Mini 739 ~ Mafia Jailbreak, Game Over

[OhGodMyLife]

Vote: Rhinox

Still smarting from that newbie game where you spanked me.

[OhGodMyLife]

Oh god, my life. I should have realized what I was getting into signing up for another game with Rhinox and Jahudo.

Now, onto the more important matters.

Unvote, Vote: Korts

Your pops vote stinks of "throwing the book at him looks protown," and since that one questionable infraction you voted him for I haven't seen anything else from you which looked in any way like you're really trying to determine his alignment.

Also, this:

I don't like how multiple people jumped to the defense of MME. First pops, now Rhinox; I smell connections.

Is totally bogus. You're either trying to stark a witch hunt on MME, or one of those three players {MME, pops, Rhinox} is in your scumgroup and you're already laying false connection trails to townies.

---

RE: SK discussion. On day one, there is nothing to gain for town from discussing the possibility of an SK. I have yet to see any way for town to successfully divine who an SK is on day one of a game, without even knowing if there is one, and the faction who has much more of a vested interest in offing an SK as early as possible is the scaredy-pants mafia who don't want to get crosskilled.

Particularly the fact that the theoretical SK is the

only

possible source of dead mafia during the night,

and

this SK gets one shot kill immunity, this particular line of discussion is what makes Tar's "selective scumhunting" tell not just a buzzword.

[OhGodMyLife]

Bringing up the SK in the absence of evidence for an SK's existence

is

focusing on the SK. If the scum are going to make the mistake, they already have. No doubt because of the ensuing discussion they'll be more careful for the rest of the game.

[OhGodMyLife]

RC, no, I thought it was pretty clear pops was making a joke. I actually agree with him that people were talking-about-nothing-like-they're-getting-paid up to that point, and to an extent since then. There's a lot of fluff and theory discussion going on in this thread, and from my experience all theory discussion ever does in games is give scum a nice, cozy place to hide while the real action goes on around them.

Korts, throwing the book as in, your response seemed to be almost automated. "You have made a move that I consider to be standard-scum-play so here is my standard-response-vote!" It was like you didn't even consider the surroundings of pops' post, or weigh whether or not it really hinted at his alignment, you just went OMG SCUMTELL.

[OhGodMyLife]

FoS: Rhinox

[OhGodMyLife]

Continuing to do so no longer serves a purpose.

But it made a convenient excuse for you to policy vote him, didn't it scum?

[OhGodMyLife]

Rhinox, you're completely ignoring Korts. Why?

And as for opinions on self-voting, nobody self-voted in this game, and a given player's opinion on self-voting tends to not change from game to game and is therefore not diagnostic, so I really don't care one way or the other what pops, korts or anyone else has to say on the topic. Its a bunch of noise.

Wise IC guide in newbie 645

That must have been Prof. Guppy, because I can't think of any other ICs in that game who could be considered wise

[OhGodMyLife]

Huh.. has it been that long since I posted? Real response coming soon.

[OhGodMyLife]

Man, the posts in this game are just enormous. I am catching on up.

[OhGodMyLife]

Post numbers referenced because I'm so freakin' far behind.

And don't you agree that when there's a clear-cut scumtell (jokingly made or not) early in the game, it deserves pressure?

I don't agree that its clear-cut, for one thing, and you make it sound like we can play this game like its some kind of algorithm. A standardized response to a specific action is not diagnostic, and is therefore the perfect move for scum to make.

It's just as valid a starting point as anything else in this stage of the game.

"At this stage of the game"... whats that mean exactly? Whats the cut off point when the game goes from color by numbers to actually scumhunting?

I tried making it pretty obvious anyway that my reaction was only pseudo-serious.

This is just covering your tracks. Pseudo-serious is incredibly hard to define as it is. Does that mean you wouldn't lynch based on that vote? Or what? And no, it was not in any obvious that the vote was "pseudo-serious."

OGML FoSing without comment? Especially considering how Rishi called Rhinox out a few minutes before him, I think this is a strange move.

Define "strange move." Because this feels like a way to just smear me without backing anything up.

OGML, what gives you the feeling that Rhinox was ignoring me? I don't remember having unanswered points toward him.

