726 - Mind Screw Gaiden, Game Over

[Kairyuu]

Well, since I confirmed when I first got my role, and there is a votecount up already, I'm gonna assume that the game has started.

vote: Natirasha

2 Reasons:

1. Mind screw requires a mod wagon every time because I said so (preferably to a lynch)
2. Nat seems to both have a vote, and have claimed SK already. Good ol' Nat.

[Kairyuu]

Ok then, since we all seem to be reavealing that we have specific information, I may as well do so too.

I would like to suggest a mass nameclaim, since I have some name information that can help out a bit. However, I would be perfectly content with waiting until after the origin claim (which I don't have any objections to) and narrowing down my search.

Also, Nat's threats don't bother me. He claimed SK in his FAQ post, and seems to have self-voted. I'm content with my vote for now.

[Kairyuu]

I see. So Tar, your information is similar to mine? I suspect you may be who I am lookin for. I will origin claim if you do, but I would request that you go first.

@Kinetic: I don't like that idea too much. I would prefer a straight origin massclaim. I will, of course, stop it once I have the information that I need.

I propose Tar to start, because I think we may not need any more than his claim.

Also, I will be V/LA for a bit. Ill still be around, but not all that much.

[Kairyuu]

Back. Sorta. RL is still giving me hell (senior service project).


Ok then. So it seems that quite a few people have been given info that a person/people from half-life are anti-town. And since everyone seems to be saying that in thread, the scum will very likely not claim to be from half-life, rendering a name claim/origin claim utterly useless now.

For the record, I have information that G-Man is not town. I may as well claim that now, since the scum have too much warning for the nameclaim to work at this point anyway.

[Kairyuu]

Ok. Back now. Sorry for going AWOL for a bit.

To start,

unvote

and

vote: hp [leaves]

. That is pretty much all I have to go on right now, and not having information that the majority of the town has is likely the best scumtell we have right now.

@Illumina: Interesting. So you have now proved that you are not readin the thread, since you now would know

exactly

what my motives were, since you would know what the information I was looking for is. Namely, that I (as well as most of the town apparently) knew that G-Man is not town. I was hoping to stop the massclaim once someone had claimed to be him.

[Kairyuu]

Major apologies to all for my absence. Unfortunately, it must continue, since my laptop is making sounds like a dying cat and freezing up every 5 minutes. So yeah, it needs to get sent to get repaired.

@mod: Is it possible for me to get a temporary replacement while I send my computer to get fixed (about 2 weeks)? If the replacement would have to be permanent I understand, but I would prefer to come back if at all possible.

@Illumina:

I didn't know you were looking for the G-man

This^^

I have been reading the thread, thanks

Contradicts this^^

For the record, I have information that G-Man is not town. I may as well claim that now, since the scum have too much warning for the nameclaim to work at this point anyway.

Because of this^^

So that leaves us with a few possibilities as to what is going on here.

1. You are not reading the thread (therefore, you are lying)
2. You are simply skimming the thread, and may have missed it on your way through (anti-town, because it shows that you jumped on the first thing you saw without looking into it further)
3. You actually are reading the thread, and you did notice that I mentioned G-Man, but chose to pursue it anyway (which implies that you are scum trying to make up a case)

Of those possibilities, 3 is highly unlikely, simply because you would have noticed several people chiming in with their information (which was the same as mine) immediately after I presented it. Therefore, the route would be highly unlikely to yield a wagon, and would be a poor play.

1 and 2 are both reasonably likely, and both are less than great for your position. Either you are lying (I generally pursue LAL unless logic dictates another route is far better), or you are not committing yourself to trying to scumhunt, which could also imply scum.

I want to know how you managed to miss the entire conversation about the G-Man issue.

FOS: Illumina

@Vi:

Hey yuu, quit being AWOL

Heh. There was actually someone in my newbie game called Yuu. When I saw this I thought that she somehow replaced in without my noticing.

What do you think of my line of inquiry with tajo?

I think that he has tied himself nice and strongly to hp [leaves] and that if we lynch hp and he flips scum, tajo probably is too. Linking tells are nice. I like them.

