: Hu

I think that among the serious wagons they're the scummiest and we'll probably learn something more than limming Star it NJAC.

[Bub Bidderskins]

You got a claim NJAC?

[Bub Bidderskins]

At this point I'm not opposed to limming NJAC but I don't like how it feels like more of a policy lim than anything.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I'm doubtful that Glitch is scum. IMO it's way more likely that one of NJAC/Hu are scum.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Also, Andate it would be way easier for us to lim somebody if you weren't constantly flip-flopping between every popular wagon.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I'm doubtful that Glitch is scum. IMO it's way more likely that one of NJAC/Hu are scum.

what makes you so much more convinced about those 2?
or do you feel better about another option? like, FL being scum?

It's not so much that I feel super strongly about Hu/NJAC being scum than Glitch's posting following his first couple of posts have actually been productive. As I've said before, I'm legitimately baffled that people think he's scummy. A bunch of people are saying he looks scummy but nobody has given any reason why.

NJAC's a straight up lurker. Hu's a lurker who only posts stuff when they're under direct suspicion. Both of their behaviors' -- especially Hu's -- are miles scummier than anything Glitch has done at least after their second post.

[Bub Bidderskins]

i just want to kill hu tao

I don't wannaaaa

Hu Tao wagon is a counterwagon formed to hinder the glorious NJAC wagon

I could be wrong, but I thought the Hu wagon materialized long before the NJAC wagon.

[Bub Bidderskins]

i just want to kill hu tao

I don't wannaaaa

Hu Tao wagon is a counterwagon formed to hinder the glorious NJAC wagon

I could be wrong, but I thought the Hu wagon materialized long before the NJAC wagon.

Yes. I was the new player let's put pressure on them wagon earlier on. But it derailed. And how could you be wrong you started it?

I didn't start it, at least not the serious wagon. I started an early bs wagon on you to get conversation started but didnt' seriously start thinking you looked like scum until you started dropping contribution the moment you weren't under any suspicion.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Mod that's not fair. Lindor's got a couple of walks today -- he's contributing.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Still prefer a Hu lim here as they've been more actively scummy I feel. NJAC reads as just more of a lurker/low activity player. Hu's pattern of activity reads to me as more alignment indicative while limming NJAC feels more like a policy lim than anything.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Feel like this day has been kind of a mess frankly.

The suspicion on Andate is making me consider iso-ing them. I wonder if I've ignored them because I read CKD as scum largely because of his suspicious push for Andate making that seem like scum/town interaction.

Still really feel like limming Hu is the play here. Most likely to be scum among current wagons.

[Bub Bidderskins]

still don't feel good about any of these wagons =_=

What's a wagon you would feel good about, and is it really Enchant?

[Bub Bidderskins]

Bub: saying the same thing about the wagon for days without reevaluating even with no deadline (kinda sussy even though I townread them currently)

I have been constantly re-evaluating. Remember I originally pegged you as town after the BS wagon I started on you. But your pattern of activity has looked really scummy since then. Namely -- lurking and not contributing until significant pressure builds and then flailing around aimlessly only in the service of self-preservation. Your posting pattern and content hasn't changed -- why should my scum read of you change?

is spamming your thoughts as one sentence posts the meta now or something

zzzzz

All these zoomers out here treating this like a Discord.

[Bub Bidderskins]

@Bub what are your reads on Cephrir and Greeting?

Cephir's someone who has started to move into my pool of suspects. My initial gut read on them was town, but over the course of the day they've flip flopped a lot between various popular wagons and have been complaining about how we can't get a wagon together while taking actions that make it harder to actually get a wagon together.

Greeting for me is a pure null read at the moment. I didn't buy Kowah's initial assessment that they made a scumslip early on, but Greeting hasn't really contributed much since.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I've never been a fan of meta tells or defenses...especially when they come from the player being targetted themselves. Referencing your own meta-play is a really weak defense in my book. "Trust me guys, when I play as scum I play different from this."

Sure.

I'm more than happy to jump back on a curious wagon.

VOTE: CuriousKarmaDog

I still find it weird how after CKD's super scummy soft-claim everyone seemed to back off. But they were V/LA for a bit so pushing the wagon didn't seem like it would accomplish anything.

Independently I still feel like HU's play is scummy, but they were on the Curious wagon earlier and tried to get it started now. Need to think about what this means after we get a flip.

[Bub Bidderskins]

VOTE: hu

CKD wagon isn't happening, of the players with a chance of getting limmed they've acted the scummiest.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Given that Enchant was replacing into a game several pages in I think it's reasonable to give them at least a little leeway early on, so I'm not feeling the enchant wagon.

At this point I'm not sure how much value an extension will be. We'll just continue talking in circles around the same handful of scummy people. All the rapid fire sentence-by-sentence posting from both Hu and Andate is starting to muddy my ability to read either of them. I think in both cases that style of posting is counter-productive to helping us find scum, but it might not be alignment indicative. Either way, I think we're better of limming one of them and them since either could easily be scum and then we can go from there. Once we have some confirmation of alignment I think the mess that is/was this day will become clearer.

And also the meta tells are starting to really annoy me...and this applies to multiple people. If players are playing well they'll vary their playstyle from game-to-game, people in general grossly overestimate their ability to read people, and self-meta is categorically bs. I don't consider any of the meta stuff to be fruitful at all.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Willing to jump onto the Andante wagon in the interest of pushing us towards some sort of resolution on this day. Still up for CKD because it really feels like we let them off easy, and limming a lurker like Stargazer is also not terrible though I don't feel like limming a lurker is going to give us a much better chance of hitting scum than throwing darts at the board at random. But maybe the theoryn on limmin glurkers has advanced in the 10 years since I've played.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Given that Enchant was replacing into a game several pages in I think it's reasonable to give them at least a little leeway early on, so I'm not feeling the enchant wagon.

this is a common line of thought but it's not effective ime

scum replacements are still scum

also if you're expecting enchant to post normal content, dream on - it's not something that will change with time

Could somebody please, for the love of god, explain to me how Glitch was scummy at all from their 3rd post on? Enchant is the Glitch replacement, no?

[Bub Bidderskins]

It's not like I've got a super strong town read on them or anything, and I am willing to be persuaded of that slot's scumminess, but I have not seen anything resembling a case against them in the slightest. It's just a bunch of massively low-effort bs about how they look scummy without any analysis or argument of how their play is scummy at all.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Bub really do be just looking for the most viable wagon like a moth attracted to blood, it's pattern I've noticed most of the time when he pops in to post.

Cephrir's frustration over how he's being read by some players also seems quite genuine to me but idk if it's AI yet...

I've been very consistent with my reads. CKD is likely scum and got off easy for some reason despite a super sketchy claim, and Hu has been my main number 2 read since the middle of the day. The other wagons on scummy players I could be persuaded to jump on if we come to a time crunch because not limming D-1 is a failure, but, unlike a huge number of slippery folks here, I've actually been consistent in my reads.