Its not about him not answering questions you raise, its about him not commenting on you at all. Given that Rhinox's posts up to that point (and, well always) are basically little novellas, and he had had something to say on just about everything else that had happened in the game, his complete lack of interest in what I had said about you was something I found telling.

I'm really playing like a (Village) Idiot this game... lame, but true excuse: all 4 of my games I'm in got extremely active at the same time, the last couple days, and because of that I've been playing extremely crappy - i.e. not typing things the way I intend them to me, and now blatently forgetting which questions I've asked to which players. Also, without getting too sentimental, I've been looking forward to this game ever since Vi PMed me the list of pre-ins. This game is pretty much full of great players, and I was looking forward to the opportunity to prove I could run with some of the best mafiascum.net has to offer. The end result is me being a bit off my game, trying too hard, being a bit flustered, and looking like a big idiot.

I have to hope this has been discussed pretty heavily by now, but wtf Rhinox, you're defending yourself entirely with appeal to emotion,

and

you're simultaneously using flattery on everyone else in the game.

This gets you top marks on my scum report card. I'll hold off til I finish reading, but based on this alone you should hang today.

Yes, I realize both the irony and the phail. But, its the truth. More ironic phail: This is wifom, but what would be the benefit of saying "oops I'm just a VI who made a scummy mistake?" if I were actually scum. Why wouldn't I just make up some BS about how even though you were answering my question I still found it overly defending RC and scummy (kinda like I did when I forgot I said I didn't find your jokes scummy, and then said I did find them scummy later *facepalm*...)

...
You know, just because you acknowledge the fact that your argument is faulty doesn't mean we'll ignore the fact that its faulty.

This lets me know just how much I still have to learn... first bolded part I completely agree with. Second bolded part I also completely agree with, but was completely ignorant to that being an obvious extension to my "sk will alter their play if we're focused on him" thoughts...

Here, Rhinox specifically works on flattering bio by appealing to his authority on the subject. Silly padawan.

Re: Spyre's 119... the bit about the active players all being town..

FoS: SpyreX

Korts responded with a “Shame” that felt less serious because it did not have a serious explanation to go with the vote

How is a vote without a serious explanation suddenly not a serious vote?

More on its way soon

[OhGodMyLife]

I like Rishi's 127. Specifically:

Also, I said I didn't find bio scummy - not that I didn't find him suspicious.

I don't know if anyone else questioned this. What's the difference between scummy and suspicious? This is bordering on doublespeak.

QFT

and

Here's my issue with you, you're running around saying, "Hey, guys! We might have an SK! We should take that into consideration!" But, as far as I've seen (and you can correct me if I'm wrong), you have not offered one specific suggestion on what we should do to account for an SK. Okay, if we're supposed to play differently based on an SK, then HOW should we play differently? That's why it seems like you're creating a lot of noise but not providing any content.

QFT. This seems like a major issue regarding RedCoyote. I can't think of a single thing he's done this game aside from make a lot of noise about how we need to be wary of a possible SK.

even if you found that all of my votes seemed based on some idea of a by the book policy, would that say anything about my allignment?

And this was my issue with what Korts did, which you never seemed to find interesting enough to comment on. It doesn't say anything about alignment, thus making it an ideal play for scum.

Korts' 131 feels like its intentionally skirting the main issues by focusing only on the mechanical aspects of RC's SK bit. This is the problem with unwarranted setup speculating, or in this case debating about the

merits

of setup speculating which is even one degree removed from that, is that its got nothing to do with alignment, and therefore is an ideal thing for mafia to talk about instead of anything else.

I know you don't have a problem using wifom

, so do you really think that it would have been beneficial for me to be THAT honest as scum?

Re: bold - *rimshot* seems like a sly way to try and remind everyone that you're not the only one guilty of WIFOMing in this game. But you're certainly relying on it much more heavily than he is.
Re: the rest - well, everyone else should still have a problem with you trying to dig yourself out of a whole using an entirely WIFOM argument despite the fact that you admit that it is so. I certainly do.

vote rhinox. This is a good place for the first strong wagon of the day IMO.

The way you phrase that makes it seem like you don't expect to actually be lynching Rhinox today. Are multiple strong wagons in a day necessary? Were you willing to see Rhinox lynched when you placed this vote?

