Mini 708 - Cheat Mafia (GAME OVER)

[Axelrod]

Hi there! I'm replacing somebody! I don't actually know who, but I assume it's one of those guys who were going to be replaced.

What's happening!

[Axelrod]

I've just skimmed. First impression is that the "two miller" thing is some bad juju. I'm pretty sure I've never seen that before and I think it highly likely at least one of them is full of it. I'd lean towards the Hammer because of the way he claimed it (with a ?) in his first post and then his most recent where he backed off saying he thinks there could be 2 millers.

I don't have any other thoughts right now.

[Axelrod]

Im inclined to think its rather a scum gambit for claiming miller, then failing because there is an actual miller.

vote natirasha

This is entirely possible. I haven't made up my mind.

Der Hammer is also lurking like a fiend, however, in addition to his initial (?) about being a Miller, and his recent declaration that he thinks there could be two Millers. He's literally said

nothing

else.

Of course, Nat. just said the same thing abo9ut two Millers. So, question to both of you: what is it about this set-up that leads you to the conclusion that there could be multiple millers?

I think out of everyone I am vibing with sirdanilot's

style

more than anyone else's so far. Which is not to say I agree with his current vote. But I think he's sounding townie, and he's working awfully hard for a scum.

[Axelrod]

Unvote

I have no real reason to be voting Malthius.

I'd like to take a straw poll, however, on the following question:

What are your opinions on having everyone state the

number

of questions that they were provided answers to at the beginning of the game.

I'm not asking anyone to reveal how many answers they know yet. And I'm not asking which answers anyone knows. I'm not asking what the answers are. I'm just asking your opinion on having everyone simply state the number of total answers they started with. Yes, I have reasons for asking this.

[Axelrod]

My fault. I thought you did. I

know

Der Hammer did that though.

Find the quote if you

know

I did, because I think you will realise your mistaken.

I am the teachers pet, a nerd who likes playing with the orchestra.

I'm not sure if this means anything, but my role name is Nerd, and I find it weird that you would have the word nerd in your role description.

unvote

,

vote: DerHammer

I find it weird as well. More than weird even.

Vote: DerHammer

Incidentally, do you have an opinion on what I said?

Are there differences between the miller claims?

Natirisha claimed to be the "Druggie" in his first post. The use of drugs supposedly makes him a miller, although he's not a "bad kid."

DerHammer also claimed to be a miller in his first post, he's the "Teacher's Pet." He didn't say why this would make him a miller. His follow-up explanation is above, and has been partially countered by Electra.

[Axelrod]

You just...misread?

I don't think I'll be changing my vote any time soon either.

If people don't want to say how many answers they started with, this is okay. But you should at least be saying that you don't think it's a good idea to say. I am trying to solicit some more firm opinions here.

[Axelrod]

...damn.

Why are you worrying about not hammering Der Hammer?

I'm not entirely sure I want to go to night yet.

This comes across as somewhat insincere, considering you apparently had no problems at all putting him at L-1.

And you also didn't say anything else, like, "hay guys, this is L-1, but I'm not really sure I want to go to Night yet...."

[Axelrod]

I wasn't online when DG said:

Just making sure, the next vote for Der Hammer is a L-1, right?

It seems like Der Hammer is scum that has given up on the game.

Did the votecount say that there were 4 votes on DH at the time of this post?

The vote-count was erroneous. It said (and still says) there were 5 votes on DH with 7 to lynch, when there were apparently 6 votes on him (because Electra's vote had been missed).

[Axelrod]

Who else claimed miller?

Natirasha.

But Der Hammer also said (late) that he misread his PM and he wasn't actually a miller. So the "two miller" issue may, in fact, be a non-issue. This doesn't mean there aren't other reasons to vote Natirasha. Beginning of day review is in order.

[Axelrod]

I'm apologizing for slacking on this game, I've been very distracted recently. Of course, three other people have yet to post at all.

What armlx just did is somewhat suspect, both beause asking an obvious question that it takes 2 seconds to look up is suspect, and delaying a vote until someone else agrees with you is suspect.

I'm not prepared to vote for anyone yet.

[Axelrod]

animorpherv1: while I am thinking about it. Your 1st post claim included this statement:

I also think I have most answers wrong.

What did you mean by that, exactly?

[Axelrod]

Right now, I'm Class Clown, no powers, nothing.

that's why I think I got more negative than posivtive points.

anyways, if noone can see the difference, Clown and Jester aren't really that different, so that is what I am thinking.

This does not answer my question. At least, not so as I understand what you are saying.

[Axelrod]

@Axelrod:

You get powers when you answer more questions correctly than incorrectly. I didn't get any, so I'm thinking I got negative.

This still does not make any sense. You said this in your very first post. This was before anyone had a chance to get any powers. Your reason for saying it

couldn't

have been because you didn't gain any powers.

Are you saying that what you

meant

was that you thought this because you didn't

start

the game with any powers?

You are on the brink here, so it's time for confession: exactly how many answers did you start the game with?

