Mini 739 ~ Mafia Jailbreak, Game Over

[RedCoyote]

Another night on the beat... another death... Prince was a good man. Prince was... my friend.

SpyreX, I don't like tha cut a-ya jib. Whadda ya say you and me take things outside?

But was he the cop killer? Could it really be SpyreX? How long has he been on the force? 14? 15 years?

Let's get one thing straight fellas: I'm straight, you ain't, and that's all I know. You might as well come clean now, because things are fixin' ta git ugly 'round here.

I think I'll take this prime oppertunenitty to put that ore-ee-in-tal fella up on the choppin' block.

vote: Rishi

He did it with a hesitation inside... worried that those around him might sense the true fear in his voice... this was going to be a long day.

[RedCoyote]

Yeah pops, it's EpicMafia. It's gotten a pretty bad rap from the people at MS but all it needs is people to keep the point-centric players from running the show.

---

I don't particularly see anything wrong with Huntress' decision, but I'm kind of waiting to see if we can't get Rishi and Rhinox on the horn.

[RedCoyote]

hmmm... those are 2 options for sparking serious discussion. Another option is random votes, which huntress has not done.

Yet my non-vote has caused more discussion so far than any vote.

And a question: Why are you not mentioning My Milked Eek, who also posted without voting?

See, this is what we're going to get into if we push the "omg you didn't conform to the RV". Hypocrisy, running around in circles...

Isn't the point of random voting to cause discussion to occur? Yeah, well, Huntress makes a good point, she caused more discussion than any other vote we had up there. She feels confident enough in her abilities to make that play and I absolutely respect that.

Would it be good discussion if I thought you were scum for refusing to RV, if you were actually town? Would that make me scum if I thought refusing to RV was a scum tell?

Also, what are you learning from this conversation?

Interesting.

I would argue that there is no clear distinction between good and bad discussion because they can go both ways at any given time (i.e. discussion over Huntress' non-vote -> soft suspicions on Huntress -> finding ways to build a case on her -> bandwagonning -> scum taking the bait??).

Just because an SK is possible, doesn't mean there is one...

I only bring this up because I think, despite this being true, it's very probable that there will be one.

I think so mainly because as I go through the roles it just seems like it would fit into the scenario pretty well.

It's very likely that we should be able to tell by tomorrow if there is an SK or not regardless though. There are no town killing roles on the list, so if two people leave us tomorrow night, then an SK would be the only answer to that problem.

A question for you Rhinox, since we're getting into the theoretical discussion anyways, what do you think of people who vote themselves during the RV stage?

---

I agree with BC on the fact that this discussion is mostly counter-productive

bionic refuses this label of his opinion, and I don't blame him. I haven't read anything similar to this in his posts, and I don't agree with the statement at all either.

---

If he's SK, he's done something that is very bad for himself.

I do not think there are grounds to make this charge. I'm not necessarily saying you are making the charge pops, but both you and Korts have basically implied it.

---

We have no conclusive evidence there is a serial killer, so scum would have no additional incentive at this point to direct the town to hunt for a phantom.

Although I both see the logic in this and agree with it, I have to ask if you are prepared to wager that there isn't an SK.

I mean, I want to keep bringing this point up because I think the town should assume there is an SK until proven otherwise, not the other way around.

[RedCoyote]

But my point is... unless there are sk kills, there is no reason to suspect an sk, nor hunt for one. If there are extra kills tomorrow, we'll know. If an sk doesn't kill to hide his identity, then ultimately that is better for the town since the game would be balanced for 2 evil kills per night (at least at the start), and by not killing the SK is guarenteeing that extra town roles will live longer.

I think it's the more risky approach to dismiss the probability of an SK in the game, but I understand your argument.

We know nothing that would indicate the probability for us.

Mmm... I just don't see what makes y'all so sure that an SK would be more improbable than not. Rhinox is misunderstanding me, I'm not advocating we concentrate solely on the SK by any means, I'm saying that because it's a valid possibility, we should take it into any planning considerations until we're in a better position to predict the roles in the setup. I don't think that's an unfair stance to take.

This is a bit of stating the obvious. An extra kill confirms a SK. A single kill leaves us where we are today.

I forget sometimes that I don't have to lecture anyone at MS.

I always try to function under worst-case scenarios. In this game that would be 3 mafia and 1 SK based on the role PMs (mafia is 2-3 members from the wording).

That's my point exactly. I'd go so far as to say I think it's

anti

-town to plan the game around the idea that the SK was just an additional role thrown into the list.

I'm not saying that the scum don't also have incentive in keeping the SK idea alive and well to take the heat off of them, but to go as far as to say "why worry about an SK today?" makes me nervous.

To make my point more clear, I'm just saying that I think we should assume there is at least 3 scum in our game. Period.

On day one, there is nothing to gain for town from discussing the possibility of an SK.

I disagree, using bionic as a springboard here,

I will state again that I have trouble seeing how hunting for an SK would actually differ from hunting for a mafia player on D1.

The town should add an additional scum to all calculations made from this point until we can state with some probability that there is

not

one around.


Anyways, I think we've beat just about all the life out of the SK argument.

---

Your pops vote stinks of "throwing the book at him looks protown," and since that one questionable infraction you voted him for I haven't seen anything else from you which looked in any way like you're really trying to determine his alignment.

Whether this is true or not, do you consider what pops admitted to,

I'm trying to join the talk-about-nothing-like-you're-getting-paid club.

to be scummy? Actually, anyone is welcome to answer this, I want to see more discussion over Korts v pops.

[RedCoyote]

RC, no, I thought it was pretty clear pops was making a joke. I actually agree with him that people were talking-about-nothing-like-they're-getting-paid up to that point, and to an extent since then. There's a lot of fluff and theory discussion going on in this thread, and from my experience all theory discussion ever does in games is give scum a nice, cozy place to hide while the real action goes on around them.

Good. I'm glad you said this because I absolutely feel the same way. Despite the fact that I keep bringing up the SK (which, granted, I think is a more worthwhile discussion), I don't particularly think all this discussion about random voting and our own personal experiences and theories about it end up helping the town all that much. It gives people a chance to sound scholarly on the subject of forum mafia and absolutely bores the hell out of me.

That being said, I completely agreed with pops' sarcasm in that post and am glad that there is at least some common ground between us here.

---

Now I was going to be the bigger man and drop this entire SK thing because it seemed to have run its course, but I will gladly continue to talk about why I think it serves the town much better to assume that there is an additional scum (e.g. Serial Killer) than not, Day one or no.

I am not arguing we should discount the possibility of an sk, I am arguing that continually insisting there is more probably an sk is doing nothing to help us find scum today... but I'll let you prove me wrong: How is assuming the worst case scenario that there is an sk going to help us catch scum today? How is talking about the presence of an sk today going to help us catch scum any other day?

For one, in no way am I saying that the SK should be treated any differently than scum insofar as scum is defined in the word "scumhunting". I'm not sitting here saying, "Ok, Rhinox hunts the SK and me and Rishi will look for the mafia team". That's not my intention at all.

Take a look at the role possibilities: Townie Roleblocker, Townie

Watcher

, Townie Doctor, Townie

Jailer

, Mafia Roleblocker, Mafia Doctor, Mafia

Watcher

...

If you are going to tell me with a straight face, based on those role possibilities, that we should assume there isn't an SK, then I absolutely have to snicker.

Lest you think I am starting some big player-Mod WIFOM, there is a perfectly good reason why we should, why every player should, assume there is an SK before we end this day, or any day, until proven otherwise: night actions.

There's no reason why we should be naive about the situation. I think it's very safe to say that it's probable there is an SK, and every townie should play like there is another scum out there.

I don't want to push this situation much further, but suffice to say I think some people (certainly I) would treat the game differently if there are 2 killing parties as opposed to 1.

---

The way he discusses it though is not as curt it should be though, which gives me a slight scum vibe.

Well, I don't know how much more curt I need to say what it is I'm thinking may happen if we assume there is only one killing party instead of two.

---

Also, your jumping to the defense of RC without letting him answer questions directed at him himself, is noted.

What are you talking about? He said I had a scum vibe for cryin' out loud.

Here pops jumps to RC's defense after I asked RC questions, whithout giving RC a chance to answer the questions himself. In the same paragraph, however, its giving him a slight scum vibe. This sounds like fence-sitting, and a bad attempt at distancing.

Defending the idea that we should assume the worst != defending the player.

I interpretted the statement: "RC is saying that we should assume the worst until better is proven. Ok, sure. The way he discusses it though is not as curt it should be though, which gives me a slight scum vibe."

as: "RC is saying that we should assume the worst until better is proven. What's wrong with that? Although, he's discussing it in a way that sounds scummy"

Regardless, I don't think it changes anything

It does, he was defending my idea, not my the player.

Actually, saying he was "defending" this idea is a bit of a stretch. I could just as easily argue he was merely stating I had a valid position that he recognized (and didn't lean one way or the other).

Unvote, Vote: Rhinox

---

So, let's humor RedCoyote for a second and say that we'll be able to tell on Day 1 that there's an SK and, furthermore, that we will be able to distinguish the SK from Mafia. (IMHO, SK is scum - we don't worry about factions until we have some information to build connections.)

Show me one post, one statement, where I made the comment that I wanted to distinguish the two factions and hunt for them separately. Go ahead.

You can't find one? Yeah, because that wasn't what I was saying at all. Refer above, since your question is essentially the same as Rhinox's question. Look at the role line-up.

Are you honestly going to sit here and tell me that you play the game the same way whether there is one or two killing parties?

Look, both of you are taking what I've been saying and blowing it way out of proportion because y'all need a D1 punching bag. There's no secret "SK strat" or anything; There's just that there's going to be a lot of movement going on at night and for both of you to sit there and say, "don't even think about an SK especially on D1" is like you're trying to conceal the possibility more than you should. What if, for some reason, only one kill goes through? Are you still going to say that we shouldn't talk about an SK? When is it "appropriate" to talk about the SK?

---

And as for opinions on self-voting, nobody self-voted in this game, and a given player's opinion on self-voting tends to not change from game to game and is therefore not diagnostic, so I really don't care one way or the other what pops, korts or anyone else has to say on the topic. Its a bunch of noise.

To be fair, I asked Rhinox for this information.

Rhinox, you're completely ignoring Korts. Why?

Is Rhinox the only one guilty of this?

---

I don't like the way RedCoyote kicked off the discussion about self-voting then just let it run without commenting further. I also didn't like his buddying up to me in post 51. (I apologise if it was a genuine compliment but I'm wary of such in these games and that one seemed a bit overdone. )

Mostly because Rhinox didn't say what I wanted him to say. I happen to agree with him in the sense that voting yourself draws unnecessary attention to yourself and unnecessarily away from the game.

I don't think it's enough to vote someone without regard to the context of the game, but I certainly can't say he's wrong. Basically I wanted to hear him say, "There's nothing wrong with self-voting, as long as you vote!" or something along those lines.

But mostly I agreed with you because I think the whole discussion over putting a random vote down or not was getting so theoretical that I was just hoping to move the game along.

---

RC's mafia playstyle runs on buddying and sheer Texan moxy

If that's a compliment then thank you

[RedCoyote]

Red's vote on Rhinox is weakly reasoned; he makes a valid point, but I don't see how that indicates anything at all about Rhinox's alignment.

Well, Rhinox is prone to misrepresentation, as is evidenced by his comments in posts 84, 93, and 99.

He's trying to tie me and pops together based on an artifical connection that he created.

My vote is better served on Rhinox at this point than it is on Rishi (which was originally a RV) or on no one. Do you disagree with that?

---

What about no kill?

Which is why, in my mind, it's asinine to say, "omg don't worry about SK we will worry about that at a later, undisclosed date... >.>"

But on D1, there's no reason for us to make any calculations about how many scum there are.

I flatout disagree. I mean, you might as well make the argument that "well, we can't lose on D1 regardless... let's just lynch on page 1".

The more scum there are, the more connections we have to be on the watch for. I don't have to tell you that people interact with each other differently based on knowledge they have.

If that's the case, then wouldn't you think contrasting, say, a discussion between Player A and Player B Day 1 and a discussion between the same two players Day 2 could aid the town in figuring out if one of them knows something that we don't?

For me, yeah, it is important that this town is willing to say that it's probable there is an SK around so I know that the town will be on the look out for this sort of interaction.

If we don't realize this as soon as possible (e.g.

Day 1

), then we're already at a disadvantage.

Putting things in quote tags = actual quote.
Putting things in quotation marks = paraphrase.

That's the way I tend to work it.

Ditto.

Do you think we should be discussing night actions before we end this day?

I absolutely do not think we should take that option off the table.

I was just in a game where we did hypo(thetical) claiming letting everyone know who we would visit if we were so-and-so role. Everyone did it and we came up with an interesting system for doing so.

I'm not necessarily saying this would be a good idea for this game

, but I am saying that we should keep the option open.

---

How will this talk about the SK help us catch scum - any scum - today?

If that was your actual question then perhaps I misunderstood you earlier.

Essentially, it's my opinion that forcing the town to talk about the SK may help the mafia, but in general I think it's good practice to talk about all roles and their implications to the game regardless of what day it is.

That's always pertinent to the game itself and it always helps us poke one another for theories about what is taking place. You tie this in with night actions, all of a sudden you see a couple of strange kills for Day 2.

Okay, bionic died. bionic didn't particularly have one of the more forceful opinions on the SK discussion,

Actually let me stop right here and I will pick up later (possibly over the weekend) I need to get off the computer for a while because of some real life issues.