So yeah, I agree with pretty much your entire argument, and probably would have called him on the hypocritical behavior if I had been around for it when it happened.

[Kairyuu]

@Illumina:

Your post 70 makes sense now that I read it the right way -- I read every sentence, but failed to put 2 and 2 together.

There's a way to misread it?

Back. Sorta. RL is still giving me hell (senior service project).

First bit. Explaining V/LA. Irrelevent.

Ok then. So it seems that quite a few people have been given info that a person/people from half-life are anti-town. And since everyone seems to be saying that in thread, the scum will very likely not claim to be from half-life, rendering a name claim/origin claim utterly useless now.

Chastising the town for revealing too much information, rendering the gambit Tar and I were both trying to run (which, amusingly enough, was backfiring anyway for both of us, since we were suspecting each other) useless.

For the record, I have information that G-Man is not town. I may as well claim that now, since the scum have too much warning for the nameclaim to work at this point anyway.

I reveal exactly what information I was looking for. That it was later supported by quite a few other people lends credibility to it. As the first one to claim the exact information it is highly unlikely that I do not actually have it.

Hmm. Nowhere in there is there anything misleading or confusing. Nothing that is not blatantly obvious. So, please explain how you misunderstood what I was saying so drastically. What you have been saying does not add up.

Your reaction was interesting, though...

How so. Saying that something is "interesting," without providing your reasoning as to the "why" it is interesting and the "what kind" of interesting it is, is a cop out. It means that you want other people to find it strange, but you do not want to be the first person to actually take action based on it. Then, if people do not jump on it, and it comes up later, you can just say that it was something that you noted for later, but had no real relevance at the time. I'm getting odd vibes from you right now.

Oh wow. I missed something my first time through your post.

I got the note as well

Alright. So you have a note that tells you G-Man is anti-town. You see me state in a post that I know that G-Man is anti-town as an explanation for why I wanted a mass nameclaim. And then, you FOS me for that. I call bullshit. I think that you are either trying to cover up for not reading the thread (implying you are lying) or you are trying to blend in by claiming to have the note when you don't (also implying that you are lying).

LAL.

unvote

and

vote: Illumina

You've trapped yourself in your own story. You are lying about something. The only question is what. Either way, you're easily the best place for my vote right now, and, as with all of my votes but the random ones, I would be happy to carry it to a lynch right now.

[Kairyuu]

@hp [leaves]: Good show. Two possibilities arise. Either you are town and you just proved that you actually

do

have the note (since yes, you're completely right in that it says that), or the scum can daytalk and you were told by a buddy who actually did get the message what to say. Not sure which.

@tajo: The hypocritical behavior where you yelled at people for trying to use secret info to catch the scum, and then immediately followed it with your own idea to use secret information to catch the scum.

@Mod: On second thought, I will try to stay in the game, since I have managed to beat my computer into submission. It's probably a temporary fix, but it'll do for now.

[Kairyuu]

@tajo:

If I had information regarding that someone from somewhere is antitown, I simply dont share it in the thread. Someone though it was a good idea. I think it was stupid.

Agree.

Who was the first to post that? Maybe scum cant daytalk and scum number 1 who prob get the note used that as a way to tell their scumpartner from HalfLife about it. Anything is possible here.

Completely reasonable. A possibility.

Now, what Im proposing is that we use our information to semiconfirm people, something very similar to what hp just did some posts ago.

That still requires people post the information in thread, which you have set yourself against. There is no difference between the two things. It is your attitude that is the problem. Disliking the fact that what happened ended up happening and then deciding to salvage what can be salvaged from the information is one thing. The way you treated it, as if you want people to bring in

new

information to compound the amount that is known in thread in the slight hope that someone else has the same information and can semi-confirm whoever claimed, is hypocritical.

[Kairyuu]

I find it hard to believe that it took hp that long to suddenly realize he has the note.

This^^^

or the scum can daytalk and you were told by a buddy who actually did get the message what to say.

Is the reason for this^^^

@Tajo:

there is obvious information that can be shared

Nothing is obvious. This is a Mind Screw game. No information is, strictly speaking, "safe" to share.