[Axelrod]

I've got a real bad case of the Christmas bussies right now. Which means I'm not keeping up with any of my games. But I've found that if I make a promise to post something meaningful tomorrow I usually feel obligated to do it, so that's what I'm doing right now.

[Axelrod]

Did you know that you can't make two posts in a row that have the exact same text? (I was coming on to apologize for my poor participation and was going to post the same thing here as what I just posted in my other game.)

Anyway, maybe tomorrow. Sorry guys.

[Axelrod]

I'm here, but I'm not paying attention at the moment.

I think that looking at Nat. is a good place to start the day.

[Axelrod]

@Jahudo: please tell me how you "know" that the answers Electra used "didn't work." I mean, besides the fact that you may not have gained any abilities last Night. Anything else?

What interests me the most at the moment is trying to figure out the discrepancy between two answers that has been reported. DGB traded for an answer and got one, and then cheated off someone and saw another, yes? But the person DBG traded with, Xtoxm, is now dead and conveniently can't tell us where he got

his

answer from.

I don't believe this has been asked yet: @Master Ruck (formerly Electra): did you start with the answer to question #7 in your PM or did Electra trade for it?

[Axelrod]

The Mod. has never sent me a PM telling me if my answers were correct. In fact, when I asked him, the Mod. specifically said that he

wouldn't

be telling me if my answers were correct or not.

So, Jahudo, can you explain this?

[Axelrod]

I am trying to work out the lie, but I think I am missing something.

Malthius cheats off of DGB and sees answer to #7 first day.

Malthius trades an answer with Nat. Nat. gives Malthius the answer to #7.

Nat. says he traded the answer he got from Malthius to DGB.

So, if Nat. were claiming that he traded #7 to DGB then he would be lying - because DGB already had the answer to #7? Is that what is being talked about.

That doesn't make any sense, though, because DGB knows what answer(s) she started with and what answer(s) she traded for. Nat. couldn't lie about that and actually get away with it.

Or is it that Malthius is saying that he didn't see the answer he gave Nat. on DGB's test when he "cheated" off DGB - and therefore Nat. would be lying about giving DGB Malthius's answer. Again - as DGB is still living, there's no way Nat. can lie about trades with DGB and get away with it.

Sorry, maybe someone can explain what I'm missing.

@Jahudo: are you now saying that the Mod. did NOT give you a list of what the "correct" answers were? You just made a mistake about that?

[Axelrod]

Okay, I'll help you out here.

I traded an answer to Nat first day. When Night came I cheated off of DGB and found not only a few answers (as well as #7) but my own as well (I'm not revealing it).

Still not seeing it.

/obviously dense

[Axelrod]

Okay, I'll help you out here.

I traded an answer to Nat first day. When Night came I cheated off of DGB and found not only a few answers (as well as #7) but my own as well (I'm not revealing it).

Still not seeing it.

/obviously dense

/facepalm I can't explain it you any simpler then that. Could someone else put it in clearer words?

Nat. already claimed he traded your answer to DGB, didn't he? So why is finding your answer on DGB's test suspicious? I think that's what I'm missing.

[Axelrod]

What I want to know is:

How many answers did you start with? (I'm don't want to know which answers or what the actual answers are yet, just how many you have).

Who do you know about Nat. trading answers with? (you may or may not have this information)

How many answers do you currently have? (same)

@Malthius: so am I to understand that what you are saying is that Nat. gave you an answer to question #7, but you have determined that the answer was a lie?

[Axelrod]

Axelrod - My top pick for scum, I will re-read him soon.

Do tell. Let me know how that works out for you. I'm quite interested.

[Axelrod]

I'm still here.

I was leaning towards voting Nat. and Unoficial Ruler hasn't done anything yet to make me feel like changing that opinion.

The early Miller claim is a slight plus, just because it's a gambitty thing to do as scum right out of the block, but Nat. kind of went downhill from there. I am trying to figure out who my #2 is, but, as is becomming more and more the case, my time is limited. Sorry.

[Axelrod]

Just dropping in to say that I'm going to be doing the Magic pre-release most all day tomorrow and possibly on Sunday as well, but I will check in before the deadline and I will hammer UROE before I will let it go to a No Lynch.

[Axelrod]

Vote: UnofficialRulerofEveryone

If this is wrong, we may lose this game tonight unless we get lucky and/or someone picks up a good ability to use. Anyone who wants to trade an answer during the twilight, please PM me and we'll talk.

[Axelrod]

Vote: DrippingGoofBall

I got a cop scan last night and he showed up as a bad kid. Lynch the Scum!

I am inclined to believe this result.

Vote: Dripping Goofball

That said, let's not speed lynch. Everyone needs to check in first, and I would like to hear what DGB has to say for herself.

[Axelrod]

Unvote

No, no, no. We do not speed lynch here. I think DGB is probably the correct play, but not before she has a chance to respond.

Now, if she drops off the planet and doesn't say something soon, then we can reconsider that.

[Axelrod]

Well, at least DGB is making it easy for me.