[RedCoyote]

(picking up exactly where I left off from in post 126)

Okay, bionic died. bionic didn't particularly have one of the more forceful opinions on the SK discussion, what does this mean?

Okay, I died, I was sounding the alarm bells on this town's reluctance to acknowledge the probability of an SK.

Okay, Rishi died, Rishi thought it was ridiculous to talk about an SK.

I don't presume to try to predict what type of mod Vi is, or what roles Vi likes to use and considers balanced. For all I know, this game could be 100% Vanilla... or maybe it contains every single role on the list. You or I don't know, and I want to know how speculating or assuming what is in the setup is going to help you catch the scum today.

That's true, the game could be 100% vanilla.

Let's say it is, has the discussion then, in your mind, been useless?

I guess what I'm trying to say, why do I have the burden of proof? Why do I have to prove to you how it's helpful to discuss the probability of an SK and you don't have to prove how discussing the probability of "dunno wtf the roles could be??? mystery mod!!!" is helpful.

So you're assuming 2 killing parties right now... how are you playing D1 any differently than if there was only 1 killing faction?

If there were two killing parties I would assume (again, trying my best not to push the situation as far as I can) that those parties who may or may not have night actions would necessarily act in a way that would be more approriate to having two killing parties and not one.

Would it make any sense to lynch anyone today on the grounds they might be the sk? And to re-ask the question that I think Rishi was trying to ask, how should we play differently today by assuming there is an SK, as opposed to assuming there is not an SK, as opposed to not assuming any factions at all?

It would make sense to lynch someone on the grounds that they are scum period.

Your questions are becoming so obtuse. Okay, let's not assume there is an SK. Let's assume that everyone is Vanilla. Let's assume that we will lynch a townie today. Let's assume that all discussion today is kind of pointless because we don't know enough. Let's assume today that the night actions will give us weird results therefore giving us a kinda crappy Day 2 discussion as well.

You see where I'm going with this? Why are you trying to draw a line on what is and isn't helpful to the town? To arbitrarily say that all SK talk on Day 1 is useless without any regard for the implications it might have

later in the game

sounds naive to me.

Oh, ok... My bad.

This isn't good enough for me. You had a vested interest in tying me so closely with pops as it helped your argument against him.

---

some other people won't admit it though..

I know the answer to the legs one!

---

(Simple version: The disparity between the actives and the lurkers is startling enough that I am mentioning it so that the lurkers, in fact, start speaking up. Yes, I know the apparent hypocrisy.)

I love your salt story Spy. What troubles me is why you aren't following through with it.

Your pops vote is reasoned enough, but right after you got through telling me how pops is disguising his inability to follow the game with a book of riddles on his shelf, you tell me that all the lurkers in this game are bad news.

---

What does this mean? Do you think that someone trying to teach the game while they’re playing means something about themselves?

I was picked on for stating the obvious, to which my response was that I forget how stating the obvious isn't looked upon as well here as it would be at other places I play mafia.

I wanted to excuse myself mainly because I do think stating the obvious is a versatile tell.

Vi probably knows how roles complement each other but we, the players, do not know how Vi decided on the roles. It’s trying to outguess the mod to think that something is a random choice or not, or an obvious choice or not. That’s what I think you are doing here.

This, however, I do not find to be a versatile tell or a good tell at all really.

The town should always necessarily assume they've been given the worst hand, as should the mafia, as should an SK.

What frustrates me most is that I don't think I should have to explain why that is.

---

I think certain players, like RedCoyote, were avoiding any real issues in this game and avoiding making accusations. You can discuss some theory, but if you're doing nothing but discussing theory, you're just spinning your wheels.

No, absolutely wrong.

For one, I'm certainly not afraid to make any accusations at all. I think Rhinox is guilty of both misrepresentation and preemptively excusing his play as VI-ish.

Two, if your basing your suspicions off of those who aren't willing to push allegations, why am I such a worse fiend than Huntress?

Here's my issue with you, you're running around saying, "Hey, guys! We might have an SK! We should take that into consideration!" But, as far as I've seen (and you can correct me if I'm wrong), you have not offered one specific suggestion on what we should do to account for an SK. Okay, if we're supposed to play differently based on an SK, then HOW should we play differently? That's why it seems like you're creating a lot of noise but not providing any content.

If every way I've brought up still doesn't pass your bar for necessity, try this question on for size.

Does an SK necessarily have an easier time winning this game if we are to ignore (delibrately ignore) his probable presence until we can prove, without a doubt, that he exists?

If we managed to get to Day 3, and by some combination of Doctor saves, double shots, and any other interventional behavior, only one kill has gone through each night, is it then

still

unhelpful to discuss an SK?

---

Do you think our lynch choice, or our way of determining our lynch choice should change based on assuming any setup with any number of scum?

The lynch choice should not change, no, but that's not the question that was being asked.

Maybe I just have a narrow view right now, but all i'm getting out of our back and forth is you saying, "its stupid to assume there isn't an sk", followed by me saying "thats not what I'm assuming, but how does assuming there is one help us?", followed by you responding with "its stupid to assume there isn't an sk."

I will be happy to stop talking about it. I think I've gotten enough insight into you and Rishi based on it.

---

No, that's true, if you state only that. My point is that there are far superior cases to be made and have already been. At this point, you putting a vote on Rhinox for a near nulltell smells of you being afraid to commit to a proper case.

What better case might that be? pops for posting riddles? Huntress for "refusing to vote"?

Get with the program Korts. This is Day 1. No "superior cases" are being made. I'm content with voting Rhinox, and I read what you're saying as borderline defending Rhinox by implying that the case against him is any less valid than one already out there.

If you concede this point, then what gives you the notion that it's still pro-town to talk about it? There may be some huge benefit to the town that I'm missing, but if you can't think of anything like that either, then I don't see any pro-town purpose in discussing this further.

That's why I said 'may' instead of 'will'.

It is

always

pro-town to assume the worst (e.g. an SK). Neither you, Rishi, Rhinox, nor OGML have proven to me otherwise.

---

Anyway, I agree that discussion concerning Huntress and her own contribution should move past this RVS event because I don’t think there’s anymore to be gained and she should catchup in other areas of discussion.

Agreed.

---

Why the specific talk to Rishi?

Why mention Korts and username and leave me oddly out, once again?

pops was canoodling with the mod about riddles and replacements and so forth, that's not good enough for you Spy?

FoS: popsofctown

[RedCoyote]

Well, some of the lurkers have picked it up some. Not enough, but some.

More importantly I think pops is genuinely scummy - and thus we've moved away from the salt metaphor into the classic villainy.

Mmm.

I want to see what pops has to say. I'd like pops to lay it all on the table, tell us where he is, where he's coming from, and where he intends to go with the rest of this day.

---

The point I've been trying to make is that nothing should change D1 based on any idea of a setup. You're argument is that we should prepare for the worst case scenario, but you've yet to explain what preparation we should make or how to support your argument.

I've explained about as best as I can how it can be imperative for a town to be in the mindset that there are two killing parties based primarily on night actions which I think could/would be significantly different on the basis that there is a third-party in this game. If you disagree with that, you disagree with that, but do not pretend like I haven't said it more than once today.

So, you insult everyone by thinking that any town power roles would be too stupid to take into consideration any possible roles when making their night choices?

Rhinox, you are trying your hardest to make sure I don't change my vote.

Night actions are necessarily dependant on the individual's prediction of the roles in the setup. Do you disagree with that?

I mean, how am I insulting anyone? You're the one telling everyone not to think about the possibility of an SK. All I want to make clear is that it's my intent that every player in this town

should necessarily

consider there to be an SK in this game until proven otherwise.

Whether or not they would've come to that conclusion on their own is not my concern. If anything, I have to assume that a lot of players would

not

have based on certain players antipathy toward the idea that someone bring up setup possibilities.

So you can state the obvious, in an attempt to look like a perfect little highly informative townie?

Yeah. You know what, yeah. I'll label myself as "stating the obvious". If you, Jahudo, or Huntress wants to run a case on that basis, so be it.

If you want my personal opinion, I think that's a weak idea of a tell given the context of this setup. There's little room to run with it.

I think this whole SK thing was blown way, way out of proportion. I think I've made it clear that I wanted to move on multiple times, but certain players continue to drag my name in the mud regardless of how I approach the situation.

So if you are going to sit there and say the best tell you've found in this game so far is that I've been "stating the obvious", then so be it.

Thanks for agreeing with my point.

Thanks for delibrately not addressing my statement in its proper context, makes me much more comfortable in my vote.

I'm no more drawing a line between what is pro-town or not than you are... we just have a different idea of where that line is.

No

.

I don't accept you putting our two positions on the same platform. You're entirely the one who is drawing a line. I'm drawing no such line. I don't make arbitrary lines on what a town should and should not discuss in regards to a setup's possibilities. I don't think information should be censored because "we're at Day 1" or "we don't know for sure if such-and-such is a factor" or "we don't know this mod" or any other such nonsense.

That's the entire reason why I made the argument the way I did.

I got the feeling I was the one who spilled the salt in Spy's story... I see nothing to indicate spy is not following it in his only post after posting the story.

I did not get that feeling, nor did I see anything to indicate that Spy did follow through with his castigation of lurkers after making the salt story.

I think the story is apt, but he then proceeded to vote pops. pops is not lurking.

pops is not a lurker. Spy is anti-lurker. Therefore, Spy is anti-pops. Doesn't make sense does it?

I realize there is more to Spy's vote on pops, I'm not doubting that. What I'm having trouble with is Spy pushing his salt story and then blantantly voting someone who was at the proverbial table.

A mafia player would have no interest in convincing the town we should be hunting for an sk, instead of the final mafia player.

Is this Day 5?

I'm sorry y'all made a poor decision. I don't need to read another game to know that scum try to trick the town to keep themselves from being lynched.

My statement does

not

necessarily mean you should assume an SK

as opposed

to regular mafia.

So you don't 100% believe my explanation. Fair enough... I haven't really given you or anyone a reason to trust anything I've said.

Cry me a river, Rhinox.

---

pops, do you have an answer to this question, or were you just throwing in the word 'meta' to make it look like your case was stronger than it actually is?

I believe he's refering to this.

There has very clearly been a stronger case posted against pops than "posting riddles", if you'd care to read the thread. And why do you say "this is Day 1" here? Are you implying that, on Day 1, it is impossible for a stronger case to be made than the one that you have against Rhinox?

I'll be the first one to admit I use hyperbole to make my points.

Despite this, I think Spy has done a much better job convincing me to look at pops than either you or Korts have.

Moreover, I am implying that cases on Day 1 are necessarily weaker than cases on succeeding days. Do you disagree with that?

---

Hypothetically if I knew you were scum 100%, I would still want the day to continue a little longer.

What impressions are you getting from Rhinox being at L-3?

---

So you continued to discuss it even though you thought it was better not to?

No, I didn't say that. I said it ran it's course, as in, I thought there wasn't much left to be discussed. Never claimed that it was "better not to" talk about it.

I'm pretty sure no-one did.

The implication is what counts.

On day one night actions only concern those who have them. Do I see some subtle role-fishing here?

I was pushed into saying it. I was content with leaving it at a disagreement over whether or not setup discussion was good for the town on Day 1, but Rhinox and Rishi both

insisted

that I give them a reason as to why having multiple killing parties makes a determining factor in this game. This forced my hand into talking about things I would rather not have talked about. I'm wondering why you're pressuring me because of this, and not Rhinox or Rishi.

Hell, Rhinox said it himself that it was an insult to think that townies couldn't come to that judgment on their own. If it really was such an insult, why did he push me so hard to say it Huntress? Specifically after I made it clear my intention that I was no longer interested in talking about it.

There's a big difference between being naive about a situation, and wanting to keep quiet about it. As we have been told all possible roles, and as there are no newbies in this game, I think your comments are unnecessary, to say the least.

I accept that there is a difference. On the same token, is it not unnecessary to push one player who happens to have a disagreement of opinion to keep talking about it?

Let me put it another way. If I had stopped talking about the SK altogether, you would've been just as interested in pushing me for ignoring arguments now wouldn't you?

How does this put us at a disadvantage? All interactions are recorded in the thread to be re-read once we have more information. Why is it so important to you that the town actually says it's probable?

Because I feel comfortable knowing the town isn't taking the game lightly.

Why would you not think that?

Let me ask it another way. Is it important to you that your team is willing to consider every possible option? I mean, I'll ask you the same question I asked Rishi. Suppose, hypothetically, that one kill happens every night based on whatever circumstances for the first 3 nights. On Day 4 then, would you still make the argument that it is advantageous for the town

not

to discuss the possibility of an SK and therefore the interation from one player to another?

Why is it that you can arbitrarily draw the line at an undisclosed, later date without feeling as though that puts the town at a disadvantage?

Later in the game, I can see it may well be helpful for the town to discuss roles, but I don't see that right now.

Right. Later at an undisclosed date depending on when you say it's okay.

No, sorry, I don't accept that. Circumstances beyond one player's control necessarily affect the outcome of each night and consequently cause the game to take on different forms. To then say, despite this, that discussing the setup never helps the town is naive at best, dodgy at worst.

---

The guy's nearly unreadable and you take what little scraps i can put together away from me. It makes me very very emo kid.

XD

Being mafia is, like, a million times as much fun as being town.

---

Although I think the SK talk is becoming a sticky point, what about this focus is scummy? I'm having a hard time finding a scum-motive for "WATCH OUT FOR THE SK" in the fashion its been. Is it bordering on silly now? Yes. I'm still not seeing the scum maneuver for it, though.

