Mini 696 ~ Scum o' the Sea ~ Game Over

[ClockworkRuse]

See the above. Plus I want to claim

because

of my role.

I'm indifferent to this either way. If the majority of the town disagrees, then I will claim by myself.

Oh, and flavor lynching is absolutely horrible in this game.

[Huntress]

And then the doc knows who to protect. I'm willing to bet there's a doc, given last night's kill.

If indeed there was a doc protect last night then I guess the doc already knows who to protect. By exposing other possible targets aren't you making it more difficult for the doc to know who to protect and easier for the scum to avoid the doc-protect?

I don't remember anyone supporting massclaim for flavor lynching.

How about these?

I like the idea of a mass claim because you can catch someone with the flavor.

I think we may just be able to work out who is scum based solely on flavour.

Your point about role actions makes sense although it would depend on whether there was enough information available from the actions to make it work.


Still waiting to hear from Crywolf and Springlullaby, both of whom have been posting elsewhere on the site (Crywolf quite extensively) in the last few days but not here.

[Goatrevolt]

Why are we planning on mass claiming? I don't think it's a very good idea.

1. We haven't outed any power roles yet. Mass claiming will be sure to do that for us.

And then the doc knows who to protect. I'm willing to bet there's a doc, given last night's kill.

If this were in any sense true, then town would mass claim day 1 in every single game. There are reasons this doesn't happen.

The reason this is completely flawed is that a single mafia roleblocker can completely invalidate absolutely everything you just said. They block the doc and kill whomever the doc should be protecting. Even if the mafia don't have a roleblocker, they can kill the doc and then kill the other power roles later on.

Either way, mass claiming tells the scum exactly who they should kill and how they should play. If there is a doc, they are doing quite fine on their own, and there's no reason to expose them. If we want information from town power roles, I suggest we let them decide themselves when they want to claim it.

I feel that mass claiming is only really good in 3 situations (generally).

1. Poorly designed setup where the scum can't fake claim and will get outed.

2. We're looking for 1 more scum and want to get all the info out there to narrow it down.

3. It's Lylo or close too it, and we need everything on the table to not lose.

Day 3, with one scum dead, and 0 town power roles outed is not the time for it.

[springlullaby]

Goatrevolt, I think your reaction is kinda too defensive too early, which is quite scummy: I haven't made a case against you yet. Guilty conscience at play?

As for your accusation against me, it is strawman and faulty. I accused you of parroting exactly what I said, which is scummy for the reason I described, not of being against massclaim.

--------------------------------------------

Huntress, I think your defense is okay on the reasonable level, but you see, I still think you are very high probability scum for the reasons I described.

And your attack on clockwork is pretty scummy too, because from where I sit, his push for massclaim is pretty protown. Here I expect you to say something about my contradicting myself, and I'm going to pre-emptively answer you that this kind of argument show linear logic, which is very often indicative of scum, in line with Goatrevolt's accusation: sometimes town people are of a diverging opinion, it doesn't impede them from appearing town while expressing it.

Plus that accusation about Mickey Mouse is just very scummy. It is lower end emotional manipulation. Tell me, how would you have dealt with MM were you here when she was still aroud? Bottom line is MM's modkill is regrettable, but ultimately her own fault.

Also, I'm noting your accusations of rolefishing, not that they holds ground (btw, 'informed minority' means scum), I think they are not in line with your play. In clear, I think that by accusing me of rolefishing you hope to subconsciously hint at you being a powerrole, but you see, I don't think any kind of town powerrole would have made the wishy-washy answer you first made in regard to massclaim.

There is also something else you said that I have noticed. I will hold it against you or not depending on your future play I whether you conform to my prediction.

-----------------------------------------------------

Erratus Apathos: your defense of me is starting to ping my scumdar, as your avoidance of restating your case on Goat.

---------------------------------------------------------

Now about massclaim, tally:



Unknow - Erratus Apathos

AGAINST - Goatrevolt Potates

AGAINST - Huntress PlaysWithSquirrels

Unknow - RandomGem humscunter

FOR - ClockworkRuse

FOR - crywolf20084

AGAINST - springlullaby

FOR - militant


EA and Humscumter needs to make up their minds.

I still think massclaim could have waited another day, but seeing that Clock is saying that he is claiming no matter what, and that the only two people beside me that are against massclaim so far are people I suspect, I will switch my vote in two days if the issues is still undecided.

[Erratus Apathos]

And then the doc knows who to protect. I'm willing to bet there's a doc, given last night's kill.

If indeed there was a doc protect last night then I guess the doc already knows who to protect. By exposing other possible targets aren't you making it more difficult for the doc to know who to protect and easier for the scum to avoid the doc-protect?

The doc doesn't know whether scum will target the same person tonight as last night. Protecting a power role is almost always better than trying to outguess the scum.

