Micro Normal 1094 | Game Over!

[Testarossa]

VOTE: Black

E-1

Nighty night

[Testarossa]

I don't really understand ORAM's reason for voting Gamma tbh. Like there wasn't any real interaction between Gamma and Thomith for her to follow up after the vote anyway and Thomith brushed Gamma aside pretty fast anyway.

I like their post and timing though with looking elsewhere and felt kind of similar about the situation minus the Black townread. Probably my first positive vibe.

[Testarossa]

Hu Tao looks alright as well. Her vote looked at first kind of like by textbook tbh, however I find that more nai. Everything that followed up looked good to me.

I disliked Thomith's early "bait" posts more tbh and that he ignored Black when he thought of himself acting suspicious for going for an easy wagon, when she basically the same. Probably in line with his read on her though, which formed shortly after that.
I don't think he acts like scum that got caught redhanded though. He just seems overexplaining in general to me, at least his dedication seems genuine.

[Testarossa]

What pings you as scummy about ORAM, Arkos?

It's funny that you see a possible Thom/Black team. I thought they are t/s at most as they were acting too much together in like 3 situations at the beginning.
What feels similar about Black to your last game with her and would rather lean scum than town here?

I think I would put Naerys a bit more below, I kind of disliked her unvote, although for me it's more a gutread.

[Testarossa]

Also happy bday Kittie, thanks for me being older than me and thus making feel myself younger.

What do you mean with a lot of things being said without being said?

[Testarossa]

Arko's posts however...meh. I'm getting bad vibes here

I see your point regarding his Thom read. I have my thoughts about that as well, which reads else do you dislike though? Your readlists are pretty similar after all, so I figure you must be unhappy with his reasoning.

Speaking of that, on what is your scumlean on ORAM, now Klick, based on?

[Testarossa]

First impressions: Thomith Town, Hu town, Testarossa town, Kittie probably town too
Scum probably in Gamma/Black
VOTE: Black

From Hu, Thomith and Testarossa i get a feeling like they are trying to solve.
I dont like Gamma´s push on Kittie.Black feels bit flat, i want to add some pressure on her

I think I can figure why you townread those that you have listed there. You need to exlain that Kittie read though. That was even before her first real post.

Also what feels forced about Black's posts? Like I am suspecting Black as well, more for the accusatory nature of her first confrontations with ORAM and Hu Tao that you tend to see from scum in early game, however I would say there is a desire to push people/scum. Like, in comparision you are townreading me while I haven't even done any active scumhunting besides some questioning, which seems like that a little bit weird to me.

[Testarossa]

I feel good about Kittie for now I think. I like how they answered the questions - sure it had to be prompted, but I think there was a decent amount of analysis in them. I'm curious to see their answer to my first two questions though.

How so? Tbh her post felt pretty neutral to me. I would get it if that would be based on getting some vibes from that post, but I don't think she has said anything substantial?

Maybe I am just salty that there are so many scumreading Black, but are that ambigous about it because former games, which doesn't help. lol

[Testarossa]

So basically no one is really townreading Black, besides maybe Thom (if not for his paranoia), while some people seem to be vulturing above her, yet no one really wants to commit to push her to E-1 because... why?

At least I don't feel she is getting bussed here in a scum world. If town, it's a bit more difficult as I might need to review some reads.

Hu Tao's 158 and 182 ping me a bit in a negative way. Would still lean rather town, but it regressed at least. Might you explain what convinced you so much in Arko's meta case?

Also I don't think Black/Gamma is a team.

[Testarossa]

I like the effort to case Black

Why does the effort means in this case that it comes from town?

I have issues with this post, I’ll get into those in a bit

Older post, but do you mind to tell what your issues have been? Also what changed that made you unvote Kittie?

[Testarossa]

I like Arko more as town for now. Originally I slightly disliked his first readlist as all his reads left a window open with phrases like "could be faking it as scum", "this read is an easy changer", "it's 50/50" etc.