I absolutely agree with this. The only reason I gave Huntress the time of day is basically because we are welcoming her to the game.

It's unfortunate that her vote is based on "stating the obvious" as her primary tell, which I continue to think is an ancillary tell that should have some deeper connection behind it.

---

bionicchop2 - 0 | Huntress - 0 | iamausername - 0 | Jahudo - 2 | Korts - 1 | My Milked Eek - 2 | OhGodMyLife - 0 - PROD1 3 | popsofctown - 0 | RedCoyote - 1 | Rhinox - 1 | Rishi - 2 | SpyreX - 0

Mod, what does this mean?

---

I don’t think pops is purposely ignoring anyone like Spyrex. Like he said there’s 12 players and I don’ think there’s been enough pages of discussion for a sample size of distancing.

Well, depends on how you are defining "purposely ignoring". My problem with pops was how Spy directly asked him something (and voted him) and pops just kind of had a little discussion with the Mod instead.

Are you making the case that Spy is more guilty of the problems he has with pops than pops is?

Did Rhinox say this thing that you think is naïve? Did he imply it?

Absolutely he did.

Can you explain versatile tell?

I mean to say that when coupled with other things, like lurking for instance, the combination is potentially harsh.

Alone it's much weaker than when you can tie it to something concrete.

do you think a good scum player would make the obvious mistake that I made?

I missed this little gem, when did he say that? If I ever write a dictionary I want this quote to be listed under WIFOM. This is definitive WIFOM.

No wonder Rhinox doesn't think WIFOM is bad, lol.

unvote, vote: Rhinox

You're ALREADY voting for Rhinox... ~Vi

(Just to let username and Korts know that I am not backing down, the case against Rhinox is absolutely

at least

among the strongest here today.)

[RedCoyote]

The crowd wants more RC! I'm happy to oblige

I see it as a BS cover for speculating on the setup and distracting the town from scum hunting.

Like I told Jahudo, I don't see setup speculation as a tell. I'm not convinced talking about the setup hurts the town in anyway other than the point that it gives the mafia a chance to keep the town paranoid.

To me, that's not enough to discount to probability of an SK.

I don't see how any of my actions change by assuming there is an sk, compared to not assuming one...

Alright, well I disagree with this.

What I have said is there is no reason to assume anything at all about the scum factions until there is evidence to support any assumption.

I disagree with this. I think the town should constantly be aware of how many people are left, what the worst possible number of scum there are, what roles they are working with, etc...

This should all be on a townie's (or really even a scum's) mind before they vote to lynch, Day 1 or not.

We all know the setup possibilies... stated very clearly after the rules... And you still haven't shown how any particular town role should play D1 differently by assuming there is an sk.

I have, but you're not willing to say that you agree/disagree with me (you'd prefer to talk in circles).

Moving on... I actually like quote wars

Yeah, I don't mind it. I don't get to post during the day usually so I have to settle for one extremely long post.

I think the town should decide the strength of any tell in context... not what you say is strong or weak.

Seeing as how I'm part of the town, doesn't my opinion deserve the same weight as anyone elses?

You can't have a conversation with someone without thinking you're being attacked? Sounds overdefensive, imo...

I don't think it's a discussion that's producing anything new. I think it's now being used to justify a lynch on me.

Another distortion... aside from this post, please quote where I said anything to point to me even thinking "stating the obvious" was a scum tell, let alone the best one I've found...

So, you insult everyone by thinking that any town power roles would be too stupid to take into consideration any possible roles when making their night choices? Thats what all this has been about?

So you can state the obvious, in an attempt to look like a perfect little highly informative townie?

(emphasis added).

You were being sarcastic here, correct?

I see you forcing a view onto the town and instead of justifying why, you attack anyone who questions you or disagrees with you.

Yeah, I admittedly did push people as to what they thought/didn't think about the SK. I've said multiple times now that I'm finished talking about it, but certain players saw an opportunity to push me on the idea.

I mean, I'm sure whoever is mafia loves your argument right now about sks... get the town paranoid about an sk, so maybe the town PR's spend tonight looking for the ghost sk instead of looking for mafia, or looking for scum in general.

Do you think that's what I'm trying to do?

You still haven't shown how anything you've said regarding the SK discussion is helping the town right now on D1 catch scum.

I have, but you're not willing to say that you agree/disagree with me (you'd prefer to talk in circles).

you said that it was

ALWAYS

pro-town to "assume the worst (i.e. an sk)"... you said nothing about it being day 1 only, or anything else. You said always...

Yeah, it is.

Again, that doesn't mean you should

forget

about actual scum. Assuming the worst doesn't imply that the SK is your only threat, it's just implying that he should never be discounted.

That statement was meant for BC, and not you. So, why the need to respond?

I'm sorry, would you prefer players

not

be allowed to read what people say to other players or respond to it?

How is this scumhunting?

It's passive-aggressive. You were saying that you haven't given anyone a reason to trust what you said.

When people say things like that about themselves, I get worried. I get worried because a player knows whether or not he should be trusted or shouldn't.

If you don't believe people should trust you, why should I?

The fact the you're pretty much using the whole conversation as justification for keeping your vote on me means that the topic obviously hasn't ran its course.

I'm not voting you based on any of this SK stuff. I'm voting you based on WIFOM, your attempts at pairing people off, and because of these little passive-aggressive manipulations you've been using to get people to feel sorry for you.

If you really wanted to be the bigger man, you wouldn't HAVE to have the last word...

Here's what you don't get (and possibly other people, I haven't read any of the succeeding posts),

I'm not voting anyone based on the stance they take on SKs

. I was stating my opinion, someone didn't like my opinion, and this is where we are now.

If you also think this conversation is pro-town, you better damned well be able to explain why. You still haven't done so.

I have, but you're not willing to say that you agree/disagree with me (you'd prefer to talk in circles).

Until 1 of those 4 things happen, I don't care how many times you repeat to take an SK into all considerations, I'm just hunting factionless scum. Its worked for me so far. I've never lost a game because I failed to account for a possible SK on D1. Have you?

I think those are fair points, a shame that no one brought those up earlier.

No, but then again I've never played on MS with an SK before. XD

Second point... what gives you the right to proclaim when its ok or not ok to talk about anything?

I have just as much right as anyone else, and I say it should always be ok to talk about an SK. I do not set limitations on what should or shouldn't happen for a town to talk about roles in a setup.

It wasn't meant as a defense of myself, RC, it was actually a question to bio. Since I didn't exactly have a stellar defense to go along with my mistake, there is nothing to indicate I'm playing like any allignment of a good player so far.

Regardless whether or not you think WIFOM is a good tell, do you dispute that this is a genuine case of it?

So what makes you think I don't think WIFOM is or can be bad?

I retract this point, I misread post 133 (which also has some nice Rhinox WIFOM if anyone is interested).

On one hand, maybe you're trying to make a point, or just be an ass, by unvoting the player you're ALREADY VOTING FOR and voting them again...

I thought it was clear that I realized that.

I was certainly not trying to be an ass, sorry if that was your interpretation.

My point was that I was very comfortable in my vote.

---

I am seeing a ton of repetition in your posts.

And yet you don't see a ton of repetition of the same questions being asked and answered?

You have posted many words, but your case against Rhinox is unclear.

See above.

You challenge people to identify how your talk of a SK is scummy, but I would challenge you to identify how the dissension against such talk is scummy.

I would not word my position in that way. Of course I don't see how talking about the setup, regardless of the Day, is scummy, and I know there are those that disagree with me, but I wouldn't say I've been actively challenging people to prove my contributions were scummy, no. That's misrepresentative.

I do not need a response to this post, except for

My posts are very succinct, it's just they're all mashed together into one as opposed to being spewed across the thread.

---

I don’t see it anywhere.

we should know tomorrow or at some point down the road if there is an sk to deal with, so why worry about it before we know?

I think it's the more risky approach to dismiss the probability of an SK in the game, but I understand your argument.

It was Rhinox's position that talking about the SK on Day 1 is useless, regardless of the implications it might have later in the game, because he thought we would know at some later date.

I said that sort of position seems risky and presumptive, but I understood his point.

The rest, as they say, is history.

---

This question is pure fluff and could not be used in any manner of scum hunting.

Then you take the position that self-voting is inconsequential to a game, correct?

Pops was not accusing me of being SK, but more stating that is would be a horrible move for me if I was SK.

What does this mean?

If someone uses the phrase, "If A is B" that means they are considering the possibility that A is, in fact, B, and not C, like A would have you believe.

Pops said, considering the possibility that you were an SK, that would be a bad move.

How could you read it any other way?

Asking somebody for their opinion on something without stating your own, then coming back and just agreeing with their view sticks out to me.

Are you making the statement that a player should have their opinion on an issue on the record in a game before they ask another player their own opinion on an issue?

Then you finish your response by distinguishing between your 'theory' talk and the other 'theory' talk in the thread

...

There is hypocrisy here, especially in light of your previous comment that there is no clear distinction between good and bad discussion (post 51).

Hence the term "granted".

I thought the SK was a more worthwhile discussion than that of whether or not one should random vote. That's my opinion.

It was also my opinion that the SK was pretty much a finished issue for me since post 78.

It's arguably hypocritical of me to say that it's hard to distinguish between good and bad discussion and then say that I wasn't getting anything helpful over the random vote discussion.

I wasn't. I didn't think the discussion was going anywhere. I thought Huntress made her point and made it well.

Regardless, I think this a fair point against me.

What I haven't seen since this post is a follow up or anything that showed me you were trying to determine if he was scum or not.

I have made note of every point, usually distinctively, that I thought stuck out to me as scum rather than just our general back-and-forth.

Despite that, you specifically identify Rishi as less vote-worthy. Now, my case on Rishi wasn't anything rock-solid or groud-breaking, but you didn't bat an eye at it.

Because Rhinox did something especially damning that I thought was more worthy of my vote than Rishi (e.g. pairing of me and pops).

Rishi, incidentally, was not anywhere near being the best townie in my mind, but my vote was better served on the person I thought was (and still is) the most likely scum.

What I will question is the fact you say it is good practice to discuss all roles. My reason is that you have not discussed other roles. Where is your discussion about the mafia roles? Where do you discuss how we should prepare for and acknowledge that mafia may have a watcher who could identify town power roles at night? Where do you discuss town roles (Please don't)?

Don't ask me questions you don't want the answer to.

Perhaps it stems from playing elsewhere, but I do indeed think talking about role possibilites is good stuff.

Like, for instance (God, this is going to sound like such heresy to you people), a townie Watcher is such a gold mine of an opportunity. It may be worth risking having one player come out, on the basis that there could be a townie Doctor and/or a townie Watcher.

This may help certain roles get information about who is clean in this town (and verifying it over night).

This would be a radical departure from the way MS is normally played, no doubt.

Then again, the more I think about the rationale certain players had for questioning why I would consider the SK a probable enemy, the more slack I have to give them considering the way MS is.

I want so badly to play the newbie card right now ;_;

The one oddity is your FoS of pops, when your major point (from what I can tell) against Rhinox was him making a weak/contradictory case against Pops. You also agree with OGML in your post 108 referenced above that Pops was joking.

Ok, well this is clearcut misunderstanding on your part.

I did think pops was innocent of the things Korts pushed on him.

I did not think, however, that pops was necessarily any more innocent because of that. Spy was right, pops plainly ignored him, and that's suspicious to me.

In regards to Rhinox, my beef was him tying pops to me over a clear case of misrepresentation. Rhinox went beyond reaching to make a pops-RC pair, and that stuck out to me.

Nobody can force you to talk about something.

The deed is done, and I can't reverse time, but I contend that had I just blantantly stopped talking about the SK on post 78 that Rhinox, Rishi, and possibly others would've continually pressured me into talking about it.

You can agree with that or not, but that's the position I have taken.

Failure to evolve discussion of choice into scum hunting

Repetition of points which are IMO safe to discuss since nobody is truly debating the initial logic.

Spinning the statements of those who questioned your methods

Planting seeds of suspicion on pops without making your own case (piggyback onto Spyrex accusations) and wavering on truly committing to an opinion of him.

minor contradictions of statements throughout

unprovoked defenses of players

- I have indeed found multiple instances to justify my vote of Rhinox, none of which are related to the SK discussion.
- Repetition of questions that have been asked and answered.
- What does my "methods" mean? Need a definition of this term.
- I made it clear that I suspected pops because he didn't respond to Spy's direct line of questioning.
- General accusation that can be lumped into any case.
- Giving my opinion on situations as they have arose.

---

Can someone (much like bio did in regards to RC above) simply give me a bulleted list of their reasons for this wagon. Needless to say, I'm still not buying it but it has enough traction that I want to see the rationale without WORDS interfering.

I'll be glad to when I get more time to do so.

---

With a case that awesome, me-tooing is allowed!

:eyeroll:

---

Then who implied that we should assume there isn't an SK?

The implication that "we don't know what the mod does, cannot assume there is an SK". Do you want that post?

You said that you would gladly continue to talk about it. That doesn't sound like your hand was forced, or that you would rather not talk about it, or that you were no longer interested in talking about it.

You're now talking about two different things. The SK discussion and discussing roles in general.

I can't tell if you are doing this on purpose or not.

I think that's legitimate scum-hunting. The fact that you responded to it in the way you did is telling.

Ok, so then you do think the town should discuss the roles in the setup. I'll rememeber that for later.

Not necessarily.

Perhaps, but I contend you would have.

For you to fault me in this instance is questionable.

By a later day we will have more information, however many kills there are, so the circumstances will be different. I can't predict at this stage how soon that will happen.