Lemme preface this next bit by saying that, yes, I would like it if we could come close to confirming townies. However, there are several reasons that we should

not

pursue that course of action right now.

First, it is early in D1. If we have semi-confirmed townies, then that is essentially painting a big red target on their chests and telling the scum to kill them. Later in the game, like maybe D2 or 3, this is a good idea, especially if we can confirm more than the scum can kill.

Second, we have no clue whether or not the scum got the note, as you said yourself. If they did (and new evidence is pointing somewhat towards the answer being yes) then what you are proposing does nothing beneficial, and actually hurts the town in the long run.

Third, if we were to do it, then according to you, we would be doing it using new, previously unshared information that you seem to think many of us have. This is quite bad, since it is both trying to outguess the mod of a mind screw game, and could have unanticipated affects to help the scum.

At this point, I still think that your behavior is/was hypocritical. The information that is already claimed in thread, if it cold be used to serve the purpose, then no, suggesting that would not be hypocritical. However, suggesting we just toss around other tidbits that the scum can pick up and find a use for after attacking people for doing the same thing (I still disagree that you are doing anything different from what you are yelling at others for doing), is quite so.

[Kairyuu]

@Illumina:

it looks like you reacted a little strongly to a perceived opportunity.

I smash everyone. You aren't a special case.

This is based on your post 114 where you cited a weak argument (ie, me misunderstanding you was patently impossible)

Well considering that, as I explained previously, both points (massclaim and G-Man) were mentioned in the same post, and the G-Man point was mentioned as a concession to the massclaim not being useful anymore, AND I specifically referenced the massclaim idea

in the same paragraph

as I claimed the G-Man info, then yes, I'm reasonably certain that you did not simply misinterpret.

then quickly made conclusions about me based on that, ALL of which painted me as scum

So what is mafia then? Is it no longer a game about drawing logical conclusions based on information available? The information said that you were either lying or being opportunistic. Both of those are scummy. Therefore, all of my conclusions pointed to your being scum. And then, with your contradictions and backpedaling, I have solidified my opinion on you as being scum.

As I defend myself, you continue to leave no room whatsoever for a simple misreading, and keep downplaying my explanation in favor of the options you want to showcase.

My options are based on logic. Your explanation is highly unlikely based on evidence, and therefore, since your argument is not logical, I am not going to cede my points.

Vote: Kairyuu.

Thanks for the OMGUS

[Kairyuu]

@Illumina:

seems like we're at an impasse as to whether my misreading you was possible or not. I still think your posts had an opportunistic ring to them, but I don't have any more evidence to cite. Seems like any further debate between us wouldn't be helpful.

You see, I would agree, except that my main method of scumhunting is argument. If I can get a scum into a heated debate, then they will slip up and trap themselves. You know, like you did. You either cede the points or I keep pushing. Also, this seems like you are backing down to get out of the spotlight, which scum try to avoid usually.

I have another question, though: are you criticizing tajo because you consider his actions poor town play, or scummy play?

I'm criticizing him for hypocritical play. Hypocritical behavior is not always a scumtell in my book. It depends on the context and the consequences of the behavior. In this case, it is scummy, but not entirely because it is hypocritical. More because he proposed revealing more sensitive information that might exist in order to "semi-confirm" people. This, combined with the fact that he had just been criticizing people for doing the same thing, makes the underlying point look worse.

@Vi: Well, you got me on tajo's case with your question, so it's my turn to ask you something. What do you think of my arguments against Illumina?

[Kairyuu]

@Illumina:

Trust me, I could refute your points for another couple pages

Let's just say that you are town. In this situation, when someone thinks you are scum based on a set of arguments that you are debating, it is in your best interest to continue to attempt to explain yourself and prove to your attacker that you are not scum. Therefore, you should want to continue the debate, fielding any now questions or comments that come up in the process. The fact that this is how I scumhunt doesn't really factor in here, because if you are town then you don't know if you can trust me.

However, if you are scum, then all of this attention is probably not what you want, and you have very good reason to cut it off right here. Besides, if you are scum, then you don't want other people agreeing with me and voting you as well.