However I thought the fact that he loves to interpret so much in some whacky details, like the early rvs wagon on Black regarding his ORAM read as example, is more a thing that townies tend to do.

Don't think Arko/Black is SvS, for that his case seems too dedicated. However I can't really follow how he went from 50/50 of Black being scum to such a strong scumread or urge to go on an all-out metadive.

[Testarossa]

I find it odd that you've kept your RVS vote on me and are now encouraging others to get me to e-1 despite you showing some suspicion over some of the people pushing me. Why do you think I'm scum here?

You know, I am a bit confused myself how I have been handwaved by some while chilling with my vote on you and doing nothing with it, I even mentioned it at some point. Some townreads in this game feel too easy imo.

I think the only one I am suspecting of those, that are pushing you, is Naerys and I am kind of on the fence there ftr. There is some other stuff pending, maybe later more.

[Testarossa]

I find it odd that you've kept your RVS vote on me and are now encouraging others to get me to e-1 despite you showing some suspicion over some of the people pushing me. Why do you think I'm scum here?

As for your actual question: Admittedly it's a bit unfair, as I can be really persistent when I catch on something that triggers me early. Kind of implied it in 133.
24 gave me some bad faith vibes, when oram's post seemed more natural, at least it literally mirrors the mindset I had when I dropped my rvs vote. I disliked 42 for the wording, it felt unnecessarily negative in a way scum likes to do in early game. I acknowledged your response to it, however I happen to mostly dismiss meta from others with people, with whom I play with for the first time and prefer to form my own experiences.

All that said, I thought some of your recent stances were actually good. I liked 167 as example. I can see the defensive argument, but that can go either way. Frankly half the reason I am still on you is that I hadn't yet found anything convincing to sink my fangs in thus I have been more poe'ing so far. Was kind of hoping either someone would come after me for doing nothing with my vote to form some better reads or I can observe how much steam the wagon on you can actually get as more started to scumread you and what I can make out of it. The former led me to getting ignored or townread, the latter is where I am.

[Testarossa]

VOTE: Naerys

[Testarossa]

Kitties post wasn't that exciting to me, it gave more the vibes Arko's first readlist had to me with being kind of vague on most people. I don't get in contrast to that this hard scumread on Gamma.

Gamma's case feels a bit oldschool and I also think she has some points. Her energy for doubling down on Kittie here feels townie imo.

You seem impossible to please atm. Despite openly admitting to faking your reaction, you still find an excuse to keep pushing me.

I don't get this though. Why would you bother to please her or what do you mean with it?

[Testarossa]

Who said it 100% convinced me? I stated I could see it. Seems like it's being blown out of proportion for someone I'm not even voting

I mean you said you are sold on Black due to him and could have seen a Black/Gamma team. Maybe something is lost in translation for me here, but that sounds kind of convinced?

The point of interest was to me what you thought was believable from Arko's meta case, because I found it odd that you were asking if Black is known for getting defensive and going omgus if you were sold on the case, when Arko explicitly gave an example of Black being defensive and omgus-y as scum. (according to him) It looked a bit on the fence, although since you have clarified that you have prioritized Gamma back then, I can get that to a degree.

[Testarossa]

Reasons? You are just jumping at me without any explanation. Put atleast some effort, will you?

I think your reads come off as a bit inconsistent, I pointed that out in 133.

Also don't really have the feeling you are trying to figure people out, although this might be for irl reasons with you just being less around so far. Are you still on Black/Gamma?

[Testarossa]

I still would like to hear thoughts on Testa. Her ISO has some indicators that she's solving but it doesn't feel like anything scum couldn't come up with. Her posts have this agreeable tone that I would expect from scum that is trying to blend in while not making too many enemies.

Oh, neat. So it seems you actually

are

town here then.

