Normal Game Changes (New Year 2024 Update)

[Ausuka]

Normal Game Announcement - Halloween 2023 Update

Hi, everyone! If you didn't know already, I'm the new listmod for the Normal Queue. I'm very happy to take over this role, and I'm hoping to get the chance to improve this queue over time and help this site thrive. In my years on the site, I've enjoyed playing in the Normal Queue a lot, and I've seen it change a lot with the times as well. Particularly in recent years, there's been a shift in the meta of Normal games. People have always enjoyed pushing the boundaries of what is considered 'Normal' and trying to make unique and memorable setups. However, over time, the idea of what's Normal has expanded quite a lot, and the end result is a situation where people signing up for Normal games often don't have a clear idea of the kind of setup they'll be playing. This challenges the original purpose of the Normal queue as a place where people can sign up to play standard and straightforward games. The change hasn't been all negative - some users do enjoy more complex Normals due to their creativity while not diverging from a traditional mechanical structure.

But with the sunsetting of the Newbie queue, I think the problem becomes a lot more important to address. Newbie setups (e.g. NewD3, 2d3, and Matrix6), provided an environment where new players were introduced to the site with a limited set of power roles for them to learn, making the learning curve easier. The Normal Queue will never quite be that, but I think a lot of Normal games don't provide a Newbie friendly experience, even though the Normal queue (along with the Open queue) has now become the entry point for new players. Additionally, there are a lot of more experienced players who would like to know what kind of 'Normal experience' they would be signing up for, if they were to join a game.

Since I became the Normal listmod, I've been thinking and discussing with the Normal Review Group about ways we can address these issues. The result of this is something I'm going to call the Compartment System. There will now be three 'compartments' for Normal game designs.
All Normal games will have to be designed as Simple, Regular, and Complex, and all these compartments have different requirements. This will introduce some complexity on the administrative end, but I think we are capable of handling it. And I think for a new user, the process of signing up for a simple game, checking the wiki link provided by the moderator, and understanding the potential roles that could be in the game will be easier than the current system where we have 53 roles, and many more modifiers (of which roles often have multiple). I think this will also allow players to have a better idea of what they are signing up for when they join a Normal game.

Here's a list of what the intention behind all three compartments is:

Simple

• Roles and modifiers which are basic and easy for new players to understand.
  
• Limited role list for the purposes of simplicity.
  
• A standard game which fulfills the traditional idea of a Normal game.
  
• Absence of Mod WIFOM or curveballs.

Regular

• Roles and modifiers which are straightforward and not too challenging for new players to understand.
  
• Moderate role list to provide a Normal experience.
  
• A standard game which fulfills the modern idea of a Normal game.
  
• Limited Mod WIFOM or curveballs.

Complex

• Roles and modifiers which are fundamentally Normal.
  
• Expansive role list for the purposes of creativity.
  
• A more experimental game which is similar to many complex Normals ran today.
  
• Mod WIFOM or curveballs should be expected.

And here's a detailed list of the new system, which will also be available on the wiki:

Compartment System

Roles which are allowed in Simple games:

Bodyguard, Bulletproof, Doctor, Gunsmith, Jailkeeper, Macho, Neapolitan, Neighborizer, Roleblocker, Rolecop, Tracker, Watcher, Vanilla Cop

Roles which are allowed in Simple games for Town only:

Cop, Friendly Neighbor, Innocent Child (activated by default), Mason, Vigilante

Roles which are allowed in Simple games for Mafia only:

Juggernaut

Modifiers which are allowed in Simple games:

X-shot, Odd-Night/Even-Night, Novice

Simple Rules:

No multiball, meaning only one Mafia faction.
No Serial Killers or any other third party.
The only approved ratios are; 7:2, 10:3, 13:4, 16:5.
Vigilante may not be used in Micro games.
No additional information in the opening posts.

