Mini Theme 2312| Blood on the Clocktower: Sects & Violets | Village are Doomed!

[AniX]

When I've played Clocktower before, the better town games are the ones where Town identifies what kind of Minion/Demon they are dealing with early on, so everyone be on the lookout for clues.

Evil Twin we'll learn pretty much immediately since both Good and Evil Twins will want to get that info out.
Witch we won't learn until it triggers but we'll know for a fact once it does.
Cerenovus we'll possibly learn Day 2, unless they decide to madnesslock someone and never not target them. Once we find out there is a Novus, keep that in mind for if anyone starts suddenly and randomly changing claims, because we'll need to fill in their blanks for them so they don't get killed for breaking madness.
Pit-Hag, if they target a good player, we should find out immediately (unless the player decides to be goofy and keep this info from town) since alignment doesn't change.

[AniX]

It is Night, but kind of a weird Night because some abilities will ONLY work this Night phase and some ability work every night BUT this one, but you can talk any time during this game, yes.

[AniX]

Yeah, Demon knows all Minions and Minions know the Demon and other Minions, according to the normal BotC rules and also the sample PMs. It is unclear whether they get a hood (or temporary hood) together. Standard BotC would allow them to talk to one another, but this is not standard.

The three roles is exactly what it sounds like: The Demon will be told 3 roles that no town player has which they can use to bluff as (or pass along to the Minions to bluff as).

[AniX]

From the way the PM examples are set-up, it doesn't look like Minions and Demon can talk privately unless they're beside each other on the list?

Yeah. Which makes me think at least the Demon and one Minion are next to each other, because Demon not being able to talk privately AT ALL to the minions is 1. A HUGE departure from base game that I don't think Enchant necessarily would want to make 2. Puts the Demon and Minion at a serious disadvantage.

[AniX]

Oh, wait, there is only one minion in the game. I don't know why I keep thinking there is 2. Nothing I said is WRONG but certainly "Minions know all other Minions" is...superfluous.

[AniX]

Couple quick thoughts:

We should definitely be executing someone today, I don't think even a random kill can ever be a worse idea than the 1/4 chance there's a vortox in play and we lose the game.

Ideally we try and keep the number of nominations/number of people who vote today at a healthy split for the flower girl and town crier, dream scenario would be four of us vote and four of us nominate, but the chance of a witch being in play probably makes that worse and the optimal number of nominations probably becomes two or three.

We should also all give juggles at some point today regardless of role, it's just a freeroll and there's no reason not to help give cover.

Yeah, anyone who even CONSIDERS no kill today with a Vortox in play should be the kill today lol

[AniX]

I don't think I understand the Vote vs Nominate function.

Can't I just VOTE: Player like usual?

Yes, which will automatically also nominate. Usually, you'll want to vote and nominate and so the normal process might work. The big differences is you can only nominate once, so once you use your nomination you'll have to wait for someone else to nominate before you can vote for them and certain abilities trigger on nomination (but not voting) or voting (but not nominating).

It should also be noted you can vote for as many nominated people as you like, but you can never UNVOTE even if you change your mind later and you'll have to wait for the next day for the votes to clear.

[AniX]

For example: A reason someone might nominate without voting is if town suspects there is a flower girl in play and wants to get some nominations on the record to test for Minions. A few people might want to nominate a user you have no intention of voting for just to fuel that ability.

[AniX]

From the way the PM examples are set-up, it doesn't look like Minions and Demon can talk privately unless they're beside each other on the list?

Yeah. Which makes me think at least the Demon

and one Minion

are next to each other, because Demon not being able to talk privately AT ALL to the minions is 1. A HUGE departure from base game that I don't think Enchant necessarily would want to make 2. Puts the Demon and Minion at a serious disadvantage.

But there' only ONE demon and ONE minion, right?

Correct. I forgot this game has a smaller pool, I'm used to playing with 13 people where there are multiple little Minion shits running around.