[Testarossa]

I am trying to figure out people. My D1 is usually bit weaker, but it gets better.
I am still on Black. I dont like her positioning upon me. She calls it "putting a pressure on me" but to me it feels like pure opportunism.

My problem is I have trouble with thinking your tunnel on Black feels like Arko's tunnel on her for example. Your play comes off as more static here, kind of like scum that doesn't know how to find a better target and how to engage with it. While I am no fan of the beetlejuicing argument, it's difficult to ignore how you were more present the very moment the wagon on you was formed. Can you explain why you think Black comes across as more opportunistic and with no intention of scumhunting here?

Also what's your take on Arko, Enchant slot and Thom?

[Testarossa]

That she is sorting interactions between people. Wouldnt mind some RL from her, but i dont think she is scum.

What is RL?

[Testarossa]

Having read thom's recent posts I realized I have forgotten most of his stances since his reaction test and and went through his iso. I townread him for his dedication earlier, but also kind of think he lost his thunder since then. I think my problem here is that he comes across as a bit self-conscious going by how he seems to focus on other peoples reads on him, at least if they seem to suspect him. His Arko push looked alright on the surface, but failed imo to deliver explaining why Arko being contradicting about his Thom/Black thesis is actually scummy. ( even although it turned out just to be a typo)
Can you actually explain why you thought what was scum-indicative from Arko?

[Testarossa]

Interesting conclusion. Why do you not think scum!me could try to get people to question their townreads on you?

I wasn't even thinking of that. I was mostly joking, because I heard that particular read so often, ever since I played Mafia, that it amuses me everytime someone unfamiliar voices it like that. I think your read on me is the most natural on me in this game and hits the nail, independent of my alignment. Roughly 9 of 10 times this read came from town, I think. While I am not that serious, I would judge it as town-indicative.

What is RL?

Readslist

Turns out I am dumb as well. I can do that once I have sobered up.

[Testarossa]

Hmm. Ok, this is somewhat believable. Have other people on this site said that about you?

Maybe Datisi at some point? Not too sure. I think on this site that read came only once before. For context most of my Mafia experience is off-site and from 2006-2010. I am a dinosaur and apparently some things doesn't seem to change.

[Testarossa]

I understand Naerys claiming, it's not like she would have ended up as nk here anyway.

If she is lying she will get resolved in the massclaim later when there should be too many prs. However with Enchant's flip I think she is just town. Klick's weird townread on her on D1 seems to me like a purposeful red hering.

[Testarossa]

Pretty often a D1 scum flip implies a bus imo, people can't resist for some reason. I think it's noteworthy that the only other promising D1 wagons on Black and Naerys (if we assume Naerys is town) never got more momentum and kind of stalled and died down while the wagon on Enchant happened pretty fast and went almost immediately through. Although that assumption might be a bit flawed with Enchant acting how they acted.

Need to reread stuff later, so on first sight I think Hu Tao is just town and Klick's weird push was to shade someone widely townread.
Kind of want to think Kittie wouldn't bus her partner as newbie on D1, however she was kind of talked into it by Black, when Black was rallying people up. Leaning town atm though, her vote just didn't felt like a bus.
Thom broke the tie between Enchant/Kittie. To be fair Kittie wasn't getting any traction either and Gamma already has mentioned before she would leave for Klick/Enchant. Would be the best bus on the wagon by timing, don't remember how he has been about Enchant slot before and why he joined.
Gamma could fit by how how non-chalant she did it, thought she was town though.

Eh, I think if it was a bus it's between Thom/Gamma.

[Testarossa]

It's weird though how Klick was all fine with the Black wagon, but explicitly said he didn't want to give it further momentum. Either he just wanted to avoid being the E-1 vote or his partner was already there and they didn't want to be both on a potential lim.

Klick was townreading him and Arko always had that slot in their nullreads, but always so phrased like "could be scum, but also town". Although he had Klick as second lowest read, but still as neutral. By reads it could fit well for keeping a partner warm. I still kind of think that whole meta case on Black was too over the top for scum though.