Active Roles which are allowed in Regular games:

Alien, Babysitter, Bodyguard, Commuter, Cop, Detective, Doctor, Fruit Vendor, Gunsmith, Hider, Jack of All Trades, Jailkeeper, Messenger, Motion Detector, Neapolitan, Neighborizer, PT Cop, Reporter, Roleblocker, Rolecop, Rolestopper, Role Watcher, Shield, Tracker, Traffic Analyst, Vanilla, Vanilla Cop, Watcher

Passive Roles which are allowed in Regular games:

Ascetic, Bulletproof, Macho, Neighbor, Universal Backup

Roles which are allowed in Regular games for Town only:

Friendly Neighbor, Mason (passive), Innocent Child (passive), Vigilante

Roles which are allowed in Regular games for Mafia only:

Juggernaut, Ninja

Modifiers which are allowed in Regular games:

Activated, Any Night Specific (Odd-Night, Novice, Night 2, etc), Disloyal, Indecisive, Lazy, Loyal, Non-Consecutive Night, Personal, Weak, X-shot

Regular Rules:

No multiball or Serial Killer in minis, but they are allowed in larges - though they must be announced in signups.
No third party except Serial Killer.
Games may be Micro (7-9 players), Mini (10-13 players) or Large (14+ players). Micro games may have a maximum of 2 mafia, and Mini games a maximum of 3 mafia. Large games have no such limit.

Active Roles which are allowed in Complex games:

Alien, Babysitter, Bodyguard, Checker, Commuter, Cop, Detective, Doctor, Finder, Follower, Fruit Vendor, Gunsmith, Hider, Inspector, Inventor, Jack of All Trades, Jailkeeper, Messenger, Modifier Cop, Motion Detector, Neapolitan, Neighborizer, Ninja, Observer, Psychologist, PT Cop, Reporter, Roleblocker, Rolecop, Role Guard, Rolestopper, Role Watcher, Security Guard, Shield, Strengthener, Tracker, Traffic Analyst, Vanilla Cop, Vigilante, Visionary, Visitor, Watcher

Passive Roles which are explicitly Complex for any alignment include:

Ascetic, Backup, Bulletproof, Enabler, Encryptor, Informed, Macho, Neighbor, Role-Immune, Universal Backup

Roles which are explicitly Complex for Town only include:

Friendly Neighbor, Mason (passive), Miller, Innocent Child (passive), Vengeful

Roles which are explicitly Complex for Mafia only include:

Godfather (passive), Juggernaut, Traitor

Modifiers which are allowed in Complex games include:

Activated, Announcing, Any Night Specific (Odd-Night, Novice, Night 2, etc), Combined, Complex, Compulsive, Disloyal, Indecisive, Lazy, Loud, Loyal, Non-Consecutive Night, Personal, Roaming, Simple, Strongwilled, Weak, X-shot

Experimental Role List

Godfather, Inventor, Modifier Cop, Role-Immune, Strengthener, Strongwilled

Complex Rules:

Serial Killer is allowed in mini games but must be announced. SK in larges does not need to be announced. Multiball is allowed in larges but must be announced. Still no multiball or SK in micros.
No third party except Serial Killer.
Game may be any size and ratio.
Godfather must be announced at gamestart.
-There is a game slot reserved for 'Newbie Friendly' games, meaning Simple or Regular game which is Mini or Micro size.

The Experimental Role List has no substantial affect on gameplay, but indicates roles that are being 'trialed' - they are allowed in Complex games, but this should be expected to change at any time if they are found to have some kind of negative impact on the meta or be poorly suited to Normal games. Ideally, over time, all roles should be removed from the list eventually - either because they are deemed to be appropriate and no longer need to be on the list, or because they are deemed to be inappropriate and removed from Normals altogether. Roles may be added to indicate that certain roles in the Complex compartment are potentially problematic and could be removed in the future, or when totally new roles are added to Normals.

There is some degree of flexibility here - I don't think, if your game contains Regular roles or modifiers, you should be able to run it as Simple, and so on. However, if you want to run a game as more complex than the roles and modifiers would suggest, that's up to the reviewers. I think it's possible to create a game in the Regular system which a reasonable person would classify as Complex, especially if you're actively trying to do so, although I also think the system naturally lends itself to less complex games.

This will also involve minor changes to moderation requirements for Normal games. First-time moderators will not be able to moderate Large or Complex games. They can choose to moderate a Simple or Regular game of Micro or Mini size.

On a practical level, this system will apply to any game which is not already in review. The current backlog of games will go ahead as planned. However, when you /in to mod in the future, the system will apply. Please don't specify which you are choosing publicly - do it privately, in a PM alongside your setup that you are submitting for review. This way, if it is decided to switch your game between compartments during the review process, it won't lead to speculation later.

