726 - Mind Screw Gaiden, Game Over

[veerus]

I was told to start playing. So here I am... playing...

vote: forbiddanlight

because, well, that's what I do after she does what she does.

[veerus]

Can anyone explain what the origin claim will accomplish?

[veerus]

I suppose I wouldn't be entirely against a name claim, though I doubt it'll accomplish anything. Any name could be either town or scum (plus there are safeclaims) and the few roles that have name information likely don't have enough information or it is misleading/incomplete to break the set up.

[veerus]

Problem of the hour #2:

I suppose I wouldn't be entirely against a name claim, though I doubt it'll accomplish anything. Any name could be either town or scum

(plus there are safeclaims)

and the few roles that have name information likely don't have enough information or it is misleading/incomplete to break the set up.

Wait, how exactly do you know that there are safeclaims? That looks like one hell of a slip to me...

How is it a slip? It's an assumption based on history. All previous MS games included a safeclaim for scum. I see no reason to expect anything different here.

Tar, your #4 & #5 are interesting because I also know that someone from Half-Life is a mod-confirmed non-town. That's why I said I wouldn't be against a name claim and also why I think scum are likely provided a safe name claim ala previous MS games.

Also,

fos: populartajo

for voting me without much reasoning (except using someone else's who didn't even vote me in the first place). In fact, looking at tajo's posts in isolation shows that since the game started, he contributed absolutely NOTHING to the discussion.

[veerus]

Why is Battle Mage still in the vote counts? Copy/paste for the lose? :p

[veerus]

Like what?

[veerus]

ditto

[veerus]

First, I'm pretty sure that hp [leaves] just claimed scum,

I thought the same thing when I read his post.

unvote; vote: hp[leaves]

Also, vote: for Tar to not be replaced.

[veerus]

The claim wasn't a slip and it's absolutely ridiculous that you keep calling it that.

As for the vote for hp.. it's simply a timing issue, I'm afraid. Had he not posted, I would've voted for hp anyway because I read that post and had the exact same thought (no note = scum).

[veerus]

tajo, just checking, you ARE playing in Mind Screw 3, right?

Not that we're allowed to talk about ongoing games, but this really makes you think if he's paying attention there...

[veerus]

I find it hard to believe that it took hp that long to suddenly realize he has the note.

[veerus]

So wait, you're voting me because I assumed there are safeclaims? That seems like a pretty weak reason to me. You say so yourself that you usually give safeclaims to those who are not town. The two MS-like finished games (ms2/b5) I've studied and/or participated in both had safeclaims. As this is another MS game, I will assume there are safeclaims and speak with that assumption in mind until shown otherwise.

The fact that scum can day-talk still does not explain what took hp so long to realize he "had" the mod note.

[veerus]

@tajo: Then maybe you should have specified that when you made your suggestion, or perhaps during the 100 times you were explaining it. I understand your point now, and I have no problem with it. However, given the sudden "realization" that some of the players have had that they had the note, and

Tar's comment on daytalk means that it is highly unlikely that the scum don't have the note

, so I don't think that the information will lead to anything useful.

Umm... what? Because scum likely have the ability to daytalk does NOT imply that they received the note.

[veerus]

1) veerus (58) for what it's worth.

Technically Tar was the first to bring up Half-Life.. I just confirmed it.

[veerus]

So no one finds hp's lack of the note scummy anymore? And many seem to think that lynching the mod is a good idea despite his attempts to egg us on? Hmm... pass.

[veerus]

@SSK:

What do you think of Tarhalindur?
.

I believe he is town though maybe mod-aligned.

mod-aligned sounds like a stretch.. i could believe a neutral though, given the specific information he has about the mod

[veerus]

Any idea on the deadline structure of Nat's games? We passed the first test, so if his is anything like Tar's, we have what, a week before the deadline?