Leaving Naerys out, because of what I said before.

[Testarossa]

Inclined to think it rather was a bus, at least by gut. I can see a world with Arko as partner though. Ultimately I think it might be smarter to lim in me/Arko today as it's the smaller lim pool to clear. In worst case, if it should go till D4 half the Enchant wagon is going to get killed anyway, the off-wagon pool most likely never.

[Testarossa]

My issue with scumNaerys is, that she has trapped herself with the claim. After massclaim she has to get the other town prs limmed over her and she is basically stuck in a 1v1 for D4 elo then instead of having it more open. If she accidentally nightkills a pr earlier than it would be already over by D3, even if she wins the 1v1 against the other pr there. Unless she is crazy.

[Testarossa]

Is it only because of gut that you think it was a bus, or is there any other indicators that make you think it was a bus?

I doubt Gamma is the busser if it was a bus. Nobody had expressed intent to hammer, and Black seemed to be having a relatively hard time convincing people to jump on the wagon in the first place (it took a good few pages before the wagon grew), so I don't see Gamma hammering that early as the partner in my opinion.

Like I said, I always suspect a bus after a D1 scum flip, especially without any remarkable resistance. The only other plausible option from my point of view would be Arko otherwise. While it fits well by his reads of the Enchant slot, I have just been townreading him more than others so far. So a mix of gut and poe.

What I mean with Gamma is, that she was kind of fine voting Enchant when the wagon was in the making and the hammer came after the failed fakeclaim. You

can

see it as her positioning for a potential bus in time and then just abandoning Enchant when the claim failed, because from there on it was clear how it would end anyway. You made a good point with pointing out ORAM's push on Gamma though. It would be weird for ORAM to read you/Black/Hu Tao as town and then interrupt town infighting with a push on her partner.

[Testarossa]

Testarossa also jumping in with 339 to start questioning me, right after Black said she would potentially be willing to fade me still honestly makes me just think Testarossa could just be opportunistic scum trying to find a counter-wagon to Klick/Enchant (I think I mentioned that this felt weird to me before, but reading this again immediately pinged as weird to me again).

Ngl, I already said it once, but these self-conscious lines ping me so badly about you, that I can never commit to a townread on you.

Why do you think I would go for you as counterwagon without even suggesting you as option via vote? Read the room, at that point you were hardly scumread enough to get limmed, rather town or null, and Black even said she would rather keep you around for another day. Going for Kittie would have been better and more in line. Or voting Enchant, either get bus cred or the wagon dissolves because people don't trust me.

Can you explain why you joined the Enchant wagon? Also why do you think it's not Arko? He was putting pressure on Black, yes. But that doesn't mean anything ai. Scum can coast on tunneling as well.

[Testarossa]

I understand Naerys claiming, it's not like she would have ended up as nk here anyway.

Also i dont like this post. Feels like a slip. How could Testa know if i would not end up as nk?

True but just think testa just meant you weren't overly towny day 1 so no reason to think scum would target you

Exactly... kind of. I wasn't talking about the first nk, that one would always have been on Black.
Naerys isn't townie at all by herself (Klick's weird read aside) nor will scum ever kill in the three people who were off the Enchant wagon. Either scum is among us three anyway or has been on Enchant. We three are the easiest mislims if all three town or the necessary hideout for scum, we will never get targeted.

[Testarossa]

Btw I kinda think the logic Testa posted for turning around on me is a bit half-baked. That idea of pushing a buddy over a TvT feud is probably a really simple distancing tactic but I think it’s more common in minis. Btw I disagree with the whole principle of a bus happening on a d1 scum vote specifically in a micro. Losing your scumbuddy D1 in a micro is dangerous.

Not that I disagree, just don't think the short interaction between you two came across as SvS.
I actually think in a micro it pays more off if done well and frankly, what would even have been the realistic option with Enchant, the way they played?

