Mini Theme 2312| Blood on the Clocktower: Sects & Violets | Village are Doomed!

[atsi]

the "you win when there are only 2 players alive" in the minion and demon role pms is very confusing to me, isn't the wincon just the demon survives until endgame? and why doesn't the game end when there are 2 town/2 scum? do the minion and demon not know each other?

If there's 2 town and 2 scum, town can still win if there are dead townies that still can vote.

[atsi]

If Demon created this way, deaths this night are arbitrary.

??

Arbitrary meaning the mod just decides who dies that night.

i assume this means the investigatives would get random results?

Not random, just false. So if you know there's a a Vortox in play you know that your info must not be true.

[atsi]

Pointless night wagon? Count me in!

VOTE: AniX

[atsi]

I also townslipped in 50 do you think that was fake

Seems like a not very difficult thing to fake as scum, so I say NAI

[atsi]

Feel like probably not but it's weird that the game starts at night if there's nothing like, special about it.

Lots of night actions may or may not have happened. You should read the list of roles in 2.

[atsi]

This game feels like a puzzle

Got any puzzle pieces for us?

[atsi]

Really. Where is everyone?

Talking with their neighbours maybe?

[atsi]

Hey. HEY.

What're your reads, dude.

Here they are:

[atsi]

Ok, Random Nurse is definitely poisoned or drunk, which actually is very good information. It indicates one of the following situations is true:

Do you have some information that proves Random Nurse is town? Assuming you are town, I don't see how you can rule out the possibility that Random Nurse is simply lying.

Philosopher named Artist, perhaps thinking the Artist is a power rule to get (this is a very common mindset. I don't really agree because one question doesn't really do much), said Artist and, since Artist is in game, named Artist.

No reason for Philosopher to be shy if this is the case, they don't have any role anymore.

What do you mean by this?

[atsi]

Oh, I guess I should mention I'm (currently unflipped) Snake Charmer, so there is a non-0% chance Enchant would interpret that as "working for the forces of evil" since I COULD change alignments at some point, but if he did that I'd be pretty pissed with that interpretation to be honest. At any rate, I'm not really a huge town asset anyway so no big loss killing me today.

If that's really the case, I'm gonna be pretty mad at the mod after this game...

@Mod has a modding mistake been made?

[atsi]

I actually forgot my role is a must and not a may so I didn't submit since the role is a little tricky to play wincon-wise (from my current wincon, it doesn't make sense for me to random choose people, since one could be a demon which is bad for my current wincon, even if my wincon changes immediately, I am making the initial choice as a townie). Enchant just had my role do nothing, which technically shouldn't be allowed since, again, must not may, but I suppose it can be coded as just a self-target.

This makes no sense. Randomly checking someone is much better than doing nothing since 6 times out of 7 you gain very valuable info.

[atsi]

You don't want to be demon that badly that you'd rather just be a vt?

[atsi]

VOTE: AniX

[atsi]

I think my wincon requires me to practice more care in taking that risk such that I don't make choices based on a whim, which is what a n1 choice would have been.

That seems like a very anti-town thing to do, assuming you're telling the truth. You even mentioned yourself how important information is in this game..

[atsi]

No, it doesn't "explode the town." Like Infinity just pointed out, it's obvious when it happens because the previous demon is always gonna claim.

[atsi]

Like if you think I'm lying about being Snake Charmer, we should be killing me. If you think I am actually the Snake Charmer, we should still be killing me.

True, but I would still like to get a better idea of which alignment you are to help solve the overall game rather than just the question of who gets executed today.

[atsi]

so we should probably have 2 more people vote and 3 more people nominate, ideally split between the voters and nonvoters yeah?

Yeah, 5 votes on AniX seems best. Not sure about nominating since there could be a witch.

[atsi]

It explodes the town by rendering all previous information potentially moot because an alignment/role shift has occurred. Flower Girls and Two Crier math no longer works, Clockmakers are irrelevant, Dreamers/Seamstresses have to start over/lose out if they are dead, Savants don't know if what they were told still is accurate, Artists might lose any value from their question depending on what they asked...

You realize most of those examples only work after the first night has already taken place? Flowergirl and town crier are N2+, and Savant and Artist happen during the day. Those shouldn't have factored into your decision on using your ability on the first night.