[veerus]

what are your notes on hp? given all the linking you've noted, i'm surprised he's not on your "scum team" list

[veerus]

veerus - Again, a player with shorter posts than normal, and IIRC I laid a case out against him earlier. Expect more on this front when I actually have sleep.

Your case is that I slipped up by assuming that mafia has safeclaims. Since the assumption is reasonable given past MS games, your case, to me, is ridiculous and inane.

[veerus]

I'd also like to

Vote Isaac

as he's the one who I find most suspicious.

Suspicious how?

Someone who claims SK in the first post of every game would NOT pass on an opportunity to actually be one whether it's him himself or a role in his game.

Welcome to WIFOM City, population you.

[veerus]

unvote; vote: Natirasha

This is a deadline vote. There doesn't look to be a convincing case on anyone at this moment and it's highly unlikely that one will surface in 2-4 days. As much as I hate the idea, I'd rather lynch the mod than no one at all.

[veerus]

doesn't really matter... we technically would've been at deadline by now if Nat didn't have whatever it is blow up on him

[veerus]

what the .........

[veerus]

From what wiki tells me, "beloved" is generally a pro-town role and her death skips the next day phase. Does this mean that Kinetic's death skips mafia's actions in the next twilight?

Any theories on the 3? With 1 mafia down, it stands to reason that 2 is mafia and 4 is town (as the majority). It's too many for a cult, so I'm thinking there's another neutral or scum faction floating around. Maybe robots? Zombies? (Nat's a fan of L4D looks like)

[veerus]

Wow, thanks fl for fucking up the game. I told myself that I'd never enter a game you're in after that other game where you totally went berserko on everybody (the source of your ridiculous sig) and made the game less fun but you seem to join all the fun games that I want to play in so it is what it is.

This is mind-screw which sometimes implies bastard mod which often implies that some crazy and unfair shit will go down. Live with it or don't sign up for games with a high chance of bastard modding.

I'd like the game to continue as there seem to be a lot of unusual roles - something I've come to expect and love from MS games.

And since FL has admitted to being scum, this is a no-brainer:

vote: forbiddanlight

[veerus]

FURTHER, you have been in at least one game I know of with me and didn't complain. Do you just choose to selectively recall games? I don't like it when someone can't realize a game is just a game, and after the game we all kiss and make up. I didn't "ruin" that game any more than I "ruined" this one. Yes, I got a little emotional. It happens to everyone. Live with it.

That was the first game I played with you where you blew up. I think we've been in either 3 or 4 games together and you have gotten "a little emotional" twice now for a roughly 50% blow up rate while everyone else I've played with more than once has a 0% blow up rate.. makes me wonder how you define "everyone". Regardless, I obviously won't avoid a game because you're in it, but since the first game wasn't an isolated incident, I figured I'd get emotional right back at you. I'm sure you understand.

[veerus]

I thought Beloved just skipped the next day outright, instead of acting as an auto-governor. But whatever.

I was hoping that happened for only mafia.. I guess we have to wait for the vote count to find out if there was a lynch or if we have to start over.

[veerus]

So wait.. despite FL's admission, is she actually scum? I assume so, but the mod reveal doesn't specify.

[veerus]

Ah ok, thanks.

So Nat, what're the magic numbers now? Is it 3-1-3? Why did Vi commit suicide? Did the temptress seduce him? Why did Kinetic's posts disappear? Does it have to do with the wiretapper's death?

[veerus]

I was giving SSK the benefit of the doubt, but he sure isn't helping maintain that mindset...

FOS: MafiaSSK

[veerus]

veerus: besides MSSK, who's the most scummy to you?

Malthusis for not posting.. anything.
Tar for being all over the board.. that may be his play style but I've never played with him before.
And I'm still not sold on hp being town..

[veerus]

This is mind-screw which sometimes implies bastard mod which often implies that some crazy and unfair shit will go down. Live with it or don't sign up for games with a high chance of bastard modding.