[AniX]

i read and still have no idea what people are talking about

what does nominating do

Ok, everyone has the ability to nominate ONE person and ONLY ONE person a day, which allows the person to be voted for. So nominating is using up your one "this person can be voted for" for the day. Now, usually this is no problem, because the person you want to nominate and vote for is also the person you want dead. But if you change your mind (or your choice doesn't gain traction), you'll need to rely on other people's nominations to get an elimination for the day.

[AniX]

You can vote for as many people as you want, but you can never unvote. So it isn't like normal Mafia where you get 1 vote and move it around. It is more that the nominations are trying to gain signatures, so to speak, and the first nom to gain the proper amount of signatures go through.

[AniX]

It sounds confusing, but it will start making sense once nominations start going up.

[AniX]

It is more a Goldilocks sort of thing, where you try to get a good cross-section of the site to start and then start narrowing it down.

[AniX]

If Demon created this way, deaths this night are arbitrary.

??

Mod would choose in whatever method the mod pleases.

If you kill Minion this way, they keep ability and one of closest Townsfolk to them in playerlist will be Poisoned.

this seems like not something scum would want to do yeah?

You might if they have a lot of heat on them. Remember, dead players can still talk, so it might be worth it to a Demon to sacrifice Minion's ability to 1. get the heat off them (since now they seem good since they were demon killed) and 2. get this consolation prize.

Townsfolk abilities yield false info.

i assume this means the investigatives would get random results?

Random, once you eliminate the truth since it can NEVER be true (which is how you catch a Vortox, everyone goes "There is no way all this info can exist in the same game")

[AniX]

Random in the sense the mod can choose any particular way.

[AniX]

the false results makes sense, for the pit-hag...why

In practice, the "arbitrary kill" is the mod re-balancing the game by killing off one of the Demons.

[AniX]

Usually the pre-existing Demon, so effectively the Pit Hag (targeting themselves or another minion) would do a Demon coup. There is no other reason a Pit Hag would want to create a second Demon, since a town-aligned Demon is...not good for scum.

[AniX]

All this is speculation based on what I've seen in the past, a mod may choose to do just about anything. It would be very rare a mod would let a Pit hag just summon a second evil demon though without consequence.

[AniX]

I forgot they keep ability. Which is even more reason why a demon would want to do it, because all they lose is the Minion can't vote more than once.

[AniX]

Also keep in mind poisoning is BETTER than a roleblock because the townie will still believe their ability is functioning and will still be getting results. Those results will just now be crafted by the mod to hinder the player (poisoning often leads to wrong results, but it may not. For example, a mod might start giving a player correct results again if they suspect they are poisoning, making them believe the real result is a poisoned wrong result)

[AniX]

i was thinking they could turn someone into vortox, but giving town a vig seems bad, evil twin could make sense though? idk how that would work

pedit: ? do they normally have multiple votes

Turning someone into a Vortox wouldn't help because the town-Vortox would know and would just say "Hey, I was pit hagged into a Vortox, all your results will now be wrong."

Yes, a living player can vote for as many nominated people as they like, every day. A dead player can vote for one player, one time.

[AniX]

i mean yeah it still generally seems better to kill them though

Not always. Because again, a dead player doesn't stop talking. So a dead player now can just share all their secrets and be confirmed likely good and telling the truth. Sometimes, you want to stop an ability you know or suspect a townie has and killing them is worth it. But sometimes, town-jacketing your partner is worth much more. Sometimes, you might even value poisoning a player over killing them since they'll pied piper the town in the wrong way with their opposites results. Like killing an investigative confirms them. Poisoning them right before they target you and get wrong information about you has a tendency to confirm YOU.