[atsi]

mm yeah maybe we could have people we consider scummy nominate? not sure who that is even

Well, we got like 5 more irl days to scumhunt for them!

[atsi]

AniX is most likely minion and not demon in my mind (if they are demon, I guess we'll find out) so I guess town crier is really only useful in the worst-case scenario where AniX is a mislim. But it's probably still worth it I think.

[atsi]

I'm not saying I'm the Juggler or anything, but suppose, hypothetically, that I am the Juggler, here are my guesses:
Infinity is Fang Gu
Infinity is Vigormortis
Infinity is No Dashii
Infinity is Vortox
Infinity is Cerenovus

[atsi]

It has to be different players?

[atsi]

I'm not saying I know specifically how the Juggler works, but you do have to guess (up to) 5 different

players

. So, I believe technically Vander and Atsi's guesses would only be for the first guess of each player?

I assumed it worked like in actual BotC, but the way the mod worded does make it seem like that. The way it's worded in the official BotC rules allows for duplicate players and roles.

@Mod can we get a ruling here?

[atsi]

Maybe AniX should nom someone? If they die to witch its fine since they are about to die anyway, and it confirms the presence of the witch.

[atsi]

I'll vote to end day after AniX noms someone

[atsi]

I think tomorrow will be different since we'll have a lot more info

[atsi]

VOTE: End Day

[atsi]

I've never played in a game where the dead can still talk, so this is mighty confusing.

Also, I'm basically confTown Artist who punched Scum's ticket.

Are there any other Cop-like abilities that can check for the remaining Scum?

I reckon Anix will be against yeeting his partner, so we'll have to see where he moves this game. Also, can the dead still vote?

Read 1 and 2

[atsi]

Uh huh. So you're claiming I lied as the Artist or that I was somehow made Drunk or Poisoned, and you're saying Anix wasn't working for the forces of Evil?

I highly doubt that. You're either the Minion or the Demon.

VOTE: Vanderscamp

They just said they think there's a Vortox.

[atsi]

Then yeah please target me HPE.

Don't. We have 4 days to decide. Wait until we have more info.

[atsi]

He's basically saying that I lied about using my Artist ability on Anix (getting a guilty on Anix) and saying that "oh, both Scum still exist," so either he's saying my result was compromised by the Poison/Drunk ability or he's implying I lied, which I do NOT.

Perhaps you should reread what they said...

[atsi]

Infinity isn't even claiming to be the good twin, which seems very strange.

[atsi]

@Vabderscamp could AniX or PiggyGal back you up on the twin claim? You never claimed publicly yesterday.

[atsi]

OK so Vortox is a BS role.

And so since Night 1 there wasn't a kill it likely means there's a Vortox?

None of the demons can kill on n1

[atsi]

wait if you lim me and the game doesn't end isn't vander confirmed lying? i assume the evil twin info isn't affected by vortox

Why would the game end? Vortox would still be alive assuming Vanderscamp is telling the truth.

[atsi]

I trust Hu Tao so I think that's a good pick.

[atsi]

Hu Tao/atsi, claims?
At must kill I think we should have all info on the table

Mathematician. First night I got a 0, second night a 1. I think this means that the demon is either No Dashii or Vortox.

Unless I'm missing something, the ways that abilities can work abnormally is:

• No Dashii. Their town neighbours would have to be one that used their ability D1 or N2, and one that hasn't been affected by the poison yet, for my 1 to make sense.

• Vortox. I don't think I can rule this out mechanically with the info we have now, but since AniX is so scummy, this seems a lot less likely than No Dashii in my mind.

• Vigormortis killing their minion. That would make Erinys the minion, and Infinity would be poisoned. This can be ruled out, since this would mean AniX wasn't the minion and Random Nurse is lying, and Vanderscamp would be lying about being twin. Erinys/Nurse/Vanderscamp can't all be scum and I don't think there's a reason for one to lie as town.

• Snake Charmer hitting the demon. Ruled out since if AniX did become the demon N1, there wouldn't have been a kill on N2.

• Philosopher choosing a role that's in the game. Hu Tau has told me her role and it isn't Philosopher, and everyone else has claimed publicly, so for a Philosopher to exist there has to be a Cerenovus making someone Mad about being another town role. This means AniX wasn't the minion since Cerenovus would have to still be alive, and that means Random Nurse info is false and my 1 doesn't make sense. So I think this can be ruled out.

