726 - Mind Screw Gaiden, Game Over

[Illumina]

/confirm, and FoS: Natirasha. There's a reason the FoS's are listed, and I want to figure out what it is.

Nothing like secret information to make d1 interesting... Didn't expect to see the metal/flesh mechanic in this game.

[Illumina]

Couple of things.

Tar: maybe I missed something, but for clarification: based on your post 56, it sounds like your information explicitly stated you're searching for someone non-town -- is that correct? Is that what suggests to you that Kairyuu could be non-town? (I think I missed that...)

veerus: have you played any games modded by Natirasha before?

Also,

FoS

: Kairyuu for wanting to control the claim that way -- we don't know what your motives are, and that's too much power in one person's hands.

[Illumina]

Does that imply that the vote count was significant in some way, beyond counting votes...?

Kairyuu: I didn't know you were looking for the G-man, it just seemed like you were looking for one person in particular, for some reason I didn't know. I have been reading the thread, thanks...

No, I meant to say deadline.

[Illumina]

I got the note as well, but the way Kairyuu was framing the claim sounded like his finding someone might have been part of his win condition or something. The wording of it made me uneasy, especially when he said "we can stop the claim when I'm satisfied".

But that's my mistake. Your post 70 makes sense now that I read it the right way -- I read every sentence, but failed to put 2 and 2 together. So, my bad. Your reaction was interesting, though...

[Illumina]

For the record, I have information that G-Man is not town. I may as well claim that now, since the scum have too much warning for the nameclaim to work at this point anyway.

I didn't associate your information with G-man with your reasons for the massclaim: I just read the above as you trying something different because the massclaim wasn't fruitful. A silly misreading, and easily corrected. I'd have unFoS'd you, except your reaction pinged my radar.

It was the way you corrected me that was interesting; and I wanted to wait and see if you'd continue it. From where I'm sitting, it looks like you reacted a little strongly to a perceived opportunity. This is based on your post 114 where you cited a weak argument (ie, me misunderstanding you was patently impossible), then quickly made conclusions about me based on that, ALL of which painted me as scum (this is why I left my FoS on you).

As I defend myself, you continue to leave no room whatsoever for a simple misreading, and keep downplaying my explanation in favor of the options you want to showcase. You keep blatantly ignoring my explanation, insisting you've caught scum because you want a lynch. I am not, in fact, "trapped in my story". The explanation is actually really simple. But it appears to be in your best interest to downplay that as much as you can.

Vote: Kairyuu

.

[Illumina]

Kairyuu: seems like we're at an impasse as to whether my misreading you was possible or not. I still think your posts had an opportunistic ring to them, but I don't have any more evidence to cite. Seems like any further debate between us wouldn't be helpful.

I have another question, though: are you criticizing tajo because you consider his actions poor town play, or scummy play?

MSSK: For what reasons?

[Illumina]

Kairyuu: Trust me, I could refute your points for another couple pages -- but when it comes down to it, we're butting heads on a single issue, and inundating the thread with our debate probably isn't going to be helpful. Our points have pretty much been laid out, you're not asking any new questions. I see where you're coming from, though: so I'll restate what I've already said. [insert my earlier argument here]

Vi: You're just prejudiced because I won =P. Honestly, though, your points are reasonable, especially since my debate with Kairyuu has stalled.

So here's my take on things so far.

I find it plausible that Veerus assumed the presence of safeclaims. It could have been a slip on his part, sure, but I had a safeclaim in my last game run by Nat, and it seems like Veerus had similar experience in past Mind Screw games. I can see why people caught on to it, because it seems like a good tell -- but I'm assuming the presence of safeclaims too, until proven otherwise. So it's noteworthy, but a fairly neutral tell in my book.

hp[leaves] is an interesting situation. It's not totally unreasonable that the note was randomly distributed, but it's interesting that no one (presumably town-aligned) has admitted to also not having it from the start. I also tend to doubt that he suddenly thought to check it, although I'm not discounting that as a possibility.

My initial impression of the debate between tajo and Vi seems like two townies fighting, but I'll be taking a closer look at that.

I'm also unsatisfied with MSSK's reasoning. Specifically, his take on hp, the scuffle between Kairyuu and I, and the argument between populartajo and Vi. MSSK: pick two of those and tell me what you think, with at least four sentences for each.

[Illumina]

Does that meann you don't find those discussions interesting?