[AniX]

oh so the pit hag minion still dies but keeps the ability? wild

if the vortox results are random (which is what i thought you were saying) then you still just get to disable town investigatives which is useful

Only investigatives whose ability can have more than one result. But sometimes like the Flowergirl/Town Crier/Seamstress would only be disabled until they figure out there is a Vortox, because they get binary results and the results under a Vortox are always wrong. So once they know there is a Vortox, they know the correct answer is the inverse of whatever answer they've been getting (ie. once a seamstress learns there is a vortox, they can go back and see that every result they got where two players DIDN'T share an alignment is now confirmed as those players actually sharing an alignment, since the only false answer to "yes, they share an alignment" is "no, they don't share an alignment.")

[AniX]

I probably I misspoke at some point, I wasn't expecting to educate the entire town on the game lol so let me try to clarify:

Vorton Info: MUST be false. Mod may choose any method to falsify the information if it has multiple options, but it cannot be true and in a binary option (Yes/no) it MUST be the wrong one.
Poison/Drunk: MAY be false. Mod will typically interpret the game in such a way to determine what would be most detrimental to the player, which could be correct information or could be false information.

There is no true randomness in this game in so much as there is never a moment the mod MUST randomize information given out.

[AniX]

Talking is actually most of the day too, even more so than Mafia, because while there are more votes, people will likely be more cautious in nomming because you only get to do it once a day.

[AniX]

Really. Where is everyone?

Traditionally, Blood on the Clocktower has less public talk than Mafia does, although the neighborhood restrictions will probably increase public talk significantly.

[AniX]

How would we even know if someone was poisoned or drunked?

If their role starts producing results that don't make sense.

[AniX]

How would we even know if someone was poisoned or drunked?

If their role starts producing results that don't make sense.

Well has that happened to you or anyone else?

It would be very difficult to know that information yet, because it isn't like the information is going to be information that is overtly nonsense like giving you a result about Zoraster or giving you a ping on a role that is not in the game. But as we move through the game, we will see that someone's results don't fit into the game state (or potentially their own results don't match themselves, like they get multiple demon results on living players) and we can speculate from there.

This is a game where reads are less important (although they can still be important) and flow of information is CRITICAL. A town that doesn't share information relatively freely with at least some people is a town that is going to lose.

[AniX]

The roles will list if they go off on night 1 or not in the sample role PM. All the demons have "each night but the first" language, as do some other roles, but other roles just have "each night"

Ability Happens First Night:
Clockmaker (but ONLY first night)
Dreamer
Snake Charmer
Mathematician
Witch
Cerenovus

All other roles with night abilities do not happen first night and so did not happen last night.

[AniX]

Well, it is more likely we have a Vortox since there is a 1/4 chance of that and would impact everyone, which isn't really that "tiny". But poison or drunk could also be in play:

Ok, Random Nurse is definitely poisoned or drunk, which actually is very good information. It indicates one of the following situations is true:

Philosopher named Artist, perhaps thinking the Artist is a power rule to get (this is a very common mindset. I don't really agree because one question doesn't really do much), said Artist and, since Artist is in game, named Artist. No reason for Philosopher to be shy if this is the case, they don't have any role anymore.

Sweetheart is out, we haven't had a death to trigger it yet. Ditto Vigormortis.

Vortox is a contender, as I previously mentioned.

No Dashii is also a contender, although that puts more suspicion on me as a neighbor AND an info flip. Who is your other neighbor, Nurse?

I think we should see if anyone else got weird info (you don't need to mention this info) that would indicate Vortox. Otherwise, I think I'm a pretty strong contender for town's kill today, to take me off the board as a distraction. Then, if people still aren't getting a Vortox feel after results tomorrow, the next logical person to investigate should be Nurse's other neighbor (if anyone has any investigation roles, that'd a solid choice tonight)

[AniX]

Oh, I guess I should mention I'm (currently unflipped) Snake Charmer, so there is a non-0% chance Enchant would interpret that as "working for the forces of evil" since I COULD change alignments at some point, but if he did that I'd be pretty pissed with that interpretation to be honest. At any rate, I'm not really a huge town asset anyway so no big loss killing me today.