Vote: DGB

I will just point out, to those who might be listening to her, that

if

she were telling the truth, then the scum team would be Master Ruck and myself (me because of her "result" and him because of lying about her), and we would have just put everything on the line to get DGB lynched today, which might possibly win the game, I suppose - except if there is a vig. in the town, or a Doc, or a RBer, or anything to prevent a successful kill tonight. Which would be a rather risky gambit to me. Also, it would have been just extremely fortunate for us that Master Ruck happened to claim his "result" first, when we would have had no idea that DGB apparently had an "inspection" and was about to accuse me.

Incidentally, this also means that there's also definitely 1 more scum, because DGB wouldn't bother with a gambit like this if she was the last one left. Last scum I'm thinking will be out of Jahudo/Ghostwriter.

[Axelrod]

Okay, so, the two people not voting DGB need to say something more. Vote her, or say why you're not voting her and ask questions/vote someone else.

I realize this is easier for me than you under the circumstances, but it's dragging now.

[Axelrod]

AXELROD: why did you not start suspecting Nat when DH flipped town? You said that one of the miller claims is scum. if one flips town isn't it a logical conclusion the other one is scum?

I said that I did not belive the town would have two Millers. That's logic and common sense. So initially I was just trying to decide which of the "Miller" claims was more likely.

In a void, when a person comes out early on Day 1, claiming Miller unpressured, I am more likely to believe that person. This because, as scum, it would be a gambit and a risk they would be taking very, very early on. They risk getting lynched right there. They risk getting lynched down the road because they are "unconfirmable." I tend to think that the scum don't ususally take unnecessary risks, especially right out the gate on Day 1. Does that mean it doesn't happen? Obviously not. But most of the time I've seen it, the person who claimed Miller actually was town. It doesn't mean I give them a free pass for the rest of the game, but that's my experience.

Two Miller claimers changed things, however, because that was something I could not believe. I thought DH was fishier. And

then

he said he wasn't actually a Miller at all. He made a "mistake."

At that point it wasn't an either/or situation anymore, which ought to be obvious. There was no reason to conclude that if DH was town Nat. was therefore scum, because DH had made a

mistake

.

I would have thought that was pretty obvious.

As for the rest, I plead guilty to slacking on this game (and, incidentally, every game I was playing across multiple sites.) My "excuse" is that I've been busy and distracted, but I take responsibility for that, so if you want to suspect me for it, I can't say anything to dispute it. It is what it is.

I felt that Nat. was scummy for a long time, but couldn't ever get the time/energy to make a long case out.

Right now, I think with a DGB lynch there's a good chance the game can be locked up. I can confirm everything MR just said, in terms of the answers. If anyone has different answers, they should say so.

If everyone now changes their tests to use the same answers, we can assume that all remaining townies will get useful powers. The last scum will get "something" as well, but hopefully, it is still going to favor the town more.

Right now, I am looking at GW or Jahudo as the last scum. I've felt okay about SirD for most of the game, despite this last post, and I'm 99.9 Master Ruck is town.

[Axelrod]

GW and Axel: Which answers are guesses?

Most of my answers were got through trades.

Is there an answer that you have different? If so, I can tell you where I got mine if you will reveal where you got yours.

[Axelrod]

11=C (GhostWriter)
12=B (Axelrod)

These two mostly.

I got my answer to #12 from Xtoxm. This was further "confirmed" by a trade with Nat. - for whatever that's worth.

It has also come to my attention that Xtoxm may have lied about some of his answers, despite being town. That's neither here nor there at this point.

Are you saying you have a different answer? If so, can you say where you got it from?

[Axelrod]

So, we have SirD claiming a "re-direct" ability, redirecting GW to me. And we have Master Ruck claiming to have attempted a "jailer" ability but having been redirected to another, unknown. This may even be semi-verified by SirD claiming that someone attempted to RB him.

I have believed Master Ruck was town for a long time. I have practically staked the game on it in point of fact. I want to believe him. I am definitely bothered by SirD's claim that his "re-direct" ability was supposedly "faster" than the role-blocking ability. That does not make game sense. GW needs to report on his Night activites asap.

My role name is the "Chatterbox." My night action was to Cop scan Jahudo. Master Ruck can at least confirm that this was the plan I told him I was going to do (and if he doesn't confirm it, then he is the last scum - not that anyone else would have a basis for knowing this).

There is a puzzle to be worked out here. I suspect it can be done, once we have all the pieces on the table. No one ought to be voting anyone yet.

[Axelrod]

SirD: you claim you targeted GW with a re-direct, re-directing him to target me. You claim this re-direct was successful, despite an attempted RB. Then GW says this:

I heard Sirdan and Jahudo together

And your conclusion is that I am scum? How does this track with what you supposedly know? GW is completely contradicting you.

GW: I'm going to echo what Master Ruck asked. Are you claiming you got NO additional abilities last Night, and that you have just used the same one multiple Nights? Did you update your test at all? How certain are you that you targeted who you attempted to target?

Master Ruck: what kind of "confirmation" did you get regarding your attempted use of ability? When you were told you were "re-directed" were you told anything else?