I don't remember anyone supporting massclaim for flavor lynching.

How about these?

I like the idea of a mass claim because you can catch someone with the flavor.

I think we may just be able to work out who is scum based solely on flavour.

Crywolf, Militant: do you still think flavor lynching is a good idea, given that it got a false positive on Gremwell? Would you support massclaim without flavor lynching?

Why are we planning on mass claiming? I don't think it's a very good idea.

1. We haven't outed any power roles yet. Mass claiming will be sure to do that for us.

And then the doc knows who to protect. I'm willing to bet there's a doc, given last night's kill.

If this were in any sense true, then town would mass claim day 1 in every single game. There are reasons this doesn't happen.

Yeah, because the town doesn't know if there's a doc D1.

The reason this is completely flawed is that a single mafia roleblocker can completely invalidate absolutely everything you just said. They block the doc and kill whomever the doc should be protecting. Even if the mafia don't have a roleblocker, they can kill the doc and then kill the other power roles later on.

Then massclaim where doc claims vanilla.

Erratus Apathos: your defense of me is starting to ping my scumdar, as your avoidance of restating your case on Goat.

I still don't see any good reason to believe Jebus would switch his vote onto you if you were scum with him. How have I avoided stating my case on Goat? That's pretty much all I've talked about today before massclaim came up. Also I've argued clearly for massclaim.

[militant]

I still think massclaim could have waited another day, but seeing that Clock is saying that he is claiming no matter what, and that the only two people beside me that are against massclaim so far are people I suspect, I will switch my vote in two days if the issues is still undecided.

I suppose, I said For because I could do it and because I dare say I have the only role of it's kind in this game but I didn't really give much though towards whether it would be good today.

[Goatrevolt]

Goatrevolt, I think your reaction is kinda too defensive too early, which is quite scummy: I haven't made a case against you yet. Guilty conscience at play?

Ah, the ol' attack me then call me scummy for defending myself strategy. This is completely meaningless outside of context. Unless you know that I'm the kind of player who is overdefensive as scum, but not as town, this is null. Defending oneself is not scummy. Overdefensive is entirely subjective and entirely based on previous knowledge. You can't call me overdefensive unless you know how I generally defend against attacks as town and then you point out the differences in how I've defended here. Maybe I'm overdefensive compared to how

you

defend yourself, but I don't see how that means anything in terms of

my

alignment.

So, here's the breakdown. You call me scummy for parroting you. I defend myself and turn the tables back on you. You ignore my response and any questions I presented to you, instead simply opting to call me scummy for being overdefensive. It's a nice way to keep suspicion on me without having to actually engage me or maintain solid logic, though, I will give you that.

I still think massclaim could have waited another day, but seeing that Clock is saying that he is claiming no matter what, and that the only two people beside me that are against massclaim so far are people I suspect, I will switch my vote in two days if the issues is still undecided.

I don't know if this is scummy or just ridiculous. You push against mass claim, two people agree with you, those people become people you suspect, and now you're opposed to mass claim as a result. You certainly weren't very strong in that opinion.

The fact that clockwork is claiming no matter what has zero relevance as to whether or not everyone should claim. Using that as a reason to go along with mass claim is faulty.

I assume clockwork is claiming because he has a reason to. Either he has information he needs to share with the town, or a role he wants public for some reason. That is perfectly fine. Why does that mean that everyone needs to claim? We've already seen that flavor is a point against mass claiming. Making information public is not pro-town right now. We get a small amount of information now, at the cost of giving scum complete knowledge on how to play. I'd rather wait, leave the scum in the dark, and let our power roles do their jobs longer before coming out with it.

All we are doing is outing power roles for no gain. If these power roles have information to benefit the town, they can just claim like clockwork is going to do! Why are we prematurely outing them?

---------

Springlullaby: I want to hear your response to the questions I asked you.

[Huntress]

Huntress, I think your defense is okay on the reasonable level, but you see, I still think you are very high probability scum for the reasons I described.

I'd still like to see your responses to the points I made and the questions I asked you there.

And your attack on clockwork is pretty scummy too, because from where I sit, his push for massclaim is pretty protown.

Did you actually read my case against Clockwork? This is a textbook example of a strawman here.

Here I expect you to say something about my contradicting myself, and I'm going to pre-emptively answer you that this kind of argument show linear logic, which is very often indicative of scum, in line with Goatrevolt's accusation: sometimes town people are of a diverging opinion, it doesn't impede them from appearing town while expressing it.

Trying to put words into my mouth and pretending to answer them isn't going to fool anyone. I'd rather you just answered the questions I

have

asked.