If you want to go after someone who's constantly jumped to popular wagons, look at Hu. Maybe Cephir as well who constantly seems to complain about how everyone looks vaguely scummy but has never actually pushed anyone.

It's not like I've got a super strong town read on them or anything, and I am willing to be persuaded of that slot's scumminess, but I have not seen anything resembling a case against them in the slightest. It's just a bunch of massively low-effort bs about how they look scummy without any analysis or argument of how their play is scummy at all.

Putting in this much effort to discredit/scrutinize the wagon on the Glitch/Enchant slot (on numerous occasions) despite not strongly town reading them also just feels off to me... especially since Enchant isn't a leading wagon atm.

It's because I'm legitimately confused about the Glitch/Enchant scumread. It just seemed like it came out of nowhere and nobody every explained it. Like all the lurkers I get. Andante I get because she's been super slippery and jumping all over the place. Greeting even I get because they haven't contributed much but keep popping in with pretty low effort posts. But Glitch seemed like they put in effort but didn't have the time IRL. I didn't understand why people thought Glitch's posting style was scummy but haven't batted an eye at all the one-sentence semi-spam posts that do nothing to advance the game state.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Their analysis felt forced - ie, their comments were uninteresting in a way that makes me think they were created just to have something to say rather than to scumhunt - and their manner of writing was really stilted and awkward, which could be personality but I don't know them and it could also be scum

I guess I can see how you would think that, but to me it really just read as a posting style. I read it as thought out more than forced.

[Bub Bidderskins]

If you want to go after someone who's constantly jumped to popular wagons, look at Hu. Maybe Cephir as well who constantly seems to complain about how everyone looks vaguely scummy but has never actually pushed anyone.

In what way am I not pushing both Hu and Enchant?

Everything you say is actually quite passive:

eh, fine

VOTE: hu tao

i still dont especially want to kill hu =_=

id go whichever of enchant and hu tao has more support

hey here's a wild idea what if i'm just right and all these wagons are on town. what am i supposed to do? im voting hu tao only because i think the other wagons are even worse

i can't interest anyone in enchant. malcolm is widely townread for some mysterious reason, we tried skygazer already (and wouldn't you know it, they've gone back to lurking), i don't have any reason for kittytacky they're just not being useful, and that's pretty much everyone i feel like voting. no one is going to vote any of these people with me if i don't have a better reason than "vibes," but i don't

i get offended when i draw suspicion that amounts to "i think you're such a bad scum player that you can't fake any reads" or whatever because i'm actually a very good scum player and perhaps you'll notice i've been on this website for 17 goddamn years surely i learned how to fake a read at some point

I think NJAC is town unfortunately

VOTE: Hu Tao, I guess

Sorry

I don't think I'm cherry-picking from your iso here either -- these actually seemed like the more directly aggresive posts I could find. You never really directly put pressure on them or build much of a case. It's all "welp, I guess Hu/Enchant are scummy and I suppose I'll vote for them but I don't feel great about it." kind of stuff. Granted I didn't do a really thourough search of your iso, so I could totally be missing something, but if I were Enchant or Hu I would not be feeling pressure from you. I might be feeling pressure in general because of the number of votes on me, but none that really spawned from your posting.

[Bub Bidderskins]

If you're saying I just jumped to popular wagons you must not be reading the actual game

Uhh....

Looks like Greeting was originally the scummy one and Glitch was the one I was scumreading later. So they aren't as scummy as I thought in one slot.

VOTE: Curious

My vote being here is who I'm most comfortable with for now

VOTE: glitch

Curious isn't going anywhere so I think this is the next best vote

I still think this is town but who cares

VOTE: NJAC

VOTE: glitch

VOTE: NJAC i don't care anymore

My intuition is telling me NJAC is a bad vote out today.

VOTE: Andante

Let's see what dreams are made of

VOTE: karma dog

NOW you're talking

VOTE: Curious

VOTE: Adante

I don't think curious will happen sadly

UNVOTE:

I'm willing to vote outside of adante

That's a lot of flip-flopping between basically every one of the popular wagons.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Don't think Ceph seems scummy at all either.

I think you have TMI that Ceph is town, and you being scum also fits with the "ehhh adante is getting scummy..." you're trying to throw enough shade my way to support the lim on me, after you started the game trying to pocket me...
Cause I can definitely point to something scummy ceph did... not that I SR him right now, but to say "not scummy at all" that's a lie..

Call me crazy but I legit think Malcolm is scum here.
VOTE: Malcolm

This is the kind of shit that's keeping us from doing anything productive this game. Every other day someone like Andate just randomly decides to go after someone completely different based on a conditation scumread.

Malcom's interaction with Cephir only looks scummy if Cephir is scum. Why try to start a nonsenical wagon on someone under no suspicion based on a scumread that's conditional on one of the major wagons being scum? Just vote for Cephir?

TBH I'm not sure how this kind of activity is that benefical if Andate were scum, so to me it reads as anti-town behavior that's not all that alignment indicative.

This day desperately needs to end. We are not learning anything productive by going in circles. For my money Hu is the best bet of people on the board. But stop throwing around random spaghetti at people for whom there is zero chance of a wagon happening this day. Based on how the day/night goes down we can re-assess. But this is counterproductive.

[Bub Bidderskins]

NJAC's comment towards Kitty's keyboard thing is probably just dumb and NAI y'all should chill

Bub really do be just looking for the most viable wagon like a moth attracted to blood, it's pattern I've noticed most of the time when he pops in to post.

Cephrir's frustration over how he's being read by some players also seems quite genuine to me but idk if it's AI yet...

I've been very consistent with my reads. CKD is likely scum and got off easy for some reason despite a super sketchy claim, and Hu has been my main number 2 read since the middle of the day. The other wagons on scummy players I could be persuaded to jump on if we come to a time crunch because not limming D-1 is a failure, but, unlike a huge number of slippery folks here, I've actually been consistent in my reads.

If you want to go after someone who's constantly jumped to popular wagons, look at Hu. Maybe Cephir as well who constantly seems to complain about how everyone looks vaguely scummy but has never actually pushed anyone.

It's not like I've got a super strong town read on them or anything, and I am willing to be persuaded of that slot's scumminess, but I have not seen anything resembling a case against them in the slightest. It's just a bunch of massively low-effort bs about how they look scummy without any analysis or argument of how their play is scummy at all.

Putting in this much effort to discredit/scrutinize the wagon on the Glitch/Enchant slot (on numerous occasions) despite not strongly town reading them also just feels off to me... especially since Enchant isn't a leading wagon atm.

It's because I'm legitimately confused about the Glitch/Enchant scumread. It just seemed like it came out of nowhere and nobody every explained it. Like all the lurkers I get. Andante I get because she's been super slippery and jumping all over the place. Greeting even I get because they haven't contributed much but keep popping in with pretty low effort posts. But Glitch seemed like they put in effort but didn't have the time IRL. I didn't understand why people thought Glitch's posting style was scummy but haven't batted an eye at all the one-sentence semi-spam posts that do nothing to advance the game state.