[AniX]

Please excuse the "definitely drunk or poisoned" clause, which I wrote, realized Vortox would also explain it, but then didn't delete. "Definitely" is not true. Possibly is.

[AniX]

Vote: Anix

[AniX]

Ok, Random Nurse is definitely poisoned or drunk, which actually is very good information. It indicates one of the following situations is true:

Do you have some information that proves Random Nurse is town? Assuming you are town, I don't see how you can rule out the possibility that Random Nurse is simply lying.

Philosopher named Artist, perhaps thinking the Artist is a power rule to get (this is a very common mindset. I don't really agree because one question doesn't really do much), said Artist and, since Artist is in game, named Artist.

No reason for Philosopher to be shy if this is the case, they don't have any role anymore.

What do you mean by this?

1. No, but if Random Nurse is lying town should send him a fruit basket because Minion/Demon drawing attention to themselves in this game as their first real action is a bold and foolish move. Nurse exposing himself to take me out and only getting a Snake Charmer in the bargain would be a town win.

2. The Philosopher is a one-off role. In BotC, information is key and any reason they might have to not claim is worth much less than the information they are the source of the drunkenness here.

[AniX]

Oh, I guess I should mention I'm (currently unflipped) Snake Charmer, so there is a non-0% chance Enchant would interpret that as "working for the forces of evil" since I COULD change alignments at some point, but if he did that I'd be pretty pissed with that interpretation to be honest. At any rate, I'm not really a huge town asset anyway so no big loss killing me today.

N1 target?

I actually forgot my role is a must and not a may so I didn't submit since the role is a little tricky to play wincon-wise (from my current wincon, it doesn't make sense for me to random choose people, since one could be a demon which is bad for my current wincon, even if my wincon changes immediately, I am making the initial choice as a townie). Enchant just had my role do nothing, which technically shouldn't be allowed since, again, must not may, but I suppose it can be coded as just a self-target.

[AniX]

I actually forgot my role is a must and not a may so I didn't submit since the role is a little tricky to play wincon-wise (from my current wincon, it doesn't make sense for me to random choose people, since one could be a demon which is bad for my current wincon, even if my wincon changes immediately, I am making the initial choice as a townie). Enchant just had my role do nothing, which technically shouldn't be allowed since, again, must not may, but I suppose it can be coded as just a self-target.

This makes no sense. Randomly checking someone is much better than doing nothing since 6 times out of 7 you gain very valuable info.

And 1 times out of 7 I completely switch alignments and never reveal that info to town. I am very risk-adverse when it comes to Snake Charmer.

[AniX]

I think my wincon requires me to practice more care in taking that risk such that I don't make choices based on a whim, which is what a n1 choice would have been.

[AniX]

An awkwardness in converting BotC to Mafia is the increased wincon burden. BotC is not designed to be played competitively in the way we do Mafia and as such, while you obviously aren't supposed to deliberately sabotage your team, playing Snake Charmer as a sort of "I am going to play this neutral because at any time I could switch teams" is a valid playstyle. The rules of competitive mafia, and particularly the rules of the site, make that sort of playstyle a bit murkier. I am currently town. Me converting to Demon does not help town, which I am obligated to help to the fullest of my ability right now.

[AniX]

Well, once the Demon reveals himself, I have a different wincon and I wouldn't want that to happen. Snake Charmer is not really a role I would put in this game because it puts me in a weird position where anything I do will produce results that will hurt my wincon when that result happens, but it is in the game, I have the role, and I have to navigate how it interacts with wincon requirements.

[AniX]

It hurts the town because all information, reads, etc. go out the window because two alignments just flipped. The game moves to everyone suspecting everyone else. A flipped Snake Charmer produces chaos and just by process of elimination tends to happen later in the game and thus produces more chaos. The town is better served by me being a vanilla townie than someone who explodes the town on a 1/7, then 1/6, then 1/5, etc. etc.