[Illumina]

Kairyuu

: I really did misread that one post. I'm sure I wasn't reading closely enough (though I wasn't technically skimming as I've read every post).

Also, I'm not backing down from any debate, I'm just not sure how I can persuade you. I think my misreading was perfectly plausible and didn't warrant the reaction it got from you, and you think my error was impossible to make and therefore faked. People misread posts all the time -- it's not a town or scum thing to do, it's a human thing to do.

And to be fair, it's plausible that you're overzealous town and not scum, since you've been pretty outspoken. Plus I consider hp[leaves] scummier at the moment, so I'll

Unvote: Kairyuu

and downgrade you to a FoS.

MSSK

: what does strike you as interesting so far, if not the things I cited? Is there any way I can get more than a few sentences?

[Illumina]

Vi: no, I've had the note from the start -- Kairyuu called me out on fosing him earlier in the game, due to how I read one his posts. That's what all this is about.

The fact that Kairyuu wants to lynch me based on this way overdrawn argument is starting to become exasperating.

I am not trapped in any argument.

I've said this before, and I love how Tar doesn't think I'm frustrated enough. Just because I'm not swearing or getting as snippy as tajo does not mean I'm not frustrated. If Kairyuu wants to continue his stance, its for the rest of the town to decide if it has any merit.

Tar: ??? I know Kairyuu's argument is frivolous. Do you really want the thread getting bogged down with the two of us repeating

the same things

over and over? Kairyuu asks something new, I'm all over it. All he's been doing is repeating his logic over and over, parroting that how I read his post was impossible.

And sorry, but the particulars of my dissatisfaction with MSSK should be pretty obvious: he's dodging and refusing to contribute anything. Me saying "I'm dissatisfied with MSSK's lack of content" rather than "I'm not impressed with MSSK" goes without saying, and is a little on the pedantic side. Why are you reading that as a scum tell?

Unfortunately, hp not responding lately and MSSK's refusal to participate makes this the only issue I can really respond to (besides the argument between Vi and tajo, which I still hold the same stance on for now. Vi: assuming tajo wanted to try and confirm people using a different approach, how would that be advantageous to scum? Is it just the apparant contradiction that makes you suspect him, or is there another element?)

[Illumina]

I can tell you're having a lot of fun, just be sure to get your facts straight. To repeat myself: you're wrong because you refuse to recognize that I misread your post. You consider that an impossibility, therefore I must be scum. Alternatively, I'm telling you it's true, and it's on the very likely side of the spectrum.

^ That's it. That's what we're fighting about. You're saying I "backed down" like I conceded defeat, but I've rested my case. You're backing away from the debate by refusing to address the core issue above and taking every opportunity to get a lynch wagon started on me with leading language.

Kairyuu, think about this: how many times in an average mafia game do you think people misread posts by mistake?

Moving on...

I'd like to know:

is there anyone who began the game without the note?

If there are any townies who didn't, it might shed more light on hp[leaves].

I also agree with Vi, MSSK ought to be pressured more. As it is, his meta is not helping the town. MSSK: are you sure you don't consider any of the debates going on right now relevant to the game? What's your take?

I'm going to read up on tajo's stance more, and I'll post about it tomorrow morning.

[Illumina]

I agree with the discussion above, it doesn't seem likely that Nat would be pro-town.

And yeah, I know I was going to post about Vi/tajo earlier. I intend to.

Tajo, how do you reconcile this:

I never said scum didnt get the list.

With this:

Also, I dont think HP is scum. HP would have to be the dumbest player ever to have posted that as scum. Scum would usually join the trend.

I do think that scum didnt get the list

or that prob scum knows there is a list but no more.
WIFOM layers, I know, but I like to think in the most probable situation.

Do you think it's possible that scum didn't receive and note

and

hp isn't scum?

[Illumina]

Kairyuu:
In answer to your question, I wanted the debate dropped because it seemed frivolous at the beginning, and I've seen town get distracted and derailed by such long, sustained arguments before, to their detriment. However: I admit, your reasons for continuing are technically sound, even if I doubt the value of continuing. I can certainly see you're not planning to stop, so I will continue. Btw, I do see the value in making people take a stance. That said, I can't decide if you're opportunistic scum who's latched on like a piranha, or really zealous town, and its bothering me.