Ceph and to a lesser extent Hu are people I scumread or have scumread so I have looked at them, you've just been one of the most willing players to change your vote to accommodate a larger wagon and it'd come with you popping in just to say you're looking to support a more viable wagon. Consistency or not the willingness to flip flop on your priority just reads off to me.

Re: Glitch/Enchant, where do you read the slot currently? Are they a solid town read for you?

At this point I'd say my read on them is slightly town, but mainly because they've been on the recieving end of some incredibly dumb pushes that are completely vapid. My read of them will shift depending on if the likes of Cephir/Andante/Kitty are scum or not. It's not that Glitch/Enchant have been especially townie, but the case against them is so dumb and devoid of evidence that it makes me think they're town being pushed by scum.

[Bub Bidderskins]

The whole case against skygazer boils down to them being a massive lurker. I get it, and it's not an unreasonable vote, but I don't think they're especially likely to be scum.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Ugh, stargazer is so anti-town but it really feels like there are scum piling on to that wagon because of how easy it is. It just really has the feel of scum pivoting the town towards the most low-effort target.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I'm not on board the Enchant wagon.

Stargazer wagon is just way too lazy for me to take it seriously.

There's not enough support for more clearly scummy players like Hu/CKD.

So I guess that leaves Andante. She's been very eratic hopping between every conceivable popular wagon and has definitely been instrumental in us being unable to get any traction on anybody. It's the end of the day, we need to lim somebody, and I think she's the last at least palatable option.

VOTE: Andante

[Bub Bidderskins]

Not really about the game but more about modding the game, I understand the principle behind extending the days for replacements, but I do wonder if it would be better off to clamp down on a hard deadline at this point.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I'd be down on a flash wagon on Bub if it means we end this goddman day.

[Bub Bidderskins]

At this point I'm like 90% sure that Skygazer is town and the wagon on them is full of scum. It's so fucking easy to jump on that wagon and skygazer's anti-town behavior is so flagrant it actually reads as town.

[Bub Bidderskins]

i do think there are multiple ppl here who know how slippery i am as scum and know this isny v likely to be scum me

Ugh, maybe I'm overthinking/WIFOMing this to death, but this sort of obviously and nakedly bullshit defense is so flagrantly awful that I doubt it would come from scum. I know there are also sorts of ways to play scum, but the total lack of any sort of self-consciousness just doesn't feel like it's coming from a town slot.

[Bub Bidderskins]

but the total lack of any sort of self-consciousness just doesn't feel like it's coming from a town slot.

EBWOP: meant to say that it

DOES

[b/]

feel like it's coming from a town slot

[Bub Bidderskins]

im willing to vote bub if he doesn't stop defending obv scum skygazer and keeps shading the wagon without receipts

What do you mean by "without receipts?" The dumb push on skygazer is a major reason I'm voting for Andante and thought Hu looked scummy.

Skygazer looks like the town player that scum/sheep town flock to because it's an easy wagon.

[Bub Bidderskins]

WHOOOOOO

Fuck sorry I missed your question because it was lost in all the garbage 1-sentence posts.

Hu, Andante, and the Cephir slot seem to be slipping onto that wagon really easily and cheaply. I literally said in my previous post that the lazy and stupid push for skygazer was a reason I thought Hu/Andante are scummy. It's just so cheap and easy and those players have been bouncing around to popular wagons like crazy.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Also that would have been pretty obvious to anyone actually reading my post instead of just posting garbage without thinking.

[Bub Bidderskins]

It's just so cheap and easy and those players have been bouncing around to popular wagons like crazy.

did you ever think we literally just want the day to end? and as long as we're not voting a TR of mine, I don't really care who we vote

Skygazer has been a cheap and easy wagon to push for long before we started to get to the day's deadline. It was always the laziest/lowest effort option and it served to diffuse wagons around the Hu/Andante wagons -- one of which I'm sure was one scum.

[Bub Bidderskins]

It's just so cheap and easy and those players have been bouncing around to popular wagons like crazy.

did you ever think we literally just want the day to end? and as long as we're not voting a TR of mine, I don't really care who we vote

Skygazer has been a cheap and easy wagon to push for long before we started to get to the day's deadline. It was always the laziest/lowest effort option and it served to diffuse wagons around the Hu/Andante wagons -- one of which I'm sure was one scum.

and the wagon on me isn't a cheap and easy push? like wtf are you talking about

You've bounced around to every halfway popular wagon that has come up. Anytime it seems like a wagon might move -- boom -- Andante is there to slip in, never actually starting the push but more than happy to help it along. What you've done is way more textbook scummy behavior than just lurking.

And also you're super active and people have had varying reads of you. Skygazer is a full-on lurker who at no point inspired any kind of defense (other than me). It's just so obviously the easy wagon for scum to push through cheaply under ostensibly to "get the day over with" because it's really hard to distinguish scum from town sheep on a low-effort wagon like that.

[Bub Bidderskins]

You've bounced around to every halfway popular wagon that has come up.

BECAUSE I AM TRYING TO END THE DAY. NOT ONCE DID YOU SPEAK UP SAYING THAT POPULAR WAGON WAS TOWN

But you really aren't. You were bouncing all over the place long before the day was close to over. I mean, just look at this shit:

VOTE: karma dog

fineee I'm moving on to
VOTE: Kawaii

VOTE: Hu Tao
found mafia. thank me later

VOTE: Hu Tao
VOTE: Hu Tao
VOTE: Hu Tao

VOTE: NJAC

I like the people on this wagon!
VOTE: Glitch

Is there a pie you haven't stuck your finger in? And at the end here you started throwing around bs wagons on people like Malcom that had no chance of going forward. You're totally eratic behavior is exactly the reason we're having a hard time ending the day. If you wanted to end the day you would have taken the exact opposite course of action from what you've taken -- i.e. focus on suspects and push them. You kind of tried to do that on Hu earlier on but then gave up the second they actually got some pressure on them.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I love how the second we get someone in here who has a fresh look at the game they realize that skygazer is not scummy.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I love how the second we get someone in here who has a fresh look at the game they realize that skygazer is not scummy.

I said it first :^)

Is that true?

I guess I'm committed to defending ckd now. But that also means I need to provide an alternative. I don't think I can get Andante wagon to work with 4 days left.

...Does anyone townread Skygazer?

[Bub Bidderskins]

@Bub

I townread Skygazer

Yesz

Man this feels scummy to me. You're trying to have it both ways -- starting some initial suspicion on Sky, voting for him late in the day:

VOTE: Sky

E-2

This is flipping town though

But then trying to act like you read them as town the whole way.

I think GIF slid under my scumdar for most of the day...but this is really pinging it now.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I think GIF slid under my scumdar for most of the day...but this is really pinging it now.

I mean...