Indeed, so you'd prefer to discuss the SK an an undisclosed, later date and fault those who do so before this undisclosed, later date.

I think that's ambiguous and restrictive based on conditions that have not been set. It is my opinion that that is not helpful to the town.

This is not true. What is your justification for claiming this? And why are you are seeking to discredit my vote by claiming that it is based on a non-tell like this?

Because neither you nor Rhinox (but he's not voting me so he's excused) have laid out a proper case against me, you've therefore assigned me the burden of making assumptions as to why you are voting me.

Because the "SK talk" has been the prime discussion topic you've had with me, I can only assume that my habit of "stating the obvious" (e.g. that I think there is probably and SK and that we should assume that there is) is unsettling to you and is what primarily caused you to vote me.

You've mentioned other, minor things (e.g. I was defending your lack of a vote), but you've failed to make them significant factors in your most recent posts.

---

This seems like a major issue regarding RedCoyote. I can't think of a single thing he's done this game aside from make a lot of noise about how we need to be wary of a possible SK.

I believe this is what Spy feels as well as what bionic had felt at one point in time.

But far be it from me to put words in their mouth, they are welcome to speak for themselves.

Because with all the effort he's spent shouting OMG SK GUYS DON'T FORGET THE SK he's managed to not actually scumhunt one iota, for all his reams of contribution to this game.

That's either a lie or it's ignorant.

Despite all I've answered for, I've still managed to point out reasons I've found Rhinox to be scummy (none of which having to do with the SK argument).

I put my vote on him for a reason guys.

If you want my opinions of other people, just ask me. Rhinox and pops are my biggest worries at the moment. My offense will necessarily be affected the longer I have to spend addressing points made against me. You can call that an excuse if you'd like, but I'm calling it realistic.

Thats interesting. Why is it that you need somebody to convince you to look at anyone? Shouldn't you be looking at

everyone

of your own volition?

Yeah, one should.

...

And?

...

Obviously what I meant by that statement was that Spy did a better job bringing a case against pops than Korts did. Spy helped draw my attention to pops in a way that I had not previously noticed him. It was, in fact, necessary for Spy to do so because it was pops' ignorance of Spy that made me suspect him.

The more I think about your statement here, the more I dislike it. You are looking for something to throw at me if you actually think I'm saying that "I wouldn't have looked at pops at all this game if it wasn't for Spy". That's complete misrepresentation.

The only kind of evidence lacking from day one cases which may be present in later cases is connections to already dead scum.

And why is this evidence not as solid as any other piece of evidence?

Anything past the first day will only grow if only due to the fact that the town

will have

more information on next day.

Again, I think you are just looking for something to throw at me if you actually believe this. How is it even possible that having more information would mean being less informed about other roles?

[RedCoyote]

I think RC is trying to tie himself to me actually. Defending me, but not addressing any accusations i make against him (addressing everyone else's instead). And then the awkward turtle FoS he made that one time, that was weird.

I'd actually be content if you were today's lynch pops, I think you've done a great job flying under the radar.

---

I'm going to go ahead and go on

offense

a little bit, seeing as how no one has asked for my claim yet. Usually I don't mind addressing questions brought up for me, but it really is beginning to get out of hand, especially when Huntress and Spyrex haven't even made an updated post yet. So to those of you who want me to defend myself more, I say that if the lynch is coming down to me and Rhinox, then I shall be the one to make an official case against Rhinox.

I'll go ahead and do an analysis of what I took notes on, although at the moment I would be comfortable with

anyone besides me

pops being the pick today as well (this isn't to say I'm necessarily

against

anyone else, it's just that these two specifically I think are the bigger offenders).

No Random Vote

I still believe not RV is anti-town, but null in terms of finding scum. And I just don't feel like hopping up on my soapbox about it this time.

Nothing too bad here as the game is just beginning. I just wanted to point out how I wasn't very fond of "I think such-and-such is anti-town, but I'm not going to talk about it".

I later come to Huntress' defense, and still think her position was justified in that breaking from the norm (RV) can indeed provoke an emotional response from other players. A response can easily lead to a great way to begin the game's discussion.

Also, what are you learning from this conversation?

Well, I'm learning that something as small (IMO) as foregoing a random vote can cause you to speak up.

Why are you not mentioning My Milked Eek, who also posted without voting?

Well, I never said everyone has to RV in their very first post, I just think its better if everyone does it.

This rubs me the wrong way too. It doesn't seem genuine.

I think it's more likely that Rhinox simply forgot about MME, he didn't notice him because he didn't write the same thing that Huntress wrote.

Again, nothing major, it just feels fake to me.

Continue down the page, little else can be said, he is talking about Mafia 87 a lot. He's also trying to feel bionic, which is a good thing.

I don't view any conversation as useless, so long as its mafia related.

Except for not voting instead of random voting (and later, I contend, SK talk).

I'll rephrase my question: Would discussion about [Huntress] being scum for not random voting be helpful to the town, assuming [Huntress is] town?

Going back to earlier. Maybe Rhinox sincerely feels this way, but to me it sounds like he's going to great lengths to basically justify calling Huntress out for not voting.

Discussing the SK (to get it out of the way)

My point was, we should know tomorrow or at some point down the road if there is an sk to deal with, so why worry about it before we know?

Bare with me as Rhinox posts a lot, but I read this as saying that we shouldn't assume there is an SK and we shouldn't talk about it until it's proven.

My entire beef with this philosophy is that it seems entirely too restrictive and unnecessary. I can easily picture the circumstance of an SK shooting a townie and the mafia shooting an SK (for the first time). Couple that with a mislynch or no usable information and the town might be starting to sweat a little bit. It's more anti-town to me to want to effectively ignore the SK until proven otherwise than it is to restrict SK discussion lest the mafia benefit (which they may).

I don't expect everyone to agree with me, this is just my position on the subject. Moving on...

But my point is... unless there are sk kills, there is no reason to suspect an sk, nor hunt for one.

Now I never suggested we hunt for an SK as a separate strategy, that was brought up here by Rhinox.

Then there is a discussion over self-voting, which I had no idea was such a thorn in the community's side (no wonder Huntress hassled me about it).

[RC], you insult everyone by thinking that any town power roles would be too stupid to take into consideration any possible roles when making their night choices? Thats what all this has been about? So you can state the obvious, in an attempt to look like a perfect little highly informative townie?

Misrepresentation that came off very strongly to me.

Pairing up

Pops: Anything you can divine from from the rest of the conversation about sks?what do you think of RC's comments about SK?

RC is saying that we should assume the worst until better is proven. Ok, sure. The way he discusses it though is not as curt it should be though, which gives me a slight scum vibe. I've decided to read this player mostly on meta, because when i read him just like everyone else he consistently slips by, so i might be using poorly explained reasons some this game, i'll try to be glass man like Korts as much as possible though.

Also, your jumping to the defense of RC without letting him answer questions directed at him himself, is noted.

This is when I start to think Rhinox is bad news instead of just someone I have an honest disagreement with.

Nowhere in post 82 is pops defending me. In fact, contrarily, he says he's already getting a slight scum vibe off of me. pops makes it clear that he understands the point I was making, and that's about all I can get from it.

Moreover, pops was only addressing me to begin with because Rhinox

asked

him to. Is he setting pops up for certain circumstances?

In post 88 Rhinox calls bio suspicious but specifically says that he doesn't find him scummy. Rishi brings this up again later.

Here pops jumps to RC's defense after I asked RC questions, whithout giving RC a chance to answer the questions himself. In the same paragraph, however, its giving him a slight scum vibe. This sounds like fence-sitting, and a bad attempt at distancing.

This is just misrepresentation.

∙ Rhinox asks pops to give his opinion on me (80)
∙ pops answers Rhinox's question, stating that my stance gave off a slight scum vibe (82)
∙ Rhinox votes pops (84) and cites post 82 as his primary reason for doing so (88, 91)
∙ Rhinox clarifies that he indeed thinks pops' is defending me, saying that "I never had an chance to answer", despite the fact that he asked pops directly to give his opinion on me

This entire exchange takes about seven hours.

On a different note, I do very much think Rhinox has a point that pops' basing his suspicions of me on one meta game he had with me is not good scumhunting, but that's neither here nor there.

Nevertheless, bionic asks the question before I get a chance to here,

Rhinox - I missed the part where you directly asked pops about RC. How do you justify jumping on him for 'defending' RC when he was answering your question?

Rhinox responds to these concerns by unvoting pops and giving a pretty emotional rant in post 111.

I tell him in post 152 that his appeal isn't good enough for me. Essentially, I'm not writing this off as a simple mistake. Not only does Rhinox end up using this mistake to his advantage (discussed below) but his quick punishment of pops for "defending me" sounds completely artifical. The fact that he suggests pops may be attempting to distance himself from me by calling my position "slightly scummy" seems almost entirely founded in creating something out of nothing.

This would not prove to be Rhinox's worst tell however.

WIFOM

This is wifom, but what would be the benefit of saying "oops I'm just a VI who made a scummy mistake?" if I were actually scum. Why wouldn't I just make up some BS about how even though you were answering my question I still found it overly defending RC and scummy

Just because Rhinox tells us it's WIFOM, doesn't mean it's any less scummy. This post was addressing pops' concerns (not mine) for characterizing him as defending me.

He continues to tell us he admitted to his mistake and he's very distressed about it. That's all well and good, but it's as if Rhinox is trying to use it to bolster himself up (e.g. if I was mafia I definitely would not make that mistake ).

In post 118 he is showing bionic some more love.

If the appeal to emotion is what making you vote me now, then I might as well just stop talking because there is nothing I could say to change your opinion of me. What I have said is honest. I know you don't have a problem using wifom, so do you really think that it would have been beneficial for me to be THAT honest as scum?

More WIFOM. I wonder if Rhinox still remembers that the whole point of his defense was because he forgot he asked a question of pops. It looks here like he's just trying to justify his appeals rather than explain why it is he made the decision.

More than a little defensive, but mostly it helps to confirm my idea that he is using his "slip up" as an excuse to make himself look good.

...but if opportunity knocks, you know?

bionic refers to a meta game in which Rhinox and himself were both a part of. He implies that the mafia was actively using WIFOM to defend themselves, and asks why Rhinox appears to be blantantly using WIFOM here if that's the case.

Rhinox response was that the game wasn't "fresh in his head", despite it being his most recently completed game.

Unfortunately for me, there just hasn't been enough time for ANYONE to have stacked up a mountain of overwhelming town play... if you guys quicklynch me, that won't change. If you don't, then maybe I can turn around and be more pro-town.

Putting this statement under WIFOM for a specific reason. The point he's trying to make is that by not lynching him he will be able to prove he is town.

It's an appeal, it's as if he wants us to believe that if he were scum, he would not be able to create a "mountain of overwhelming townie play", but because he is town, he needs to be kept alive to do it.

Call it circular reasoning, call it WIFOM, call it an appeal... I'll just call it bad news.

so, you're saying if I'm scum, that I'm a good scum player who will be able to explain away my mistake. Although even good scum players can make some mistakes, do you think a good scum player would make the obvious mistake that I made?

Repeating the same WIFOM to bionic.

That [appeal] is a little extreme, but I think you know that.

You're right... maybe I was being a little melodramatic... but does it make what I said any less true?

Ugh. It's like he says understands why his statement is scummy, but asks if it counts anyways (because Rhinox's statements are

too scummy

to be used by scum).

I concede that a lot of my defense is WIFOM and thus inherantly not trustworthy... But it was the truth.

I did not edit this statement in anyway, and it's the perfect segue to what I believe to be Rhinox's worst offenses.

Passive-Aggression/Defeatism - Emotional Manipulation

Aparently nothing I can say to stop [the wagon on me], since my defenses are overrated ::eyeroll::

I have a personal tell that I look for. I say personal because I'm not sure if it is widely-recognized or not.

I don't like it when people get pessimistic.

To me, townies should always have some sort of zeal, some sort of indignation in their hearts when they are being voted or fear they are going to be lynched.

Granted, not everyone has the same sort of personality, but I will accept a townie getting supremely frustrated with their fellow players before I will accept a townie beating

themselves

up, even in jest, over being voted.

If you agree with that, then this statement would likely stand out to you as well.

So you don't 100% believe my explanation. Fair enough... I haven't really given you or anyone a reason to trust anything I've said.

I do not care for post 154 in general, but this statement really takes the cake.

This kind of talk completely registers on my scum radar, and I let Rhinox know about it:

Cry me a river, Rhinox.

Resulting to ad hom now to try to get me lynched, or at least get a rouse out of me?

That statement was meant for BC, and not you. So, why the need to respond?

What does this statement add to anything? How is this scumhunting?

(emphasis added).

[RC's] Question asked toward Rishi, but I would like to answer for myself.

Threw a little contradiction in there for good measure, but my point is that I saw the earlier statement in post 154 as a means of both buddying up to bionic and, at the same time, acting completely emotionally manipulative.

I'll concede the scumminess of [my little emotional manipulations], and hope its not enough to get me lynched.

Like Rhinox accurately pointed out, just my bringing up the word "newbie" is enough to be effectively playing the card.

Just Rhinox bringing up that he is guilty of these appeals and saying that he hopes we look past them is simply another case of manipulation (either for good or bad).

Finally, although I agree with post 207, I do not like the fact that each sentence ends in an ellipsis (but, since Rhinox does this quite often, I don't consider it to be much of a tell in his case).

Missing some pieces

Oh, ok... guess I missed the explanation the first time.

