Mini 736 - The Masonry Game Over!

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Vote: zwetschenwasser

A. The name is too difficult for simpletons like me
B. Obviously an evil sorceror

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We should probably have a discussion about game mechanics or something to pull the game out of this lagging random vote stage. I'm not sure what to say, though. I've never played in a game with recruiting masons before. Any thoughts on how this one should be played optimally?

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Plan for dealing with Bad Dudes:
#1: Set up a secret club
#2: Invite the most trustworthy townsfolk
#3: Eliminate the rest
#4: Victory Party
Simple, right? But can you really trust your mason brothers, and hope that your masonry won't be compromised by the enemy? And is that embarrassing initiation ceremony really necessary?

I assumed. This is what I signed up for in the queue. Sounds like recruiting masons to me. Also from the flavor text.

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Confirm vote: zwetschenwasser

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You admitted being a sorcerer! But now I'm rethinking my vote after your soothing words.

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Piano and harp! I was performance but now I'm going into composition.

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Hey, just thought of something. That would be a weird angle, if the "masonry" were really a cult. Based on flavor text it doesn't seem so, but hey, that's bastard moddery for you. But let's look at hoofprints and think horses, not zebras, right? Anyway, I think it is indeed bad to discuss abilities, but still, I'm glad we're pulling ourselves away from random (uninformed?) voting one way or another.

What else to say, though? Nothing's really popping out at me so far. Nothing tangible, anyway. There are a few people who so far appear to be taking more of a neutral, "follower" stance that could be interpreted as scummy, but since this is so early in the game I'm not sure it really means much, so I'll just keep it to myself for now.

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What would you like to discuss, Empking?

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I'm of the opinion that you should say what you *want* to do rather than what you *don't*. The vote counts for something, though.

Anyway, I won't argue that it's not anti-town. It is, on some level (though I don't think I've said anything particularly helpful to scum), but I simply didn't want to stay in the random stage forever. I'd rather start the game with a suboptimal move than not play it at all. I'm sure I won't make any friends saying that, but that's the way I see it. We can certainly stop with the setup discussion now that serious votes have been made.

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I already told you why I did that, Empking. Also, I don't think I've helped the scum with anything I've said. Perhaps it was borderline, but I don't think I crossed over into "helping scum" territory.

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What did I even say? What you're saying implies some sort of inside knowledge--suspicious.

Seems like you know I'm town. "Handing the scum the game"? That means you know I'm pro-town. If that's true, and I don't know how it would be because I don't have any game to hand the scum anyway, you just helped the scum by pointing it out--unless you are scum, of course, in which case you would have no problem doing so. And it's starting to look like it, seeing as you apparently have some inside information that I don't have access to.

Maybe I am a mason. Maybe I'm not. Maybe I said whatever I said to throw off the scum. Maybe I didn't. Maybe YOUR speculation is hurting the town, not mine.

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I actually have a question for you, . If you think that something I said "handed the game over to the scum," why would you point it out? Obviously I didn't notice, maybe the scum wouldn't notice, either, until you bring it up, of course. Then they'd be combing the thread for it.

I am not asking you what you meant. Don't answer anyone else who asks, either.

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No, I was talking to Empking. I thought I typed that but apparently I backspaced...?

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Also I am really beginning to seriously worry about the fact that Empking seems to know I am town when he said I handed the game over to the scum. Empking, if you think my discussions are so anti-town, why did you just imply so strongly that I am of a pro-town alignment?

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I hate having to bring this up, but...

Note - This game may contain any of the following: Cults, Scum Masons, Uninformed Millers,

Jesters

, and Undefined Sanities.

(emphasis mine)

Reecer6's behavior is so unbelievably inexplicable that I have to consider this. Sorry, everyone. I'm just the messenger.

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So let's at least think about it before we possibly let him self-hammer okay?

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I guess it's usually not a game ender, but I still think that given the possibility (and the lack of information gained from a Reecer lynch at this point) we should discuss things a bit before we let him hang, please. If he's a Jester, he might self-hammer. That's mostly what I mean. The day could end on Page 7 and we'd have gained very little from this day.

I want to make the most of this. I think we should look at people we actually might be able to gauge reactions from. Whether you're town or scum, your natural reaction to Reecer is "WTF?" Even if you're his scumbuddy you wouldn't dare defend him. So we'd be hard pressed to look for connections etc. no matter what he flips. Reecer could be a page 7 dead end and I don't want that.

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By the way,

Vote: Empking

for seeming to know too much, as I've previously stated.

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Juls, that is because I always vote late. I don't know why. Maybe it's a bad habit, but I am always hesitant to vote. Empking's seeming inside knowledge just started to bother me more and more so I thought I should put a vote on.