[Axelrod]

I agree that GW can't have killed Jahudo - if you did, in fact, "re-direct" him to me. His own Night Action claim, however, suggests this is not the case.

So, I am left with either (1) GW is telling the truth about hearing you and Jahudo, you are lying about the whole "re-directing" thing and you are scum. Or (2) you are telling the truth about re-directing, or at least attempting to re-direct, but, despite what you may have been told, it failed somehow, in which case GW could still potentially be the scum.

The one thing you don't get out of this is

me

being scum - so would you care to explain to me again how you are arriving at that conclusion.

[Axelrod]

I will freely admit that my dilemma right now is that GW has been way scummier than SirD for the entire game, but the claimed Night actions point more strongly at SirD.

[Axelrod]

This is what it looks like. There's this 3-way thing going on and I am the guy being left out.

MR says he "jailed" someone, but was re-directed and doesn't know who.

SirD has claimed an attempted RB, which may have been the re-directed "jailer" ability, but also claims his own re-direct ability which was supposedly not blocked because it was "faster" than the Role-block. SirD claims to have re-directed GW.

GW does not comfirm being re-directed, but makes it sound like "something" happened to him last Night. But in terms of ability, he claims to have targeted who he was intending to target last Night, which was SirD. And he also claims to have heard SirD with Jahudo.

It doesn't add up, and it doesn't add up multiple ways.

If you believe MR, then he was re-directed, and the only person who could have re-directed him was the scum. The scum must also have killed Jahudo, yes? Do we think a single scum could re-direct MR and kill Jahudo in the same Night?

Even if the scum could re-direct MR

and

kill Jahudo, it would not explain why SirD's attempted re-direct apparently had no effect on GW. It would not explain why GW heard SirD and Jahudo together. MR is suggesting that GW's ability just did what it did of it's own accord? SirD is sticking to his belief that GW could not have killed because he was told his ability was "successful" despite all evidence to the contrary.

GW claims he updated his test, yet received no new abilities. May I ask what your updated answers were, considering that everyone else who updated received something?

I kind of want to believe it's GW, but that would make SirD town, and it seems like for it to be GW he would have needed to have some kind of immunity to SirD. He might conceivably have gotten something like this as scum (you are now immuse to townie powers) but it would be a bit bastardy of the Mod. to then tell SirD that his ability was "successful." But perhaps not more bastardy than when a Mod. tells a Cop that a player is "town" who is actually the scum GF.

It could be a language thing. When I Mod. I will "confirm" my players actions to them, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they worked as advertised.

I have to go to bed now. I'll see if I have any brilliant insights tomorrow.

[Axelrod]

I'm doing a GW review to see if there's anything clear cut. And the more I look, the more I don't like.

First post of substance is this responce to Xtoxm where Xto is suspicious of GW because he PM'd him about a trade and GW did not respond in any way. My instinct says that it is

more likely

that a scum would decline to converse via PM than a town, if only because the scum would be more concerned about giving himself away. I also dislike the tone of the response. I bit too sarcastic and over the top. These are not a big points.

More of the same in this post.

Then there's his interaction with Nat. Nat. claims Miller right out of the gate, and in post #104, GW at least appears to express suspicion. Thinks Nat's explanation of why Miller's make sense in this game sounds like a stretch.

This is followed, however, by a Vote for Der Hammer (as opposed to Nat.) Seems to say here that the flavor of Der Hammer's miller claim makes no sense (which, in fairness, was true, especially considering that Der Hammer was not a miller).

Der Hammer corrects himself in the very next post, saying he misread and was not a miller, but GW has nothing further to say about him before he is lynched.

Xtom gets killed that Night.

The next day, GW more or less follows the crowd in an attack on animorpherv. It starts with criticism of his mentioning Jester. Which actually doesn't address the actual case SirD was making, it was more of a side issue/distraction.

GW doesn't vote animorpherv for that, however. He doesn't vote until #268 which is the hammer vote. Here, he's not making an argument against animorpherv, he just says "you are the best lynch" and boom. That kind of lazy vote, without reasons being given is much more scummy than usual.

It's also significant that this comes right after animorpherv has started to attack Nat. Way to cut off any further discussion.

Day 3 GW does a lot of defendaing of Nat. In a seeming reversal of what he said on Day 1, he says he believes Nat's miller claim ("for the most part"), and he does not vote for Nat.

The "for the most part" is a phrase he repeats. It's almost like he's using it to be able to back track in the event it becomes necessary. Also, up to this point, he hasn't given a "stance" on the miller claim except to say he thought Nat. was stretching to justify it's existance on Day 1.

GW votes for Jahudo, and doesn't say anything about anyone else on Day 3.

Day 4 Master Ruck comes right out of the gate fingering DGB as scum. She get's 2 quick votes (Master Ruck and me), but I explicitly say that there should not be a quick lynch before everyone's had a chance to speak. GW, in his first post of the day pretty much
ignores this request, putting down the third vote (with 4 to lynch) in speedy fashion. I really don't like the way he voted either, saying

First and foremost: Vote: DrippingGoofball. Now then, on to other things.