Aparently nothing I can say to stop it, since my defenses are overrated

Defending your appeal to emotion defense with... another appeal to emotion.

Spyre 149 has a big blinking sign on it that says "I'm stalling for Rhinox"

Working my way forward page by page

[OhGodMyLife]

This I agree with. Unfortunately for me, there just hasn't been enough time for ANYONE to have stacked up a mountain of overwhelming town play... if you guys quicklynch me, that won't change. If you don't, then maybe I can turn around and be more pro-town.

Ah, the specter of a quicklynch. If thats not enough to scare people off your wagon, gosh I just don't know what is.

I've got news for you. A real, honest to god day one quicklynch will not happen outside of a newbie game, and even then I'm not convinced it will happen. Whats going on now is by no means quick, and there has been more than enough content generated up to this point to offset whatever theoretical devastating repercussions of a quicklynch are brought up when someone has no other way to get people to stop voting for them.

So I guess the question I should be asking everyone right now is if the initial suspicion from my contradiction is strong enough for a lynch, are I can't say anything to alleviate that initial suspicion, are you all prepared to end the day now with a quick lynch on me, or do you feel conversation should continue?

stallin' and stallin' and stallin'

Question(s) for Huntress, MME, Rishi, Rhinox and OGML:

If you were forced to vote for one player right now, who would it be and why? Does not require an actual vote, so basically I am asking for your top 1 suspect. I would prefer to not see a list of scummy rankings. I know OGML is voting, but his suspicions haven't been clear since the vote was placed as he addressed Rhinox as scum a few times.

Unvote, Vote: Rhinox

I was gonna wait til I got all the way up to the present, but there is just a tidal wave of scum coming from his direction. So there's your answer.

Although I think the SK talk is becoming a sticky point, what about this focus is scummy? I'm having a hard time finding a scum-motive for "WATCH OUT FOR THE SK" in the fashion its been. Is it bordering on silly now? Yes. I'm still not seeing the scum maneuver for it, though.

Because with all the effort he's spent shouting OMG SK GUYS DON'T FORGET THE SK he's managed to not actually scumhunt one iota, for all his reams of contribution to this game.

I think Spy has done a much better job convincing me to look at pops than either you or Korts have.

Thats interesting. Why is it that you need somebody to convince you to look at anyone? Shouldn't you be looking at

everyone

of your own volition?

Moreover, I am implying that cases on Day 1 are necessarily weaker than cases on succeeding days. Do you disagree with that?

*raises hand* I do. The only kind of evidence lacking from day one cases which may be present in later cases is connections to already dead scum. Aside from this, a day one case can and should be just as strong as any other case that leads to a lynch in a game.

OGML, please make this game a higher priority for yourself.

Hi. Working on it.

Re Rhinox 181: My meta of you as scum is that you're good. My meta of you as town is that you're good. So, similar to how you picked up on Vi in Mafia 87 for inconsistencies, the fact that your appeal to emotion to the Nth degree defense here is horrendous, is an inconsistency with your usual standard of play. You yourself explained why this may be so - its your first game with multiple scum partners, and certainly your first game without a self-destructive scum partner. Thus, the differences.

bio 182 is a winner. Your prior unvote of rhinox based on RC's voting has me worried though. Don't discount that rc and rhinox could be a) bussing [least likely], b) on two seperate scumteams [more likely] or c) one is mafia and the other is sk [also more likely]

there is nothing better for scum than being on the lynchwagon of a separate scum faction on day one

Official

FoS: RedCoyote

in case my suspicion wasn't obvious enough already.

And I'm done. If at deadline it comes down to me changing wagons or no lynch happening, I'll switch to RC, but I like the Rhinox lynch better.

[OhGodMyLife]

I suddenly feel like Rhinox and RC being scumbuddies is not the stretch that I thought it was.

[OhGodMyLife]

And yet you don't see a ton of repetition of the same questions being asked and answered?

No, its not the same question or answer exactly, but it is the same point over and over again. Its not getting anywhere, and its bogging down the thread in huge posts that haven't got a thing to do with actual gameplay.

Like, for instance (God, this is going to sound like such heresy to you people), a townie Watcher is such a gold mine of an opportunity. It may be worth risking having one player come out, on the basis that there could be a townie Doctor and/or a townie Watcher.