Empking, that doesn't even make any sense. If I am scum, I should not be able to "hand the game over to the scum" D1. I would have to be a truly amazing player, or the game would have to be broken. If any old scum can just "hand the game over to the scum" D1 then they would always do it. Period. The only way I could hand the game over to the scum would be as town. Seriously, what you are saying is really, really stupid/scummy, I'm not sure which. I'm leaning scummy because I still think you slipped when you implied I was town.

I explained my setup speculation. The first thing I said was just to get discussion going, and I just asked a question and explained why I assumed there were recruiting masons. The second thing I said was kind of a half-joke because I think that it would be a seriously messed-up game if the masonry was really the cult. I also explained my jester speculation. I don't want the day to end with no headway on scumhunting. Do you?

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I'm not the only one who is "misinterpreting you", so if you want people to know what the hell you're talking about, maybe you should make yourself more clear.

Look, if I am scum, I don't have enough information to "hand the scum the game." And if I'm scum and "admitted I'm not a mason," that's just a lie and doesn't mean anything. Either I handed the scum the game, or I didn't. (I didn't.) If you think I opened the door for

town-aligned

players to hand the scum to the game, that may make sense. But you didn't say that, and it still sounds like a slip to me. And I haven't gone to any "lengths" to paint you as scummy. You have done an awesome job of that yourself.

And no, I didn't purposely play "scummy". I don't think I did anything scummy. Maybe a bit anti-town, yes, in that too much setup speculation could lead to an advantage for scum. But scummy, no. It's a difference of opinion. Don't make it out to be anything else.

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Sorry everybody. I really did think I had trapped Empking.

But yeah, Reecer's our man.

Vote: Reecer6

I'm also a little suspicious of zwet.

I'm not doing the whole jester WIFOM thing. I have a strong feeling that he's lying about his claim by the way he worded it: He said "the masons will be told that I'm town". He didn't say "the masons will be able to confirm that I'm town." The way I read it is "I'm scum, but I have this awesome ability that once I'm recruited the mod will lie to them and call me town. Behold my awesomeness!"

I know that others before him had suggested the possibility of a godfather-esque role, but it's just the way he phrased it sounds like overreaching, overconfidence, and the way he "rephrases" Empking's claim is suspicious. Not that I can judge anyone for voting for Empking, but it's just this one post that seems a little suspect. Nothing too concrete yet, though.

For now my vote's on Reecer6. I don't really see it going anywhere anytime soon, unless anyone else does something

really

scummy, since I just can't imagine Reecer explaining his actions in a logical and well-thought out way. I really hope he's scum, because as town he's a huge red herring. We can't just ignore him, though. He's been super-scummo and I can't let it go today like I did yesterday.

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Explain how I used WIFOM, Max. Empking was accusing me of something that was impossible - handing the scum the game D1 as town. I also believed he had implied scum knowledge. This was the same thing that I reiterated in several posts, yet you single out post 108 for being WIFOM. I don't see the WIFOM in it, and definitely not in an "obvious way."

Caboose, I'm suspicious of zwet not because of his stance on Empking, but because of the way he put it in that one post. It's not a strong suspicion, and that's why I'm voting Reecer. At least Reecer should contribute something before I take my vote off.

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Might not think what's logical? What were you agreeing with? Can you actually answer the question?

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I can't stand players like that. It's a real headache dealing with them. I can just see it now: we lynch Reecer and he turns up town and congratulations, Reecer, your jackassery has just earned scum an effortless mislynch! Unfortunately, leaving him alive is a mistake because if he is scum, he can act however he wants and hammer whomever he wants because hey, he's not scummy, he's just dumb!

Either way it's stupid. I think we should just lynch him so we don't have to deal with this all game. I know it sounds bad, but I can't imagine having fun in this game with Reecer acting like this and everyone running around in circles yelling, "Do we lynch him? Do we leave him alive?" The thing is, I don't feel comfortable buying him a ticket to endgame just because he acts like an idiot. And I don't see his behavior changing anytime soon--so why not just kill him now? I say lynch Reecer today and maybe zwet tomorrow if nothing substantial changes.

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I believe the claim. It sounds probable to me and not something Reecer would be capable of making up, considering his...shortcomings. Ugh...I'm not sure what I wanted pushing his wagon anyway. Should have foreseen that he would just claim something plausible and we'd be hurt.

But yeah, considering zwets' panicky and nonsensical behavior, I think he's the correct lynch now. Unfortunately. Because I sure do enjoy his appreciation of music.

Unvote; Vote: zwetschenwasser

Right now I'm getting town reads from Sebguer and Juls. Pretty much everyone else is neutral in my book, except a scum read on zwets. I also believe that Reecer6 is town now.