Yeah, except there is a difference between bastard moddery and just plain bullshit. I'd like it if you'd

read what Tar had to say about it

. Now, if the game's set up shows that I was wrong, well, I'll apologize. But until then, I don't regret my actions.

Did anyone else catch this? Is this a slip implying that Tar saw the quicktopic in question?

vote: Tar

[veerus]

Why would we? You're town aligned. Although it probably would've gotten more attention if it didn't get overshadowed by scum claiming scum.

But since you asked.. how/why did you come back?

[veerus]

Where is everybody?

[veerus]

we need a mass prod here... is nat's situation still iphone-only? Who's the backup mod again?

[veerus]

1) I was not disappointed in FL's claim, thus my vote on her

2) A scum claim the way she did it was totally inappropriate. And that forced the exchange which referred to an out of game incident. I'm having a hard time understanding why a player with your experience would jump on what is obviously an out-of-game interaction (should've been super obvious after even FL suggested to take the conversation off-line). Nice OMGUS attack though after I pointed out FL's slip mentioning you as her scum-buddy. I'm surprised no one else has said anything about it.

[veerus]

This is probably the biggest attempt at strawmanning that I've seen on this site in my time here. What you've presented here is nothing but a bunch of weak, poorly supported arguments.

Now, let's just get this over with. I suspect you're trying to trap me into using this line of reasoning to pull a "and how is this any different from your behavior earlier?". If so, nice try - the big difference is that I have difficulty seeing how "I'm assuming the scum have safeclaims" logically leads to "the scum have safeclaims". See below for details.

The two phrases are the same thing to me. Since I'm ASSUMING that scum have safeclaims, then TO ME that means that they HAVE safeclaims. Yes, it really IS that simple no matter how you twist it.

2) If you honestly believe that this is a slip (can't rule this out, but I doubt it), then nothing I say is going to change anything, because I have no way of knowing what forbiddanlight was thinking when she made that post. In addition, even if you were interpreting MY post, merely explaining a possible pro-town reason is unlikely to change your interpretation. Hence, there's no possible defense to your charge other than showing an alternate possible interpretation (which I have now done - see above), and no point in me dwelling on it further until such time as you give a detailed explanation of how my interpretation does not meet the facts.

I'm following the facts whereas you're only speculating. FL said that Nat's comments in the quicktopics thread pissed her off. Then, in response to my post, she said that it's bullshit and implied that my opinion may change if I'd "read what Tar had to say about it." Now, knowing FL's tendency to blow up and let her emotions take her in another direction, I'm inclined to believe she mentioned your name unintentionally.

I suppose I wouldn't be entirely against a name claim, though I doubt it'll accomplish anything. Any name could be either town or scum (plus there are safeclaims) and the few roles that have name information likely don't have enough information or it is misleading/incomplete to break the set up.

Okay, let's break this post down, because it's damn incriminating.

1) Veerus says outright that there are safeclaims. He's claimed that he simply assumed that there were safeclaims given that all past Mind Screw games have had them. This is, admittedly, possible. The problem is the wording: not a statement that he assumes there are safeclaims, not a statement that G-Man *must* have a safeclaim (which I would agree with - I would not allow an anti-town player with a blatantly obvious role name to be trapped into a counterclaim). Instead, veerus makes a blanket claim that there are safeclaims (which, upon looking at it, also implies *more than one* - which is a shaky inference at best).

See my earlier comment on this: since there are more than one scum, it stands to reason that there must be multiple safeclaims.

2) What's more, veerus himself also points out the reason why there need not be more than one safeclaim: role names (with the exception of G-Man, though I will not fault him for not pointing this out) are unlikely to be indicative of town or scum. (Note that the main reason I asked for a role claim was on the off chance G-Man would be stupid enough to claim his real role, since he's the exception.) I've been increasingly leery of giving Mafia safeclaims lately, instead trying to give them role names that do not make it obvious they are scum. Natirasha knows this (from Mind Screw II and LoZ: OoT at the very least - a grand total of one Mafioso in those two games had a safeclaim). Veerus should probably have known this - among other things, Ocarina of Time was finished by the time he posted this post.