Please provide me with a pro-town reason that you want to back down from this debate, keeping in mind that it is fully possible to do so while still commenting on other people.

inundating the thread with our debate probably isn't going to be helpful

I disagree from a personal standpoint, seeing as more debate means more positions taken by other people. More positions taken means more information for later that people can hunt through looking for scumtells. Plus, the way other people comment on our debate forces them to take a stand and support one of us. If/when one of us dies, these positions will be very useful for forging connections between players. Honestly, I can't see a downside.

@tajo:

Reading this makes me think that either you are an idiot or you are scum. But I know you arent an idiot.

Well then apparently I'm an idiot. However, you need to tell me

why

I'm an idiot, or I can't respond. Explain.

[Kairyuu]

@tajo: Then maybe you should have specified that when you made your suggestion, or perhaps during the 100 times you were explaining it. I understand your point now, and I have no problem with it. However, given the sudden "realization" that some of the players have had that they had the note, and Tar's comment on daytalk means that it is highly unlikely that the scum don't have the note, so I don't think that the information will lead to anything useful.

@MafiaSSK: Can you at least

try

to play to something other than your anti-town meta? Like, I dunno, playing to your win condition?

[Kairyuu]

Ok veerus. Let's think about this for a second. We had people claim that they didn't get the note. These people, much later, decided to rescind that claim. The way that makes sense is if a single scum got the note, and they are allowed to daytalk. Therefore, when the other scum told them exactly what the note was, they knew to rescind their not having it status. The daytalk status plus the strange fipflopping of whether people did or didn't have the role

does

imply that the scum received the note. Specifically that only one of them did.

[Kairyuu]

Thank you. That is all I ask. I know that Nat can be a rather good player when he wants to, so I was hoping you could be persuaded as well. I'm glad I was right.

[Kairyuu]

@Vi:

At this point Kairyuu is justifying beating a dead horse (and attempting to put it in a noose) with playstyle.

Really? So have I called for a wagon? Sure, I would like Illumina lynched at this point in time, but it's only page 7, so there should still be plenty of discussion for me to initiate and comment on that may sway my position.

Also, if you don't believe me about my playstyle, look at Newbie 661, Mini Normal 682: C9++, and (this one is currently running) Mini Theme 713: Wheel of Time Mafia. These are all games where I got into large scale debates as a method of scumhunting.

This is effectively what he's saying here <snip> "I would agree that this is over nothing, BUT for the sake of argument, let's assume I don't."

Do not put words in my mouth. My point was not that, it was that 1. I scumhunt through argument the most effectively. 2. Illumina has been trapped in his/her own arguments, and needs to actually respond to my points about that instead of just "I didn't do it." The argument is not over, and his/her backing down seems scummy to me. I explained several reasons why there is no reason to cut off the argument before it is done.

Something I saw while I was rereading. I don't see how this makes sense now that (presumably) we know what the information is.

My assumption at that point was that The person I was looking for had information that I was looking for them as well. As the person who suggested the origin claim in the first place, I considered that Tar was the most likely to be that person, and that he was trying a countermeasure. Obviously I was wrong.

You're going waaaaaaay too soft on SSK here. Promise everything, deliver nothing, etc.

I have never played with him before, so if he says he will try, then I assume he will follow through.

Please explain your entire case against me, so that I may alleviate what worries I can of yours.

[Kairyuu]

@Illumina: Hmm. Am I irritating you yet? The more you react the more information the town gets on you, and the more I push the more information the town has on me. Personally, I'm having loads of fun right now, since your reactions are beginning to become predictable.

By the way, I'm still waiting for you to provide the pro-town reason for backing away from the debate (keeping in mind that on a forum like this it is completely possible to carry on multiple discussions at the same time).

I am not trapped in any argument.

Yes you are. Now let's try it again, this time with you telling me

why

I'm wrong.

If Kairyuu wants to continue his stance, its for the rest of the town to decide if it has any merit.

Yupyup. I'll keep poking and prodding until they all realize that you are avoiding questions, hiding from the spotlight, and only actually moving to confront once you have support. Too bad I got my own in Tar.