• Sweetheart dying. For Sweetheart to exist, there also has to be a Cerenovus alive. So this can be ruled out the same way as the Philosopher case.

[atsi]

@Mod I have some mechanics questions:

1. If an ability isn't working due to poison/drunkness, but they receive true information anyway, would this still count as their ability working abnormally?
   
2. Is the Juggler allowed to change their guesses during the day?

[atsi]

I guess things don't really add up if Vanderscamp is No Dashii. If both PiggyGal and Random Nurse are poisoned, I would have gotten a 2 unless Random Nurse got true info despite being poisoned. And if AniX is town and got poisoned that means Random Nurse also got poisoned or drunk somehow?

[atsi]

@Mod I have some mechanics questions:

1. If an ability isn't working due to poison/drunkness, but they receive true information anyway, would this still count as their ability working abnormally?
   
2. Is the Juggler allowed to change their guesses during the day?

1. I need context to answer this one.
2. Yes.

Example: A Juggler is poisoned from being next to a No Dashii, and makes one correct guess on the first day. At night they are told "1". Would this still count as abnormal for Mathematician?

[atsi]

I have thoughts on this that I'll share after hu tao claims

Why wait until Hu Tao claims?

[atsi]

I did a BOTC quiz about a month ago, I'm not sure what Enchant's ruling is for this game but in general the answer is no, if a poisoned/drunk player gets correct info that doesn't count for mathematician.

Yeah, that's how I understand it also. But I'd still like confirmation from the mod just to make sure.

[atsi]

I guess things don't really add up if Vanderscamp is No Dashii. If both PiggyGal and Random Nurse are poisoned, I would have gotten a 2 unless Random Nurse got true info despite being poisoned. And if AniX is town and got poisoned that means Random Nurse also got poisoned or drunk somehow?

Artist is a day ability and would never show up for a mathematician.

I think the only way I'm no dachi is if Anix is minion and Random got true information about Anix despite being poisoned, which is possible but I'd argue very unlikely

https://wiki.bloodontheclocktower.com/Mathematician

Here it says since dawn, so if an ability worked abnormally D1 it would affect the count I get on N2.

[atsi]

Yeah, I guess you can't actually be No Dachii then since Both PiggyGal Juggler info and Random Nurse Artist info are true in that case. I can't really think of a way that Hu Tao could get drunk/poisoned if you're the No Dachii.

[atsi]

I'd still like to hear from Infinity before voting. Maybe there's a flaw somewhere in our logic.

[atsi]

Vanderscamp do you think there's a point in Hu Tao claiming now vs tomorrow? If not, I guess it's best to give scum as little info as possible.

[atsi]

That I don't know.

Is it not possible he could be the Minion and lying?

Please tell us how

[atsi]

I'm going to take a break from this game for a little bit. Getting a headache again.

When will you be back?

[atsi]

Does it make sense to go for the demon today instead of Infinity? If we ml today then we still get another shot at the demon tomorrow.

We are 6 alive now, so after ml and night kill we're 4 tomorrow. If we get the demon tomorrow there's no night kill and we are 3 the day after because no night kill.

If we instead get Infinity then we are 4 tomorrow, but we won't have an ml then since demon will kill someone.

[atsi]

From my POV, Anix is confirmed good.

I know this because I'm the good twin and I know infinity is the evil twin.
So for Anix to be evil, they have to be the demon specifically, because the minion is already accounted for, but this is not possible because there was a kill last night.



So if Anix is evil, I'm also evil, everyone else is confirmed good, and I would have to be the demon.

If I'm the demon, I have to be no dashi or vortox based on atsi's mathematician info because no one has claimed a power that drunks people (according to what atsi has said about hu tao) and fang gu and vigormortis don't have the ability to poison people. Vigormortis does, but I obviously didn't kill my minion last night so this is impossible.

Vortox can be ruled out because multiple townsfolk (all townsfolk?) are getting correct information about the evil team.


So I would have to be specifically no dashi, but this doesn't work from the mathematician info either based on my previous post.

Sorry but I'm not sure I understand this part. How can we rule out you being the Vortox?