The most important thing is making sure this site and this queue has a solid foundation to build on for the future, and that's the main goal of this overhaul. This is a subject where many people have strong opinions, but I hope most people will find that this change makes their experience of Normal games better, and that it will help new players to feel welcome on the site. If you have any feedback or questions, please post in this thread or contact me. I'm especially interested in hearing about the experiences of players who have recently joined the site, and how they feel this change affects them.

Thank you for reading,
-Ausuka

Update: Hi - I've made a form which allows players to request new roles and modifiers for the experimental list of Normal games. If you're interested, please fill it out!

[Ausuka]

Wiki

Please use the following links to learn more about new Normal games! They contain a table which is an alternative way to look at which roles and modifiers are available for each game type.

• Normal Game
  
• Simple Normal
  
• Regular Normal
  
• Complex Normal

[Ausuka]

New Roles and Changes

This update has introduced a few new roles to the Normal Queue for Complex games only. Here's a description of how these roles are defined in Normal games.

• Godfather
  - Mafia only. Appears as Town if investigated by a cop. If this role is in the game, it must be announced at the start of the game.
  
• Inventor
  - Can give out certain 1-shot abilities to other players, which are determined during setup design. In most cases, the Inventor can only give out a certain invention once, and it can only be used once. However, if it is an inventor for a specific role, or as a modular role (e.g a Tracker-Inventor) it may give out an invention of that specific role unlimited times.
  
• Modifier Cop
  - Can investigate a player to find what modifiers they have, but not their role or alignment.
  
• Role-Immune
  - Immune to a specific role. If this role targets the Role-Immune player, their action will fail.
  
• Strengthener
  - A role which makes their target's action succeed where it would otherwise fail.
  
• Strongwilled
  - A modifier which makes a role's action succeed where it would otherwise fail.

Additionally, the following changes are being made to Normals from this point onward:

Daytalk is mandatory in all games except Complex.

This change is mostly because, for a long time, daytalk has become almost ubiquitous to the point

not

having daytalk feels increasingly less Normal. It's also something which many players find reduces the amount of fun they have in games if they roll mafia, and there is a risk players may be less likely to join games without daytalk. Depending on feedback for this, we are considering making Daytalk mandatory for all Normal games.

Multitasking must be specified.

Multitasking is no longer a modifier. This change is meant to reduce ambiguity and restore some functionality to roles like Fruit Vendor, which once could confirm themselves in certain situations with one mafia remaining. Instead, all games should specify at gamestart if mafia have multitasking or they don't.

If you have feedback on these changes, please comment about it in this thread. Thank you for playing on Mafiascum, and again I hope these changes can make your experience more enjoyable.

[Ausuka]

Name Changes

Finally, a minor detail - we have changed the names of certain roles. This should have little to no impact on gameplay experience, but may be worth noting anyway. The following changes have taken place:

Mailman -> Messenger
Strongman -> Juggernaut
Voyeur -> Observer

We are considering changing Macho and Godfather in future updates. If you have feedback on this, please feel free to give it in a constructive manner.

[Ausuka]

Also - to be clear, these changes apply to any game entering the Normal Queue going forward. Changes currently in signups are unaffected.

[Ausuka]

Oh - sorry if it wasn't clear, I'll edit the OP to clarify, but mods do have to specify what compartment they use during games and it is revealed when a game enters signups so players can decide what game to join. We don't want that to happen in public when they first enter the queue, to make it so we can switch the compartment in review if that's prudent and it won't lead to speculation later.

[Ausuka]

to be clear, would a Willbooster make an action succeed despite protection (e.g. from Ascetic or Rolestopper?)

if so, that would actually be a Strengthener.

After discussing this privately, I am changing the name of the role Willbooster to 'Strengthener'. The functionality will not change.

[Ausuka]

Multitasking must be specified.

Multitasking is no longer a modifier. This change is meant to reduce ambiguity and restore some functionality to roles like Fruit Vendor, which once could confirm themselves in certain situations with one mafia remaining. Instead, all games should specify at gamestart if mafia have multitasking or they don't.

How does this work with Serial Killers given that something like Multitasking 3-Shot Activated Bulletproof Serial Killer is no longer Normal? Can SK's be multitasking (since they're not mafia), can we have multitasking only for specific multiball factions/serial killers/mafia? If it's a large with an unannounced SK how do we make them multitasking without giving away the existence of a serial killer?