If there's another relevant question I'm missing, please ask it again. I don't mean to ignore anything (since I am going to the effort of continuing this debate, after all) I just don't see what else you're asking.

malthusis: your sentence in 175 was a bit confusing. Are you suggesting that the note has little to do with alignment, or the other way around?

MSSK: you have yet to answer my question from earlier.

MSSK: are you sure you don't consider any of the debates going on right now relevant to the game? What's your take?

tajo: it sure seemed like you asserted scum didn't get the list. It sounds like you consider Vi scum, is that about right? Also, what's your current stance on the note? Do you think scum began with it, or no?

(Also, on the thesis topic, I had the opportunity to write a 12 page final paper on Ghost in the Shell for my Gothic Lit class. It was an enjoyable paper to write, and I don't usually say that.)

[Illumina]

FoS: MSSK

. Tar has admitted that his information on lynching Nat could be a ruse on Nat's part, and that's certainly a possibility. This is a mind screw game, Nat playing tricks with the role PM would not indicate Tar is scum.

[Illumina]

MSSK: how many other games are you playing in right now? For what you proposed to make sense, you'd have to have "selectively" read all of Tar's posts, in addition to forgetting Nat is a bastard mod (and the name of this game).

[Illumina]

I'll be travelling tomorrow, so I won't be able to post until late tomorrow or tuesday.

Before I go: MSSK, I don't believe you. You selectively misread Tar's posts, if you thought your plan made sense from a town perspective. I'd like to know your thought process, there.

Also, forbiddanlight, what do you think of the debate between myself and Kairyuu, and between Vi and tajo? (Just a general impression is sufficient -- after traitor mafia, I'm interested in your take on things =p.)

[Illumina]

Back from my short V/LA.

MSSK: that's not much to go on. Were you power-skimming Tar's posts?

forbiddanlight: who else would you go for today, if not Nat?

[Illumina]

Isacc: Welcome to the game! What's your take on the debates between tajo and Vi, and myself and Kairyuu? And who's your pick for scum so far? (Malthisis, can I ask you the same questions?)

Also, why is Battle Mage still on the vote count?

Vote: Battle Mage

, for testing purposes.

[Illumina]

For my part, I'm not sure Kai had cause to jump on my mistake like he did in the first place. In my defense, I had two good reasons to ask Kai to drop the argument: first, he was beating a dead horse, since we had both laid out our arguments fully. Second, I've seen town get bogged down and distracted by sagas of long quote analysis that are more quibbling between the participants than informative, and this game is complicated enough without that. You can judge whether that's evasive or not.

Also, regarding hp: he did demonstrate that he possessed the note. Btw, do you favor a Nat lynch?

[Illumina]

How in the world did he do that?
Why are you jumping at defending him?

? Really? I'm pointing out something relevant you seem to have missed: in post 121, hp said he could post the note's name to confirm he had it. Reading your post 276, I wasn't sure if you had realized that. If this counts as "jumping to defend hp", then just lynch me now.

FoS: Isacc and Vi

for being a little opportunistic.

Also, it'd be nice to get some thoughts from you before the end of d1, forbiddanlight. A lot has happened, and I don't really know how you stand on anything. You look like you're deliberately trying to coast (whether you really are or not -- I know how it can be).

[Illumina]

Tar: Okay, here's the story from my perspective. In 51, Kairyuu says:

I would prefer a straight origin massclaim. I will, of course, stop it once I have the information that I need.

I propose Tar to start, because I think we may not need any more than his claim.

The idea of Kairyuu controlling a massclaim didn't sit well with me, so I respond in 103 by saying:

FoS: Kairyuu for wanting to control the claim that way -- we don't know what your motives are, and that's too much power in one person's hands.

In 105, Kairyuu accuses me of not reading the thread, since he argues that his post was crystal clear and couldn't be misinterpreted. Starting in his 114, he tries to box me in using his logic that reading his post any other way is impossible. Naturally, I respond by arguing that it's common for people to read posts in ways not intended by their authors. Kairyuu responds that there's no way this could be possible for his particular post. I respond by urging that it is possible. Kairyuu insists it isn't. Etc. Etc.