I know on epic people just can't get enough of day one claiming, and its very often the right strategy, but thats because the setup is

entirely open

, not semi-open. Semi-open is still also semi-closed. Just because there could be a town doctor or watcher does not mean there IS one of those roles, so a power role claiming is just asking to be nightkilled. In essence, you are blatantly role fishing. Additionally, you're basically suggesting that now would be a good time for a scum to fake claim.

I want so badly to play the newbie card right now ;_;

Saying you want to play the newbie card is, in fact, playing the newbie card. I know you are a good player on epicmafia, I know you are not a stupid person, so I don't see how the above point about the difference between open and semi-open could really escape you, MS newb or otherwise. Things just aren't adding up here.

---

username's example of a quicklynch is an enigma. however, it was a quicklynch on

scum

which required a self-vote to come to fruition. and pops' example is a newbie game. my point about real quicklynches not happening in real games still stands. crying "don't quicklynch me!" at a wagon forming on you is stalling.

Its in the interest of my win condition to prevent my lynch regardless of my allignment. I feel the wagon on my was because of my initial controdiction - If I would have tried to ignore it ever happened and moved on, that would have been scummy. Honestly defending it was also viewed as scummy. I could have BSed some excuse that wouldn't have looked as scummy (probably), but it would have been fabricating a lie only meant to save myself. If I'm lynched, it was decided on Page 3 (-ish... somewhere around there). No matter how I acted afterwords, there was no erasing the scumminess. Of course, in the last 6 pages there has been a lot of opinions about it, which would be very helpful tomorrow if I'm lynched and my allignment is revealed.

Yes, its in the interest of your win con to not get lynched. But trying to prevent your lynch by decrying it as a quicklynch is not the right move. Its a cheap tactic that only intends to scare voters away from your wagon. Just because the driving force that started a wagon on you was something that happened on page three does not make this a quicklynch. As you say yourself, the last six pages are full of information. But not just information, they're full of further evidence leading to the conclusion that you are scum. Your wagon is not solely based on what happened on page three, as you would have us believe.

So what will your new conclusion be when I show up town tomorrow morning? (hint: don't you think that even a good player can have a bad game?)

Yet another scare tactic. If thats the case, I'll draw my conclusion when it happens. As it is, this question is designed to force me to somehow implicate myself even without your alignment yet being revealed, as though it were definitely town.

You know what I find really odd... the same people calling me scum are some of the same people voting RC right now for pretty much the same points I've been arguing about RC all game... not too sure what to make of it right now, but it makes me think the wagon on RC right now is highly scum motivated...

Well, since you are on the RC wagon, I don't doubt that that is true.

OGML even goes so far as to suggest that RC and I are each scum members of different factions - I find that a completely baseless assumption, considering its D1 and there is no reason to be assuming anything about factions, nor evidence to support the assumption... well, maybe OGML knows something about the scum factions I don't. I get the feeling that assumption was made because its the only way he can justify calling RC and I both scum. Also, conveniently I suppose, its a way for OGML to hide lining up lynches. Lynch one of us today. If town, the other looks more scum. If scum (sk), the other is a member of the other faction.

It also makes sense that scum would go after RC first when pushing a one or the other, or both scum scenario to set up mislynches - 1 or the other type situations typically don't work because of the potential false dilemna aspect of the argument. If one of us are lynched town, it probably wouldn't fly to call the other scum solely on our massive disagreement. But even if RC is lynched town first, I can still be tomorrow's mislynch based on my bad play up til now.

This whole bit here is why I said what I did in post 211. Rhinox is trying to browbeat us into concluding that if one of them is scum, other can not possibly be.

---

I think RC is trying to tie himself to me actually. Defending me, but not addressing any accusations i make against him (addressing everyone else's instead). And then the awkward turtle FoS he made that one time, that was weird.

I don't know how relevant that thought is, but i'd like to have it on file. Does anyone else get this impression?

Yeah, and the fact that Korts was trying to tie the two of you together as well makes me even more uneasy.

---

I'd actually be content if you were today's lynch pops, I think you've done a great job flying under the radar.