VOTE: GuyInFreezer

Oh my god are you allergic to having a legitimate opinion?

[Bub Bidderskins]

I do feel that gif maybe shouldn't be voting his townread

That’s what I’ve been doing until today actually
Until there was “no deadline for D1” post from the mod

And then I decided that this day really has to end

But there are/were other options. Hu was a wagon, Andante is still a wagon. Do you think they're more likely to be town than Stargazer?

Maybe, but what's really scummy for me is not so much the vote for Sky to end the day, but the attempt to take credit for townreading them before the fact. It really reads like scum who knows that skygazer is going to flip town.

[Bub Bidderskins]

But there are/were other options. Hu was a wagon, Andante is still a wagon. Do you think they're more likely to be town than Stargazer?

I townread Hu so I never joined the wagon. I’ve been on Andante wagon literally until an hour ago, and literally only voted for Stargazer because it was the biggest wagon and the day has to end despite townreading her. If Andante wagon gets track again I’m going to jump back on.

GIF + Andante scumteam calling it.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Early town vibes from both Flavor and Andante.

For some reason I kinda get town feeling from Flavor wanting to hold back on their early read a bit. Scum Flavor typically likes to take control of the game from my experience (I think they state that in their guide), and in a quiet activity game so far it'd be a perfectly early chance for them to create mischief and get a wagon going on a townie if they were scum.

Andante stating they could make a better scumcase on themselves feels townie because I'm not sure it's the type of statement scum wants to be making early in the game unless very confident. It's also a good and clear way of articulating why you think a scumread on you is weak without just looking pissed off at getting scumread.

read on andante here is lame, this guy could be mafia?

what you all think of malcolm?

The fact that Andante has repeatedly been trying to deflect to Malcom makes me think it's unlikely that Malcom is scum with Andante...particularly if the scumcase on Malcom is based on a questionable townread of Andante.

Maybe Andante is playing 9000IQ games with us, but at least a couple of times they've come out of nowhere to try and deflect something in Malcom's direction. Doesn't seem like something you'd do with a scumbud.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I just want to end the day really

If I had a nickel everytime somebody complained about wanting to end the day while taking actions that prolong the day, I'd be a rich man.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Eira needs some pressure on D2...particularly since ballpoint was kind of suspicious before, but a flash wagon on someone who hasn't posted is a distraction at this point.

Eira will definitely have questions to answer on the next day, but this sort of random, out of nowherer attempt at a flash wagon is precisely the sort of thing that has been derailing us all day long.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Eira needs some pressure on D2...particularly since ballpoint was kind of suspicious before, but a flash wagon on someone who hasn't posted is a distraction at this point.

Eira will definitely have questions to answer on the next day, but this sort of random, out of nowherer attempt at a flash wagon is precisely the sort of thing that has been derailing us all day long.

bub, how do you feel about flipping greeting?

I don't think it'd be as good of an elim this day as Andante. Andante's been active and has had multiple interactions with a bunch of people that could give us a lot of information even if she flips town. An Andante flip could help us learn some things about, e.g. Hu, CKD, and people who tried to half-assedly pump the Stargazer wagon in response. More importantly, a greeting wagon would be yet another random distraction wagon preventing us from ending the day.

But glancing quickly back through their post...they've kind of flown under the radar most of the game. Never power-lurking like Stargazer but never contributing all that much...just sort of piping in once in a while so you remember they're here.

I think them and the ballpoint/eira slot need serious pressure on D2 because they've kind of slid into the background on D1. But I'm going to wait until the filp before reading them seriously. I think a big problem for us this day is people have gotten way too distracted going down various paths of analysis that might be rendered moot (or at least substantially changed) depending on a flip.

[Bub Bidderskins]

skygazer would be a much better flip than andante as well

Hard disagree. They've posted nothing and I think it's going to be hard to distinguish scum from town on that wagon if Sky flips town. If they're town it's likely that some of you, Hu, Andante, and maybe some other folks on that wagon are scum, but I'm sure many of the people who casually slid onto that wagon are town. Town can be lazy, and wanting to lim a powerlurker isn't a terrible thing for the town to want.

[Bub Bidderskins]

what's your read on Bud, Gimli?

Hrmmmmm, I don't like how they got on the Andante wagon fairly quickly after replacing in, but then started fairly quickly bouncing around. I also really don't like how they've tried to get multiple distraction wagons going on players who are unlikely to get limmed. I was also starting to sour on the Cephir slot before they replaced out because they seemed like one of the folks who were very lazily getting on the Skygazer wagon.

But, and this is key, at the moment I can't piece together how this course of action would be helpful for scum Gimli unless Andante is his scumbud, but then why vote for her right out of the gate? Maybe he saw that she was the most popular wagon and he tried to get some townie brownies by bussing but then hopped off once a distraction wagon seemed plausible. Maybe, but I think a flip will help clarify things.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Y'all posting this much on Easter Sunday is an attack on my religious liberty.

I'm willing to jump on the Kitty wagon in a minute but I need to catch on the ten (10!) pages that happened since and do a quick vibe-check iso on Kitty. They didn't ping me at all through the day...but looking back they posted on a lot which kind of suggests something.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Oh shit Kitty's iso is bad y'all. Cheaply jumping onto the shitty glitch wagon and also cheaply jumping onto the shitty skygazer wagon.

VOTE: kitty

[Bub Bidderskins]

Still think Andante's more likely to be scum unless there was something in the last 20 pages that indicated she's townie that my eyes glazed over because there's only so many 1 sentence fluff posts I can take before it all gets re-routed into the garbabge dump section of my brain.

Kitty's iso is legitimately worse than greeting's though. Greeting's play has not been great as they slid on the shitty skygazer wagon, but their play is more plausibly read as disengaged/limited time rather than fluff posting.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Just got caught up.

Flip basically clears Andante/FL unless one of them is operating at 9000 IQ. The kitty wagon came out of nowhere -- no way scum starts a wagon on their bud in that way. Also makes me think Gimli is likely town.

Probably 1...maybe 2 scum at the end of the wagon? Decent chance that one of these:

Save The Dragons, curiouskarmadog, Bub Bidderskins, Hu Tao, Kowahbunga

Is scum. Kowah stated earlier that they would hammer on anybody and followed through here, I know I'm town of course but I can see why people would think me getting on that wagon at that time looks like a bus. That leaves CKD and Hu as likely bussers. Andante being more or less confirmed town in my mind makes me lean scum on CKD because the original scum case on them was based on a suspicious push on Andante. Hu's another one in a likely scum spot.

But I think the most likely scum are those off the wagon who were hanging around at the time. This implicates Malcom, Enchant, and Skygazer. Venmar didn't get on the wagon but wasn't posting -- worth pressuring there in case it was selective lurking. Eira has never been around, and ballpoint was at least somewhat suspicious early D1. I think we need to pressure that slot to get some activity from it.

For now, VOTE: Hu

[Bub Bidderskins]

so cute Bub.....caught up, but question not answered.