Oh look. It seems to me as if we have our first serious sides taken. Vi is backing you, and Tar is backing me. Now we just need the other 8 players to show up and take a stand. Then I can move on. (Hint: As I've said before, this is why I won't drop it yet)

Kairyuu asks something new, I'm all over it.

Alrighty then.

1. What gender are you? I don't really want to keep saying him/her in reference to you.

2. Why is the sky blue?

3. How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

4. Is Vi your scumbuddy?

5. Who are you and your buddies planning to kill? Is it me?

6. Do you like cats?

7. Who is your other scumbuddy? Is it hp [leaves]?

8. What is the molarity of a 92 proof solution of alcohol, assuming that the solution is composed entirely of ethanol and water? Boiling point elevation? Freezing point depression? Vapor pressure of the solution? This test is worth 100 points and counts as 1/3 of your second quarter average.

All he's been doing is repeating his logic over and over, parroting that how I read his post was impossible.

All I've been doing is repeating my logic over and over, parroting that how you read my post is impossible. Oh wait. That's not right. I've brought in other points since then, but they have been pretty much ignored.

[Kairyuu]

Hmm. Natwagon. Could be interesting. I can't really post tonight, but I will comment on everything as early as I can tomorrow.

Note: I am NOT one of those people who says something like that and then ditches.

[Kairyuu]

@Illumina:

To repeat myself: you're wrong because you refuse to recognize that I misread your post.

I do not refuse to recognize anything. What I refuse to do is acknowledge that you failed to understand a simple paragraph that included several keyword references to the massclaim as being about my reasons for wanting a massclaim.

However, the debate has moved beyond that small part. Insisting that it is the entire argument, as you do here:

That's it. That's what we're fighting about.

is a straw man.

Let's assume for a second that I drop my original assertion about the impossibility as null. I still have all of your actions and reactions to go on from when the debate was still going strong, OMGUS and straw man included. This still leads me to believe that you are the best bet for scum I have right now.

In addition to that, I am still waiting on people to comment (with reasons) on our debate. Once that happens, I can reevaluate the usefulness of continuing it. At this point I think that pushing for your lynch is a good play for today. however, there are other good plays, and yours may take a backseat to others in my mind later in the Day.

Kairyuu, think about this: how many times in an average mafia game do you think people misread posts by mistake?

Reasonably often. However, there are some things that I consider so blatantly obvious that a misreading excuse does not seem likely enough for me to consider.

Also, you lied again. You said that if I brought up some new questioning that you would be all over it. I had several questions in my last big-ish post. You have not responded. Please do. Some of them were serious (the first and last for example).

@Vi:

The first, yes, you are beating a dead horse of an argument.

I do that. Read my wiki.

And these reasons are "because I like arguments and antagonizing people for personal gain".

Yeppers. Except I do not try to purposefully antagonize people. I consider these arguments to be debates, with both me and my opponent butting heads and searching for either holes in argument or a reconciled position that ends in agreement. Of course, the other effect is that if I can get the debate into the center of the town's attention, then it practically forces people to take a side, which gives me information.

I can imagine it's only slightly more annoying to be subjected to than it is to read given that this is your word against Illumina's.

I think that you are somewhat oversimplifying, but not a whole lot. At this point, in my insistence on the point that actually

is

my word against Illumina's, he/she has committed several actions that I consider scummy, including OMGUS and straw manning. However, I do agree that unless you actually realize that I don't intend to be mean when I do this, it is probably quite annoying.

And how do you plan to confirm this? This looks incredibly improbable from my point of view - one scum gets the note and has to pass it to the others without anyone noticing?

Umm. No. There's the point about daytalking that has been mentioned rather often, including by me, in that post you quoted.

lrn2meta

But I dun wanna.

You want to press me on it, you can do my thesis.

Hmm. What class and what sort of thesis?

[Kairyuu]

@Vi:

Soooooooooo... if the scum can daytalk, why didn't they already discuss the note amongst each other? I mean srsly.

Perhaps they did not think the note would become so significant, and therefore did not begin to discuss it until after hp [leaves] had claimed to not have it. I dunno. I think it is more likely that sort of thing happened than hp [leaves] actually forgot a major part of his own role.