[atsi]

I think we always vote in infinity and Vander today it's 50/50.

It seems kinda risky since if we ml Vanderscamp we just lose, and if we ml Infinity we end up in an F4 with both minion and demon and we just auto-lose if Vanderscamp is the demon.

[atsi]

Isn't there confirmed scum in the 2 or am I misunderstanding

Yes, but I think Vanderscamp is off the table due to the twin claim, at least for now when we have an ml. And Infinity is confirmed to not be the demon.

[atsi]

I think we always vote in infinity and Vander today it's 50/50.

It seems kinda risky since if we ml Vanderscamp we just lose, and if we ml Infinity we end up in an F4 with both minion and demon and we just auto-lose if Vanderscamp is the demon.

oh wait how do we win an f4 with 2 scum

Dead people can still vote, but only once.

[atsi]

VOTE: Infinity

No explanation?

[atsi]

He is saying that in a world where I am evil and Vander is evil, the Vortox cannot exist because two people pegged me as evil (Infinity and RN). In a worldview where I am evil, that information is CORRECT and they would only be able to receive it if a Vortox is not in play.

Makes sense. I thought Vanderscamp was saying we could completely rule out them being a Vortox, which isn't true.

[atsi]

VOTE: Infinity

No explanation?

Is one needed? In a fight between Vander vs Infinity on which one I believe is the good twin vs evil twin, I think Infinity is evil.

I would still like an explanation. Also, do you disagree about what I said about it not being a good idea to execute either one of them today?

[atsi]

A lot has been said since your last post. Do you really not have any thoughts about any of that other than Infinity being scum?

[atsi]

VOTE: Infinity

No explanation?

Is one needed? In a fight between Vander vs Infinity on which one I believe is the good twin vs evil twin, I think Infinity is evil.

If you think Infinity is the minion, who do you think the demon is?

[atsi]

Kind of? Even if we do execute the demon today instead, we still can't win and there won't be any confirmation that we killed the demon (other than oracle getting a "no" instead? Would there be any other ways to confirm that don't involve relying on one of the twins?)

There would be no more night kills if we execute the demon.

if we eliminate the demon we win

Yeah but that's only fypov. If there are twins we'd have to execute the Evil Twin also in order to win.

[atsi]

So there has to be another town role that got info N0 for my 0 to make sense with a Vortox? That would only be possible with a Cerenovus making that role Mad, and would mean that fmpov Vanderscamp is scum since there would be no twins.

[atsi]

I feel like because ny own ability would give false info with a Vortox, being told a 0 is therefore false?

[atsi]

Yay

[atsi]

@Mod could you confirm this publicly also?

[atsi]

Does anyone know what Hu Tao's "everyone read their role PM correctly" info could mean? Since we've established that there's a Vortox, someone must have read theirs incorrectly.

I think if no one admits to having read their role PM incorrectly, I guess we can conclude that either a scum read it incorrectly or Hu Tao is scum.

[atsi]

Does anyone know what Hu Tao's "everyone read their role PM correctly" info could mean? Since we've established that there's a Vortox, someone must have read theirs incorrectly.

I think if no one admits to having read their role PM incorrectly, I guess we can conclude that either a scum read it incorrectly or Hu Tao is scum.

Or someone read their PM wrong and still doesn't realize they read it wrong?

Then they should probably realize it after reading Hu Tao's claim and checking their role PM again.

Do you think this info could refer to you, since you thought Snake Charmer's ability was optional? That feels like a bit of a stretch, but I could kinda see it.

[atsi]

@Mod could you confirm this publicly also?

What i should confirm?

How Mathematician and Vortox would interact. If a Mathematician gets a 0 on the first night and there is a Vortox, does this mean that some other role besides the Mathematician must have had their ability work abnormally?

[atsi]

Day 1
1. AniX is poisoned
2. There is a Mutant in the play.

Day 2

1. Everyone read their Role PM correctly

2. Demon are Vigormortis

@Random Nurse do you know what this could mean? We know there's a Vortox so unless Hu Tao is lying all this info must be false. Would the mod have a reason to think you read your role PM wrong?

[atsi]

I'm probably gonna vote PiggyGal here anyway, but if we can confirm that someone did read their role PM wrong it would give me a lot more confidence in that vote.