Oh shit Kitty's iso is bad y'all. Cheaply jumping onto the shitty glitch wagon and also cheaply jumping onto the shitty skygazer wagon.

VOTE: kitty

Still think Andante's more likely to be scum unless there was something in the last 20 pages that indicated she's townie that my eyes glazed over because there's only so many 1 sentence fluff posts I can take before it all gets re-routed into the garbabge dump section of my brain.

Kitty's iso is legitimately worse than greeting's though. Greeting's play has not been great as they slid on the shitty skygazer wagon, but their play is more plausibly read as disengaged/limited time rather than fluff posting.

HOWEVER, quick question Bub, when declaring that KT's iso was scummy, why did you feel that way? Was it just KT jumping on Sky and Glitch wagons?

Sorry, I kind of skimmed through to today and missed your question. It was that combined with the fluff posting. Up until the wagon actually started on Kitty I honestly forgot he was even in the game because he was a lurker who wasn't getting pushed at all. I think the jump on the Sky wagon in particularly looked pretty shifty in retrospect, but I think that jump got lost amidst the much more active players who were more obviously shifty in their push for Skygazer...at least in my eyes. This was how he got on that wagon:

I'm kind of tapped out because I'm tired of this day. I still think Glitch/Enchant is scum.

VOTE: Skygazer

And I believe that was the fifth vote for Sky. Pretty classic cheap middle-wagon scummy behavior.

To be clear, none of this was super strong, but it was strong enough to convince me that it was a decent enough D1 try to lim him.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Bub, I am struggling with your alignment. I cant tell if your obsession with me is coming from a place of misguided town or focused scum. I cant see how after the events of yesterday you STILL "think" I am scum.

I'm re-evaluating given the flip. All of my initial reasons for think you are possible scum still stand, and your softclaim was super scummy. The end of D1 moved so fast that it's hard to process exactly how it went down, but your vote on the KT wagon, along with mine and Hu's, are the ones in the range you would expect for an end-of-day bus.

FYI, I just looked him up, KT wagon started about 1040pm on Sunday and wrapped up 2amish on Monday....during those times he WAS NOT POSTING anywhere on site (at least under Venmar). So taking away the selective lurking....other thoughts?

Going to re-evaluate Venmar. My gut is that he's not that scummy, but that's just based on the fact that he took over a lurker slot and posted some reasonable-sounding stuff, so it's pure vibes.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Hrmm, looked through the Venmar ISO and I'm leaning town here...if it's true that he actually wasn't on at all during the Kitty wagon. Sure he didn't talk about kitty, but nobody was really talking about kitty up until the actual wagon formed. He wasn't trying to get the town off-kilter and he actually made worthwhile points re: people cheaply jumping on the sky wagon.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Let's check out this one. Things that stand out most are the 3 dueling wagons, obvi. Kitty is voting Enchant and while it's not uncommon for scum to sit away from the wagons, i feel they're sitting on a townie. 1 of the 3 dueling wagons is probably scum.

I town read Andante and NJAC, so what are the odds...it's Hu Tao there again. Thing that gives me pause is that the NJAC wagon looks pure, which would incriminate NJAC a bit, but I like NJAC for town more than GIF or Skygazer. I think Skygazer has townie reasons later as the game goes on wagonomically, such as the dueling wagons with Andante make me feel Skygamer is the fade scum wanted.

Kitty being outside the dueling wagons makes me feel there isn't more than 1 other scum off the dueling wagons.

Gimli/NJAC/Malcom Tucker include ZERO or ONE scum in them. Never 2, never 3.

Probably a scum on Hu Tao regardless of Hu Tao's alignment.

NJAC (5): Flavor Leaf, GuyInFreezer, Greeting, Skygazer, Andante
Hu Tao (4): Venmar, Save The Dragons, Bub Bidderskins, Eiralax
Andante (4): curiouskarmadog, Kowahbunga, Enchant, Hu Tao
Enchant (2): KittyTacky, Gimli
Greeting (1): NJAC


not voting (1): MalcolmTucker

Worth pointing out that NJAC was straight up lurking at that time. He feels super town now (largely because of him getting on the Kitty wagon early), but at the time it wasn't a super scummy thing to be jumping on the NJAC wagon just in the interest of getting him into the game.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Venmar, who's the scumteam?

[Bub Bidderskins]

Venmar instantly outing that NJAC visited him reads more like a naive town reaction to me. He gets the message, gut is that it's good for the town to have all the info possible, so he spills the beans. Scum would have the info whether or not he posts about it in the public thread.

[Bub Bidderskins]

VOTE: malcom

[Bub Bidderskins]

VOTE: malcom

How come?

Very half-hearted, careful reads and trying to have it both ways. Trying to keep NJAC in the suspect pool reads as scummy to me.

Also the half-hearted attempt to push against the Kitty wagon early in that wagon's formation reads as scummy.

It's the pattern of behavior from scum who wants to look town, and the hard evidence we have lines up with you being scum.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I'm down for an Eira wagon but it'd be preferable to have a replacement to actually pressure in that slot. Also ballpoint's posting in that slot wasn't great to begin with.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Think this is the first time we've played together, Bub, but would also add in my defence I tend to be pretty half-hearted and noncommittal when I'm in an uncertain position about my reads...just tend to approach the game from as honest POV as possible when I'm town, and sometimes that will mean crappy, uninspired or confused reads when I'm spewing out my thoughts.

It's certainly the first time we've played because this is the first game I've played since 2013.

I put basically zero stock into meta arguments, and even less into self-meta claims.

[Bub Bidderskins]

VOTE: Hu

[Bub Bidderskins]

Kowah's case on Andante is pretty compelling, but I think it boils down to Andante just being all over the place. That's a big reason why the wagon her got going -- she had a finger in absolutely every pie and demonstrated basically no conviction throughout the day. So, in isolation, scummy.

But I can't square that with Andante being so early on the Kitty wagon. There's a chance that wagon doesn't get off the ground without Andante jumping on it, but maybe Andante was acting out of pure self-preservation and, like FL pointed out, were kind of hoisted by her own petard for throwing suspicion everywhere willy-nill.

I still think we're more likely to find scum bussing at the tail end of that wagon (CKD, Hu...I'm also in this group but I know I'm town) or off the wagon entirely (GIF, Eira's slot, Malcom, Enchant).

[Bub Bidderskins]

But I also don't know what to make about Andante flip-flopping on the Kitty wagon very early.

VOTE: kitty

This was the third vote on the wagon after FL and Gimli. NJAC's vote quickly followed. Then...

The extent of Andante's tunnelling on me makes me lean more town again there. The case isn't strong and they're basically trying to use whatever they can to make the scumread fit even if it's illogical, but I think scum in that position is more careful to actually mount a logic-based case.

but we’re talking about me? when do I even have this huge “logic based case”??? this feels like your attempt to go “don’t worry I tr you!” to get me to stop tunneling

also “what’s the case on kitty I’ll vote there to end day” is that you saying you know this flips town and you want one of us town to own it so it’s out fault not yours?