When people say things like "Vote XXX, and now on to other things...." , or "in other news," I find an extraordinarily large amount of times, they are scum.

He sticks on DGB the rest of the day and doesn't say anything about anyone else.

Then, there's the part about him making up test answers.

GW was giving people wrong answers this game. And more than simply guessing at questions he didn't know the answer to, he was

trading

them. As though they were the

right

answers. Seriously? I didn't do a trade with him personally, but that just blows my mind that a townie would do such a thing. It's basically sabatoging other people's tests - in an extremely dishonest fashion.

How can you get involved in a trade where player A says, I've got answers for X, Y and Z, and you say "hey, I've got answers for P, D, and Q" when your answers were

completely made up?

GW attempts to explain this away Here. He claims he had a "theory" about how the answers worked, and made guesses based on this theory.

And while I suppose it's possible one could come up with such a theory - though it would involve not reading the rules or paying attention at all to what the Mod. said - trading your guessed answers as though they were correct is simply terrible. Too terrible to have been done by a town I'm becomming more and more convinced.

This is funny, because I just realized that DGB used the "in other news" line when she voted for

me

HERE.

Today, GW has come out with a very vague claim of some kind of "listening" ability, which he supposedly used to nail DGB the previous day (though, of course, no hint of this was given at all.) He says the device is "glitchy" (which seems very convenient for explaining inconsistent results). He also claims not to have gained any additional powers despite updating his test, and he appears to be the only one who didn't gain anything.

It occurs that, as scum, he vary well may have gained something last Night, but it's something he can't claim - because, gee, it's a scum ability. Like some kind of immunity to Night actions?

What if - and this is speculation now - what if, he got an ability which itself redirects. Something like - anyone who tries to target him gets redirected off of him to the target of his choice. And this is done without the person who targets him knowing it. What if SirD's "redirect" ability, which was slated to hit GW, did not, in fact, hit GW, but was "re-directed" onto Master Ruck? Master Ruck was, in fact, redirected. Then Master Ruck was himself redirected back onto SirD, and it seems very easily like we could be ending up exactly where we are right now.

He's also been, by far the lurkiest player, been prodded multiple times and absent for long stretches. I don't see where he's done anything remotely townie all game.

I want GW to list all his test answers as he submitted them last Night. I'd also like to hear what his answers were the day before he "updated." I don't think he didn't gain anything. I don't believe this "listening device" claim. I think he's the last scum.

[Axelrod]

@GW: you still haven't posted your test answers. For last Night and the Night before.

@Master Ruck: I also thought about No lynch. I go back and forth. I don't see where it really hurts, but I'm not sure it really helps either.

Maybe that means we should do it though, just because it might help, and probably can't do much harm at this point.

[Axelrod]

It is unbelievable to me that GW has completely ignored multiple requests to post his test answers, and you guys are letting him get away with it.

1.B
2.B
3.D
4.C
5.C
6.D
7.B
8.B
9.D
10. C
11. A
12.D
13.C
14.B
15.C

My answers are the same as MR but I have 14 as "B" I do not recall at this moment why I have 14 as B, but I'm fairly sure it's something someone said previously.

I'll No Lynch, but I want GW to post what he submitted last Night and the Night before.

[Axelrod]

All right. I had some debate, but ultimately I decided to Doc protect Master Ruck last Night.

Ghostwriter?

[Axelrod]

SirD, I did not lie, and I have never lied this entire game. You asked me what I did "first" which is what I answered. I've learned that sometimes not spilling everything you have all at once is the best course of action in this game. Right now, for example, it tells me that you probably did, in fact, "Track" me, and therefore, were probably not out trying to kill someone else.

I've gained one other power which is completely irrelevant at this stage of the game, but I targeted GW with it anyway. It's a "peeking" power which let's me look at someone else's test even if they have alerts set up. Whoopie. I can do that plus another power in the same night though.

What I want to know is why Axel decided to use his doc power in the end. He told me that he was thinking of not using it as a 3-man end would make things easier to solve and that if there was no death, it would be one among whatever number of possibilities as to why a kill didn't go through. If he had all this logic, then why did he go ahead and use it?

I was thinking of not using it. And I was thinking of using it on SirD. And I was thinking a lot of other things besides.

Ultimately

I came to the conclusion that (1) assuming GW was scum, which was my assumption, then (2) YOU were his only logical target. And frankly, if I could stop a kill and have 3 townies living today, that would be significantly better than getting into a 3-man endgame where one mis-vote = lose, and SirD already expressing "suspicions" about me.

I'm now completely satisfied in my own mind that it's GW. The "I fixed my device and now I saw both who targeted MR and who he targeted" sounds like complete bunk. There's just no other possibility.

[Axelrod]

Ghost, what about this then: Tell me who

you

think is the scum right now. Because I'm not hearing anything at all about that from you, and definitely nothing to make me be change my feelings right about now.

I'm 99% that the scum can night kill and also use some other ability in the same night.

