Mini 736 - The Masonry Game Over!

[alcove]

Vote: Max

*hums under breath* Secret Agent Maaaan...

Plus, inconspicuous one-syllable name? That's just trying too hard.

[alcove]

Second-votes in the past two pages (seems liek it could start discussion, so...):

Vote: Caboose

semi random vote for : Caboose

(skitzer changed vote to Empking)

Vote: zwetschenwasser

Vote: Zwets

Vote: Empking

Vote: Empking

-----

We should probably have a discussion about game mechanics or something to pull the game out of this lagging random vote stage. I'm not sure what to say, though. I've never played in a game with recruiting masons before. Any thoughts on how this one should be played optimally?

Should I dig up questions from my newbie game? Or does anyone want to volunteer some?

[alcove]

Can we assume we have a traditional can-kill-can't-recruit mafia? Additionally, cults, if they exist, would be anti-town?

I thought the goal of a cult was the extinction of any non-cult members (aka anti-town).

Not sure if those second random votes really mean anything, since none of them even come close to putting anyone in danger.. and if you check to see if someone is voting your intended target before random voting yourself, your vote is no longer entirely random.

Well, are random votes

really

random?
In any case, anything to start a discussion*.

*It's rapidly becoming my official policy on this site (I, uh, get bored easily otherwise -cough- short attention span -cough-)

[alcove]

Who is voting for who? put up a list!

The mod already gave a vote count. Read the thread. -.-

[alcove]

Questions?


1. What do you think of "lynch all liars" as a principle?
2. What do you think is the most reliable "Scumtell"? Along those lines, what is the scummiest thing you think a player could do? (is the answer to the two questions the same?)
3. What do you think is the best, most effective way for town to play?
4. What, in your opinion, is a particularly egregious mistake that townies often make when they start playing?


Finally
5. Do you think that answering these questions will be helpful in starting discussion, and do you have any helpful question to suggest?

[alcove]

1. Lynch most liars.
2. We shouldn't be listing things for scum specifically not to do.
2. We shouldn't be listing things for scum specifically to do.
4. We shouldn't be listing things for scum specifically not to do.
5. This is not a newbie game.

This is way worse than what RF tried to do.

vote: alcove

.

Eh. Sorry.

[alcove]

What was the point of question 5, alcove?

I didn't know whether my questions would be helpful for moving discussion along or not, so I asked whether you thought they would if anyone had better ones to suggest.

I'm aware the questions were not the best conversation starters ever, but they were better than what we had going. And they did spark

something

, so...

I did not consider that some of them might give scum useful information, and for that I apologize. My bad.

[alcove]

EBWOP:

so I asked whether you thought they would, and if anyone had better ones to suggest.

[alcove]

Anyways, this thread is still relatively devoid of content and I think I broke my n key.

Well, my d key has been broken for months. I've gotten used to pressing the pressure-sensitive little circle instead of a nice, clicky key.

[alcove]

alcove's questions aren't good, but the fact that he didn't ask them to anyone specifically is worse.

Vote alcove

(Since it looks like this is going to keep happening until I point it out, I'd just like to mention that I'm a she.)

I'm transitioning from the dynamics of a newbie game to a real game (That newbie games apparently give you bad habits seems counter-productive to me, but that's not the point). My intention at the time of posting the questions was to get a discussion going. Apparently it was not a good idea. I had not thought it out very deeply, I just wanted to leave the random vote stage because I'm not good at extrapolating anything useful based on people's private jokes at each other. I've already apologized for the mistake.

---

In the meantime, empking isn't making a lot of sense.

[alcove]

I personally don't fully believe Alcove, because I don't think he would have truly not realized how scummy his questions actually were. And yes, empking is pinging my scumdar.

Actually, she truly did not realize how scummy they were.

Embarrassing confession: I copied them from where I had posted them in my newbie thread. Just ctrl+c, ctrl+v, and then a little bit of editing because questions like "How long have you been playing mafia" seemed ridiculous to transfer.

...It sounds idiotic in retrospect. Gah.

[alcove]

I did refer to myself in third person in order to show that I'm not a he, by the way. But rokovoj already pointed that out (simulpost) so I shouldn't have bothered.

[alcove]

I.. I don't even know how to respond to that.

I do.

vote:Reecer6

Why are you so eager for it to be night?