Also, I'm noting your accusations of rolefishing, not that they holds ground (btw, 'informed minority' means scum), I think they are not in line with your play. In clear, I think that by accusing me of rolefishing you hope to subconsciously hint at you being a powerrole, but you see, I don't think any kind of town powerrole would have made the wishy-washy answer you first made in regard to massclaim.

No, I was purely and simply accusing you of role-fishing. In fact, your words here look like yet another attempt at it. Is the failure to get a result one of your reasons for being willing to agree to a mass claim after all?

[ClockworkRuse]

D=

V/LA

For the time being. This is going to hinder things a bit. I'm going to have minimal access for the next few days. Maybe an hour tops.

I'll try to stay as active as I can here.

[Ythill]

The vote count hasn't changed, but I'll post it for reference anyway. I've been slow on prodding this week because it's finals week for many people, but deadline is in four days and I'll probably be sending out some prods soon.

The Tally

1 ~ Goatrevolt (Erratus Apathos)
1 ~ Huntress (springlullaby)
1 ~ ClockworkRuse (Huntress)

Not voting: Goatrevolt, RandomGem, ClockworkRuse, crywolf20084, militant

D3 Prods: Huntress (1); springlullaby (1); militant (1); crywolf20084 (1); RandomGem (1).
Automatic Deadline: Monday, December 15 at 18:00 MST (GMT -7).

[Erratus Apathos]

Well we don't really have time to massclaim today. We need to focus on today's lynch.

I'm still happy with Goat lynch but will change over to Huntress if necessary.

[springlullaby]

Why would you switch to Huntress?

I'm too lazy to reply to Huntress or Goat right now. For the record Goat's response is scummy.

[crywolf20084]

Okay slowly getting back up to speed. With Exams all next week catch up is going to be slow. One thing that I saw that I want to adress now.

Crywolf, Militant: do you still think flavor lynching is a good idea, given that it got a false positive on Gremwell? Would you support massclaim without flavor lynching?

No I don't support flavor lynching..usually. This sounds WIFOM-y but I swear that my role is a Powder Monkey and that it's the equivillent to a vanilla towine. I still don't know how to respond to the fact that Gremwell did come out as a Vanilla Sailor.

As for flavor lynching after the mass claim, I think that it probably would happen, but with four days til the deadline, I think that the mass claim will most likely be held off till then.

[springlullaby]

You know what, I didn't realize the deadline was so near. And the lack of activity just sucks so much it hurts.

EA answer quickly please, I want to see if I can trust you.

Then I'll make a big post on things and stuff.

[ClockworkRuse]

Requesting Deadline extension for claiming.

[Ythill]

Requesting Deadline extension for claiming.

"More time, says ye! Aaaaaarrrrrgh, ye be the lubbers who made me shoot me dear parrot! Same lubbers 'at hung one'a me best sailors! There'll be no more time fer ye.

Now gets ta hangin'. Ye knows a slack line stirs me temper!

RandomGem has been prodded. If he does not post within 24 hours, he will be replaced.

[Goatrevolt]

Right now I'm reading that Huntress, Clockwork, Crywolf, and Militant are town, and I don't want to lynch any of those.

Springlullaby I'm iffy on. I really want to hear her response to the questions I posed to her, and not the continued dodging. Either way, I'm not confident enough here to want to lynch her today, and I'd only vote to do so if it came down to her against one of the people I have as town.

That leaves Erratus and Random Gem. I'm willing at this point to lynch either of those.

I think Erratus' jump on me early in the day made sense, but since then he has used some pretty poor logic to stretch his case into more than it was. I also think his logic for wanting to mass claim is really poor. I would expect a better logical argument from him, which leads me to believe that he is supporting mass claim either because it benefits scum or it allows him to easily fit in with the town, not because of the logical merits of doing so.

Lynching RandomGem kind of sucks because he has provided us with nothing all game (as either player), so we don't have much to go off of from his lynch specifically. However, he needs to be lynched for lurking at some point, as he is a huge liability to town in endgame regardless of his alignment. I think there's a decent shot he's scum as well, simply based on process of elimination. I'll wait and see what happens with the replacement first, though.

Vote Erratus Apathos

[Erratus Apathos]

Why would you switch to Huntress?

I'm not sold by her explanation for Jebus's vote on you yesterday not being dangerous.

Right now I'm reading that Huntress, Clockwork, Crywolf, and Militant are town, and I don't want to lynch any of those.

Springlullaby I'm iffy on. I really want to hear her response to the questions I posed to her, and not the continued dodging. Either way, I'm not confident enough here to want to lynch her today, and I'd only vote to do so if it came down to her against one of the people I have as town.

That leaves Erratus and Random Gem. I'm willing at this point to lynch either of those.