[Axelrod]

Since I had a result on Sirdan of him not committing a kill on a night when the last mafia did, I've cleared him in my mind. That leaves you and Master left, and since I'm leaning towards him as town, it's pointing towards you, though I haven't, by any means, cleared Master.

Okay, well, you can imagine this isn't doing much to change my opinion at least.

Are you maintaining that you got no other ability last Night after updating your test than getting your listening device "fixed?" Nothing else?

[Axelrod]

*facepalm*

Duh. Ok, I read that post differently and I thought that was your interpretation of it instead of you saying what you saw. Regardless, Axel is scum, and it's actually quite simple. I'm town, sird is town, and

it was proven yesterday that Ghost can't have killed anyone

. Among the mass powers and riddles that have come along with it, this seems almost scum fueled as they make themselves look as simple as possible while making the whole riddle as complex as possible.
...
Regardless of all this, the game breaking town win was said quit plainly at the start of this post. I'm town, sird is town,

ghost can't possibly have killed Jahudo

, so Axel is scum.

Vote: Axelrod

NO. MR what is the matter with you?

You appear to be mis-remembering your attitude about me Cop scanning Jahudo. As I recall (and I don't actually have to recall since I still have the PMs), you had absolutely no issues with it. You said it was a "good call." At the time, you were going to have GW covered, and I was going to have Jahudo covered, so almost regardless of what happened, we'd get information - and that didn't end up being the case. But for you to say now that you didn't think me scanning Jahudo was "worth it" and that I "ignored" you, and you were against it, are blatant falsehoods. Which is more than a little concerning.

And it was not "proved" yesterday that Ghost could not have killed anyone. SirD claimed a re-direct of GW to me. He said he was told it was "successful." GW claimed he used his "Listening Device" on Jahudo - the person who died - and said that he

didn't

"hear" me (which he ought to have, if I actually killed Jahudo, yes? He said he heard DGB kill someone earlier in the game and there was supposedly no doubt about it.) And YOU said your RB/Jailing attempt was re-directed onto you don't know who. SirD further claimed that someone did attempt to block him, but that it failed.

Those are contradiction that can't be explained except by someone lying or by scum being able to kill without interference.

I mean, the possibilities for what kind of hypothetical powers a scum might have gained in this game are endless, but with multiple townies gaining some kind of "re-direct" ability, the scum having a kill that can't be redirected/can't be blocked/unstoppable or something like that is not very hard to believe. There's also a distinction being drawn between "Normal" powers and "Special" powers, which I don't think was clear before today. I think it is entirely possible, and even likely that SirD - if his ability actually did anything at all the Night before, was unable to re-direct the kill. That is just not a huge intuitive leap to make in this game when it's clear there's a blatant contradiction in the Night action reports.

Read THIS again and tell me where I'm wrong.

You are now trying to make this sound simple, when it's anything but. And you are mis-representing our Night communications. Why are you doing that?

[Axelrod]

I'm not saying "kills are immune to re-direction." I'm saying the scum could

easily

have gained a power to make it so. Or his "Normal" ability could have been re-directed (successful!) and the killing ability not.

Or just something that gives SirD false results (Successful! when it's not). How you can say "the Mod. would not lie to players" is just wrong. Is the Mod. "lying" when he tells a Cop that a scum GF is town? I said this before, but there's also a distinction between "Successful - your ability was not blocked" and "Successful - your ability did what you intended it to do."

If I'm the scum, and GW is town, how do you explain his own claimed "results" - hearing Jahudo and SirD - and not me? Is the Mod. "lying" to him?

What do you think happened last Night - that I chose to re-direct you to GW and not kill...why? I'm not a fan of making WIFOM arguments, but what exactly do you think I (as scum) would have been trying to achieve there? Does that make any sense? You TOLD me you were going to "watch" SirD. What do I gain by "re-directing" you to GW and not killing? WIFOM is one thing, but that entire theory just makes no sense.

And I have to admit no such thing about Jahudo. He was pushing on me, and he was the one raising the most hackles. Who else? You are using 20-20 hindsight to say "look what a poor choice that was" but there's no way I could know that going in. Which you ought to know.

[Axelrod]

So you are saying you really think I did "re-direct" you just to cause arm waving hysterical mass confusion. Redirected you to a target that I myself would be targeting. On a Night I was otherwise planning to not kill anyone.

Lovely. I don't think there's a whole lot I can say to that.

SirD, I think it's on you. GW will hop on whenever you vote. If you are just so convinced that GW couldn't have killed anyone because our honorable mod. would just never have misled you so badly, then there's nothing else I can say.

[Axelrod]

So, you ended this post with a link to a page where, just a bit further down, I explained what happened that night, including the redirection that happened. You make it seem like I should have seen you kill Jahudo due to watching him. Too bad I attempted to target Sirdan, not Jahudo. When I did mention Jahudo in my post, it was because I did not see what the person I targeted did, it was because I saw who targeted that person. I saw Jahudo target him, and I was Sirdan target him. And I was told neither performed a kill. I did not, however, target Jahudo. I saw him because he came to my target that night: You. Since I was not told what you did that night, I can't be sure of anything you did that night, just what they did to you. Sort of. Either way, you're wrong. Thank you, try again.