Apologies for any confusion. SKs can in fact be multitasking. In this context, we define multitasking as the ability to use both a personal and factional ability on the same night. Both mafia and SK can do this.

In complex large, the standard text should clarify if non-town players have multitasking. Any other game cannot have a SK unless announced.

[Ausuka]

Regarding role proposals, I don't want to promise anything right now. Something I'm thinking about is a form where users can suggest to add new roles to the experimental list or to move existing roles between compartments. Obviously submitting something doesn't guarantee it's going to get added, but I do want to at least take community feedback into account, to the extent it's possible to get an accurate perception of what the community at large wants.

[Ausuka]

would a Gunsmith see guns on a Modifier Cop, an Inventor capable of giving a power that counts as having a gun, and someone holding an invention that counts as having a gun?

Modifier Cop is a Role Cop variant, and Inventor can give out role powers. The interaction of Inventor being able to millerize someone to a Gunsmith might be undesirable, however.

I'd also assume Inventors should only be able to give inventions that are allowed in Complex Normal games for any alignment (e.g. no Friendly Neighbor or Juggernaut inventions in Normal games, though a Vigilante invention should be fine)

A gunsmith would get a positive result on a modifier cop, as is standard for roles with the Cop suffix.

An inventor has a gun if it gives out powers with a gun.

Someone holding an invention with a gun shows as having a gun after they receive the invention. They will still have the gun after they use the ability, as they are in effect granted a 1-shot ability and a 1-shot cop still has a gun after it uses its role.

[Ausuka]

Also I probably should've asked this a while ago but what happens when a Juggernaut and a Bodyguard target the same person? Does the bodyguard also die or only the target?

Only the target. The bodyguard's action is considered to have failed.

[Ausuka]

Multitasking must be specified.

Multitasking is no longer a modifier. This change is meant to reduce ambiguity and restore some functionality to roles like Fruit Vendor, which once could confirm themselves in certain situations with one mafia remaining. Instead, all games should specify at gamestart if mafia have multitasking or they don't.

How does this work with Serial Killers given that something like Multitasking 3-Shot Activated Bulletproof Serial Killer is no longer Normal? Can SK's be multitasking (since they're not mafia), can we have multitasking only for specific multiball factions/serial killers/mafia? If it's a large with an unannounced SK how do we make them multitasking without giving away the existence of a serial killer?

Apologies for any confusion. SKs can in fact be multitasking. In this context, we define multitasking as the ability to use both a personal and factional ability on the same night. Both mafia and SK can do this.

In complex large, the standard text should clarify if non-town players have multitasking. Any other game cannot have a SK unless announced.

Soooo, what about what would've been Multitasking town roles? Is it just up to the mod to write the role PM to explain whether multiple powers can be used at the same time or not? Town 1-Shot Bulletproof Lazy Multitasking Checker Shield was the most fun role I've gotten, surely it's not just impossible now?

Such roles are still possible in Open games, and themed games for that matter - but it's true that currently town multitasking isn't legal. I considered several different routes to go regarding multitasking, but I felt multitasking as it was too ambiguous. At the very least I thought it was worth separating the traditional sense of 'multitasking' - that mafia could kill and act at the same time - from other players, particularly town players, using multiple actions at once and targeting different people. I am not sure to what extent multi-targeting rules like this actually provide a mechanically standard experience, and contribute towards the functions Normal games are supposed to have on principle.

If it's something people consistently like more than dislike, I'm open to adding a modifier that would allow players to use multiple personal abilities, for complex games only. To me, it feels more like a themed mechanic, but it has been around in normal games for a while now and in practise most of the people who sign up for complex games are probably not going to be bothered by the presence of multi-acting roles. I think it would need a different name than 'multitasking', though.

[Ausuka]

Hi - I've made a form which allows players to request new roles and modifiers for the experimental list of Normal games. If you're interested, please fill it out!

[Ausuka]

Hi! I'm making a new update for the New Year of 2024. It hasn't been very long since the last update, and most of the changes there haven't exactly been tested, so I'm not looking to make any major changes. Still, there are a few roles which are being added to Complex games and the Experimental list.

Action Detector

- investigates a player to learn whether they have acted, and whether anyone has acted on them.

Goon Cop

- investigates a player to learn whether or not they are a Mafia Goon.