As to the thesis discussion, I recently wrote a thesis paper (high school, so only 5 pages) on how Richard from

Richard III

by Shakespeare provides a way for readers to live out their violent inner thoughts through reading. It was fun. I almost got sent to my guidance counselor.

[Kairyuu]

Sorry. Unexpected V/LA. Will make short update post tomorrow night, and should be back Monday some time.

[Kairyuu]

OK. Nothing has happened since I went V/LA, so this is just the promised update.

The massive homework load (you try working on a single subject for 20 hours straight and still play mafia) is shrinking rapidly. It should be gone by tomorrow midday if I don't get scheduled to work the morning.

[Kairyuu]

I . . . hate . . . school.

Midterms start tomorrow, so you guys probably won't get any thing of a decent length from me until Thursday. Really sorry about this.

[Kairyuu]

Whoot. Almost done. 2 midterms left!

@Vi: Yes. Midterms in January. When do you have yours?

Hopefully I can finish enough of my work to get a moderately sized post in sometime later tonight, but I will definitely have a nice wall o' text for you guys tomorrow sometime once I'm done with midterms.

[Kairyuu]

Sorry Sorry Sorry Sorry Sorry Sorry Sorry Sorry Sorry.

I didn't finish all of my crap until 4am, and now I'm gonna be at a friend's house until tomorrow night.

Expect a post no later than tomorrow.

[Kairyuu]

Starting the catch up post now. It will hopefully be up soon.

[Kairyuu]

@Illumina:

In answer to your question, I wanted the debate dropped because it seemed frivolous at the beginning, and I've seen town get distracted and derailed by such long, sustained arguments before, to their detriment.

Very well. If you wouldn't mind providing example games then they would be quite helpful. I'd like to reference Mini Normal 682: C9++ in two different examples of the style working. My argument with Artem early on set the roleblocker on his trail which got Artem caught as scum when the kill was prevented N1. Also, sekinj's positions put much of the town on her case D2 because of it (me an mykonian, masons, ended up accidentally preventing us from catching her until I had already broken the game and gotten NKed). The second argument I had in that game was with Sheherazade, and Scigatt/Natirasha's position on that case netted another scum.

I can certainly see you're not planning to stop, so I will continue.

YAYZ!

That said, I can't decide if you're opportunistic scum who's latched on like a piranha, or really zealous town, and its bothering me.

Hahahahahaha! I'd assure you that I'm town, but that probably wouldn't help. By all means, if you think I'm scum, then build a legit case against me and push for my lynch.

If there's another relevant question I'm missing, please ask it again.

Somewhat relevant: Your gender. I would like to know it so I can stop referring to you as a him/her.

This is probably outdated in the 6 pages since this post, but I would like to know where you stand on hp [leaves] with the note issue, Nat with the Jesus claim, and Tar's claim. If you answered any of those after the post I am quoting, then just assume I saw your response unless I mention otherwise. If you took stands before the post I am quoting, then please point them out to me, since I must have missed them.

@all: OK. I will need to reread the last few pages a few times to get some decent comments together, since quite a bit has been going on. I should probably be able to get that up after work tomorrow (This is not extending my V/LA, I am officially back from that to the point that I was at before RL fell on me).

@Kinetic: I'm curious as to your case against me, and how I would be paired with tajo given that all of your links are between tajo and hp [leaves] and none of them are between him and I. Please elaborate. I'm curious to know your reasoning.

Also, I think I know what you are talking about with the information you can't share which would push your read one way or the other.

[Kairyuu]

Alright. Lets begin with a list.

Kairyuu:

I obviously know myself to be town, but I think that an outside viewpoint may be iffy on me based on the extended V/LA and the arguments with Illumina.

forbiddanlight:

I have barely any read on her. Nothing overly scummy, nothing overly townie. I am biased towards believing her about growing apathetic about this game, since I ended up doing that in a different game I was in for low activity reasons as well.

hp [leaves]:

I think that the note issue as well as the unprompted defense of him by Illumina paints him in a very scummy light. I would be happy with his lynch.

Illumina:

I've laid out my many reasons why I think he/she is scum. The recent defense of hp [leaves] right out of the blue is scummy as heck to me. There is no valid reason that I can think of other than masonship, which is nowhere close to guaranteed in a mind screw game, that he/she should be defending another player D1. Plus some more misrep that I will get to later.