I was mis-remembering who SirD "redirected" you to on the Night in question. It wasn't Jahudo, it was ME. You were "successfully" redirected to ME. My ultimate point remains the same. If SirD's ability was working as advertised, then YOU should have heard SOMETHING to do with me. I targeted Jahudo (with a Cop scan). Jahudo died. SirD targeted me. Regardless if you think I'm town or scum, you ought to have heard something to do with ME. But you didn't, yes? You said you heard something to do with Jahudo and SirD.

So, what is going on there? Is the Mod lying? This is what I keep saying and no one is hearing. People are saying "well, the Mod. wouldn't 'lie' to SirD, so he must have redirected GW like he said, and if he redirected GW like he said, and the person he redirected GW to didn't die, well, then GW couldn't have killed anyone.

But what GW

himself

said doesn't fit with that. Something else

must

be at play here. And that is not me trying to "confuse" anyone. It's exactly the truth.

Oh, nice job here. Sarcasm to try to debunk all things said against you, without actually arguing against them. Actually attacking the mod, saying that either the mod lied and I'm scum, or the mod told the truth, and you're scum. Yeah, that made a great defense. Thank you for giving me a great reason to vote you. I actually wasn't sure. Though Master Ruck did make a good argument, I said that I didn't completely trust him. I looked at the argument from a pro-town-MR view, and a scum-MR view, where he had been waiting to build a case against anyone, and saw you an easy target (due to it seeming like I was waiting for a chance to vote you, though it could be flipped to be said of him creating a case on me instead). I was taking it with a grain of salt, until your arguments against it got ridiculous.

I have totally argued against "all the things said against me." You can't point out where I haven't, because I have. At some length. So nice strawman there.

It's annoying to be accused of doing something stupid, and then, when I point out that said action would be stupid, get the response "well, maybe that's exactly why you did it!

Because

it was stupid! To cause confusion!" Very much the WIFOM scenario which is something I kind of detest. For lots of reasons, but mainly because I actually think people act with better reasons than that most of the time - if they are the type to think about what they are doing at all. And the WIFOM thing actually gets used MORE by scum to attack people than townies who are defending themselves.

And I fail to see, GW, where you have said anything against Master Ruck pretty much all game. I see no evidence where you have been "suspicious" of him. No times you made a case or questioned one of his posts. I mean, I could probably come up with a scenario where MR could be the scum - he's not got anyone "watching" or "tracking" him on the Night Jahudo died, so theoretically he was free to be doing that kill - but I don't actually believe it based on the way he's been posting most of the game (until recently with some of these attacks. But I also have a knee-jerk reaction believing that anyone who says they think I might be scum must themselves be the scum.)

But for you to say you have been "suspicious" of him and uncertain up to now appears to be you just making stuff up to try and sound like you are being unbiased and reasonable, perhaps because you smell blood?

[Axelrod]

I missed this:

MR says he was redirected. You do not claim a redirect ability. Could you exactly state your hypothesis on what happened last night in a clear and concise way, axel, from your point of view (as in assuming you are town).

Based on the number of claimed abilities flying around, I think it has to be the case that the scum are allowed to use their killing ability as well as some other ability in the same Night. So, given that, what I assume happened was that GW re-directed MR onto himself (MR had a "watcher" ability which he had already revealed to MR, so there would be no risk of GW getting "caught" by him, and in any event, GW was planning on killing him.

GW targets MR. I Doc protect MR and target GW with the alret bypass. You tracked me. No death results. And that makes so much more sense than "Scum Axelrod redirected MR onto GW and did nothing else."

[Axelrod]

CLAIM:

I have got a one-shot doc power. It is unlikely, albeit not impossible, that there are two doc powers.

I don't understand why you would have an issue with two townies getting 1-shot Doc powers in a game like this. Do you think your 1-shot (which you might never even have gained) would be the only Doc power?

I assumed from the beginning there would be duplication of powers. In fact, I assumed early on that everyone who answered the same numbers of questions would get exactly the same powers. That appears to not have been the case, but clearly there's duplication. Not just the Doc powers, but you and MR have both claimed Watcher/Tracker powers, which have also been claimed by GW, and I had a Cop power that was also gained by MR. That completely ignores what all the other players in the game might have gained if they had lived.

But, it does raise again one of the issues I have with GW's claim, which is that it's different from everyone else's. Everyone else (at least it appears this way to me) has been gaining powers based on test answers. Get a power here, a power there - sometimes two powers in the same Night if you got a lot correct. But GW is different. He says he's got this "machine." He says it wasn't working correctly at first, but, supposedly, as he got more test answers right, he was able to fix his machine, and now he can both Watch and Track people in the same Night. All his powers are based around this machine. That's just feels wrong. It is not the same thing as everyone else.