[alcove]

Well.
I certainly had a lot to mull over when I got back from VLA. O_O

---

Unvote; Vote Empking's Alt

I'm not doing the whole jester WIFOM thing. I have a strong feeling that he's lying about his claim by the way he worded it: He said "the masons will be told that I'm town". He didn't say "the masons will be able to confirm that I'm town." The way I read it is "I'm scum, but I have this awesome ability that once I'm recruited the mod will lie to them and call me town. Behold my awesomeness!"

Besides the aforementioned restating of someone else's role, I also find it suspicious how he voted Empking's alt instead of Empking himself. Immediately afterwards he voted for empking, so this seems to have been a serious post- why the distracting joke vote?

---


While I am impressed by just how idiotically Reecer is managing to play, I am hesitant to lynch him because of his meta for that same idiotic play.

[quote="Mini 735: Bad Times in Kuribonia]
Reecer6, Cop, has been lynched![/quote]

This on Day 1.


On the other hand, he shouldn't have a constant non-expiring get out of jail free card just because he tends to play badly as town.

[alcove]

Dammit forgot the second quotation mark.

EBWOP:

Reecer6, Cop, has been lynched!

This on Day 1.

[alcove]

Reasons to lynch Reecer:

1. He's annoying
2. He's a liability, as proven yesterday
3. If the game becomes LyLo he needs to be gone by then.
4. If we're lucky, he's scum. I think that's unlikely, but only because what kind of scum announces that they have a night action? And seeing as it's Reecer we're talking about, that proves nothing.

Reasons not to lynch Reecer:

1. Lynch could be used more productively in actually catching scum


Suggestion:

Definitely do not quick-lynch Reecer. D1 ended too quickly and unproductively. It makes more sense to try to find other suspicious people besides the village idiot. Later, we can decide whether we have the luxury of a policy vote, albeit a really

satisfying

one.

Oh, and avoid placing people at L-1 if you do not actually want them lynched (i.e. you just want to "pressure them" *cough*notlikeI'mthinkingofanyonespecific*cough*), since Reecer might lynch them for you.


---


Why is zwets giving me empking deja vu? Something about the way his arguments make no sense...

[alcove]

Zwet is odd. I'm not sure if he's actually scummy, but he's freaking weird.

[alcove]

I have almost nothing to say as the two quick claims have left me a bit... Well. Nightfall said it best

Oh dear god, what the heck is going on here...

---

I would like to know why Zwets felt the need to immediately say that Reecer isn't reliable when we asked Reecer to tell us any info he might have had* Is there something you're trying to hide, Zwets?

*By the way, are we certain that's a pro-town thing to do, couldn't that information be pretty useful to scum? Does it in fact benefit us to know more than it benefits them? Nightfall, what were you thinking when you suggested that?

[alcove]

Also, just because Zwet is the recruitee, it doesn't make him confirmed-town. Don't know why that would be a "kill me" sign.

That. That was what I was trying to figure out the words to say. Brain-blockage.

I'm not sure this flood of new info (two pieces=flood? You get my point.) will benefit town, but I don't see how it amounts to waving around kill-me signs.

[alcove]

*By the way, are we certain that's a pro-town thing to do, couldn't that information be pretty useful to scum? Does it in fact benefit us to know more than it benefits them? Nightfall, what were you thinking when you suggested that?

Are you talking about me asking Reecer what he was told when (/if) he recruited Zwets?

Yes.

Considering how reecer and zwets tend to give out information freely (which could be a town tell, i guess) we should probably make sure we actually want the answers to our questions posted.

I can't really think of why it might be anti-town for reecer to say whether he got any confirmation of zwets's status... But your question was worded vaguely enough to give reecer leeway to say more.

[alcove]

Sebguer, you're forgetting self-aligned roles.

[alcove]

...hypothetically, let's say Reecer doesn't answer the question for quite a while.

Is it really a good idea to just sit around waiting for him to deign to speak to us again?

[alcove]

This is just getting sketchier and sketchier.

Anyone who wants to permanently be able to talk to me, pl- No wait.

Bad idea because scum.

What is he trying to say here? Is he implying that he is scum (if so, why is he saying that out loud? Freudian slip?), or is he implying that zwets is scum?

If so, why did you recruit him, Reecer? And how do you know?

Reecer and zwets are both acting suspicious, but Reecer more so, and as time goes by he seems less like stupid town and more like stupid something-else, whatever that is...