[AniX]

Yes, information is important, which is why it is just that much more important to not turn the entire information circle upside down in latestage game.

[AniX]

I'm not really sure what you are trying to prove here though. I am telling people to vote me, you are already voting me, I am voting for myself, there is no role in the game that triggers ill effects if an evil player dies by execution. There isn't really much value in debating whether you would play the role in a different way than I am.

[AniX]

Like if you think I'm lying about being Snake Charmer, we should be killing me. If you think I am actually the Snake Charmer, we should still be killing me.

[AniX]

It explodes the town by rendering all previous information potentially moot because an alignment/role shift has occurred. Flower Girls and Two Crier math no longer works, Clockmakers are irrelevant, Dreamers/Seamstresses have to start over/lose out if they are dead, Savants don't know if what they were told still is accurate, Artists might lose any value from their question depending on what they asked...

[AniX]

Well, once the Demon reveals himself, I have a different wincon and I wouldn't want that to happen.

so? i don't get what you're saying here, if you're just playing to the town wincon while you have a town role, swapping alignments isn't a disaster and the risk seems well well worth it. if you're playing to try to win the game, which is probably what i would do, it's even less bad to swap alignments because you're just playing a normal game as scum with town down 1 pr.

if we're agreeing to lim anix here, we can try to maximize flowergirl and town crier. though i'm not sure if you can actually vote without nominating? that would make things more complicated

You can vote freely for anyone already currently nominated (which is just me), just remember you cannot remove your vote once cast. Or you can use your one nomination of the day to nominate someone new.

[AniX]

Is it your view a Minion would immediately encourage themselves to be executed when there are a number of still in play ways to discredit Nurse? If I was actually a minion, I'd have liked to have thought I'd have just stopped in my "well, not a tiny chance, here's why". What benefit does Minion-me derive from dying right now?

[AniX]

Because an open Snake Charmer is a town distraction, the town will never fully trust me because every day could be a possible flip AND I have an open guilty result on me that is yet unexplained. It is better to eliminate me now, remove the distraction, and move on, especially when there doesn't seem to be much other information to go on.

[AniX]

If you were reading my posts you'd know I'm the Artist that got a guilty on Anix.

I understand that, you saying that probably means that you're not reading mine.

I believe he is. As stated before it's highly unlikely I was targeted Night 1 to be Drunk or Poisoned.

I really have to remind you that 1. There is 1/4 chance of Vortox 2. Artist is an attractive role for Philosopher

[AniX]

That isn't to say I think we shouldn't kill me, mind you.

Vote: End the Day

[AniX]

I believe people want to set up a few people for testing in case there is a Town Crier/Flowergirl

[AniX]

There is a possibility there is Town Crier or Flower Girl, who benefits from having some but not all of the town nominate/vote so they can slim down possible pools.

[AniX]

Nom: Infinity 324

[AniX]

Yes, the first NK will happen tonight.

[AniX]

Barring something weird like the Demon sinks a nightkill for some reason.

[AniX]

Correct. I (and everyone else who dies) can play exactly the same as I was before in every aspect except the following ways:
- We can no longer post in our hoods, we can only communicate publicly
- I no longer have my ability
- I cannot nominate
- I can only vote one time for the rest of the game and once I do I can never vote again

[AniX]

Alright, with TWO people independently getting wrong information, I'm ready to say we have a Vortox game.

We SHOULD be able to prove it relatively soon, since Infinity got a Minion flip on me and there is only one Minion, all with unique abilities that can't really be faked, and I know its not me. Twin should already have revealed itself, so probably not that. Pit Hag is POSSIBLE and we'll know today unless Pit Hag guessed an in-play role twice/targeted themselves or Demon twice. Novis could novislock (target the same person over and over) and we'll never know but other than that, we should get someone being like "I was made mad yesterday" today. I think Witch is probably the most likely, especially since there was low nom counts yesterday.