In post 177 Rhinox had forgotten Korts' explanation of his playstyle. This isn't anything major, I could see this as innocently forgotten, but it's just something I wanted to add.

Summary:

∙ Potential cover-up for his ignorance of MME, unnecessarily frustrated with Huntress and unwillingness to explain why
∙ Potentially dragging out the SK argument longer than necessary, blowing parts out of proportion in order to detract from tells he has been exhibiting
∙ Intentionally misrepresenting the relationship between pops and myself based on circumstances he created
∙ Retracting said misrepresentation noth with the motivation of clarification but rather with the continual motive of self-preservation
∙ The flagrant, admitted use of WIFOM in order to make defensive statements
∙ A conspicuously close relationship with bionic that seems to produce little in the way of hunting.
∙ The flagrant, admitted use of appeals to manipulate other players in instances that are primarily preemptive but also in response specifically to those who show suspicion of him.
∙ Forgetting two important happenings in the game that have caused him to apologize for not properly reading/recalling the game (e.g. asking pops a question/Korts' activity)

[RedCoyote]

EBWOP: ∙ Retracting said misrepresentation not with the motivation of clarification but rather with the continual motive of self-preservation

By the way pops, what points did you want me to address that I haven't addressed already? Point me to a specific post that I ignored and I will answer it for you.

[RedCoyote]

Actually, I'm just pointing out the fallacy that OGML is sneaking in.

I absolutely think this is a valid point.

If

the lynch today ends up being one of us, I surely hope that the town does not forget OGML's proposal.

Not so much his bus prediction, but the fact that he dedicated an entirely new post (211) to bringing it back up to the surface with no further explanation or call for it.

I understand why you're summarizing the case on me, but I hope you'll dedicate a similar post toward why you think pops should be today's lynch, since he's your preferred choice. Also, your crossing out of "anyone but me" to me implies that your motive for supecting me and/or pops is only one of self-preservation - you don't care who gets lynched as long as its not you.

You misunderstand me here on two points.

I do, in fact, think you are the better lynch today Rhinox, I was merely stating that I would not be opposed to a pops lynch either. pops is one of the weakest followers of the wagon on me, and his claim that he has some sort of great meta on me is complete bunk.

Further, the words that I stuckout was my own lame attempt at humor. I do absolutely care who gets lynched, and I believe I made that point clear when I took the time to explain how the case against you was not as weak as someone like Korts has implied.

That being said, I'm not going to lie and say that I'd rather be lynched than someone who I think is town at the moment (Spyrex, bionic).

My opinion of the scum player was that he got lynched for admitting to not scum hunting and being an active lurker, and I still have no idea what sort of wifom slip or contradiction was made.

As I understood the game was decided on a scum player that used a WIFOM defense. If this is inaccurate, then I misread the conversation between you and bionic and I apologize.

When I questioned you for jumping in, it wasn't that I felt you shouldn't respond to anything not directed at you, I was saying that your response was nothing more than a personal attack against me, didn't advance the conversation, and was not scumhunting in any way. You just took it as an opportunity to take a jab at me.

I do not see it that way. I was having an SK discussion with you just as I was having one with Rishi.

I'm trying to scumhunt in this game, just like any other townie. When I see something so blantantly manipulative as "I've made mistakes already so I don't blame you if you don't trust me.... *sniff sniff*" I would like to make a note of it. You may or may not consider that a tell, but I do happen to see that as scummy.

Now you hassling me over the appropriate pronoun, lol, you probably have a point there. My point wasn't to offend you, it was to let you know that I caught another emotional manipulation and that not only will I not give you sympathy for it, but I think it's scummy.

---

@RC- since when do you wait to be addressed before responding? You've just taken an atypically small initiative about interacting with me.

Since the entire town decided to come at me all at once. XD

Seriously, did you have a specific post to point me to over individual questions you have that I actually ignored or are you just throwing some vote justifications out there to see what sticks? I picked you out specifically because to me you seem to stick out like a sore thumb in this bandwagon.

---

IMO limiting it to just you vs. Rhinox is not the best move.

That's not my intention, but if that's how the chips are falling then I figure I might as well give people some reason to consider another player before putting the axe on me.

You do realize, bionic, that OGML has made it clear that he has no problem voting me should the lynch tide go my way?

If you truly are concerned that the way this day is headed is not the best move for me (and, subsequently, the town) then I suggest you unvote.

[RedCoyote]

When I wrote that, I was unclear if you thought pops was more lynch-worthy than Rhinox and it seemed like you were resigning yourself to a me vs. him type thing. You have made it clear now that pops is a secondary suspect, so attacking Rhinox as your top suspect makes sense to me.

Okay, I understand.

Rest assured that if I did think pops was the more worthy target I would've made the case for him instead.

[RedCoyote]

Why is it bunk? Do you think it’s fabricated?

Well, I know it is. He's basing it off of one newbie game. That's allegedly his only real reason for his vote being up, because he wants to test a meta.

---

Sorry to see you go Korts.

Hey all, replacing for Korts.

Hi CF!

---

If you don't assume anything about my allignment, is an emotional appeal manipulative? Can you even argue that its scummy at all?

That just strikes me as more WIFOM Rhinox.

---

No, its not the same question or answer exactly, but it is the same point over and over again. Its not getting anywhere, and its bogging down the thread in huge posts that haven't got a thing to do with actual gameplay.

If pops has flown under the radar, you are at least guilty of trying to do the same thing by filling pages with the same damn argument back and forth about whether or not its OK to talk about whether or not there is an SK. I would call that an attempt to hide in plain sight.

Which is why I requested multiple times that the discussion needn't go on. I could see there was going to be no meeting of the minds, but there was an honest disagreement.

I know on epic people just can't get enough of day one claiming, and its very often the right strategy, but thats because the setup is entirely open, not semi-open. Semi-open is still also semi-closed. Just because there could be a town doctor or watcher does not mean there IS one of those roles, so a power role claiming is just asking to be nightkilled. In essence, you are blatantly role fishing.

About the response I expected.

Let me ask you OGML, if a defensive role "fishes" for roles with the intention on protecting them, that's bad in your eyes too?

Saying you want to play the newbie card is, in fact, playing the newbie card. I know you are a good player on epicmafia, I know you are not a stupid person, so I don't see how the above point about the difference between open and semi-open could really escape you, MS newb or otherwise.

Who said the difference escaped me?

Who says the risk of having a role come out is greater or lesser than that of the town mislynching or misreading another player?

Well, since you are on the RC wagon, I don't doubt that that is true.

What does this mean?

Translation: Anybody but meeeee!

Do you contend that town would act differently from scum in this respect?

What teamwork! Its glorious! Two scum, working in tandem to try to make the fact that I've got them nailed look suspicious.

What the heck does that fact that its an entirely new post have to do with it? I was reading along, didn't have time for an in depth post, but wanted to put my opinion out there so it would be situated near the post that set off alarm bells.

Oh, I just asked the town to make a note of it, I don't expect you to concede that it looks supicious of you to keep beating on the drum as it were.

What exactly is wrong with this, and why do you have to appeal it to the authority that is bio?

What about this do you consider appealing to authority? Did you miss post 228 when bionic said he misunderstood me?

Additionally, there's nothing wrong with it from your perspective. If bionic is having doubts about who is being lynched however, then there is indeed something wrong with his vote.

In this thread, RedCoyote appeals to fear.

Oh, well, it's just the truth. Don't let it be said that I didn't try my hardest to provide an alternative lynch for real reasons (which no one has rebutted) as opposed to accepting this wagon on me based primarily on "stating the obvious" and "not scumhunting".

I also think that if RC has a claim to make it should be made earlier rather than later.

We'll see what CF Riot has to say.

---

Exactly. So no RC, I don't want that one. I want the post, if it exists, where someone implied that we should assume there isn't an SK.

No, because now I disagree with the way you are defining the comment. I realize you are trying to trap me, and I don't think you are any more scummy for doing so, but you're getting overexcited about a conclusion that doesn't have the same definition that I do. You originally asked me why I said that I thought it was humourous that a player would assume there isn't an SK and told me no one said that.

But it was the implication that we should assume there isn't an SK,

You can't do that on Day 1, so saying we should assume there are two killing factions right now on D1 and play accordingly is silly.

I realize you disagree with me, I realize you don't think talking about the SK is good until you feel comfortable about it.

The impression I was getting around this town is that the SK doesn't exist until it is proven so, and that impression did not sit well with me.

It was all part of the same discussion.

No it wasn't.

I will gladly continue to talk

about why

I think it serves the town much

better to assume that there is an additional scum (e.g. Serial Killer)

than not, Day one or no.

You're trying to equate this statement with the idea that I wanted to talk about night actions and role possibilities.

Although that sort of discussion does not carry the same stigma with me, that is a far cry from talking about whether or not we should assume there is an SK today.

No I don't. Not at this stage of the game anyway. Putting pressure on you is legitimate scum-hunting.

Again, it's a matter of ignoring questions directed to me.

I contend that you (or another player) would've hated my ignorance of questions directed at me at least as much as my answers.

Unless you make the claim that it is not scummy for one player to ignore another.

Yes, I had noticed. It's interesting that you're nervous about it.

How is being comfortable with lynching someone "tying themselves" to them? Both you and OGML brought this up, and I flatly disagree.

I wasn't hassling you about the self-voting issue as such; just the fact that you asked a question, created a lot of discussion, but never showed any interest in the responses.

Mostly because Rhinox didn't say what I wanted him to say. I happen to agree with him in the sense that voting yourself draws unnecessary attention to yourself and unnecessarily away from the game.

I don't think it's enough to vote someone without regard to the context of the game, but I certainly can't say he's wrong. Basically I wanted to hear him say, "There's nothing wrong with self-voting, as long as you vote!" or something along those lines.

---

1.) What does Huntress or I have to do with answering questions presented to you?
2.) Why, in the name of everything holy, would you create a false dictomy and push a self-preservation wagon (even IF you thought Rhinox was 100% USDA Choice scum, this wording is a giant red flag).

1.) The fact that I already had quite a lot of points to respond to before either of y'all had made a recent post.

2.) I don't even know how I should respond to this. There are a limited number of days left today, indeed my most pressing issue should be self-preservation.

Due to the fact that no one was taking the initiative to provide an alternative lynch, I took the opportunity to lay a case against the person I thought to be most scummy.

I was the first person to vote Rhinox outside of the random votes.

Although

now

I'm under unfortunate circumstances, Rhinox was certainly not a name I picked out of a hat or decided to choose because he is the runner-up in votes. Believe it or not, I actually do think Rhinox is scum Spy. I can't tell you how disappointed I am that after you requested someone make an official case against Rhinox in a similar style to that of bionic, this is all you were able to get from it. The insinuation that me pushing Rhinox is based purely on motives of self-preservation is completely misguided. I've had my vote on Rhinox for a week now, so please don't tell me that this comes as some sort of shock to you that he would be the person I voted.

I'd like your response to this sooner rather than later, Spy.

I'm still perplexed at how hard it is/was/has been at gettign a concise list on Rhinox OR RC, really (sans bio).

In general I'm very disappointed in the response (or lack thereof) to the case I created yesterday. I'm disappointed especially in Spy and Huntress for outright dismissing it.

In Huntress' case I can only assume that she's not willing to hear other arguments, and in Spy's case I knew that he was the one more interested in seeing an official case on Rhinox, yet he didn't so much as acknowledge that in this quote here.

But

I hold out hope in Jahudo, Rishi, CF Riot, username, and MME to give the argument a fair shake before letting this lynch go through.

[RedCoyote]

Looking back at post 108 I don't see how you can claim it wasn't part of the same discussion.

My point is that wanting to discuss why the town should be aware of an SK != wanting to discuss night actions.

Post 108 was written after I made that point, in post 101, so does not negate it, if that is what you're trying to do by quoting it here.

Not entirely sure what you're driving at, but I was just explaining to you that I had already addressed this. If you choose not to accept my explanation, I'd rather you say that than imply that I hadn't already responded.

I am perfectly willing to hear all the arguments, but that doesn't mean I'm going to just accept them, and your attempt to put me in a bad light here just reflects back on you.

I am admittedly frustrated because I feel you are more interested in calling me to task over what you see as improper discussion on the first day rather than considering the possibility that I may not be scum for it.

---

I've never seen something like this before. Yes it makes me nervous, and if he's scum it's a pretty good tactic because i'm at that medium level of suspicion that the tie would get me D2 lynched pretty easily based on connection.

Do you mean to say that "tying you up" means that I, as scum, am trying with my last few posts to sever connections with pops by throwing suspicions toward him?

Can someone enlighten me what "tying up" means? I'm under the impression it means like buddying up to someone.

---

I don't know how many of those were specifically mentioned by you earlier, or just added when put under pressure. For now I will drop that point in my case against you.

Hm.

In general do you think Rhinox's behavior is similar to his townie meta then?

---

Now, see, thats the thing. I don't care how much time is left and if you're on the block or not - the goal isn't self preservation. The goal is finding scum.

Spy, usually I would agree with this, but there's more to this point than you may assume.

Regardless,

For the most part this reads as a justification after the fact, though.

is basically what bionic said, and I think it's offbase. I think CF Riot is getting many of the same vibes I get from Rhinox. Just because he uses WIFOM and appeals so casually doesn't necessarily mean they are any less scummy coming from him. I feel as though some players in this game are falling into a rhetorical trap to where Rhinox is essentially saying, "Well, I'm just being Rhinox!" and it's getting y'all to literally write off tells you may normally be more weary of.