Vote: Reecer

[alcove]

Good morning everyone.

Vote: zwets

for hammering his mason recruiter when he knew full well what his role was. I don't buy the "maybe he's a cult recruiter on the side" thing.

I agree.

Especially because he started on that whole weird episode after someone suggested that reecer reveal any information he knew about zwets. yes, reecer's role ended up showing that he didn't get any alignment confirmation* but maybe zwets didn't know that.

certainly his whole role in the lynch was weird and therefore highly suspect.



*(and I agree with whoever said that that was what the mod-flavor suggested... first post, "it is also vital we ensure that all our mason brothers can be trusted" implies we don't know for certain)

[alcove]

I knew he was a mason recruiter, but not if he was town or not.

So what you're saying is that you thought there was a scum mason

recruiter

in the game?

There are so, so many reasons for that not to make sense.

[alcove]

The more I look it over the more fishy zwets seems.

D1 he rushes a lynch.
D2 and he responds incoherently to accusations of said rushing. Seems almost to be panicking.

But zwets hits his peak of bizarre behavior with Reecer. His whole behaviour with reecer is inconsistent and suspicious.

First he defends him, then he votes him for a while, then he unvotes him, then he re-votes him.
He's inconsistent of his opinion of reecer- first he seems to be certain he's town, since he assumes that reecer confirming his recruitment will prove he is town.
But then he tries to delegitimize any information reecer might hypothetically offer by starting to suggest that reecer is scum (very far-fetched). Thus contradicting reecer's supposed ability to confirm he is town. This all leading up to him hammering him early in the day, with a bizarre little post.

We're not getting much out of this day anyway. Bye bye!

A final, smaller inconsistency: At first he acts like he doesn't know reecer's role, not necessarily anti-town simply choosing to conceal information not yet needed... only he then claims recruitee at the drop of a pin. Feels like scum deciding best move.


Zwets, temporarily putting aside how you thought reecer was a scum recruiter, why end the day so early?

vote: zwets

[alcove]

I would be completely happy with a speed lynch today because he should have been yesterday's lynch.

Do you think we are in mylo? I really don't know what to expect in terms of number of scum but I think we should be more cautious. There's a few people I have almost no read on still.

That's a good point. You're right, it pays to be cautious.

So.

unvote

I'm going to sleep (long day, flu, allergic reaction with my stupid contact lens solution, etc). I don't think I want my vote on overnight.

[alcove]

Well, I'd like to put my vote back.
I took it off because I was going away and was worried something major might change to make me reconsider my vote.
This has not been the case. My reason to vote zwets remains the same.

vote: zwets

Zwets is now at L-1. Please claim, zwets.

[alcove]

Vote: alcove

Something about you doesn't seem right. I don't know if it's the way you ride the fence on everything, or the way you took off your vote before going to bed when someone suggested not quicklynching, then woke up and put it back on again after a few posts in between. I can't quite place it, but something about you is off. And

FoS

on Sebguer for reasons that may become apparent later.

When did I ride the fence?

I unvoted because when Jahudo brought up mylo I took a look at the amount of living players alive and got spooked (Someone has since then argued that there was probably no need to worry, personally I don't know what to expect from this size game). The flow of this game so far has tended towards lynches coming really fast out of nowhere, so I felt justified in my concerns over leaving my vote on overnight, when I didn't know what might happen.

But then the game slowed down, a lot. And nothing changed- zwets still seemed

very

scummy- and I wanted my vote back where I thought it was deserved.

---

In general your post voting me and fossing sebguer is a bit strange. You're voting me because... what? Something you "can't place"? And then you fos sebguer but avoid explaining why... how is that useful?

[alcove]

My case on Alcove:

It was kind of BS. I'll give zwets that.

Not in that I fabricated it, but in that I fabricated the REASONS for it.

It mostly is "something I can't quite place." I don't want alcove lynched, because my reasons for voting her are pretty stupid, and I can admit that. I am actually more suspicious of Sebguer, but I don't want to talk about that too much. I just wanted someone to put my vote on besides zwets because I was afraid Caboose was going to drop the hammer. I don't want an Empking-style quicklynch or another unproductive "lynch a stupid pro-town player and then regret it" day. I knew unvoting wouldn't be enough to extend the day. That would just delay the inevitable without really exploring other issues. I knew I would have to put my vote somewhere else. There is something about alcove that I feel uneasy about. I know there is an underlying tangible reason for my gut feeling, and I examined some different ideas. I am aware that none of them quite fit.