HPE should probably claim.

[AniX]

Please note that the Vigormortis ability only works if THEY kill the Minion, so if we see any Minion ability happening going forward, it cannot be me and both Nurse and Infinity's info is wrong.

Also the only neighbor they share now dead which is really useful since it eliminates No Dashii as the cause of both wrong.

[AniX]

People with spent abilities/abilities that we can afford to lose should all nominate today to witch test.

[AniX]

Uh huh. So you're claiming I lied as the Artist or that I was somehow made Drunk or Poisoned, and you're saying Anix wasn't working for the forces of Evil?

I highly doubt that. You're either the Minion or the Demon.

VOTE: Vanderscamp

They just said they think there's a Vortox.

He's basically saying that I lied about using my Artist ability on Anix (getting a guilty on Anix) and saying that "oh, both Scum still exist," so either he's saying my result was compromised by the Poison/Drunk ability or he's implying I lied, which I do NOT.

No, he's saying the Mod lied to you about your Artist ability because the demon is a Vortox who forces the mod to lie to literally everyone on all results.

[AniX]

I believe Random is probably town and the demon is between atsi/Hu Tao/Piggy, with not much discernible difference between the three atm, although I think atsi is the towniest among them.

At six alive with two evils alive if we kill incorrectly today we lose, so I'd just like to kill infinity today and move on

Yeah, Random is reading as town who just didn't bother to pay attention to the multiple times its been explained, whereas I feel like an actual Demon would be a bit more "I don't think it is a Vortox because..."

Infinity refusing to counter-claim Twin is super-interesting. Infinity, if you are the other Twin, for God's sake claim. We need to kill one of you or Vander to win. I know it may seem like a Good town play to not counter-claim. It is not. Every Twin game where the Good Twin doesn't claim I have seen is a game where town loses.

[AniX]

I believe so. If we vote to End the Day with nobody with enough votes to get executed, the day will end but nobody will be executed. That said, we should give Klutz as much time as possible to make their decision.

[AniX]

I believe so as in "I believe so that we can no vote and get more info".

[AniX]

oh right, yes, duh. Vortox needs a kill. Yes, we will absolutely lose if we do that. Good catch, I would have remembered EVENTUALLY.

We should hold off on twin-killing because we'll also lose if we vote the wrong one. Let's not put ourselves in two "choose correct or lose" situations on the same day.

[AniX]

Correct. Drunk/Poisoned basically turns the role vanilla.

[AniX]

Something in my gut tells me my Artist ability on Anix was correct.

It feels like was just, like, barely any reaction from Anix in response to my result.

Perhaps I am biased, but wouldn't a Town/Outsider fight back like Hell against a false/manipulated claim?

This game is all sorts of confusions, the dead are talking, and I still have NO flips so NO actual information.

Like I've said like...5 times now, confirming Vortox is THE most important town mission so why would I react when your goals and mine were aligned. You wanted me dead because you believed I was evil. I wanted me dead because it was the fastest way to confirm Vortox.

It is frustrating to read your messages because you were told by multiple people multiple times what Vortox does and you argued with everyone that you weren't lying, even though nobody was accusing you of lying. You got aggressive about it even! And I still think you don't really understand how this game differs from regular Mafia (you admit to being confused) and instead of going "I need to take a step back and reassess, maybe re-read the rules", you are going "Actually I don't need to know anything, I'm just going to trust my gut"

[AniX]

I do want to clarify something, because it tricked me for a second before I remembered: Normally, you never need to wonder if a dead player is the Demon because if the Demon is dead, town has won. Town never doesn't need to normally kill the Minion to win because the town win condition is "You win when the Demon is dead".

We only are in a situation where Demon can be dead and town still can not have won, which is because town can't win with Evil Twin still alive.