You realize this is the same "appeal" business you're getting after Rhinox for - and you're acting like I, who do think BOTH of you are town still, am ignoring whats going on.

I don't think you are ignoring what's going on, but I think you are being too forgiving. What mainly upset me was that you were the person who asked for a more formal case against Rhinox, and after I spent the time to create one you were like, "OH BTW RC can't do it cuz it will just look like self-preservation ty ^_^".

What do you think of CF Riot's contribution?

---

1. Post 78 asks everyone to give their opinion on pops' suspicion without giving his own opinion first. Possibly feeling up a wagon to see if it's viable.
2. Said he was open to discussion role possibilities but didn't go into mafia roles. Selective to the SK role.
3. Misrepresenting Rhinox's position on SK talk. RC says Rhinox finds it "useless" day 1; Rhinox says it's better tomorrow when we know more.

1.) Which is why I'm so frustrated that I'm being called out for "lack of hunting". I consider post 78 to be scumhunting. Perhaps I shouldn't have followed up OGML with agreement, but I thought Korts was being a little too nit-picky.
2.) Fair point.
3.) I still disagree with this. The implication was there, from more people than Rhinox, that any and all SK discussion on D1 was useless, without use to the town. Rhinox specifically said time and again that he did not think the discussion had merit on D1, which is the definition of useless. I wouldn't even say I am exaggerating, I'm just making the point more clear. To be sure, ask Rhinox if he thinks the SK discussion has use for the town on D1. It's what we had been arguing about for several pages. If he says it does, then I will concede this point.

---

Sorry about the forthcoming wall... but you guys aren't really giving me much of a choice...

Just seems more like [Spyrex is] adding fuel to my plane thats crashing and burning.

I understand now why players flake out and give up - there is literally nothing I can say now that isn't followed by an "ZOMG SCUM!!" (example: this will be quoted as another AtE... ::Rolling Eyes:: )

I'm claiming now

because there is absolutely no way to defend myself

right now.

What I said, in a melodramatic sarcastic way, is that

nothing I could say would help me. And thats been proven to be true 100%.

Nothing I have said has helped me, and everything I've said has just been digging a bigger hole. So it is true, and my statement does count.

(emphasis added).

Appeal after appeal. It's like Rhinox thinks that if he keeps getting emotional that I will eventually say, "Oh, wow, maybe this isn't scummy after all". Sorry Rhinox, that isn't going to happen. I just don't think townies talk like this. It's manipulative and guilt-driven.

I don't see how this should be a point against me at all... The core of my argument has always been, "No town players decision should be effected D1 by assuming anything about factions". RC argues that decisions would change if we assume there is an sk, but I have still never seen a reason why. Is there anything scummy about my statement?

This was less a point against you and more an attempt to sum up the discussion from my point of view, hence my addition on "just getting this out of the way".

If I'm scum, did I just think that 8 or 9 town players just would't have noticed that I specifically asked pops about you? Does this sound like something scum would intentionally do, knowing they would probably get called out for it?

To boil down the entirely block into facts and not a creative writing short story, this is basically my entire use of WIFOM:

I'm asking the town to consider whether making a mistake/inconsistancy like I did is something that town are more likely to do, scum are more likely to do, or either can do equally.

Here Rhinox uses the same WIFOM that I accused him of earlier. I suspect, again, he keeps repeating it to get me and others to believe that it's okay when he does it.

Saying I was trying to pair pops and RC is nothing more than looking back, after the fact, trying to post-rationalize it into something its not in an attempt to tie off every loose string to "prove" that I'm scum.

No, I made it clear at the time that I didn't like your post there, mistake or not.

I'm starting to get the feeling that the reason I'm being voted/suspected now has little if anything to do with the actual inconsistency I had, and more to do with me frantically trying to explain it.

I contend you went further than that even. You tried to spin the situation in such a way that you

had

to be town for making a blunder like that. To me it seemed you were really pushing people, bionic in particular, to get them to say something like, "Oh, it's ok Rhinox, this explanation makes you seem really town".

So you're right when you say frantically trying to explain it, but you were also frantically trying to manipulate other players into acknowledging how you must be townie because of it. To me, the way you handled the situation is not what I would expect of a townie.

OGML, I know from meta does not fall into confirmation bias, and when town, argues that simpler explanations are usually more accurate. In this game, the more the discussion goes on, the more outrageous the story becomes to continue to support his pet theory that RC and I are both scum.

I agree with this point.

I have not been pessimistic, I have not given up

...

I guess I shouldn't be too worried about it though... This game should really help out my meta whenever I'm in a game where I'm

actually

scum... :shrug:

:\

"Missing some pieces"

Moar filler please... Just more crap piled on in hopes to overwhelm with quantity.

I think it's a valid point when you forget important details of the game. To me this implies that you are more interested in making a post about something to look good than you are trying to be actually honest and helpful.

And RC still never said how any town player should play differently, assuming there is an sk, on D1.

This was addressed multiple times and you still continue to bring it up. Just because you don't like my answer doesn't mean I never gave you one.

I feel a common fault of townies under pressure is that they become 100% defensive, and stop making cases. Then, right before they're lynched, someone throws on top "you haven't even been scum hunting all game, you've only been focused on not getting yourself lynched" as sort of a nail in the coffin. Its understandable thought... its hard to get a word out when you're getting screamed at from every direction.

XD

I agree with this too! Don't let Spy wail on me for not going on offense if I'm lynched today!

struck for sarcasm purposes... its wifom, so I better not say it. Even if it makes complete sense.

What I think you don't get Rhinox is that WIFOM is bad, at least in my eyes, because it assumes another player has the same information you do. Yeah, to you your own WIFOM makes perfect sense, you know what role you are and you know how you act in any given situation, but to someone else it is not necessarily as obvious. WIFOM could be 100% honest, no doubt, but it could also be an epic fabrication. It's a way to manipulate other players, a way to tell them how they should act when the only evidence you give them is a complete hypothetical.

---

Just found out somebody I knew was on the plane that crashed near Buffalo.

So sorry to hear that OGML.

---

But i can't clearly decide if i feel that way because of your massive AtE or because of actual evidence you've shown.

That's the beauty of pathos arguments.

If it is going to come down to lynch Rhinox or not today that is.

Let's

hope

you don't think Rhinox is innocent enough to forgo lynching in order to keep him around.

[RedCoyote]

I know it would be a mistake to lynch me at all. To a lesser extent, I'm not sure RC would be a good lynch either, but

from my point of view, he would be a better lynch than me

.

(emphasis added).

Spy, I thought this kind of talk was your favorite, most townie talk?

YOU BE THE JUDGE.

As I've stated before, pops is easily the sketchiest member on my wagon. Primarily for ignoring questions, voting me for bad reasons, saying "Rhinox, you seem less scummy to me right now" and "now i have to lynch [Rhinox]" in the same post, and making wild allegations the likes of which have not been substantiated (e.g. claiming I didn't respond to his concerns without providing us with examples when asked to, claiming that I am and have been "tying" myself to him).

pops was right to post riddles. He's one big riddler, one big joker. He speaks in riddles and a lot of townies 'round here are just gobbling it up.

As for the other two players, Huntress' worse offense in my eyes is tunnelvision, and Rishi' biggest offense is likely jumping on my bandwagon with little to no independent reasons for doing so. I don't think I would like either one lynched, but if I had to choose it would be Huntress.

---

Rishi scum more probable than Huntress scum more probable than Pops scum.

pops is pretty townie in your eyes, bionic?

Additionally, taking me out of the picture, how does Rhinox's play sit with you (basically the same question I asked in 281)?

---

Thank you for replacing Moriarty. How do you feel on me and Rhinox so far? Do you think there is another player that deserves to be considered? Who sticks out as most townie-sounding to you?

[RedCoyote]

EBWOP: As for the other two players, Huntress' worse offense in my eyes is tunnelvision, and Rishi'

s

biggest offense is likely jumping on my bandwagon with little to no independent reasons for doing so.

[RedCoyote]

So, is RC-scum bussing scum-partner Pops, maybe to give him townie points if RC is lynched or to shift the wagon off himself, or is he pretending to bus an innocent Pops? I think the former is more likely but both are possibilities. (Yes, I know there are two other possibilities but I think they are even less likely.) The way Pops explains it here seems a bit odd but I need to do a meta on him to be sure.

Am I also tying myself to Rhinox by calling him scum? Am I also tying myself to bionic/Spy by calling them both town?

---

Again, [Rhinox's] "WIFOM" business really doesn't bother me because no matter where the wine IS, I dont see a scum benefit for it.

If I am lynched, what will happen to Rhinox when I flip town?

Frankly I'm more partial to OGML's original idea that Rhinox was attempting to lead a wagon indirectly. On the one hand, saying that I am innocent and the wrong lynch, but on the other throwing every damaging accusation he could at me (e.g. stating the obvious, aiding mafia through SK-talk, not answering his questions, being overly defensive, partnering up to pops, etc). Of course, where I differ with OGML is his further prediction that we are two separate scum parties.

---

The bolded selection makes it sound like he wants to believe that RC can see how he erred and correct himself. This feels like he might be willing to reconsider RC or to some extent he trusts that RC is misguided town because he is trying to make RC acknowledge how he looks bad.

Do you feel this way as well, Jahudo? Obviously not in regards to your vote, but moreso to your suspicions of me in general?

I'm not going to recant anything I've said mostly because I think I provoked the necessary responses out of any discussions I've had, whether Rishi (or anyone) acknowledges that or not. My scumhunting is completely detached from any theories I may or may not have about any roles in this game.

[RedCoyote]

why would a scum give up instead of fighting until the end? This makes no sense at all.

Arguments so based in emotion are used to cloud the rational judgment of another person.

Saying things like Rhinox has said lead me to believe he's trying to arouse sympathy for his plight, rather than actually attempting to change his ways.

So you don't 100% believe my explanation. Fair enough... I haven't really given you or anyone a reason to trust anything I've said.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, this statement just takes the cake for me.

"Ok bionic, you don't believe me... it's not like I'm exactly trustworthy anyways I guess ;_;"

What is the intention of this statement if not to manipulate someone emotionally?

Are you going to argue, Moriarty, that Rhinox really doesn't consider himself evocative of trustworthiness? No, I don't believe Rhinox actually thinks he doesn't give players reasons not to trust him, I contend that he's just saying that in order to twist bionic or whoever else into

feeling bad

for his situation of being distrustful.

For instance, it was you who revisited the SK discussion, even after it was almost about to be abandoned.

But my point is... unless there are sk kills, there is no reason to suspect an sk, nor hunt for one. If there are extra kills tomorrow, we'll know.

I think it's the more risky approach to dismiss the probability of an SK in the game, but I understand your argument.

I basically said I personally think Rhinox's position is more risky for the town, but I understood it. I was content to leave it at that.

Rhinox asked me to continue to discuss it, which I did. Unfortunately because of schedule difficulties, I usually post at a different time than most players, so, as some of you have probably noticed, I tend to average about a post a day in the wee hours of the morning. Why this is important is because I think it puts me at a disadvantage having people think that I am rehashing old discussions, when in reality I usually look at the thread with an entire page of activity that I haven't seen before.

However, I am fairly distressed with SpyreX's attempt to derail the wagons on Rhinox and RC this late in the date.

Do you think Spy will move his vote before the deadline, should it come to that? Will you?

I find OGML's scumspiracy slightly out-of-place on day 1. It seems a bit odd, and using past games as "evidence" for such a conspiracy is weird. I'd honestly wait for some flips before suggesting such an idea

I agree with this.

---

@whoever suggested RC has posted too much content to be scum: noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. RC posts LOTS OF CONTENT when he's scum. Lots of content. This is a craptell.

Since pops doesn't respond to my questions any longer, can someone else read this and ask pops

what the heck

he is talking about?

If your vote on me is primarily based on my meta (read: an excuse to vote me), and you are saying that I will post "LOST OF CONTENT" if I am scum, then you've just contradicted yourself.

Or do you contend that I have posted "LOTS OF CONTENT"?

---

Turns out she just uses AtE excessively regardless of alignment.

The 64,000 dollar question is, does Rhinox use an excessive amount of emotional appeals regardless of alignment?

A large portion of his posts were made in defense of his initial actions. Once called out that his posting was scummy, scum really would be forced to either commit to it 100% or backtrack out of it.

Whether you are willing to believe it or not, the discussion I had with Rhinox, and to a lesser extent Huntress, Jahudo, and Rishi, aided me in feeling these players out.

---

They're only damaging if they're true. Since those are pretty much the reasons you are being wagoned, that means that either there is good merit in those accusations, or scum are taking those accusations and running with them just to get you lynched.

And which side are you on?

Let me rephrase your statement so that you can better understand the corner you painted yourself in. Either you acknowledge to helping scum bandwagon me, or your "merited accusations" against me are still not good enough for your own vote against me.

OGML isn't the most townie player here, but so far as I can tell your case against him is based largely on his overzealous predictions.

Why is OGML a better lynch than me?

Even if you think I'm scum pushing your wagon from the sideline

...

that would still mean there would have to be scum on your wagon if you end up being lynched

I do indeed think there are; I think pops sticks out like a sore thumb.

Since I know I'm town, and I'm not voting for you, that would pretty much prove to me that at least 1 scum would have to be on your wagon to get you lynched today if you're town.

Then why are you voting OGML?

---

If scumRhinox gets backed into a corner over his use of AtE, his best course of action is to continue using AtE while shouting SCUM WOULD BE TOO CALCULATING TO USE ATE. If he continues getting attacked, he continues doing it, because he is now committed to this strategy. And it is nothing like your example with crywolf - AtE is not part of Rhinox's meta.