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This doesn't make me feel any better about zwets. All it proves is that Reecer believed that zwets was town. I am not inclined to trust Reecer's judgment.

Most people seemed to not want to lynch Reecer after his claim. Why exactly were you so eager to out yourself, zwets? It's not like it would "save" Reecer, since he had pretty much saved himself already.

Also, why would the mafia want to NK you?

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Why you at all? You are not confirmed town because of this, not by a long shot. Stop acting like you are.

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Are you Empking?

Abilities:
The Chosen One (Passive) - Upon being recruited into a masonry group, your status as the chosen one will immediately be revealed to your mason brethren, confirming your innocence as a member of the town faction.

Because it didn't say "the Chosen Two."

Otherwise you're not confirmed. And the fact you're pretending you are makes me think you're scum.

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You just full-claimed...was that part of your post really necessary?

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Caboose, what you're not getting is that Reecer may be town and zwet may be scum. Based on the understanding of the recruitment system gained from Empking's role, Reecer6's recruitment of zwet does not prove anything.

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Sorry, missed that post by you.

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Yes, I find it only a very remote possibility that both Reecer and zwets are scum.

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I doubt it would be a scum plan, Nightfall. It's too risky. If one dies, the other would be incriminated.

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If anything I think zwets is the one who looks desperate and needs a claim to keep him alive. He just claimed townie for no reason.

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What is your win condition, Reecer?

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No one say anything more until Reecer tells us what his win condition is.

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Well, then we can talk about other things, of course. But I think there should be no more speculation about that. I want to hear what Reecer has to say first.

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For "lurking"

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It is very urgent to know Reecer's win condition. Therefore, if he does not tell us his win condition soon, i will push for his lynch again. Until I've given up on his telling us his win condition, however, I don't want anyone to

guess

at it. I don't want anyone speculating about it at all. I want this to be all Reecer.

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I don't buy the backtracking. If any possibility of him being a cult recruiter exists, we have to take care of the problem NOW before it becomes deadly.

Unvote, Vote: Reecer6

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How can you not notice you're town? It's pretty explicit in my role PM. That smells like BS.

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Good morning everyone.

Vote: zwets

for hammering his mason recruiter when he knew full well what his role was. I don't buy the "maybe he's a cult recruiter on the side" thing.

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I should have been more on top of things yesterday, but I had a whole night to ponder it, and something about you hammering Reecer just doesn't add up. You should have been his #1 defender and yet you flip-flopped constantly.

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No one thought Reecer was mafia. We thought he was a cult recruiter. You were probably the only one who could have known he was a

mason

recruiter. Therefore, your hammering of him does not make sense.

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Unvote

I might put my vote on again, but this particular quicklynch is reminding me of the other 2 days, which were both town lynches. Everyone is so involved in it, it feels scum-driven to me. It's either a heavy, heavy bus or zwets is town who has made several poor choices. I still think that zwets is scummy, but I am beginning to have my misgivings about the way everyone is pushing this lynch. Some of these people are bound to be scum, and nothing reads like a bus to me. I don't want to lose this game because we were too hot-headed and lynched everything that moved.

And besides, there are other scum besides zwets if zwets is scum, and I really think there should be more examination of this wagon before Caboose hammers. I'm probably going to go under fire from Juls and Caboose for this, and possibly everyone else, but I'm not going to let people "peer pressure" me into a possible mislynch. A quicklynch is not what we need here. We've had plenty of those.

Vote: alcove

Something about you doesn't seem right. I don't know if it's the way you ride the fence on everything, or the way you took off your vote before going to bed when someone suggested not quicklynching, then woke up and put it back on again after a few posts in between. I can't quite place it, but something about you is off. And

FoS

on Sebguer for reasons that may become apparent later.

I think we should squeeze more out of this day. I want more than a zwets-bashing party, even though it's fun. There is no reason for a quicklynch. Maybe Juls thinks a quicklynch wouldn't hurt, but I definitely think making the day last a little longer won't hurt either.

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Yes, very OMGUSy. But I still want to look at a few more suspects before this day ends, one way or another.

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You forgot this was a crazy game so you thought you were confirmed town, but then you COMPLETELY backtracked and thought the game was

so

crazy as to include a SCUM mason recruiter? That is just weird to me.

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If you want to know why I'm voting alcove, you'll have to go back a page. I know, I know, it's difficult. But it's worth it sometimes.

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I'm sorry that I failed to earn the coveted zwetschenwasser stamp of approval. Would you care to tell me why?

Anyway, I'm sort of seeing this as zwet trying to look more town by arguing with my reasoning even though I unvoted him. Guess it's WIFOM though.