VOTE: malcolm

Andante tries to stoke a Malcom wagon, but FL poo-poos it here:

Malcolm could have just stayed quiet if he were scum here unless defending scumKitty.

Don’t see him being scum here, though

Before Andante gets back on the Kitty train.

mmk kitty wagon. full send. no brakes
VOTE: Kitty

Hrmmm, maybe Andante getting on this wagon early isn't as townie as I thought. Reading back through it Andante being scum with Kitty is not all that inconsistent with this behavior especially if Andante felt like Kitty was a weaker scum player who was unlikely to survive very long. Again, Kitty's iso was really bad on re-read.

[Bub Bidderskins]

VOTE: andante

[Bub Bidderskins]

Honestly, Andante just reflexively attacking absolutely anybody who dares to attack her is way scummier than anything else she's done all game. Above everything else Andante's motivations can best be explained by self-preservation more than anything...which is very scummy.

[Bub Bidderskins]

andante's posts are making me scumread her pretty heavily tbh

Gimli is no way town here… you do not go from being convinced im town to all this pivoting to “yeah i’m gonna vote her!!” like vote me if you sr me. none of this “yeah!! yall lead this charge!!! I support!!”

Lol I couldn't even finish my post before Andante comes in with yet another example of what I was talking about.

She's done basically no legitimate scum-hunting -- just attack people on her wagon.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I don't think I've played many (any?) games with a vig, so I'm not sure if there's theory on this, but my gut is if there's someone out here who's scummy we should just lim them and not rely on coaxing a vig kill. It's entirely possible we don't have a vig at all -- there were no N1 kills after all.

Limming Andante is the play here.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Hey everyone!

Can you please order these six players from the scummiest to the least scummy?

{Enchant, Venmar, GIF, Malcolm, Eira, Sky}

Scum - GIF, Malcom, Eira/Sheep*, Enchant, venmar, Sky - Town

*The Ballpoint/Eira/Sheep slot can move around a lot since Eira was totally AWOL. This placement is entirely based on some early D1 ballpoint posts that read as scummy to me.

[Bub Bidderskins]

if andante is scum I have a feeling she is not being bussed

The Andante wagons, both on D1 and now, have been incredibly hard to get going even when her behavior has been very scummy.

[Bub Bidderskins]

GIF should be in everyone's potential scum pile just for the shenangians the pulled vis-a-vis Skygazer on D1.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I love how the second we get someone in here who has a fresh look at the game they realize that skygazer is not scummy.

I said it first :^)

Is that true?

I guess I'm committed to defending ckd now. But that also means I need to provide an alternative. I don't think I can get Andante wagon to work with 4 days left.

...Does anyone townread Skygazer?

@Bub

I townread Skygazer

Yesz

Man this feels scummy to me. You're trying to have it both ways -- starting some initial suspicion on Sky, voting for him late in the day:

VOTE: Sky

E-2

This is flipping town though

But then trying to act like you read them as town the whole way.

I think GIF slid under my scumdar for most of the day...but this is really pinging it now.

This sequence looks very damning. GIF was also sorta kinda on the Andante wagon D1 but jumped off when shit got serious and Skygazer started to look like a viable alternative.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I really don't like this goading of the vigilante. I don't know if it's all that AI....but it's bad firm in a way I can't articulate.

[Bub Bidderskins]

EBWOP: bad FORM

[Bub Bidderskins]

Will need to take some time to catch up/re-assess. The Andante flip has thrown me for a loop and so I think I need to re-evaluate all my reads. My gut is that this implicates CKD based on his earlier deflections to Andante.

[Bub Bidderskins]

also noting that Venmar and Bub, are testing the waters for interest in my wagon. you hoping someone else starts it, so you can limp on?

I dunno dude, you sound you're testing the waters for interest in a wagon on me. Hoping someone else starts it, so you can limp on?

I was geared to come up firing on a Hu wagon today based on how they defended Andante but the town flip is forcing me to re-assess.

[Bub Bidderskins]

VOTE: CuriousKarmaDog

Reading back on the end of D2 and their ISO, I think it's pretty clear that they're scum. Remember, one of CKD's early thin pushes was on Andante D1. They were parked on that wagon for quite some time...but it seems like every time it got serious they backed off and started attacking the wagon. Like this post towards the end of D1:

not official

Andante (7): Kowahbunga, Venmar, Bub Bidderskins, Flavor Leaf, Skygazer, Gimli, NJAC
Skygazer (5): Save The Dragons, NJAC, Greeting, Hu Tao, KT

also the Andante wagon just looks scummier.

fine..

Vote Skygazer

my vote on Bub isnt helping.

Premptively attacking the lead wagon on someone who's town...and someone they pushed earlier in the day. I should note that at this point it did seem like the momentum was towards Andante getting the ax. Now knowing that Andante was town, this reads like scum trying to dodge getting on the record for pushing a townie while lining up mislims on subsequent days. Remember how hard the Andante wagon was to get going both on D1 and D2? It seems to me like the scum thought townies would push the Andante wagon home and weren't coordinating to help the mis-lim all that much...at least at this point.

Speaking of having a hard time getting the Andante wagon going, we have these posts at the end of D2:

I can't articulate it yet, but I don't like Curious last like 5-10 posts.

It almost feels like they want to come across as disagreeing about Andante, but only so that they can be seen changing their mind.

Ill make it clearer for you. I dont like the Andante wagon. I dont understanding why (now) multiple people say the Andante flop will help them "reassess the game" or "open up the game"

so give a flop what does say about me? if they are scum, am I protecting a buddy? if they are town, am I trying to get town cred?

or maybe...just maybe..

I dont like the wagon and I feel like there is a whole game of scummy people here that would MORE telling if they flipped. TO INCLUDE ME! There has been MULTIPLE people say they thought I was scummy for this reason or that, but are leaning on this wagon.

so how do you "feel" about my posts now. any confusion?

I can literally go on and on about the different reasons Andante is objectively scum here, and I have, but I haven't done it in the past couple days, because I've been more focused on Hu Tao.

I don't know what to tell ya, CKD. Andante's just scum here, and integrated with the most, so their flip opens up the game more than anyone without a doubt here.

Really at this point, if I joined the Andante wagon after stomping my feet down all day and saying how much I would rather want other people to die....their flip will hurt me either way.

I know ....I know...that isnt a reason to not join a wagon, but I just dont feel like they are scum. Maybe I am wrong. How about this, if you need a hammer....i will do it at the appropriate time and take whatever fucking grief will come.

that being said, what about that Hu wagon?

lol,

okay,

VOTE: Andante

may God have mercy on your soul.