I think Erratus' jump on me early in the day made sense, but since then he has used some pretty poor logic to stretch his case into more than it was. I also think his logic for wanting to mass claim is really poor. I would expect a better logical argument from him, which leads me to believe that he is supporting mass claim either because it benefits scum or it allows him to easily fit in with the town, not because of the logical merits of doing so.

Lynching RandomGem kind of sucks because he has provided us with nothing all game (as either player), so we don't have much to go off of from his lynch specifically. However, he needs to be lynched for lurking at some point, as he is a huge liability to town in endgame regardless of his alignment. I think there's a decent shot he's scum as well, simply based on process of elimination. I'll wait and see what happens with the replacement first, though.

Vote Erratus Apathos

People, Goat is definitely scum. He begins by calling everyone who might vote for him town. RG is AWOL and I'm definitely voting for Goat, but everyone else could potentially vote for him - so he calls them all townies. He even calls springlullaby a bad lynch, despite nothing changing since his day-long attack on her. Clear attempt to buddy up.

Goat calls spring a bad lynch because he's not convinced and wants to hear more from her. Basically, he just wants to put off her lynch. That makes some sense - until you realize that it'd make a lot more sense to put off a lynch of RG for the same reasons. With nothing on him and an impending replacement, it's nonsense that he'd cast aside his springlullaby case for "continued dodging" but support a flaker lynch today.

And his case against me is pretty much just the phrase "poor logic" written over and over. For someone talking about poor logic that much, he conveniently avoids showing any flaws in it. That's not just poor logic, that's scum logic.

[Goatrevolt]

People, Goat is definitely scum. He begins by calling everyone who might vote for him town. RG is AWOL and I'm definitely voting for Goat, but everyone else could potentially vote for him - so he calls them all townies. He even calls springlullaby a bad lynch, despite nothing changing since his day-long attack on her. Clear attempt to buddy up.

I'm calling people town who I think are town. I can go through and explain why for each player, if it is necessary.

As for Springlullaby, I'm not sold on her right now, which is why I want to hear her response to me. Either she continues to dodge and I vote her, or she gives an answer, and I can evaluate it. I think she's a bad lynch today because I don't have a clear read yet, but I would rather lynch her than the people I have as town.

Goat calls spring a bad lynch because he's not convinced and wants to hear more from her. Basically, he just wants to put off her lynch. That makes some sense - until you realize that it'd make a lot more sense to put off a lynch of RG for the same reasons. With nothing on him and an impending replacement, it's nonsense that he'd cast aside his springlullaby case for "continued dodging" but support a flaker lynch today.

That's why I'm voting you. Did you not read my post? I said I was going to hold off on RG until we hear about the replacement situation.

And his case against me is pretty much just the phrase "poor logic" written over and over. For someone talking about poor logic that much, he conveniently avoids showing any flaws in it. That's not just poor logic, that's scum logic.

Read through my posts today. I've repeatedly pointed out where your logic has failed. This shouldn't be a surprise.

[Ythill]

Morgan guides the ship into the shoals of un unchartered island off the coast of Haiti. There, on the barren shore, he roughly deposits RandomGem who has been of little use. Fortunately another pirate, previously marooned by another ship, is already waiting on the shore.

The newcomer looks thin and a little grimy, but he's obviously learned whatever lesson his former captain put him there to learn, and Morgan feels he'll be a dutiful crewman.

"Welcome Xtxom aboard, lads," the captain snarls as he helps the new guy over the rail.

Xtoxm replaces RandomGem, effective immediately.

[Xtoxm]

Ahoy, me matey's!

[Huntress]

Ahoy tharr, Xtoxm! Welcome aboard

And the lack of activity just sucks so much it hurts.

I find this amusing considering it's your responses we're waiting for.

[ClockworkRuse]

I think we can't role claim yet. I can't believe I didn't realize this sooner.

I doubt that there is a doctor. I was going to save this for claiming, but maybe it will be better if I just claim and give what I know out now.

First of all; I am the First Mate. I have an investigative role that allows me to see the roles but not the powers or alignments of other players, happens once per night.

Last night, the Scum tried to recruit me. I denied it. I was also roleblocked last night, maybe something to do with the recruitment thing. Anyways, that might explain why there was no kill. A kill plus a recruit would be minus two townies a night, that would break the game. So I'm thinking scum can either kill or recruit.

I investigated crywolf last night but I was blocked.

I'm going to save my other investigation until that person claims.

I'm going against the mass claim now though. We may not have a doctor and that would really mess everything up.

[Ythill]

Though it's possible to take a cat nap in the rigging, you've been on watch and more-or-less awake for almost three weeks. Looking sleepy himself, the captain can barely lift his leg onto the rail.

"Get crackin," the old man says with a yawn. "Me bunk's callin."

Deadline hits in just under 16 hours.

[Huntress]

Unvote
Vote: Erratus Apathos

while I think about Clockwork's claim.