Translation: Anybody but meeeee!
If pops has flown under the radar, you are at least guilty of trying to do the same thing by filling pages with the same damn argument back and forth about whether or not its OK to talk about whether or not there is an SK. I would call that an attempt to hide in plain sight.

---

I don't know... I couldn't imagine them being scumbuddies. I won't say that scumbuddies never go after each other, but this is some pretty hardcore distancing. Kind of a big risk on Day 1.

Actually, from my experience I'd say when the two leading wagons on day one are both on scum, they are much, much

more

likely to employ the hardest-core distancing you can imagine than in any other situation. For an example, see Invitational 10, where DGBscum ends up being the day one lynch, with Elias-scum as a major competing wagon. The two of them are at each others throats in a big way once the focus comes down to the two of them. (as a bonus they both (especially elias) throw out random, uncalled for attacks on Pablito, a player who was not under any suspicion to speak of, who just so happened to be the third member of their scumteam)

---

3)If RC is town, then Rhinox is scum arguing for a mislynch + plus Rhinox had a lot of scummy comments on D1.

Pretty sure I didn't say this one. I'm confident you're both scum, its just a question of what variety.

So no matter what, OGML is setting me up to be lynched tomorrow regardless of RC's allignment.

You set yourself up to be lynched tomorrow if not today, my friend, by being such obvscum.

I absolutely think this is a valid point. If the lynch today ends up being one of us, I surely hope that the town does not forget OGML's proposal.

What teamwork! Its glorious! Two scum, working in tandem to try to make the fact that I've got them nailed look suspicious.

Not so much his bus prediction, but the fact that he dedicated an entirely new post (211) to bringing it back up to the surface with no further explanation or call for it.

What the heck does that fact that its an entirely new post have to do with it? I was reading along, didn't have time for an in depth post, but wanted to put my opinion out there so it would be situated near the post that set off alarm bells. There is always call for a player to state his opinion, as you so eloquently argued about your own right to bring up whatever topic you so desire. That street goes both ways.

You do realize, bionic, that OGML has made it clear that he has no problem voting me should the lynch tide go my way?

Why you're right, I did say that should the deadline arrive without a majority on either you or Rhinox, I would switch my vote to you to ensure we lynch somebody at deadline, as the deadline lynch rules in this game state that no majority at deadline means no lynch at deadline. What exactly is wrong with this, and why do you have to appeal it to the authority that is bio?

If you truly are concerned that the way this day is headed is not the best move for me (and, subsequently, the town) then I suggest you unvote.

In this thread, RedCoyote appeals to fear.

RC is saying that emotional appeals are blatantly manipulative... but that is only assuming that I'm scum intending to be manipulative. If you don't assume anything about my allignment, is an emotional appeal manipulative? Can you even argue that its scummy at all?

What? ...what? Appeals to emotion

are

an attempt to manipulate the feelings of other players, so we don't have to assume anything about your alignment for that to be true. Furthermore, thats not the direction this thought process goes in. Its {action x} is manipulative, scum manipulate, rhinox performed {action x}, rhinox is more likely to be scum, not the other way around.

---

Time for a wild theory.

Rhinox and RedCoyote are both scum. This has become exceedingly obvious. Could be different factions, could be the same faction. The fact that in the face of what I view to be equally damning cases, RedCoyote is the one who attracted the L-1 wagon and Rhinox isn't means one of two things: RedCoyote is not on Rhinox's scumteam, and Rhinox's team is lynching RC

or

, if RC and Rhinox are on a scumteam together, Rhinox is the one with a scum power role.

Take from that what you will. I still think Rhinox is the better lynch today. I still will switch my vote to RC to get a lynch at deadline.

I also think that if RC has a claim to make it should be made earlier rather than later.

[OhGodMyLife]

whoa whoa whoa OGML, if RC has a claim it should be earlier rather than later? We're all mature consenting mafia players here, no one's going to quickhammer unless they're scum in this group. We've plenty of time. If you have a serious case about Rhinox possibly being a scum power role, then we want an L-1 claim from Rhinox, not from RC.