Just so much performative handwringing around the Andante wagon. "I don't like the wagon," "I guess I'll hammer if you need a hammer." This absolutely reads like someone who knew that Andante was flipping town.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Regarding sky, Jester is considered a non-normal role, correct? Because if I thought there was a decent chance of a jester in this game I would expect them to be it.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Omg I got around to reading the last 10 pages and it's just...

When I skimmed it before my last post the dumb reaction test didn't register because it was buried and only happened over the course of like 10 posts, but my god.

I won't bother to protect sky further because it's kinda her guilt.

I am not voting here either. That's it.

Same. I now kind of regret defending her so much earlier. I still feel like she's a VI, and so I read the earlier cheap pushes on her as scummy, but I'm not going to waste my time anymore.

[Bub Bidderskins]

@

Everyone

:

Can you please order (again if you already did) these six players from the scummiest to the least scummy?

{Enchant, Venmar, GIF, Malcolm, Sheep, Sky}

scum - GIF, Malcom, Sheep, Enchant, Sky(?), Venmar - town

[Bub Bidderskins]

Man you're just immediate super defensiveness towards any kind of pressure is so goddamn scummy.

couple questions Bub...and think hard here.

When you posted "your case" on me today, why did you not read the all of the thread?

I skimmed through the early stuff today, but your posting at the end of D2 was soooo scummy given the flip that it over-ruled anything.

Why were you attacking me Day 1?

I made my case in 123 and your subsequent over-reaction to any sort of pressure made you look even more scummy. Your soft-claim to try and get pressure off you D1 was mega scummy and I don't understand why that caused the pressure to slip off, but I guess I'm just chalking that up to a meta shift. Back in my day that kind of soft-claim would have resulted in an instant elimination.

Did you ever feel that Andante was scummy Day 1? If so why? If not why?

I was all aboard the Andante wagon at the end of D1. I felt like her eratic posting and lack of conviction read as scummy, but I was reading the dynamic between you and her as town/scum because of your half-assed deflections towards her. So earlier in the day when I had a scumread on you that implied in my mind that Andante was town. Given the Andante town flip, that seriously implicates you.

When I posted the below BEFORE your vote on Day 2, what were your thoughts on it?

Here is the problem with me swallowing Adante as scum. FL tell me why I am wrong.

at..

not official

Andante (7): Kowahbunga, Venmar, Bub Bidderskins, Flavor Leaf, Skygazer, Gimli, NJAC
Skygazer (5): Save The Dragons, NJAC, Greeting, Hu Tao, KT

also the Andante wagon just looks scummier.

fine..

Vote Skygazer

my vote on Bub isnt helping.

My vote put it at 7v6

in 1967, Andante voted Eira....she could have voted Sky, putting it at 7v7

would scum Andante in your meta do that? Also given the KT wagon (just reviewed again), hard for me to see ScumAndante bussing a partner in that way.

When I posted this yesterday, why did you comment it on it then?

I can literally go on and on about the different reasons Andante is objectively scum here, and I have, but I haven't done it in the past couple days, because I've been more focused on Hu Tao.

I don't know what to tell ya, CKD. Andante's just scum here, and integrated with the most, so their flip opens up the game more than anyone without a doubt here.

Really at this point, if I joined the Andante wagon after stomping my feet down all day and saying how much I would rather want other people to die....their flip will hurt me either way.

I know ....I know...that isnt a reason to not join a wagon, but I just dont feel like they are scum. Maybe I am wrong. How about this, if you need a hammer....i will do it at the appropriate time and take whatever fucking grief will come.

that being said, what about that Hu wagon?

I don't understand why you're bringing up those posts. Given the Andante flip, those posts look SUPER scummy. It was those posts that caused me to inta vote you after catching up. You're just immediate reactionary defensiveness upon being pushed is so fucking scummy.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Man you're just immediate super defensiveness towards any kind of pressure is so goddamn scummy.

scum love to lean on "being defensive is scummy" as part of a case, because they usually dont have anything. Someone says something they cant answer..."oh you are super defensive". lame just lame.

1.) explain the theory of why a scum would be more defensive than a townie. It is easy to just say it, but explain it.
2.) what is your definition of "defensive". I saw someone say something that is either not true or hypocritical I call it out.

See, it's asking these random, toothless and distracting questions is exactly the sort of thing that makes me read you as scum. They accomplish, far, far less than they appear to. Everything you've asked I can answer, but my answers are honestly irrelevant.

Being overly defensive is super scummy because the scum's motivation is much more strongly tied to their ability to survive. Townie motivation is to scumhunt and not be overly bothered by people on their wagon. The knee-jerk reaction to immediately attack and discredit ones attacker even if they aren't scummy is patently scum-motivated behavior. That's what you're doing -- the only reason you've ever thought of me as scummy at all is the fact that I've caught you. Your actions aren't defensible from a town POV so you're attacking your attacker.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I honestly don't understand why there weren't seven votes on CKD the second D3 started just based on how they played the Andante wqagon.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Kowah's case on Andante is pretty compelling, but I think it boils down to Andante just being all over the place. That's a big reason why the wagon her got going -- she had a finger in absolutely every pie and demonstrated basically no conviction throughout the day. So, in isolation, scummy.

But I can't square that with Andante being so early on the Kitty wagon. There's a chance that wagon doesn't get off the ground without Andante jumping on it, but maybe Andante was acting out of pure self-preservation and, like FL pointed out, were kind of hoisted by her own petard for throwing suspicion everywhere willy-nill.

I still think we're more likely to find scum bussing at the tail end of that wagon (CKD, Hu...I'm also in this group but I know I'm town) or off the wagon entirely (GIF, Eira's slot, Malcom, Enchant).

This feels interesting because I feel like Bub basically makes a solid case for why Andante was town, but it doesn't really chime with them eventually ending up on the wagon anyway...Bub will make these big detailed posts but on both days they've ended up happily just settling for the final wagon once it gets going anyway.

It's also worth noting, CKD, that Bub's eventual reading of Andante as being scummier also largely centred around how defensive they were being in their approach. Kinda similar to their attitude to you.

You should have read my very next post. My sense was that Andante getting on early was town, but after re-reading her jumping off and back on the wagon again convinced me that it was behavior a scum could make.

[Bub Bidderskins]

CKD wrung their hands so much doing all this performative bs about how they really didn't want to vote for her, but if things came to it he would, etc. etc. It's really hard to interpret how that could come from a townie -- they was desperately trying to cover their ass after what they knew was going to be a town flip.

That combined with consistent scummy play throughout the game that has bizarrely gone over-looked. Their soft-PR claim was literally the single scummiest possible reaction to getting wagoned and everyone just let it go for some reason? Also, at no point in this game have they seriously pushed anybody who wasn't attacking him. All of their "scumhunting" is performative and basically only in the service of relieving pressure on himself. Like they just started dumping wallpost after wallpost casing me which only came about after I came out firing against them today. If they were actually trying to catch scum you'd expect something like that more regularly on other suspects. I guarantee you CKD wouldn't be pushing me at all if I wasn't pushing them.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I don't think pushing the person pushing you is intrinsically scummy if you think they're scum, but it seems like CKD only does "scumhunting" when it has the benefit of getting someone off their back. That's what being "defensive" in a scummy way looks like -- there's no legitimate scumhunting, only defense.