Really

now.
How exactly is fabricating BS reasons pro-town?

---

I'm debating between whether you are actually trying to create discussion in new directions, or just trying to distract from the zwets wagon with a BS vote and vague FoS.
I'm willing to go with the first option for now only because in the previous days you've seemed reasonably townie, but IGMEOY, Rest.

[alcove]

I'm going to be V/LA this weekend.

Not sure whether or not to take off my vote again while I'm gone. It doesn't seem like Zwets is going to suddenly look town, and he's already claimed, so I think that if a lynch goes through in my absence I'll probably be fine with it. Plus we're at L-2 and discussing, not voting...

Gah.

For now I think it stays.

[alcove]

Well, I have something fun to tell you all.

3 days ago, I wandered into town looking for my buddies, scum 1 and scum 2. They'd sent a letter to my local Mafia Chapter asking for a bit of backup, because apparently the tiny town they were trying to take over had a bunch of buddies who were really tight and trusted one another. Wouldn't you know that I got that all-time best assignment. You see, your local Mafia members are pretty crafty and secretive and referred to themselves only as "X" and "Y" - I was know to them only as "Z". This was supposed to be an extremely witty reference to early American History, but frankly I didn't find it so amusing. I thought of myself as "Zoro" instead. Much more macho.

So Y said I was supposed to contact him, or see if we could both join the same club or whatnot. Every night I went to someone to check for Y.

So happens that I never found Y. I did, however, manage to narrowly miss bumping into my buddies in the Night. You see, Night 1 the person I investigated got killed, Night 2 the person I investigated got killed*, and Night 3... well, Night 3 I was shocked to discover that the person I had investigated was NOT dead. Wow. Fancy that.

*Not cool, buddies, not cool. I mean, I approve of the killing, just not killign the same people I targeted. Good job getting my psychic brainwaves last night, even if I apparently didn't get yours about, you know, who you are.

I have still not found my beloved contact X. I, by the way, am a

Mafia Agent

---

I'm sure you'd all love to know why I am posting this. Well.

Yesterday technically was mylo. Unfortunately I did not find my buddy last night. Therefore, the game continued, because there was always the possibility that my buddies would accidentally lynch me or (more likely) that I would accidentally lynch my buddies.

This is no longer an issue.

It takes 4 to vote for a lynch, there are only three townies left alive.
It takes 3 to vote for a no-lynch, and there are enough scum around to do that.

Once no-lynch has happened, the game will go to night, where my buddies will proceed to kill one of you in a delightfully gruesome manner. I should know because twice in a row while searching for my partner I had to wade through... gross things. Blood plus alcohol plus turpentine does not smell that great, let me tell you.

If you have a doc, who manages to guess right, we can just repeat this little show tomorrow. If you have a vig, we lose one, you lose one, and you still are at a half and half unwinnable ratio. If you have a cop... well, too late now =)

I apologise to my buddies for forcing them to come out into the open. I urge them to vote no lynch along with me, to get this day over with quickly. But if they'd like, they can simply avoid voting me and wait for this day to reach deadline. Town will still know who they are, though.

Or, if there's a flaw in my clever little plan, they can vote for me. Then we'll be down to two scum who know each-other and two town (although in the process my role PM will be revealed, which does include their role titles if that matters now).


Congratulations to RestFermata and the recently deceased zwets for catching on to my major slips in play. Pity it was too late. MUAHAHAHAHAHAH- cough.


To the success of the XYZ Affair, cheers!

Vote: No lynch

[alcove]

Aw, hi.

I'm sorry if my adding in all that "Agent X" business confused you, I just wanted to suitably spice up a ridiculously epic, game-changing post. =D

By the way.

Out of curiosity.

DID YOU GET MY BREADCRUMBS?

Because, you know, I tried hard.

---

By the way, good game, man. I'm trying to remember whether you being scum even crossed my mind.

[alcove]

...am I getting punked?

You wish.

Although for a town gambit such a post would be insanely awesome, it would require knowing the scumteam set-up and how would that work, exactly?

[alcove]

The reason it would be worthwhile for you to look would be that you would then know not to lynch me unless very necessary. (Bussing me would not have had full bussing benefits, since my death would reveal that you didn't know who I was...)

Worked out anyway, though.