I agree with OGML and it has nothing to do with maturity or fear of impending quicklynch. Of course that agreement was while we were at L-1. Now that we are back at L-2, there is no reason for a claim. Claims close to deadlines lead to limited time for analysis, reconsideration and discussion on an alternate lynch should one be needed.

bio's right in regards to responding to pops, but RC should be claiming right now regardless of whether its -2 or -1. Enough people have shown interest or intent to vote him if necessary at deadline, myself included, to make him the plausible deadline lynch for the day should everything remain as it is now. This means if he has a claim, it needs to come in his next post to give us enough time to consider it.

[OhGodMyLife]

Not Rhinox OR RC - if I was forced into this dichotomy, I'd say RC due to the aforementioned is scummier BUT neither of them ultimately ring my bell at all.

You are just feeding my paranoia about Rhinox being the scum power role here.

[OhGodMyLife]

It occurs to me that a mafia containing a mafia doctor has added reasons to be paranoid about the presence of an SK.

[OhGodMyLife]

It also occurs to me that a mafia doctor gives paranoid scum an added reason to talk about how <2 kills does not rule out the presence of an sk.

I'm done multiposting I swear.

[OhGodMyLife]

So after shooting down RC's idea because we don't know if we have a watcher or a doctor, you go ahead and assume that the mafia has a doctor so there must be an sk?

Holy misrepresentation batman! Where did I say there

must

be an SK? I said its a reason for a scumbag to be worried about the possible presence of an SK.

[OhGodMyLife]

V/LA for the next couple of days. Just found out somebody I knew was on the plane that crashed near Buffalo.

[OhGodMyLife]

Welcome to the longest 12 pages in the history of mafiascum, Moriarty.

Longer than 12 pages from Mafia Massacre?

This is just straight, gut fueled opinion talking here, but I really think it would be a mistake to lynch RC over Rhinox today.

[OhGodMyLife]

I try not to count scummy actions multiple times (if something is done 6 times vs. 3 times, it is not scummier)

Thats silly.

If scumRhinox gets backed into a corner over his use of AtE, his best course of action is to continue using AtE while shouting SCUM WOULD BE TOO CALCULATING TO USE ATE. If he continues getting attacked, he continues doing it, because he is now committed to this strategy. And it is nothing like your example with crywolf - AtE is

not

part of Rhinox's meta.

Spy/Moriarty - If Rhinox is scum, how does this change your opinion of pops? And the same question, only with RC as scum.

[OhGodMyLife]

RE: The bottom half of Rhinox's 311, if Rhinox flips scum I would be willing to wager he has a partner somewhere in Rishi/Pops/Huntress.

I'd be willing to wager that the rhinox scum partner in that grouping is pops.

Pops >> Rishi >> Huntress

[OhGodMyLife]

Posting to say i've been prodded and literally have time for nothing but this oneliner and my most pressing mod duties sorry everyone

[OhGodMyLife]

Mod: What time on Thursday is the deadline?

I'm at Mardi Gras right now, this is the first chance I've had to use a computer for more than ten minutes since I got here, I've been consistently somewhere between buzzed and blackout drunk for the past 72 hours at least, my voice is so shot I don't think I'll be able to speak for two weeks, and tomorrow is the mother f-ing big day, and

then

I get in a car for a 22 hour drive home, but I'll get home early Thursday morning with hopefully enough brain cells left to read and contribute to this shindig before the deadline hits. So, see y'all then.

I'm not an alcoholic.

Alcoholics go to meetings

[OhGodMyLife]

Just got out of the car after a grueling 23 straight hours, and hey look a claim from RC that makes perfect sense. Can we get this Rhinox lynch going for reals now?

More later after I've read.

[OhGodMyLife]

...I somehow don't think bio thought that through before ccing. What about this setup exactly suggests that duplicate roles aren't possible?

[OhGodMyLife]

That kill don't make no sense.

I have to recalibrate my scumdar.

[OhGodMyLife]

Responding to prod. I can confirm that I have no information to contradict my having been jailkept. Real post tomorrow.

[OhGodMyLife]

Mod:

I'm very sorry but at this point I think its probably best if you just replace me.

[OhGodMyLife]

Turns out I should have stuck to my guns on a Korts lynch instead of getting wrapped up in totally backwards conspiracy theories.

Well run Vi, despite the TMI hiccup. I really like the setup, and the flavor was awesome. Sorry I had to replace out on you.