At this point, we were starting to get some low activity, which tends to happen when long quote wars are generated to make a point. Kairyuu and I were essentially stonewalling on one issue, and I thought the entire line of argument was an overreaction. So, I suggested we drop the matter. Kairyuu didn't want to do this, citing that my reactions were helpful and allowed the town to take sides. Sounds reasonable, except that we weren't generating any new content to take sides over, just locking horns over the original issue. I still feel that Kairyuu's focus on that one thing is unhelpful, and probably helped generate the low activity we're having now (something I've seen happen before, and wanted to avoid).

It seemed like only when you started loosing steam (and started having people against you) did you concede your point.

The only thing I've conceded is that Kairyuu's argument was tiresome, and unhelpful because it was an overreaction to something trivial (ie, my misreading his post, then correcting myself). I have no meta on him, so its hard for me to distinguish between him being opportunistic scum or very overzealous town (which I've encountered before). Either way, he made a big deal out of something that really wasn't.

without really providing a whole lot of great reasoning.

For most of the game, Kairyuu's argument was, "It's impossible that you could have misread my post. Now stop evading and try to convince me you misread my post." What other reasoning is there, besides the truth that I misread his post? Naturally, any response I made got interpreted as "being trapped in my own argument".

Also, Isacc, let's get something straight. In your 276, you
1) found it unlikely that hp suddenly remembered he had the note
2) didn't consider it very likely that hp was scum and didn't have the note
3) didn't have a strong belief hp was the gman
Given this, I wasn't sure if you had noted hp's post, and wanted to point it out since you had just replaced in. At any rate, that post shows that he probably has the note now (via scumbuddy, by virtue of starting with it, aliens, etc.). Explain how pointing out a relevant fact counts as defending him -- He has proven his note knowledge, unless you think he's bluffing. You didn't take that into account, so I thought you had missed it.

[Illumina]

Kairyuu: In your post 114, all the options you presented suggested that I was scummy for some reason or another. None of them reflected the possibility that I could be town who misread your post. Probably because you don't consider that possible, as I've been saying for pages. That's how you tried to box me in.

The original point was a small matter. However, it did not stay limited to that for long.

You've argued that I tried to step out of the spotlight (which I've addressed), and more recently you've said that I defended hp. If there was anything else, I missed it, please elaborate. (I've also addressed the "defending" hp thing, which is pretty silly).

Also, I see your point about persistent inactivity this game, that's reasonable. However, I really don't think large quote wars help, unless there's something of value to take sides on. Whether that's the case here is another thing we're contending.

-----------------------

We are probably close to deadline, so we should try to narrow down the best play for today. Here are my impressions on each player:

forbiddanlight

: Hard to read one way or the other, because there's not much content. This needs to change.

hp [leaves]

: Seems clear he either had the note or received it from a scumbuddy. So it all comes down to the likelyhood of scum being able to daytalk, and if we believe that he forgot to check the note until under pressure. I'd say he's slightly more likely to be scum than town, but I couldn't say with confidence either way. Lynching him might be a good way to generate information.

Kairyuu

: I can see him as town or scum, to be honest. Not too sure.

Kinetic

: Seems aware and protown.

MafiaSSK

: Would strike me as scum, except he has a meta of being this way. /agree with Tar, investigate/vig would be a good solution.

populartajo

: He looks a like a player who hypothesizes in the thread, which has caused some people to jump on him for his ideas. I thought this was benign at first, but his waffling on hp and the note issue looks suspicious. He also hasn't contributed to the discussion as much as I'd like, most of his time is spent defending himself.

Malthusis

: Is floating underneath the radar, for the most part. This needs to change.

Isacc

: Not sure if the tendency to avoid firm conclusions (that Tar pointed out) is necessarily scummy, since I often do that as town by virtue of not being that sure. He has been a little opportunistic, though, which makes me a little suspicious.

Tarhalindur

: Not sure I buy his logic regarding myself or Isacc completely, but otherwise seems protown.

veerus

: I don't view his statement regarding safeclaims to be a slip, since it's reasonable to assume the presence of safeclaims in a game run by Nat. His posts on hp might be of interest later, since he seemed eager to redirect attention back to hp after people were discussing Nat etc. a little more (see posts 242 and 293 for examples). However, this could be a null tell, who knows. Currently I don't have much of a read on him either.

Vi

: Hmm. Vi seems like a tough person to get a read on. My impression of him in this game is that he's a wee bit on the opportunistic side, like Kairyuu. If he's scum, he's playing well so far. His post 94 (where he votes tajo) almost sounds as if he's trying to start a wagon, but this could be legitimate as town also. No real read, yet.