[atsi]

We should probably consider candidates outside of the Twin binary.

Yeah. Infinity is conf not demon, and Vanderscamp is too risky when we have a ml. So fmpov that leaves Hu Tao and PiggyGal.

[atsi]

I'm finding it so difficult to play this game without any tangible flips.

Can you answer my question a few posts up?

[atsi]

I think voting in the 50/50 is better

Why?

[atsi]

I have been prodded, so here is a post.

I still think Infinity is the best option right now with the info we have.

That being said, I won't be getting any further info with my ability, so if it comes down to it, I don't mind being mislynched to avoid losing to a no execution.

Why do you think Infinity is the best option?
Infinity is confirmed to not be the demon, unless it's both Infinity and Vanderscamp which I kinda doubt.

[atsi]

Okay then I'd personally like to go in the confirmed scum pool of 2 then.

I think I've already explained why I think this is a bad idea and I'm just repeating myself here but:

Infinity is pretty much confirmed to not be the demon. And if there are twins, it's much better to deal with that after we've deal with the demon. If we vote Infinity now we only have one shot at voting the demon tomorrow, whereas if we go for the demon we have 2 attempts before we have to deal with the twins.

Vanderscamp is the better option of the two, but since we lose immediately if we are wrong on that, I think we should only consider that tomorrow when it's lylo.

[atsi]

I think voting in the 50/50 is better

patently false on many levels

This statement is patently false, there are advantages and disadvantages to both methods.
The reasons it might be better to do the 50/50 are that I think it's pretty obvious, while the demon pool isn't obvious. Killing infinity might also help provide info on who the demon is based on subsequent info.
I don't feel super strongly about either side being better

I feel like from your point of view the ideal thing to do would be to take two shots at the demon and then vote Infinity, rather than vote Infinity now and then only have one shot? The advantages of going with Infinity here seems pretty minor compared to the massive disadvantage of shortening the game by a day.

[atsi]

VOTE: PiggyGal15

[atsi]

if this is a demon there's no more nks so y'all can just lim me and vander and win right?

This seems like a slip. Town normally wins when there's no demon, unless there's an Evil Twin.

[atsi]

You forgot your own wincon?

[atsi]

I got a 1. Since it counts the previous day, this would make sense if Hu Tao is Savant. So my info neither confirms or denies a possible nokill gambit.

[atsi]

We hit the demon

I got a 0

Shouldn't you get a 1 if the demon is dead?

[atsi]

The demon does not have to kill.

[atsi]

Yeah but the demon can just choose a player that's already dead.

[atsi]

I am so confused with this game right now.

Vanderscamp, how does your ability work and can we be certain it's a clear guilty on Infinity?

You can read how all the roles work here: 2

[atsi]

Why am I not surprised that the demon no killed. Believe me or don't, but I am not the demon, we've still got 2 scum.

So who do you think is scum then?

[atsi]

We could execute both Infinity and then Vanderscamp the next day, but then there's a chance that we lose if Vanderscamp is the minion and the demon is still alive. (I guess that demon would be Hu Tao fmpov)

[atsi]

I think we should hold off on voting. We don't have info from Hu Tao yet.

[atsi]

Vanderscamp's 0 makes no sense to me. If PiggyGal was the Vortox, Vanderscamp would have gotten a 1, but if PiggyGal was not the Vortox then 0 scum are dead which means 0 is impossible with Vortox. So I think Vanderscamp is just outed scum?

[atsi]

Sorry, I did get a 1, when I read the PM I registered it in my head as "this means the demon is dead" and then forgot what the actual number was.
I know that sounds terrible and I might have fucked it but that's what happened

Could you maybe elaborate on this? You forgot what the actual number was, so you just made one up instead of going back to check the PM again? Where is this 0 coming from?

[atsi]

No, I misremembered what the number was.
I saw the PM in my emails like an hour before I posted and had it in my head (incorrectly) that it confirmed piggy was the demon.

How? This makes no sense.

[atsi]

I guess the argument is he mentally was doing the calculation in the reverse direction: "There are 0 demons left alive"

Huuuuuuuuuuh?

Oracle counts dead scum, not alive demons. So Vanderscamp not only forgot the number they got in their PM, but also what their role does, while also somehow having incorrectly concluded that PiggyGal must be demon from their pov?