[Bub Bidderskins]

CKD wrung their hands so much doing all this performative bs about how they really didn't want to vote for her, but if things came to it he would, etc. etc. It's really hard to interpret how that could come from a townie -- they was desperately trying to cover their ass after what they knew was going to be a town flip.

have you ever heard of a compromise vote

It's not that it was a compromise vote. It was that CKD just repeadetly kept saying that they were Very Unhappy about the Andante wagon. It's not like they made serious attempts to push another wagon either -- they just slipped onto it at the end and spent a lot of the late day talking about how scummy the wagon was. The simpliest explanation for their pattern of behavior is that they're scum who knew Andante was going to flip town and wanted to line up mislims on the Andante wagon without themselves looking scummy for jumping on it.

[Bub Bidderskins]

@Malcom

I think it's possible that I'm tunnelling the point of pushing myself to confirmation bias, but I still feel like CKD's behavior is consistently scummy in ways that go beyond what you've mentioned.

I'm not presuming that townies are always "calm-headed and rational," if anything CKD has been more or less calm-headed and has tried to exhude a presence of rationality. It's about the motivation behind their actions. I don't read any of their pushes as that significant -- their "pushes" are actually fairly toothless...except on people directly pushing them. They never seriously pushed people but slipped on to wagons when it was convenient.

Again, it's possible I'm just too deep in the tank at this point, but I just don't see how any of CKD's behavior is anything other than super scummy. IMHO every reaction they've had to any kind of pressure has only been scummier and scummier. Literally everyone else in the game is like half as likely to be scum as CKD IMHO.

[Bub Bidderskins]

This is just patently untrue given CKD was the leading wagon early in D1 until they claimed. Like...the slot was perceived as being so scummy that they had to claim to avoid being limmed.

This is a mis-representation of the game state. I believe the CKD wagon was the first serious wagon of the entire game, but I don't think it got all that close to an elimination, like maybe E-4? I read the claim as panicked and premature.

[Bub Bidderskins]

@Malcom

I think it's possible that I'm tunnelling the point of pushing myself to confirmation bias, but I still feel like CKD's behavior is consistently scummy in ways that go beyond what you've mentioned.

I'm not presuming that townies are always "calm-headed and rational," if anything CKD has been more or less calm-headed and has tried to exhude a presence of rationality.

It's about the motivation behind their actions. I don't read any of their pushes as that significant -- their "pushes" are actually fairly toothless...except on people directly pushing them. They never seriously pushed people but slipped on to wagons when it was convenient.

Again, it's possible I'm just too deep in the tank at this point, but I just don't see how any of CKD's behavior is anything other than super scummy.

IMHO every reaction they've had to any kind of pressure has only been scummier and scummier.

Literally everyone else in the game is like half as likely to be scum as CKD IMHO.

there is no way you believe the bolded. there is just no way.

I mean, it just seems so obvious that I'm not sure how anybody couldn't. Any review of your iso would reveal to be obviously true.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Bub and ckd

What are your thoughts on other slots in the game

Big reads that are coming to mind:

Towny

Gimli - wasn't keen on how the Cephir slot exited the game, but Gimli has been advancing the games in productive ways. Was early on the Kitty wagon.

NJAC - ever since they actually got into the game they've been intentional and pro-actively scumhunting. Were also early on the Kitty wagon in a way that really didn't seem like a bus.

Venmar - they weren't on the Kitty wagon but it seems to me that they were not online when that flash wagon happened. Other than that they've contributed in ways that feel townie to me. I think some people read their analysis as more passive and therefore scummy but I think it's just a tone/playstyle thing and not AI.

Skygazer - Just the flagrant lurking early in the game combined with the sketchy dynamics of the wagon that formed on them make me think they're town. The recent burst of activity is kind of interesting considering how different a posting pattern it is from earlier...but it still reads as town-motivated.

Scummy

GIF - Really didn't like the way they were manupulating the record on skygazer. They weren't on the Kitty wagon at all and slid into the middle of the Andante wagon.

Sheep - Wasn't too hot on the ballpoint slot and eira literally posted nothing. Sheep came in strong, but since then all they've done is complain about the game being hard. I could see that as townie behavior, but my patience with this slot is growing thin.


Those are the strong reads I have at the moment.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Is that slot cursed?

[Bub Bidderskins]

Unfortunately I'm going to be V/LA through Monday the 1st. I will still try to jump on and keep in the game (as long as I'm alive).

I'm just frustrated by everyone's bizarre unwilliningness to wagon Kitty after a string of just blatantly scummy behavior. I dunno, maybe I'm so deep in the tunnel here with confirmation bias or the game has passed me by, but just seems like Kitty is 2x or 3x more likely to be scum than basically every other reasonable suspect combined. The fake scumhunting, weirdness on the Andante wagon, likely bus location on the kitty wagon, unbelievably scummy soft PR claim after only a moderate amount of pressure. Basically every time they've inserted themselves into the game it's been for super scummy reasons. Maybe they have scumbuds defending them, but that even seems weird when you consider just how blatantly scummy their behavior is. CKD's iso is indefensible from a town perspective. Just don't get it.

[Bub Bidderskins]

i could be wrong about bub

but it has felt like wrangling votes even from people who are actively scumreading bub has been hard

and i'm not sure what to make of that

Remember that it was hard to wrangle votes against Andante and they were town.

I think this group of players is just hard to wrangle.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Do you think kitty was bussing when kitty jumped on ckd d1

Do you think ckd dumbtelling was fake

That vote was so early in the game that it could be anything tbh. It was the sort of spot you jump onto as scum if you want to push a wagon forward...or also if you think your scumbud's going to get caught at some point and you want to claim credit for it. It might make me question my read on CKD's alignment if literally every post CKD has made individually didn't reak of scummieness.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Bub

If ckd was off the table who would you do

GIF

[Bub Bidderskins]

@bub if u have the time can u re-evaluate sky or star or whichever it is as a potential option for today? as far as ive seen you've just ruled it out because of the way pressure formed on them, but imo thats just not strong enough + their actual posting has been consistently firmly wolfy

Sky is town

[Bub Bidderskins]

VT.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I'm traveling so limited ability to make really in depth posts.

I don't like the fact that I'm a lazy lim. Def look for scum pushing my wagon, CKD is obv scum, and Sky is obvtown.

[Bub Bidderskins]

i don't think i've been on a weirder wagon than this one

Cause it's a shitty wagon.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I've been V/LA this weekend. I think I should have set my status ><. Gonna try to catch up while sitting at the airport.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Oh I'm dead I think. Lol.

[Bub Bidderskins]

CKD is obv scum, star is town. Enchant also likely scummy. Go get em.