So you agree with me that safeclaims are possible and yet you attack me for it?? Also, just because OOT finished doesn't mean I've read it. In fact, I haven't. As for MS2, I skimmed through it a few months ago and I barely remember it and only reference it when I need to look something up. In this case, the knowledge that there WERE safeclaims in MS1 and MS2 was enough for me to make that assumption. I didn't count how many had what. This just shows how weak your argument is if you have to base it on the assumption of how lazy/dedicated I am to this site.

3) The most decisive point - despite pointing out what is wrong with a massclaim, veerus doesn't fully oppose it. Instead, he says, effectively, that he doesn't like it but could be convinced to go along with it. I'm not completely sure why veerus would say this as town; apathy, maybe, or a belief that it wouldn't hurt the town to massclaim... but I'm reading an unwillingness to commit to a position there.

My comments were based on the fact that I knew G-Man was anti-town and from Half-Life. Thus I wasn't entirely against the idea but I didn't really think it would get us anywhere since that would be too easy.

1) Mind Screw II had enough roles without safeclaims (2 Mafiosos) that this alone doesn't convince me - especially given that there's only one non-town that *has* to have a falseclaim and veerus implied multiple falseclaims. I've had a clear tendency towards giving scum non-incriminating role names instead of safeclaims lately; I suspect Nat has done the same.

You're rehashing your earlier argument so I will direct you to my earlier answer. Except that I never mentioned falseclaims, only safeclaims, though I suppose, to me, they're the same thing since I still don't fully understand the difference. Actually, the mere fact that you're mentioning falseclaims when I never said anything about them makes me think that you're scum who just looked at his role pm, saw the word and misused it. Since you've been hanging on my alleged "slip" the whole game, I'd like to point out that this is a MUCH bigger slip on your part.

2) You're right that scum were almost certainly provided with a safeclaim. Why do you then assume that they have more than one?

When did I say this? When I say "safeclaims", I refer to multiple people. I thought that was obvious, sorry if that's apparently not the case.

3) veerus's vote at this time was a random vote. Why FoS instead of vote? (Note that his reasoning was not invalid at time of post - poptajo only became obvtajotown later - and that I consider OMGUS a nulltell.)

You answered your own question. While OMGUS is mostly a nulltell, it may have been a jumpy scum. Such weak connection in no way deserves a vote.

This entire post has been a display of some highly shaky reasoning on your part, Tar. It worries me that Isacc has has hopped on this wagon considering I was getting a townie vibe from him before.

Also, as long as I'm here...

<snip>

Seriously? No, seriously tar? You should know better. I'm pretty sure Nat was trying to stay faithful to your modding practice.

<snip>

Hey look at the known scum defending veerus. Also note the dismissive, even disdainful attitude in said defense.

Really? At the time you didn't even blink an eye at this comment because you knew it made perfect sense and FL called you out on that.

[veerus]

Nat asks:

So, really, no one cares that I ressureted myself?

Veerus says:

Why would we? You're

town aligned.

How does Veerus know this? Nat was apparently town aligned when he

died

but that in no way assures that he was resurrected the same way. As others have speculated, it's entirely possible he is scum or at least anti-town now, so how do you know he isn't scum?

Vote: Veerus

.

Hmm.. you make a good point. I did not consider the fact that Nat may not be town-aligned upon his ressurection. Now that I think of it, I'd say it's more likely that Nat is mafia, and maybe even the beloved mafia godfather that Kinetic was whom he replaced apparently. It would also make sense from a "balanced" bastard mod point of view. Nat had used his perfect knowledge to save a townie from getting lynched and now as mafia he can use his perfect knowledge to help mafia win.