Kinetic:

Another one I have nothing really to comment on. I'm curious to the extreme about how neutral he is on Illumina (take a side so I can update my notes already). Also, I still want to know why he seems to think I am scum.

MafiaSSK:

I asked him to try to contribute more, but he has not listened. I therefore have no information at all on him outside of small tidbits that remind me strongly of Empking's playstyle.

tajo:

The incident earlier makes him look somewhat scummy to me, but not at the top of my list or in danger of getting there anytime soon.

malthusis:

I didn't even realize that he was playing in this game until I saw Illumina address him about something. He needs to post more content.

Isacc:

Not a bad start. I find the position on Illumina to be strange (He attacks him/her and then when he/she decides to completely misrepresent our argument Isacc retracts most of the suspicion).

Tarhalindur:

Probably the strongest town read I have now that the information about the note is out in the open. Good ideas, and strong town play in my opinion.

veerus: There are a surprising number of people I have no read on in this game. He is one of them. People need to post more solid content.

Vi: Confuses the hell out of me. Flips straight from commenting on Illumina's scumminess to saying that I am the one who is scum within a few posts. Follows that with a refusal (with perfectly acceptable reasons) to elaborate on why I am scummy. I would still like an explanation, in small parts if necessary.

Natirasha: Is apparently a player in this game. Probably G-Man. Apparently Tar thinks he is metal, and Nat is claiming that there is no mycosinth pit in this game. Nat is also claiming to be town. If Nat is metal and is telling the truth about the pit, then he must be telling the truth about being town as well. Otherwise, we would be dealing with an anti-town player that is invincible, and I doubt even Nat would be that evil.

Therefore, I think Illumina is the most likely scum, but I think that Nat may be the best lynch information-wise.

unvote

and

vote: Natirasha

[Kairyuu]

@Illumina:

Starting in his 114, he tries to box me in using his logic that reading his post any other way is impossible.

Show that I am trying to box you in. I see it as you boxing yourself in, and I have provided reasons. Your turn. Point, counterpoint.

Kairyuu didn't want to do this, citing that my reactions were helpful and allowed the town to take sides. Sounds reasonable, except that we weren't generating any new content to take sides over, just locking horns over the original issue.

Except that the argument arising over this very thing generated more content which hasn't been covered by you yet (I'll go look for it when I finish this post).

I still feel that Kairyuu's focus on that one thing is unhelpful, and probably helped generate the low activity we're having now (something I've seen happen before, and wanted to avoid).

I think that this point suffers from false premises. Large argument ---> low activity level is incorrect. Lazy/ apathetic players + rampant V/LA ---> low activity level is quite a bit more likely.

The only thing I've conceded is that Kairyuu's argument was tiresome, and unhelpful because it was an overreaction to something trivial (ie, my misreading his post, then correcting myself).

The original point was a small matter. However, it did not stay limited to that for long. I elaborated on my case in most of my posts against you, and the "beating a dead horse" was limited to continuing to argue that point in each of my new, expanded posts.

For most of the game, Kairyuu's argument was, "It's impossible that you could have misread my post. Now stop evading and try to convince me you misread my post." What other reasoning is there, besides the truth that I misread his post? Naturally, any response I made got interpreted as "being trapped in my own argument".

This is a continuation of the misrep and strawman argument. My case did not even come close to being limited to that single point. The point is a small part of the most recent case I made.

[Kairyuu]

OK. Many apologies, but I need a replacement due to real life issues. I'm in a crapload of trouble at home.

My sincerest apologies to everyone in this game.

@Illumina: I was really enjoying our debate, and wish I could continue it. Sorry to have to bow out partway through.

[Kairyuu]

I'm glad that we won (I'm counting this as a win even though I had to replace out because Zwet was only alive for all of like 3 posts), but I would have rather won without all of the mod involvement.

Also, if I would have stayed in it would have been easier for town, because I woulda vigged Illumina D2 (because it required one Day for me to change roles before I could use my new power) and taken care of revealing the rules much earlier.