[AniX]

if there does have to be a vortox, that means anix is town then right? i don't see why that's not the world we live in

i do think I have to be limmed today cause of Occam's razor, which is a bit frustrating because there's no way to know for sure that vander is lying, but I don't see what else we can do

Yes, if there is Vortox, all results NEED to be false, so any result that has me as Minion or evil team would be, as a matter of basic game state, not true because the mod has no option BUT to give incorrect information in a Vortox game.

if there does have to be a vortox, that means anix is town then right? i don't see why that's not the world we live in

i do think I have to be limmed today cause of Occam's razor, which is a bit frustrating because there's no way to know for sure that vander is lying, but I don't see what else we can do

@random nurse I'm pretty sure barring extreme circumstances anix has to be town

That I don't know.

Is it not possible he could be the Minion and lying?

Contrary to before, while town benefits from me dying as town because it helps confirm Vortox, Evil team does NOT benefit from a Minion dying so I would have no reason to try to quicklim myself without any fight whatsoever.

[AniX]

From my POV, Anix is confirmed good.

I know this because I'm the good twin and I know infinity is the evil twin.
So for Anix to be evil, they have to be the demon specifically, because the minion is already accounted for, but this is not possible because there was a kill last night.



So if Anix is evil, I'm also evil, everyone else is confirmed good, and I would have to be the demon.

If I'm the demon, I have to be no dashi or vortox based on atsi's mathematician info because no one has claimed a power that drunks people (according to what atsi has said about hu tao) and fang gu and vigormortis don't have the ability to poison people. Vigormortis does, but I obviously didn't kill my minion last night so this is impossible.

Vortox can be ruled out because multiple townsfolk (all townsfolk?) are getting correct information about the evil team.


So I would have to be specifically no dashi, but this doesn't work from the mathematician info either based on my previous post.

Sorry but I'm not sure I understand this part. How can we rule out you being the Vortox?

He is saying that in a world where I am evil and Vander is evil, the Vortox cannot exist because two people pegged me as evil (Infinity and RN). In a worldview where I am evil, that information is CORRECT and they would only be able to receive it if a Vortox is not in play.

[AniX]

...are you making a joke or have you just demon-confessed because you haven't read the rules?

[AniX]

Person who is under credible suspicion for being the evil team: "My role in this game where everyone has an ability? No ability vanilla townie."

[AniX]

Then it should be no trouble for Hu to claim here too.

[AniX]

Yeah, it is either a shitpost with no legitimate follow-up during a time when town really needs information since we have a twin situation (anti-town) or it is outright claiming a role that doesn't exist in the game (VERY anti-town)

[AniX]

The only alternate I see is they are trying to softpedal Mutant, in which case them dying/getting modkilled will STILL be good for town because it exposes you HPE lol

[AniX]

Look at the first post of this page.

[AniX]

Or second to last post of last page, I guess, but it is quoted in the first post so I am not a total fool.

[AniX]

1. HighPrincessErinys - klutz
D2: Random Nurse is good

It should be noted that this (and possibly Infinity being evil twin) are the only two pieces of information that would not be impacted by Vortox.

[AniX]

Does anyone know what Hu Tao's "everyone read their role PM correctly" info could mean? Since we've established that there's a Vortox, someone must have read theirs incorrectly.

I think if no one admits to having read their role PM incorrectly, I guess we can conclude that either a scum read it incorrectly or Hu Tao is scum.

Or someone read their PM wrong and still doesn't realize they read it wrong?

[AniX]

I've found people who read things wrong once have a tendency to read things wrong even on successive readings.

It's POSSIBLE it could be me though, although Enchant didn't know I thought it was optional until well after I realized it wasn't.

[AniX]

We should probably consider candidates outside of the Twin binary.

[AniX]

I think voting in the 50/50 is better

Why on earth should the town engage in an unforced possibility of auto-lose if we choose incorrectly?

[AniX]

Like, if Vander is the good Twin, that's it. The game ends and town loses.