My breadcrumbs, by the way, were:

First post of the game.
That mini-rant about my contact lenses. I mean, my contacts had been giving me trouble... two nights before, though. =D

[alcove]

*hums under breath* Secret Agent Maaaan...

Wow. I really did fail there.
How did I not pick up on that?

I have no excuses for you.
You will have to make some up yourself.

[alcove]

So Rest was right.

I suspected it, mostly because Rest apparently has realllly good instincts.

---

DAY OVER.
...do we get a secret agent dance?
Is that even legal?

[alcove]

that... is a MEAN teaser, caboose O_O

Now I want to know.

Well, not much longer to wait. =D

[alcove]

oh wait, look at that. question answered.

simulposting.

[alcove]

Rest recruited me into her masonry the first night (I'm an infiltrator)and the next night she told me who she was recruiting. And uh, he just happened to die.

Smooooooth, dude. 9_9



wait, so infiltrator doesn't mean you're already placed in the masonry to begin with?

then what's the difference between infiltrator and contact other than contact being special and shiny?


---


if there's a vig+roleblocker, it will be the bad luck equivalent of losing a coin toss HOW many times in a row?

[alcove]

My friend, watching the drama unfold, would like to say:

And yes, SECRET AGENT TEAM was made of 200 proof pure distilled AWESOME. Please drink responsibly.

[alcove]

So, I wish I could see the town's reaction when they read your post, Alcove. It's like a slap in the face. An awesome slap in the face. It needs to be accompanied by maniacal laughter.

MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
AHAHAHAHAAAAAHAHAHA
AAAAAHAHAHAH
AHA

HAHA

HAHA

HA

(I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that way. I was just about to ask if I'm the only one feeling a bit gleeful about town traipsing in to discover we've owned their day)

[alcove]

Also, if you contact Seb, you can't join the mafia. You have to contact me.

I know.

[alcove]

-shrug-

I would assume so.

[alcove]

My "Scumtell" in the beginning of the game was not really a scum tell, in that I would have done the same as town... Not rest's comment in her chat that I would list pros and cons without deciding, that was legitimately me being undecided (I mean, I was uninformed scum) and also how I play as town. I can't help it, I second-guess myself a lot and prefer to just display the whole thought process for other people to draw conclusions from.

My behavior with the mylo thing, however, was definitely a scum-tell and I was kicking myself the entire time about it. It was just a stupid, stupid, very scummy move on my part.
Of course at the time I THOUGHT my buddies had picked up on my breadcrumbs, in fact I was almost positive of it, and I assumed that was why people were defending me... Course that was wrong, my buddies did defend me but had no clue who I was...

In general I've discovered I prefer being clueless scum to clueless town. It's so nice to be able to quietly cheer in the back of my head over every kill, instead of feeling frustrated.


---

Good game guys. Was pretty impressed by alcove's move yesterday.

Aw, thanks.

Maybe Empking was right that I handed the game to the scum :/

I'd like to argue that the one who stated this downwards slide for town was Empking. His attack on you made no sense whatsoever.




Now for quicktopic posts.

Well, just be on the lookout for the agent.

...I. I can't even respond to that, honestly. (THE FIRST POST TT___TT)

RF isn't one of the unlynchables. [bShe's really treading in perilous waters with her crap attack of alcove.[/b] We can get RF lynched tomorrow. I think we need to get rid of one of the unlynchables...

=D

---

Black Sun Society sure enjoyed leaving breadcrumbs. O_O


---

Good game guys.

[alcove]

none of them. you made them impossibly obscure. But reading your quicktopic and then going back and seeing how you deliberately misspelled "today" was fun =D

Black Sun Society was totally the coolest faction, except maybe that suicide cult... OH RIGHT. AND THE SECRET AGENTS. BUT THAT GOES WITHOUT SAYING. =DDD

[alcove]

Well, for people like you who pull it off with flair, sure (I'm a sort of maybe fan of your townie play... *awkward shuffle backwards*)

[alcove]

No, that wasn't an insult. It was an expression of admiration =D

You're scary to play against.

[alcove]

:arrow: :arrow: :arrow:

vote: zwets

[alcove]

Yes. You missed Stoofer's second law.

[alcove]

It whizzed past you while you were sipping tea. Typical.

confirm vote: zwets

[alcove]

If you can design a game that is "stupid townie"-proof, I'd love to see it.