This.

---

Why are we assuming four scum in the game?

Keep your vote where it is Rishi, because I agree with Rhinox on this point and that was primarily what I was arguing throughout the first half of today.

---

Rhinox has never been lynched in a game nor been under significant pressure, therefore he does not have ANY meta on how he responds to pressure. AtE is one of those things I have trouble with. It always feels scummy, but I think it is less often telling of a persons alignment than it is just a reflection of the person.

Why does pops and Rhinox's meta evoke a general town read and my meta not have a factor? Do you agree with pops when he says that I am acting like scumCoyote?

Further, are you making the argument that when you don't consider there to be "ANY meta" that we should assume that emotional appeals are necessarily null?

[RedCoyote]

If he were scum, wouldn't it be simpler to change his playstyle, concede a few points, and try to blend in, rather than go on a massive AtEfest and raise suspicion on yourself even further?

Perhaps. I contend that he continued using emotional appeals to try and get the town to accept the frame of Rhinox just acting that way. bionic's read of Rhinox is exactly, in my mind, what Rhinox wants the rest of us to think: that Rhinox has a style of using emotion and we should just discount it altogether.

OGML in post 313 really explains Rhinox well too I think.

This was never in question, what does that have to do with anything?

You said you were distressed that Spy might be trying to derail the wagons on pops and I, I was asking if you thought, as the deadline gets even closer, Spy would switch his vote or not. I also asked if you would.

I'm intending to see how deeply motivated you are at advancing popsscum. Do you think pops is a plausible lynch today?

[RedCoyote]

2. I have not said definitively anywhere that I have a town read on Rhinox based on meta. Please identify where I have.

1)

My unvote at that time was to emphasize to RC how underwhelming I felt his case was. It was paired with a reduced suspicion level of Rhinox.

2)

If someone claims to play exactly the same as town and scum, then they are unwittingly saying you can never trust them. All the talk about "why would I do X as scum?" WIFOMY stuff becomes negated. On one hand [Rhinox] says there is no reason for him to act a certain way and be so openly honest about acting like a VI if he is scum. Then he goes on to later say he plays the same for both alignments. That then leads to the possibility he could intentionally be making the play he would make as town to keep his meta identical.

3)

Aparently nothing I can say to stop it, since my defenses are overrated ::eyeroll::

That is a little extreme, but I think you know that.

4)

Now, I currently don't have Rhinox in the top of my suspects, so I will address his wagon.

...

I have many of the same 'tells' listed for Rhinox as others have expressed, but they are not conclusive enough for me.

No, you've never specifically said you have a town meta read on Rhinox, but the way you have been posting about him leads me to believe that you feel very safe about his status as a townie. Moreover, because you said at some earlier point in time that meta reads were an important determining factor to your scumhunting approach, that necessarily leads me to believe that you've found nothing to indicate Rhinox's status as scum based on his meta, ergo you get a townie read off of him.

1) Your reduction of Rhinox suspicions, this is self-explanatory.
2) Rhinox's VI comment led you to believe he could intentionally be trying to keep up with his meta town read, but you weren't sure one way or the other.
3) With special emphasis on

I think you know that

. I realize from the context that you two have just finished a game together, and I understand that, but that also means that you've gotten to opportunity to see Rhinox as whatever his role was in said game, which is now part of his meta. The fact that you assumed his appeal there was already recognized suggests that you think this is comparable to his town meta.
4) Reinforces the #3 quote, that you think these appeals are not conclusive

specifically

in Rhinox's case.

---

Usually, if I'm asking questions to someone, it means I'm suspicious. In any case, even if I didn't articulate my suspicion since my first post on RC, it was still there.

Then you don't ask questions of those who you deem town? Why not?

Good job explaining why you wrote four instead of three in a few different ways. Nice job appending the line "which I always do in a mini, FYI" to your original quote. The fact that you felt the need to explain it so many ways makes me feel as though you're getting defensive about something.

Another argument I've been swishing around in this noggin of mine is how come Rhinox is on such pins and needles over being lynched as a vanilla townie today. On the one hand, his determination gives me some doubt about my vote, but on the other I really starting to worry if he's not taking serious the possibility that he could be lynched today. What I mean to say is, I'd really like to see him giving this town his own interpretation of the game outside of defending himself, should he be lynched and come up as town. For him not to bother making a few predictions, at least in addition to his defense, is a tell to me. I don't think what he's said about OGML is good enough, and I think there are some players he has neglected to really address.

Other than that one post that I voted for RC, you still haven't given any reasons for thinking I'm scum.

Not to speak for Spy, but he's also brought up your inactivity.

---

@RC- where have i not answered you're questions? I'm sure it hasn't happened extensively, you can repeat them like anyone else would instead of whining about me not answering your questions after just one or two instances.

Actually, I'm going to retract this. Upon rereading, I spoke a little too soon. The reason I was thrown off a little is because you never responded to my question in post 281, but I'm taking it back because I thought I had asked you twice specifically, but I had asked Huntress the second time, not you.

Although I would like an answer to it:

I've never seen something like this before. Yes it makes me nervous, and if he's scum it's a pretty good tactic because i'm at that medium level of suspicion that the tie would get me D2 lynched pretty easily based on connection.

Do you mean to say that "tying you up" means that I, as scum, am trying with my last few posts to sever connections with pops by throwing suspicions toward him?

Can someone enlighten me what "tying up" means? I'm under the impression it means like buddying up to someone.

And yes, you did answer my other question with this (348) post.

But I do appreciate your compliments of me, even if you use them against me.

---

Let me go at this from a different direction... would a town player be manipulative, or try to "cloud the rational judgment of another person."?

Well, if you want to get technical, every player in the game, regardless of their role, has to be manipulative to the degree that they have to "manipulate" scum to showing tells.

The second question, no, I don't see a reason for a townie player to try to cloud rational thought and judgment.

Seriously though, is this not an appeal to emotion? is this not meant to manipulate us into feeling sorry for you for being on a different posting schedule? Is this not meant to make us give you a little extra room since you are so inherantly at a disagvantage because of where you live?

If you want to consider it that way, but I don't mean for it to be.

I mean, unless you want to argue that it is advantageous to be able to post once a day around 1-4 AM CST?

I meant more to explain why it was people may consider me "pushing arguments that have already been discussed".

If someone wants to take a hardline and say that isn't a good enough reason, then that's tough. I think, in general, people will see that this is regular across any game I'm particpating in though.

Personally, I would love to see you lynched - but I'm not sure it would be for appropriate reasons (read: I'm not sure I would be voting to lynch scum).

Either I'm misreading this completely, or this is just a bad approach to the game.

You would love to see me lynched, yet you don't think I'm scum, yet you can't analyze me objectively, yet you think there is merit in the case against me...

It's making my head spin Rhinox. It's apparent that you think I'm concoting these points to make you look bad, when in reality

I just don't understand all the things you say

. This all seems contradictory to me, and it's a struggle to keep up with what your actual intentions in this game are.

Why do you think I should consider you over OGML? Did you just admit to being scum? Did you just admit that you think you are scummier than OGML?

1) Huh? I

don't

think that; this is a loaded question. I asked you why OGML is a better lynch than me because you were voting him. Additionally, you've stated that you don't think I'm scum. Because of these two positions, I asked you why you thought OGML was better to be lynched today than I was.
2) No.
3) No.

Then why are your posts 90% focused on me, and very little focused on pops? I know... because you don't think you can convince the town to vote for pops, and you think that getting me lynched is the only way to prevent your own lynch...

Because, frankly, I think you are getting away with a lot.

90% is obviously an exaggeration, but I'm more confident in my suspicions of you than I am in pops.

I'm not going to deny I'd rather lynch you that myself, do you expect me to? This doesn't change the fact that I think you are scummy and that I was the

first, non-random vote

on you. Your misrepresentation of my motivations just reinforces my vote.

Sure, I've said I'm not sure your scum, but that doesn't mean I think you're town either.

What does this mean? How is this not doublespeak?

How can I be neither town nor scum?

I think another viable option is that I'm just having a bad game. The problem with claiming to be having a bad game is that if I were scum, I would always make that claim. I would never admit to being scum. The counter argument I would propose is, what other argument, if not that I'm just having a bad game, would I say as town?

So.

...which I'm pretty sure thats not what I was doing, then you're basically saying that I can OGMUS my way into getting the town to lynch whoever I want, just because someone voted for me? Do you really think that the town would go for that?

much.

If I were pushing the RC wagon from the sideline, why would I just speak up against it knowing that I'm looking like the sure lynch if RC isn't lynched?

WIFOM!

---

This question was not directed at me, but yes.

Some people will be more inclined to give in, some will keep fighting until the noose is around their neck. I don't think it has anything to do with their alignment, generally.

This likely stems from my real-time mafia experience. username, almost like clockwork, you get a bandwagon on scum, and so many of them are so quick to say "wow, town fail...".

I've seen it time and again, either they get upset or they get hostile, it's all emotionally derived. An attempt to get their attackers to feel bad about what they are doing with hopes that they will tug at enough heartstrings to get them to move.

Townies usually don't, or they try not to at least. Most times they try to explain why it is their attackers are wrong and explain who it is the lynch should be.

I'm not going to say personality isn't a significant factor, I'm certainly not going to say this is foolproof, but it's worked for me countless times, and I think I'm getting better and better at telling the differences between townie appeals and scum appeals. Rhinox very much falls into the latter category for me.

I understand it, but I think you're going way overboard with it. I mean, if I'm convinced that someone is town in a game, and they ultimately turn out to be scum, then I'm going to be wary of them in future, I understand that part. But saying that RedCoyote fooled you once as scum, therefore you cannot possibly read him, ever; that's really overstating the significance of that one game.

I agree with this, this is my main problem with pops' (former) vote of me. I just do not like the whole "I cannot possibly hope to read RC, therefore he should be lynched" attitude. It is absolutely not the way townies should cast their vote, even if it is a bit flattering.

---

RC's odd interaction with me is another tell i have that i keep forgetting to mention.

I don't think it's my odd interaction with you, I think it's your completely crappy reasons for voting me.

Listen, pops, I know how we can resolve this. Just assume I'm town all of the time, that way you'll win at least half the time. XD

---

*head scratching* Didn't I try that?

Yeah, you did.

But you forgot to mention you completely tied your apology to one big WIFOM.

You basically said, "I'm sorry for doing this... but this means I'm town doesn't it ".

Of course you leave those parts of the quote out because you know you're guilty of it.

So, you now think RC is town and ...

Did CFR say that?

(Taking a page from Huntress with this one. )

---

Happy Birthday Jahudo

[RedCoyote]

But if i couldn't read you at all, i would certainly lynch you immediately. That's how people deal with K7, that's how you deal with any unreadable player.

I think that's a poor way to go through games if you want me to be perfectly honest.

If [Rhinox's] town [RC's] next [to be lynched]. If he's scum, I'd be surprised at your accuracy enough to at least wait. I actually put Rhinox at even money right now (back at starting point 0), from BC's testimonies and his consistency with the WIFOM logic and AtE. He's consistent to himself.

Is there anyway I can force everyone in this game to read this statement?

Two major things I want to point out in this statement:

1) pops is lining up his lynches, and blantantly so. He doesn't seem to notice that we've been having a discussion for the past couple of pages that it's a fallacy to put me and Rhinox in a "good guy-bad guy" scenario.

2) pops also gets the same impression I got in post 369 that bionic's defense of Rhinox is very meta-based. When I brought this up, bionic confirmed his vote on me.

---

You wrote absolutely nothing that indicates I have a town read on Rhinox

based off of meta

.

Newbie 696 is officially part of Rhinox's meta now, whether you acknowledge that or not.

I mean, for goodness sakes, you brought it up. You said you were using it to analyze Rhinox. Now you're trying to play gotcha games with me because, "lololol never said specifically I got a town read meta "?

I'm calling entrapment here. I've made an absolutely valid syllogism.

bionic uses meta to analyze players, bionic thinks Rhinox is town, therefore, bionic's meta-read of Rhinox is town.

I'm calling entrapment because I think you were setting me up to bring this point up just to try and make your vote look better.

Now you can't argue that you didn't refer to Rhinox's meta because, one, you've made it clear that meta is part of your hunting strategy, and two, you've referenced Rhinox's meta multiple times in this game.

If you argue that Rhinox's meta-read gives off a scummy vibe, then your vote is contradictory to your meta-read.

When the initial statement in the question was pointed out as incorrect, you decided it was best to spin into a whole side thing about how I am reading Rhinox and because I use meta as a factor, I must have a town meta-read on him.

No, it is correct. I didn't spin anything, I used specific statements that you made about Rhinox and your interaction with him. You even brought up, and linked, the game y'all were recently playing together.

Moreover, I'd like you to reread pops' statement that I quoted above and tell me what you think of it.

---

are you telling me I should roll over and play dead because I'm just a townie and I shouldn't care if I get lynched D1, or are you accusing me of doing nothing but defend myself? I think I've been doing a good job of doing things besides defend myself.

No, but you claiming before you had to prematurely puts this town in a more awkward position than it needs to be. username is correct when he says it's difficult to argue against lynching someone who claimed vanilla townie.

And when I say take a more offensive stance, I certainly don't mean "roll over and play dead", I'm not sure how you could equate the two as they are essentially opposites of one another.

Further, although I do agree with your sentiments against OGML, until he begins to post some more it might help to consider other scum possibilities.

So, AtE is only an attempt to cloud rational thought and judgement if I'm scum. So it is circular reasoning.