Nat

: I sort of think we should call his bluff. It does have risks, though, so I'd also be okay with someone else for today.

--------

Not sure who to go for yet, I'll try and make up my mind soon.

Nat: How are you both? What's the origin of said princess?

Also, do we know why Battle Mage remains in the votecount? Could be extremely relevant, if it isn't a mistake on Nat's part.

[Illumina]

You're a good debater, Kairyuu, sorry to see you leave the game. Good luck with RL.

[Illumina]

Depending on Nat's flip, that will also give us significant information on Tar.

How?

[Illumina]

If we find out instead that lynching Nat is a very good thing, this is bad news for Tar.

I disagree, and MSSK and I had this debate previously.

I take it for granted that Nat could be lying (because this is mind screw, and because he's a bastard mod). If this is true, Nat lying (for whatever modly reason) doesn't say much about Tar one way or the other. Unless I'm missing something?

[Illumina]

Interesting...

We're talking about Tar's information

That information came from Nat, and this is a mind screw game. So, the possibility of Nat lying is exactly what we're talking about. However, it doesn't seem to matter in light of the above.

[Illumina]

Whoa, crazy night.

I'm with Vi atm, I want to know forbiddanlight's thinking.

Tar, what do you mean by IIoA?

[Illumina]

I'd also like to continue, there are still a lot of unknowns in this game. (I'll vote for fl when we want the day to end.)

Also, this confused me:

That's not even counting the fact you dont have a lynch tomorrow

Does that mean the town doesn't have a lynch today, or that we had two night phases in a row...? Who does the "you" refer to, here?

[Illumina]

FoS: MSSK and Malthusis

. I will vote Mal if he doesn't start posting content.

MSSK: How do you feel about forbiddanlight's actions? Also, when *exactly* did you become aware that forbiddanlight had claimed scum? And who's the least scummy right now?

veerus: besides MSSK, who's the most scummy to you?

[Illumina]

EBWODP: Just noticed something. Isacc, how do you know there's only one scum left?

[Illumina]

I'm here, but waiting for Tar to respond.

MSSK: can you be more specific when you say forbiddanlight was being really scummy before you realized she had claimed scum? If it wasn't her admission that she was scum, what was it?

tajo: who's least and most scummy to you right now?

[Illumina]

Here are my thoughts atm:

Right now I'd put veerus, MSSK and Isacc at the top of my scum list.

Isacc's 251 was interesting, because he seems to be doing the splits between suspecting Vi and tajo equally when I asked him to weigh in on their debate, taking care to avoid firm conclusions.

Recently I also found his 354 worth noting: right after Tar makes his case against f-light, Isacc goes to lengths to portray Tar as the G-man, as if he wants to shift direction away from f-light and onto Tar. Note that he doesn't talk about f-light at all, here.

His 361 is really interesting to me, because he seems less pleased than normal after f-light claims scum. It's like he grudgingly admits that lynching f-light is the best play, even though he'd rather have headed in a different direction (but makes sure to emphasize that Tar is the next-best choice). Between this and his 354, it looks like he was trying to run interference for f-light.

veerus: I have some notes on him (mostly regarding him trying to redirect back to hp in weird ways), but I agree with most of Tar's analysis so far. For me, f-light trying to make Tar look silly for calling him out on safeclaims is the most incriminating.

MSSK is hard to read due to his anti-town meta, but hammering f-light prematurely and not realizing she had claimed scum seems pretty dubious. Plus, there's the awkward and scummy way he tried to launch a case on Tar earlier, before we lynched Nat.

I'm torn between Isacc and veerus right now, MSSK is trailing behind them. I'd like to see a claim from Isacc, though.

I probably won't be able to post again until tomorrow, but I'll see what I can do.

[Illumina]

Got out of lab early~

I reread a bit, and I think we should actually kill Nat today. If there's even a chance he's mafia with perfect knowledge of the game, it would be highly unwise to leave him alive. He was willing to use his perfect knowledge to block a mafia kill, and now that Kinetic's posts have disappeared, it isn't exactly a good sign for town.

Vote: Nat

.

[Illumina]

Please ask for replacement, then.

[Illumina]

Well, at any rate, what does everyone think of lynching Nat today?