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Juls - We ARE making conversation. Even if it's "what the hell is RF talking about", it's conversation, and I think it's useful.
----
Chapter 1: My FoS on Sebguer

I will say this. It's cryptic, but it's all I can give you right now:

If Sebguer is scum, the correct move would be to tell you everything about why I suspect Sebguer, because scum knows the important stuff already. Unfortunately, I don't know for sure whether Sebguer is scum.

If Sebguer is town, the correct move would be to keep everything to myself, not even sharing my FoS.

Unfortunately I don't know for sure whether or not Sebguer is scum, so I did something inbetween those two. Eventually it may become clear why I suspect Sebguer--so that you will be able to then take that into account, I am FoSing him, but for now I'm going to leave it at that. I am sorry for being cryptic, but I don't want to reveal anything to scum. if ALL of you really, really, really, really want to know why I am slightly suspicious of Sebguer, I will tell you, but I don't think it's a good idea, just in case Sebguer is town.
---
Chapter 2:

My case on Alcove:

It was kind of BS. I'll give zwets that. Not in that I fabricated it, but in that I fabricated the REASONS for it. It mostly is "something I can't quite place." I don't want alcove lynched, because my reasons for voting her are pretty stupid, and I can admit that. I am actually more suspicious of Sebguer, but I don't want to talk about that too much. I just wanted someone to put my vote on besides zwets because I was afraid Caboose was going to drop the hammer. I don't want an Empking-style quicklynch or another unproductive "lynch a stupid pro-town player and then regret it" day. I knew unvoting wouldn't be enough to extend the day. That would just delay the inevitable without really exploring other issues. I knew I would have to put my vote somewhere else. There is something about alcove that I feel uneasy about. I know there is an underlying tangible reason for my gut feeling, and I examined some different ideas. I am aware that none of them quite fit.

I do not want alcove lynched right now because of my gut feeling. I feel that zwets has done little to dissuade my suspicions of him. I feel that I have succeeded in inspiring different paths of conversation. I am going to unvote alcove.

unvote

I am

sure

this post will make me look to some people like I was just throwing crap at the wall to see what stuck, but honestly, I think that I did a good thing. And if people continue to discuss my weird little tangent, then all the better. I think our days have been one-track and it has hurt us a lot--it has been very difficult to explore connections/voting patterns because everyone was tunneling on one player or another and there wasn't a lot of divergence of suspicion. So if you want to fry zwets today, at least keep in mind that we will never catch all the scum until we stray from the "everyone agrees about the lynch of the day" mindset.

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zwets--do you think our suspicion of you is unfounded? Do you think you have played a pro-town game so far?

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I wasn't fabricating them. They just weren't very strong.

The FoS is vague for now, but I am waiting to hear from Sebguer to see if he understands why I FoSed him.

As for trying to distract from the zwets wagon, I'm perfectly willing to have zwets be today's lynch, but Caboose was about to hammer and I just didn't think the day should be finished yet. If I have to be the one under scrutiny in order to extend the day's discussion to other directions, then so be it. I'll be happy to hammer zwets, but not right now.

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Maybe it was a bad idea. Probably. But I don't see any serious harm done except a few people are suspicious of me who weren't before.

Anyway, I have my reasons for mentioning the Sebguer thing. I think Sebguer has a pretty good idea about what I'm talking about. Should anything happen to me, you should get him to tell you. If he won't, it should seriously raise some eyebrows. I didn't want to blow my case on him out of proportion because I don't get any scumtells from his posts.

Back to alcove. The thing is, I do sense something scummy when I read alcove's posts. I am getting scumtells somewhere. I don't expect you to lynch her based on that. I just want you to know how I feel about it, and I DID want to stall the zwets wagon. I don't feel the day is ready to end yet. I am not trying to win any popularity contests with a ploy to extend the day, but hey, it worked. And if you don't like that, then I'm sorry, but I had to think of something because I felt like Caboose was going to hammer any minute and I wanted to open some more doors of discussion.

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Good job, scum. I really sucked it up.

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But I don't understand. Shouldn't the game already be over if Caboose+Sebguer+alcove are scum and Jahudo+RF are town?

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EBWO (triple) P

I guess I get it. If alcove's the traitor. Wow, I reeeeeally suck at this game

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At the last minute my body double, Restferamenta, saved the day and took a bullet for me. I win!

Just kidding.

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Maybe Empking was right that I handed the game to the scum :/

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I wish I could place what about alcove I found scummy, but it wasn't really a crap attack, seeing as I was right. As for Sebguer it was mostly role-based, but still not crap.

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I basically killed you, Nightfall. Sorry.

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And by the way, I was trying to seem a little scummy D3 in order to stay alive. I thought I was coming across as too townie and might get NK'ed. I knew I probably wouldn't get lynched because of my role. It didn't really work out for me, obviously, but it could have, had the game swung in a different direction.