[Testarossa]

It's a bit frustrating in my shoes that Arko isn't around to sort, I still think it's between Arko/Thom.
Tbf I am not really against my lim though. There are too many people who are suspecting me as scum anyway, at least I think Gamma/Hu/Kittie as well when I go by D1 reads. At this point I would rather be out of the picture sooner than getting kept around for wifom reasons and distracting the rest of town. Need more from Arko and Kittie before though.

[Testarossa]

Can you explain what you mean about my "self-conscious lines" because I genuinely dont know what you mean when you're saying that.

Just because you arent voting someone doesnt mean you're not suggesting them as an option.
My wagon had grown once before, so it's not out of the realm of possibilities that it could have happened again, while Kittie's wagon stagnated after only a few votes.

In all honesty I was following Black with the Enchant vote. I didn't like the push on her so thought there was a big enough chance of her being Town to see where the wagon went, and if enchant flipped town I feel it would have still given us a decent amount of information on black/others on the wagon. Admittedly I didnt expect the hammer to happen so quickly.

I think we talked about it before. I am on the fence about it for the whole game as it could just be a playstyle thing. Everytime someone scumreads you or feels uncertain about you, you are immediately summoned and jump straight out of the box to question the person. I can see why you would act like that as town to form better reads, but it also just looks like scum that is concerned to stay safe and tries to shoot down any possible suspicions.

And you think you would have been so much better as counterwagon than Kittie? You, who wasn't even widely scumread besides maybe by Black? Like, did you get the vibe from my post that I was trying to convince Black to move away from Klick? Why should I act all passive as partner when I see the focus shifting to Klick? I don't see what you would see here.

The argument is a bit funny to me, when I look how you just started immediately questioning Klick when Black started mentioning and voting Klick. With a question that Klick already had answered before, to you even. If you were just following Black then why did you wait in doing so until Hu Tao has joined as well?

For that matter, why not also joining the Naerys wagon back then (who was actually pushing for a Black lim) when it had three votes and you weren't voting anywhere else and were already town on Black anyway? You went for Kittie later and I have no issues about that one. Going by 238 you didn't seemed really town on Naerys though.

[Testarossa]

Testarossa, i feel is genuine in their quest to solve. she is interacting and asking questions. responding and putting forth good theories.

What changed between D1 and D2 though? In 204 you had me as scum and tbh I don't think my play hasn't changed much since then.

[Testarossa]

I like in 489 how Elements perceives some posts of Enchant slot, whch mirrors some thoughts I had about them as well.

The readlist pings me a bit, but that's probably mostly me being a bit paranoid.

Elements, can you explain your progression from Kittie as town down to your scumreads? Also why do you think that Thom is scum?

[Testarossa]

By play there isn't much speaking into Naerys favor. However I feel like that Klick's out of nowhere townread in 108 and doubling down on a strong townread 154 on Naerys, which was kind of against the stream in the thread where most had her as null or scum, look way more like intended misleading by him, which implies that Naerys is more likely town imo.

Not too sure if her claim is legit, but if true it's in scum's interest to get her limmed. We can sort that later mechanically if necessary. This is a micro and not a mini. If there is only one further pr she is legit. If there should be too much claimed power we can review.

[Testarossa]

My poe hasn't really changed. Still at Elements/Thom. Everyone else looks mostly alright or I have no interest in limming them.

Elements looks fine to me, I was townreading Arko mostly anyway and the only thing that bothers me there are the reads on ORAM/Klick by Arko. However Arko has been similar with some of his other reads (Kittie, me, Gamma I think). I think I would rather go with Thom here.

VOTE: Thomith That's E-1

[Testarossa]

Good game, folks!
Sorry, wished I could have been more active, but I think playing season really is over for me. Hope I was still readable enough.

The D1 bus theory stands once again though.