[Illumina]

URoEK: keep in mind that Kinetic's posts were retroactively deleted with some sort of ability. (He was a beloved mafia godfather, whatever that means)

[Illumina]

Could those still here discuss who we should have hammer? Just so the game doesn't completely stagnate.

(Most of my reasoning is on page 18, I think)

[Illumina]

Vote: Nat.

URoE: Could you back up those opinions of yours?

[Illumina]

MSSK is most likely town.

Tar is prolly scum.

Let's lynch Nat.

K, Cool?

What leads you to these conclusions? If you've read the game, let's see some evidence. Also; did something change that you now suspect me, when you didn't mention me in the post above? Are you suggesting I'm the Gman...? It's hard to respond to your thoughts when you don't give any reasoning at all.

[Illumina]

The case against Nat can be found on page 18 (in my post 444 and earlier in Tar's big post on veerus). Basically, he's extremely dangerous if there's even a chance he could be scum with perfect knowledge of the game.

URoE: You're being too vague. Please point to specific posts so we can see what you're seeing.

I agree with tajo, not sure voting for a role is going to get us anywhere.

[Illumina]

URoE: I haven't found Tar's posts that hard to understand. I also don't have the meta-knowledge you might, since I haven't played any other games with him. If he's scum, though, he's already bussed two of his buddies, including the godfather. Kinetic was killed D1, too, I think, so that's awfully bold bussing.

[Illumina]

I dunno, just seems like veerus is singularly interested in starting a wagon on Tar: look at his 453, 462, 470, and 495 (this one in particular). It's almost like each one gets more desperate. I still favor veerus for hammering, today.

[Illumina]

That's correct, Nat is at L-1. I'm going to

Unvote: Nat

so that we can have veerus hammer.

veerus: you think Tar is scum with FL and Kinetic? I've said this before, but that's a little hard to believe. You're saying he bussed both of his buddies that early in the game? Given this, I think you're just desperate to kill off the scum detector that's been a thorn in your side.

[Illumina]

I'm okay with having Isacc hammer.

[Illumina]

Isacc: the problem with wanting to kill Tar because Nat said it might be a good idea is that he could be mafia with perfect knowledge of the game. He did the same as town before, and he may have taken over Kinetic's spot. That's why we're lynching him today.

I still favor either veerus or Isacc hammer today. Tar has shifted around a lot, but he's also caught both scum, if the 4-2-2 is to be believed. Let's make a choice before deadline, though, people.

[Illumina]

Is there a chance we can act before deadline?

[Illumina]

Excellent. Thanks, M-M.

Well, I'd be happy with either a veerus or Isacc hammer today.

[Illumina]

You've been on my scum list since my post 436 for other reasons, but basically yes.

veerus: you think Tar is scum with FL and Kinetic? I've said this before, but that's a little hard to believe. You're saying he bussed both of his buddies that early in the game? Given this, I think you're just desperate to kill off the scum detector that's been a thorn in your side.

I don't think it's very realistic that scum Tar would have bussed both his buddies like that. You also seem desperate to start a wagon on Tar (who I doubt is scum) based in what I observed in my 499. I haven't seen any defense attempt yet on these points.

[Illumina]

Well, no, anything's possible. But of all the players in this game you could suspect as scum, why prioritize the player who's been responsible for catching a scum per day, including bussing a basically unsuspected godfather? It just doesn't seem very plausible.

[Illumina]

Sounds like a plan.

Vote: Natirasha

.

[Illumina]

I think the best plan is the following.

Nat had a supersaint ability the last time he was playing. We can't trust Nat being town this time around. Why not lynch Nat and use the hammer vote as a second lynch?

That doesn't sound like a bad idea. Since Nat apparently can't vote anyone or support a lynch, he's more dangerous than not, and I think that he may very well be scum, so I think the safest bet is to do that. Takes out a potential scum/danger, as well as the person that we want lynched.

Isacc: do you no longer believe what you said here? You seemed to agree that Nat could be scum, potentially armed with all the information about the game. Now when Nat suggests what town should do (i.e., Tar), you're in favor? What changed?

Also, Isacc, I've stated earlier why I'd be happy with either you or veerus hammering, as you were my main suspects. In that case, it isn't really flip-flopping or flailing as you're trying to make it out to be.

I've never heard of this whack-a-mole mechanic being used, but perhaps we should be voting forbiddanlight so we can verify her alignment. Seems like a guaranteed way to find scum today.