[veerus]

Since in the past you have made large posts before voting, it seems to me that you voted me primarily based on Tar's weak arguments. And that bothered me.

[veerus]

your backup mod is slacking... make him do it

[veerus]

seriously.. where is everyone?

[veerus]

All I will say in my defense is that my alignment is not the biggest threat to the town. Remember that three-person faction...

Yeah... and that super weak post from Tar....

[veerus]

I would be ok with a Tar lynch. However, I could also be persuaded to lynch Nat however that's a highly WIFOMy argument.

[veerus]

It seems that Tar wanted just about everyone in this game to claim it seems... at least everyone he attacked.

[veerus]

vote: Tar

[veerus]

No, that's a ridiculous notion.

[veerus]

No, that's a ridiculous notion.

Is it anti-town? If not, I don't see why there's any reason to oppose it.

What happens when you reach a lynch count on a player who doesn't exist? It's quite possible that it may be counted as a no-(valid)-lynch and mafia will get a free kill at night. How's that not anti-town? Are you willing to take that chance?

[veerus]

Probably with good reason. At any rate, I will not support this phantom lynch.

[veerus]

And when you find his username, let me know.

[veerus]

Keep in mind, there may be 2 scum groups in the game. He may just have gotten lucky. He's attacked a different person with nearly every other post. Even a blind squrrel finds the nut once in a while.

[veerus]

I'm not sure what to think. Nat's comment and FL's subsequent reaction to it makes me think that there is another faction present. Whether it's another mafia or a cult, I do not know. What do you think about that scenario, Tar?

[veerus]

Let me be more blunt here.

1) Do you think that there is a surviving scum faction with three members in it?
2) Do you think that I am a member of that faction? If so, given that your case relies on me being scum with forbiddanlight, how do you propose that forbiddanlight's group still has three members?

Think carefully about your answers.

1. I don't know as there isn't enough information. It could be a cult or another scum faction or Nat just fucking with us.
2. No, I think you're a member of FL's faction which lost 2 players so far though arguably Nat is back in as Kinetic's role, but that what we'll find out with today's lynch.

And on that note..

unvote; vote: Natirasha

I would like to see you hammer, Tar.

[veerus]

By my count, I'm only the 4th vote on him putting him at L-1

[veerus]

I'm confused.. 4-2-2 at that stage would've made no sense since we had 9 players. I think this is mod WIFOM in an attempt to cover his ass since he is now part of the mafia.

[veerus]

You could hammer, I suppose... Though, currently, I'd prefer that tajo hammers. He's been lurking the whole game. At least Tar contributes.

[veerus]

So wait, your reasoning for wanting me to hammer is because I think Tar is scummy? This, to me, screams of the Tar's chainsaw defense scumtell. Based on that, I actually think you should hammer. I'd be ok with tajo, the lurker, hammering as well. Tar is a distant third at this point since he actually contributes.

[veerus]

what's the vote count? FL should reveal partner (it's in her best interest since she'd end the game quicker) and should hammer Nat/MM.

vote: Tar

for the investigation, and btw, i didn't use any abilities last night, but thanks for playing.

[veerus]

In other news... I'm torn. As a player, I want forbiddanlight to claim scum partner on the off chance she's telling the truth. As a moderator, I don't, since then, in order to be even remotely consistent about my scumbuddy claim policy, I would have to permaban forbiddanlight from my games. (Also, scumbuddy claims have ALWAYS been modkillable in my games, so it's a safe bet they are modkillable here as well. Not that I would necessarily be adverse to a forbiddanlight modkill.)

But if a role is designed to turn from mafia to town, then it's the fault in the design, not the player... Right?

[veerus]

Yes, and lynch the mod.

vote: mm

[veerus]

FL could just come back and hammer and then she won't need a replacement.

[veerus]

what the..... is prinny vassal town, mafia or some new faction? Sounds culty to me. Which means that Vi is likely of the same alignment. Do we want to lynch her or go after mafiassk?