[atsi]

VOTE: Vanderscamp

[atsi]

I woke up and looked at my emails and saw a result that in my mind thought made piggy the demon, which was wrong.

Could you explain the thought process that lead you to that conclusion?

[atsi]

I think if the demon isn't piggy it's atsi because I don't think I buy reading me as scum here

Your information literally confirms you as scum, and then upon realizing this you try to change it. Forgetting a single digit number that can only be a 0 or a 1 after just an hour just seems very unlikely to me.

[atsi]

Also, if I'm evil, there's no evil twin in play and there's some other minion, right?

What do you think the minion is, and why would an evil team that includes me sink a kill last night?

Yes, the minion can't be Evil Twin because you are the only one saying there is one. At least one town would know about there being an Evil Twin if there was one.

The idea with not killing last night would be to get Infinity mislimmed today, and then somehow win the lylo the next day. I most likely would have voted Infinity if you hadn't outed yourself.

[atsi]

Well, there goes my theory of PiggyGal being the minion with Vanderscamp. That would make the first Savant statement true which is impossible with Vortox alive. I guess for Vanderscamp to be scum it has to be with Hu Tao or Infinity, but both of those pairs seem kinda unlikely.

[atsi]

I really don't think it's Hu Tao, so I guess I'm fine with executing Infinity now and then Vanderscamp tomorrow if the game hasn't ended.

[atsi]

VOTE: Infinity324

[atsi]

gonna be real with you guys this game makes no fucking sense anymore lmao

What doesn't make sense?

[atsi]

Oh boy. I have a juicy savant today.

1. There is four Townsfolk alive.
2. Atsi and Random Nurse are not aligned

OK what does this mean?

Vanderscamp just explained that in 663

[atsi]

Are we allowed to unvote? If so I want to unvote.

PLEASE go and read 1 and 2. All the mechanics are explained there.

14. Voting - You must nominate player before voting them by NOMINATE: PLAYER or plainly use VOTE: Player tag to nominate and vote for them automatically.

You cannot unvote but can vote for as many players as you wish.

You can only nominate once per day and only if you are alive. You have one execution vote if you die which you can cast.

[atsi]

THIS.

I am SO confused. I've got NO flips, the dead are talking, I've got NOTHING but my result on Anix, and apparently that may or may not be reliable due to other abilities in play.

FFS I just need something tangible to work with here. Otherwise it's Day 1 all fucking game.

If you would actually read the thread, you would find plenty of tangible things to work with.

[atsi]

Both of the Savant statements can't be true. With no Vortox, one has to be true and the other false, and with Vortox they both have to be false.

[atsi]

So does anyone have a problem with the "vote Infinity today, Vanderscamp tomorrow" plan? I think from everyone's pov the only way we lose with that plan is if Hu Tao is the demon and Vanderscamp is a minion other than Evil Twin.

[atsi]

Isn't Infinity already eliminated and we just need to end the day?

Kinda, unless someone else gets 4 votes.

[atsi]

Kinda worried that scum will tie the vote. So I will wait until it's 4/5 before voting to end day.

[atsi]

I meant 4/5 skip night votes.

[atsi]

And drawing heat doesn't matter since scum just wins if they tie the vote between Infinity/Vanderscamp and then make the final end day vote, assuming Vortox is alive.

[atsi]

Hu Tao do you have a reason for not voting Infinity?

[atsi]

still don't get why scum would tie the vote

Vortox automatically wins if no one is executed.

[atsi]

VOTE: end day

[atsi]

Wait what? Infinity knew they were the good twin but lied about it???

[atsi]

Scum team was really 3 people I guess

[atsi]

Man, I was like 90% sure it was PiggyGal and Vanderscamp, but saw no reason to not execute Infinity first since in my mind they were confirmed to not be the good twin since good twin would have no reason to withhold that info. What an awful way to lose.

[atsi]

I think I even asked everyone to check their role PM again when that Savant info was made public.

[atsi]

I have no idea.

Probably misread Role PM.

Can you double check that you actually sent that info in the role PM?

[atsi]

This should have warranted mod intervention I feel like. "Do not play a game without reading your role PM" is a site-wide rule.