Masonizer

- targets a player to add them to a Mason PT if they are town - the target is informed the Masonizer is town. If this role targets a non-town player, the target will not be added to the Mason PT, and the Masonizer will die.

Universal Finder

- investigates a player to learn whether or not they are a specific role. This role has to select both the target, and the role they want to check for.

Companion

- knows a specific player is town-aligned.

Stealthy

- the action this modifier applies to cannot be detected by action investigative roles

Simultaneous

- this player can use multiple personal abilities on the same night.

Making notes here - if you want a Masonizer that doesn't die upon targeting scum, Loyal Masonizer should do the trick. I think both variants are reasonably common and there was some debate in the NRG about this, but on the whole the variant that does die is easier to balance I think, so I'd rather make that the 'default' - both are possible to use either way.

Stealthy is obviously very similar to Ninja. The idea here is that in Complex games, it may be desirable to have a specific action be undetectable.

Simultaneous is similar to the old Multitasking modifier, but is inherently separate from the factional kill. This allows for something like a Mafia Simultaneous Rolecop Tracker, or a Town Simultaneous Doctor Neighborizer, where the player doesn't have to target the same person with both of their actions unlike with the Combined modifier. However, a Mafia Simultaneous Roleblocker would not function any differently from a Mafia Roleblocker, since this modifier doesn't impact the factional kill.

Some people I talked to around the time of the NRG reforms expressed they thought some forms of Informed could belong in Regular games, but I was against informed as a whole being allowed in complex games. If Companion proves to be a role people do actually like and want to use, it could potentially be added to regular games in the future.

Also, there will be some minor tweaks to the review process. Technically, moderators are supposed to send Role PMs and their opening posts into games from the beginning of the review, but this hasn't been done consistently for some time, and I'm not sure it's necessary for moderators to design their role PMs from the start when many of these roles may not end up being in the game.

For reviews beginning after the release of this update, reviews will be split into stages. First is the 'Design Stage' where the moderator consults with reviewers about what roles should be in the setup to make it balanced and fun to play. Second is the 'Finalisation Stage' where the moderator should provide their Role PMs and ruleset - I don't think the rest of the opening posts need to be made in advance, but I do think it makes sense for reviewers to quickly look over the rules. This isn't a major change, and some people will probably find it pointless, but I think it's at least helpful to some people to break it down into stages.

That's all from me - have a fantastic New Year, everyone!

[Ausuka]

I want to acknowledge I've seen this and been thinking about it. I don't think there's any solutions I immediately like. It's definitely a problem that it's impossible for certain games to be in the queue while a very large game is in signups for months. At the same time, the reason we merged the queues in the first place was to reduce the amount of games in signups at the same time because we want to reduce the length of those signups. Having three games in signups at the same time could put that at risk. Maybe it's worth doing anyway, and I want to think about it more, but at the very least it will be a discussion made by the mod team as a whole rather than just me. I think I want to keep the simple/regular micro/mini thing, because it ensures that new players have something suitable to sign up for when they first join. And having two large normals in signups does seem like a bit of a nightmare to me, although a complex mini could be more, uh, complex in how it could be handled since all three could hypothetically appeal to different people.

I think something that could potentially be done is limit large normals to 21 players. Themes wouldn't be affected at all, of course, but I do think games bigger than that aren't super 'normal' in the first place, and do risk taking a very long time to fill more so than other large normals. I think 21 is a natural cap, because in my experience at least it's a pretty common number of players to have historically, and I think above 21 adding more players doesn't necessarily do a lot for the experience?

It could also be possible to limit the amount of time an individual game can be in signups. Obviously, this is done to the theme queue, and it's pretty effective in that people often just aren't interested in signing up for certain games. I do think that's less true for the normal queue, though - it's true that tags like Simple, Regular and Complex can indicate to people what kind of game they're signing up for - I think that's a good thing - but while Simple games fill significantly more quickly, the difference isn't

that

big. I would worry that any limit we could set would apply to all large games, which often do fill rather slowly these days, and just like make it hard for many large normals to fill at all, which obviously isn't what we want. And if we make the limit long, it's not necessarily going to help if your worry is about waiting months for your game to go into signups. I'm open to the idea, but I'm a little skeptical about it?

[Ausuka]

I don't really want to add more third parties to normals

This is primarily because I hate fun