[veerus]

4-2-2

Hmm.

Alive, Day 2:

4 - Town, fairly clearly. (presumably Tarhalindur, Isacc, veerus, UROE)
2 - Mafia (forbiddanlight, MafiaSSK)
2 - Neutral (poptajo, Vi?)
1 - Not a Faction (Illumina*)

Dead, Day 2:
2 - Town (Natirasha**, zwetschenwasser)
1? - Mafia? (Kinetic?)
1 - Neutral (hp [leaves])

Tar, how does this theory jive with the fact that you think Kinetic is still alive ala-Lain ability?

Anyway, I agree with your plan. We lynch mssk while you block tajo. I disagree that cult is more dangerous. If tajo uses an ability to revive players, Tar's block would prevent that. While mssk won't be able to kill anyone period.

vote: MafiaSSK

[veerus]

Anyway, I agree with your plan. We lynch mssk while you block tajo. I disagree that cult is more dangerous. If tajo uses an ability to revive players, Tar's block would prevent that. While mssk won't be able to kill anyone period.

vote: MafiaSSK

You really expect a roleblock of a cult-recruiting in Mind Screw Mafia to work?

Is it not an ability? If not, then let's lynch tajo and block you again.

[veerus]

So speaking of which... how did Illumina die then?

[veerus]

If that's the case, then how do we win? Lynch mafia then lynch prinny's? If so, I think that helps your block choice, especially if MafiaSSK is lynched today. As for you being targeted, I wouldn't worry about that. Unless I was roleblocked last night, you now have permanent protection from all night kills on you.

[veerus]

fyi, see sig

[veerus]

Since Tar's theories are largely sound and he's been town, I'm in for the mass claim.

I'm the Engineer from Team Fortress. I can construct 3 different inventions on players and I can only have one of each out at the time. I have had one of them active on myself since day 1 - "sentry guns" - which basically kills whoever targets me not of my alignment. I'm not sure how Nat's action resolutions work but I suspect my constructions are near the bottom.. but if not, this ability may have killed Kinetic on day 1, though I'm not sure why the godfather would be the one doing the killing.

Since Tar was proved town, I placed "dispensers" on him which basically protects him from all kill attempts.

Third ability is a teleporter which is basically a redirect. I've found no use for it yet and thus have not used it.

[veerus]

Tar, you forgot the part where you and I can't be NK'd. I'll go with your read on Jahudo's claim.

vote: Jahudo

[veerus]

see my claim above

[veerus]

/facepalm
If I were scum, would I really claim a redirect that I don't intend to use? Think.

[veerus]

Also, veerus claimed using an archangel ability (makes its target UNK as long as you are alive) on me previously (sometime D5, as I recall).

Actually, since I build "inventions", my role PM does not say anything about them going away if I die.

So if you do convince others to lynch me, I would expect that you'll still have "dispensers" active on you protecting you from NK's, or "kill attempts" as the role PM puts it.

[veerus]

Damn you for being un-night-killable pretty much the whole game.

Not the whole game. Only after when he claimed. I was un-night-killable the whole game.

vote: isacc

just in case

[veerus]

<Construction> Each day, you may build one of the following inventions on another player: Sentry Gun, Dispenser, Teleporter. Only one invention may be on a player at a time. You may only have one of each invention out at one time.

-Sentry Guns will kill the first player not of the constructee’s alignment that targets them each day.

I obviously sentry-gunned myself N1. Though I was kind of surprised to see that a "construction" ability went through before a kill ability.

Tar, why were you so convinced I was scum?

[veerus]

Yes, but I checked with Nat as soon as I got the role and he said that I can build one on myself.

[veerus]

Perhaps a redirect of sorts was in action? What abilities have we not revealed yet?

[veerus]

Or.. MM, mind posting all role PM's and whatever actions (if any) you were aware of from earlier days?

[veerus]

Tar, can you explain why you were so zeroed in on me?