[AniX]

We should be pretty conservative with dead votes here btw, we shouldn't use any if we can help it; if we miss today then being at 2 vs 2 is going to make it impossible to make majority without at least one dead vote, and we really want to be saving them as much as possible

Yeah, I am not even THINKING of touching my dead vote until endgame.

[AniX]

Are you referring to people voting multiple times? Remember, players can vote for as many nominated people as they want (the only limited use is they can only nominate one person a day, but that isn't the case here)

[AniX]

Not quite, because town loses if we lim the Good Twin.

[AniX]

You forgot your own wincon?

I mean, we do know SOMEONE read their role PM wrong.

[AniX]

I guess the argument is he mentally was doing the calculation in the reverse direction: "There are 0 demons left alive"

[AniX]

why? if there's a vortox, 2 true statements is false info because it's not 1 true and 1 false statement.

"Role not working as advertised" is not how Vortox works. That is how drunk/poison work. Drunk/poison is "Mod has discretion to have the role not work as intended". Vortox is "Every piece of information the mod provides a user must be false". Two pieces of true information is the role not working as intended, but it absolutely ISN'T "all information provided by the mod is false"

[AniX]

How on earth would you interpret "Townsfolk abilities yield

false

info" to be "Statements can be true for certain roles". This really feels like evil team cope.

[AniX]

Because both pieces of actual information provided to the player is true. The "One of the following is true and the other is false" isn't information. It is a description of how the role works the appears pro forma. You yourself even structured it that way, using bracketed filler to indicate where actual info would go.

[AniX]

Let's just wait for the mod to tell you you're wrong.

[AniX]

It is absolutely not unclear for "yields false info" to lead to "gives two true statements". The only one confused here is you, potentially performatively so.

[AniX]

I suppose we'll find out tonight. Demon sinking 2 kills would be quite sub-optimal play, even for town chaos purposes.

[AniX]

Vote: End Day

Not much value in prolonging this.

[AniX]

Kinda worried that scum will tie the vote. So I will wait until it's 4/5 before voting to end day.

I'm not sure this makes sense. Why would scum draw immense heat on themselves to protect a townie?z

Also, how do you expect to get 5? You'd need every player to vote for Infinity, including Infinity, to vote to get there or you'd need town to waste ghost votes. The former is unlikely and the latter is foolish.

[AniX]

Yeah, infinity...what the fuck were you doing? You 1000% lost this game for us, like I told you we would if you were actually the Good Twin and didn't tell us.

[AniX]

In general, I think this game would go a lot smoother if people actually learned read through the game. I think a lot of people just assumed they knew how to play, never actually looked at the actual rules, and calamity followed.

[AniX]

All in all, I did enjoy the game though. I'll admit to have been very skeptical when I first heard this game suggested because there are so many tweaks to make it forum-ready but I think you, Enchant, did a good job of converting a formula not really built for slow forum play into forum play.

I'm going to be open that the most frustrating part was people just plain refusing to learn the rules. Infinity, I wouldn't beat yourself up, at least your thing was a genuine mistake, but, like, Random Nurse, my guy, you were getting so heated over being called a liar FOR DAYS because you just refused to read the Demon roles and refused to read anything anyone told you about the Demon roles.

[AniX]

Just kind of weird to see multiple ways through which the mod can lie to you, be told multiple times by multiple people there is at minimum a 1/4 chance the mod is lying to you, and yet spend a good portion of the game trying to angrily arguing the mod wouldn't lie to you.

[AniX]

...I don't know if I even follow that logic in a regular game, because evil team will ALSO fight back against being limmed.

[AniX]

Especially in this game, where I can still play the game in virtually all the same ways except my ability (and with voting restriction), being mis-limmed is more mildly inconvenient than anything else for town. But it is devastating most of the time for evil because there is only a handful of them and their abilities are very useful.

[AniX]

I don't know if it is complex so much as it is just a lot of new rules.