Also, the thing about him giving out wrong test answers. The scummy part is not that he chose to guess at test answers. It's not that he (supposedly) came up with a theory for what the correct answers should be and guessed. It's that he then

traded

those answers around with other players

representing that they were correct

. When he knew full well he was just guessing. That's simply unbelievable to me that he would do that as town.

[Axelrod]

So? I'm actually thinking this may make GW look more town as I severely doubt the scum would take such a gambit and come up with a power so different to everyone else. On top of that, if he is telling the truth and he is scum, he would most certainly

not

let the town know of this incredible power as he would instead do what he could to keep it hidden and pass off just enough information.

I think you have made your feeling clear. But maybe, just maybe you'll recognize you are being inconsistent here in order to come to the conclusion you already want to. I mean, you're agreeing that, yes, it does appear to be different from everyone else, but then flipping it to try and make that a point in his

favor

saying "but why would he make up something so different if he was scum?" The unspoken statement here is "it makes no sense for scum to claim differently."

You can imagine how annoyed that makes me. I'm getting suspicion for a supposed series of Night actions that makes no sense, and when I point out that it makes no sense I get "but maybe that's

exactly

why you did it!"

Also, I rather suspect GW

hasn't

claimed the full extent of his powers to us. Not by a long shot. What do you mean "if he's telling the truth and is scum?" If he's scum he's probably not telling the truth -certainly not the full truth.

[Axelrod]

AXELROD: WHAT DID YOU DO NIGHT 3. FULL CLAIM PLEASE

I am pretty certain that Night 3 I attempted to "Cheat" off of Jahudo. It was unsuccessful (I was told he covered his answers too well).

That was actually another reason why I wanted to Investigate him.

[Axelrod]

I am watching the NCAA tournament which means I'm basically not doing anything else in my life right now. Sorry for being slow to post.

Why, then, do you wait until now to reveal that? You told me why you were going to scan Jahudo so why not give your full reasoning? We basically trusted each other in full so it would have made more sense for you to explain this as well instead of saving it until now to tack on as another reason. I don't buy that one bit.

You have got the days wrong MR, I attempted to cheat off Jahudo on

Night 3

, not Night 4. Night 4 is the Night I used the Cop ability.

Seriously, it's like you are just going to attack every single post I make now and have completely lost all objectivity.

[Axelrod]

I know full well you claimed to scan Jahudo N4. You even gave me reasons as to why you wanted to scan him. My question, if you chose not to deliberately misinterpret it, is why you did not also state that as one of your reasons when, if true, should clearly have existed at the time instead of just now.

We did not have any kind of discussion about "why" I was going to inspect Jahudo, as you are fully well aware. I said that I was going to do it - because I was still feeling he might be scum, and I thought that coupled with you "Jailing" GW should have had all our bases covered - to which you replied "good call."

The fact that I was unable to cheat off of him the Night before was completely irrelevant at that point. It's not something I could have really used to attack him, because (1) townies can set alerts; (2) Jahudo in particular could claim to have set an alert on me because he was actively expressing suspicion anyway. It was something that made

me

more suspicious, but wouldn't mean anything for anyone else.

I wasn't trying to hide it though. It just didn't come up. Which you know.

Again, I might point out what would be the purpose exactly of me lying about this - especially when, as scum, I could just say I sat on my bumm and did nothing - but that doesn't seem to get me anywhere, does it?

[Axelrod]

I'm feeling burned out and I'm tired of arguing into the wind. SirD, I don't know what I can say to you to convince you at this point. What is convincing you?

Axel, town would do whatever they could to NOT sit on their bum and do nothing. Doing anything, even something as simple as attempting to cheat, is not nearly as bad as doing nothing. I'm not seeing why a blocked cheat would make you feel he was scummy either. Every night I have set up alerts against every player alive and so did Dattebayo before me. They are there for protection so Jahudo must have done as I did by setting up alerts against every player he could. That you weren't able to cheat off him does not give even a tiny reason to think he is scum(my).

It certainly did give me a "tiny" reason, and you saying it shouldn't doesn't make it so. I did not set Alerts on anyone except people I thought might be scum for the whole game. It's great that you think it's suspicious that I didn't volunteer this information to you though when you consider it so meaningless.

Axel would you agree that the answer to this would be yes?

It could be yes. I wouldn't ever say that it definitely would be yes. A re-director picks one person to "re-direct" and he usually picks one person to re-direct that person to, so you either say that he targets 1 person and then the other person targets the first, or you say he targets both. And then it depends on how the Mod is interpreting the "Watching" or "Tracking" power. Different Mods will do it differently.

[Axelrod]

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!



Seriously, you got me. I feel bad for dragging this whole affair out for the last couple weeks when I was pretty sure I was dead in the water night before last, but I don't really do concessions.

My master plan to jail SirD with MR's jail ability and get GW lynched was totally foiled when SirD came up with a redirect ability of his own, which apparently "beats" the jailing ability, and furthermore, chose to redirect GW onto

me

, making it rather hard for me to argue that GW killed Jahudo.

And then last night was just a mess.....

Good game guys.