No, because I didn't think you were scum before you starting appealing left and right.

I'm arguing that it doesn't put you at the disadvantage you're trying to make it seem.

But you're not the one who brought this up.

Anyways, why did you ask me if you already knew the answer? I said I'm njot sure you're scum and don't trust myself to analyze you objectively. I gave reasons for suspecting OGML. Whats the point of even asking me?

To gauge your reaction as to why you don't want me lynched today.

I get the feeling that if you weren't being wagoned and close to a lynch, that you would much rather be voting pops.

How do you come to terms with this feeling knowing that I was the first, non-random vote on you as opposed to joining a bandwagon?

Keep in mind that if I were playing by your philosophy, you'd have already been lynched. You were at L-1. I could have hammered you, or at least pressured you into claiming and then hammered you, instead of speaking out against your wagon.

And? Should I unvote you because you "granted me mercy"? Any town worth its salt would've had the noose ready for you had you tried to sneak in a lynch before I could claim.

not scum != town. It just means, I haven't come to a conclusion that I think you're more likely 1 side more than the other. In other words, I have a neutral read on you right now.

I disagree with this, but I

don't want to press the point

because it will get to be another theoretical discussion.

---

In regards to the claiming discussion, at the risk of sounding opportunist, I agree with username in post 382. I am willing for my position to be treated as null because of how this situation would put a bias on my decision, but I want to make it clear that I would certainly use it as a strike against Rhinox even if I wasn't in this position.

Now how username can preach this while sitting firmly on my wagon is a completely different discussion altogether.

[RedCoyote]

[Premise 1: If I get a town-meta read on someone, I think they are town
Premise 2: I think player A is town (also, FYI, just because I am not convinced Rhinox is scum yet, doesn't mean I think he is definitely town)
FALSE CONCLUSION: I have a town-meta read on player A

The term "definitely" is thrown haphazardly into this statement. Townieness, if you will, naturally comes in the form of degrees or even a crude, often changing ranking, therefore I certainly wouldn't say anyone, the least of which you, would call someone definitely townie on Day 1.

Taking that word out, you're handing me the same line Rhinox did, that you consider players neutral. I said it to Rhinox and I'll say it to you, I don't want to get into another big theory discussion, but suffice to say that I do not take the position that players can hang out in a neutral, that is to say not townie but not scummy, zone (notwithstanding the beginning of the game). I believe every player should be able to go back, research another player's discussion and positions, and come to a conclusion of at least in the "slightly leaning" one way or the other. Specifically in situations like these, it seems to give people an out, a reason not to have to give an opinion on another player at whatever juncture.

Premise 1: If I put on a jacket, I am going outside
Premise 2: I am going outside
FALSE CONCLUSION: I have a jacket on.

The reason being that I can go outside without a jacket on.

This example I want to discuss further. I think it is a good analogy, but you are completely missing the point. Yes, you can come up to a conclusion that Rhinox is townie without using his meta,

but

not after you've already taken the position that meta-reading is a primary tool for your hunting

AND

that you've discussed, referenced, and observed Rhinox's meta already for this game (unless you are going to contend that he is acting scummy according to your meta-read, which is a completely different argument).

In other words, I know you have a jacket on because you discussed at length with other people (Spyrex) how important wearing a jacket is, and you've talked

about

your jacket and presented your jacket to other people outside.

You are wearing the hell out of that jacket, whether or not you've specifically

said

you are or not.

And I love how you completely dodged the direct question I asked you about pops saying you "testified" to Rhinox's playstyle consistencies (e.g. his meta).

---

i tried to explain ad-hom to him once. he didn't get it

This isn't ad-hom.

[RedCoyote]

It looks like you are misinterpreting how bionic has used meta in his opinion of how people are playing specifically for this game and how a tell can hold up for a current game without having to be reinforced with past game meta.

I'm not exactly sure why bionic thinks I'm misinterpreting him. He went as far as to say it's irresponsible not to consider meta-reading players that one suspects, he, at one point, suspected Rhinox, he brought up a past game Rhinox played in to make points about Rhinox's status, and he has since then said his suspicion level of Rhinox has been reduced.

To say it's a fallacy for me to therefore logically assume that bionic had a townie meta-read on Rhinox as part of this reduction in suspicion is equivalent of a gotcha tactic.

I mean, yes, I affirm that he never brought up that he had a definitive conclusion based on a Rhinox-meta; bionic is right and I don't deny that. It is an assumption I think I rightfully made based on his passionate discussion of meta-reading as a hunting technique, his references to Rhinox's meta, and his subsequent reduction of suspicions in Rhinox. I would not have assumed bionic's meta-read on Rhinox otherwise. If he had told me was that I was mistaken and he had not got any conclusions based on Rhinox's meta, then I would've conceded. Instead, he challenged me to show where he definitively brought it up, and I responded that he did not but I showed him as clear as I could why I made the assumption that he had.

[RedCoyote]

The main cases i see against me are: posting fluff and reading RC using meta.

Just being oblivious to this game in general is, I think, a very fair attack against you pops.

If i wanted to keep from revealing scumtells by active lurking, would i post fluff and game posts at the same time? No, i would post only fluff. No that's not WIFOM.

Why isn't it WIFOM?

2)Does that have to do with my alignment?

If Jahudo doesn't need anymore than this, I do.

Does it give you any different opinion of bionic? Do you see his criticism of me and not you as hypocritical, given that we've essentially came to the same positions on bionic's defense of Rhinox?

Defending town aligned players is equally important as attacking scum players. Not equally. Close enough though.

I agree with this. pops, which town aligned players are you concerned about defending today?

yes, it was a concept for protecting PRs. And at the time, i thought he was even money, not town.

Then it's your opinion that he is scum and I am town at the moment? I understand your first vote of Rhinox, I understand your switch to me, and I understand your switch back to Rhinox, but I don't understand your switch back to me this latest time. Did I do something recently that struck you the wrong way, or are you just resigned to the fact that I am a better lynch than Rhinox? I'd like this answer as soon as possible.

[RedCoyote]

I am making a formal request for RC to claim in his next post. Any claim made close to deadline won't leave any time for reasonable consideration if he claims anything other than vanilla.

I'm giving myself one more post. I need to hear from Rishi and Huntress again. As I believe I know where username, Rhinox, and pops' votes are going.

---

@All: I still would like a Rhinox lynch. If we cannot get that I could join the pops wagon because of WIFOM, piggyback voting, and fluff posting.

Maybe we can get a tally of people who could join a smaller wagon because they don't like a larger one?

This. At the risk of sounding opportunist, I think a pops lynch is comparable to a Rhinox lynch, although I'd prefer the latter.

Here are three solid reasons why pops is a better lynch than me:

1)

Flighty material that interferes negatively with the game

It would be if i was oblivious to this game, but i'm not.

We've got one other major suspect. One that, at this point, I'm happy to vote. Come on down...

Pops, why do you keep hitting me??

Vote: Popsofctown

pops 128 - Addresses Huntress
pops 130 - Vote Rhinox
pops 132 - Riddling and Korts
pops 139 - Riddles
pops 141 - Serious about Riddles
pops 142 - Hurry up with the Riddles
pops 143 - Please! Riddles!
pops 145 - Mod you're such a card!
pops 148 - Korts again... also Rhinox

On the flipside, we've got pops who has managed not to mention me by name (yet referenced my call on fluff AND my note of his poking on Korts) - whereas earlier interactions with people holding supsicion was followed up directly.

When did spyrex ask me a question, and what question was it? Maybe i thought it was rhetorical.

Not that fluff in and of itself is often that bad to me, the problem is when a vote against you doesn't get your attention... when you claim you thought the post was rhetorical. This is why I originally suspected pops, this behavior seems careless. Either he's not paying enough attention to the game or he delibrately ignored Spy. Not comfortable with either position.

2)

Questionable voting patterns/reasons

I've decided to read [RC] mostly on meta, because when i read him just like everyone else he consistently slips by, so i might be using poorly explained reasons some this game, i'll try to be glass man like Korts as much as possible though.

The thing about me pre-emptively saying my reasoning against RC might be poorly explained is more or less fair. I probably shouldn't say something like that, but instead just explain on each instance the meta-significance of why i might find him suspicious, try to explain how it rel.ates to my other game with him, etc.

The first bold is me saying [RC] didn't answer his questions as curtly as he could. It's suspicious, especially in terms of his meta.

To his credit, he says that he may have been a little too forthcoming with these statements, but that doesn't stop him from continuing to use them!

Sometimes [RC]'s longwinded, and sometimes he can't get to the point faster (usually when he's not lying about something it would seem to me. I haven't played with him as town, but sometimes he's lying about something and sometimes he's addressing points that aren't lies. In retrospect those are less longwinded). The quote sort of represents the game as a whole really.

...

There you go. If it's a legit tell, now he's acutely aware of it and it won't happen again. The guy's nearly unreadable and you take what little scraps i can put together away from me. It makes me very very emo kid.

I have another meta-rooted tell for RC, which may or may not be valid.

i had an argument with RC about alignment-based-ad hom.

But basically, Rhinox is adhomming himself.

I think RC is trying to tie himself to me actually. Defending me, but not addressing any accusations i make against him

How is one supposed to argue a meta-read on themselves in a way that isn't completely drenched in WIFOM? How am I defending you and suspecting you at the same time?

Rhinox, you seem less scummy to me right now. But i can't clearly decide if i feel that way because of your massive AtE or because of actual evidence you've shown. So now i have to lynch you. Do you see how that lurks?

You can't decide if I'm scum because you can't read me, so you vote me. You can't decide if Rhinox is scum because of his appeals, so you end up voting him.
Both positions come off as weak to me.

In the past few pages, i've been getting less gut feeling about Rhinox being scum. Is it because she's actually town, or because she appeals to emotion every other post? I can't say which. So i would think i need to err on the side of uncharitable judgments, since he's the one who's using appeal-to-emotion for his defense.

If i don't read RC based on some kind of meta, i won't be able to read him at all.

Bandwagon voting? I really think RC is scum. This looks like RC scum. I don't know how i can explain this better.

no one seems to understand my special treatment of RC. He's like K7, in a different way, evidence shows that i can't read him. In this case it's not because he won't post, it's because he's too good at this game. Since i became 99% sure of the incorrect result one time when he was scum, it's safe to say that my general scumhunting analysis of him is useless. The only hope i could have is a meta analysis.

Just constantly harping back to his notion that he cannot read me, so this excuses his vote on me if it's wrong.

But if i couldn't read [RC] at all, i would certainly lynch [RC] immediately.

RC has failed the only barometer i have for him.

Which is, of course, why you shouldn't bother to consider the fact that I'm town, that your meta-read is incomplete and full of holes, and that the little interaction between players besides me and Rhinox has usually been about one of us.

i don't think Rhinox is that scummy though. Not as of now.

Of course, that could very well be the AtE clouding my judgment.

And how is this different from the position you had in post 276? You still can't read Rhinox.

As for the meta-treatment of RC, also still don't get how that's a scumtell. Ok, actually i sort of get this one. I can see how it could appear that i'm cloaking my reasons for voting another player. But i didn't do that. I explained to you guys 15 times why i'm voting RC and why it's a scumtell in general.

It was a bad reason then and it's a bad reason now.

What all this boils down to: pops can't read me or Rhinox, and pops thinks that if I was scum I would talk about an SK. Period.

3)

Bandwagoning, bandwagoning, bandwagoning.

In other news, i'm about as sure about Rhinox being scum right now as i am about RC.

either way, that tell is good, so

unvote, vote RedCoyote

Switches votes after bionic moves from Rhinox to me with the statement that he wants to see either of us lynched.

So, since CFriot's inquistions are all the input i got about night strat,

unvote, vote: Rhinox

username and CF Riot say that it's tough to defend Rhinox after his premature claim, and pops follows suit.

I'm voting Rhinox right now though, because of the vanilla claim. If he's town you're next. If he's scum, I'd be surprised at your accuracy enough to at least wait.

If Rhinox is town then I am scum.

As i said earlier, the lynching of Rhinox is a theory point that i was open to discussion with. BC has a convincing explanation of how i still need to feel Rhinox is somewhat scummy to justify his lynch. Right now, i'm not sure he is.

unvote, vote RC

bionic does indeed help you come to decisions. You loved his case against me enough to vote me the first time (and, oh yeah, the metatells) and you love his explanation enough to vote me again.

---

The point i've been trying to make is that if i wanted to substitute fluff for content in an attempt to conceal scumtells, then i wouldn't have posted content. That's not even a substitution.

So then you think that it's less scummy to post all fluff than it is to mix fluff and content? Why?

As far as oblivious to the game goes, how about Spyrex refusing to comment on either main wagon nor choose a favorite and vote on it? *points* Come on guys, at least pretend to be looking at everyone equally.

Why is Spy more guilty of this than Moriarty? I mean, why do you wait until post 441 to bring his name up? I think both players have made their intentions clear as to who they would prefer between me and Rhinox.

So of course, the vote went back to RC, who was scummy in the first place and in general is getting worse and worse.

You mean I'm getting worse than your one and a half (I'd be hard pressed to even call it a half since I made all of 2 posts? 3 posts?) game meta-read in which both games I was scum? Worse than your claim that you have to lynch me because you can't read me?

I didn't think you could get much worse than that. This is complete filler.

---

One more thing, to straighten this bionic thing once and for all. If bionic thinks he has me pegged another way, so be it. Here is my interpretation of events as simple as I can make it:

bionic v RC

RC 340: Bionic, what is your meta-read on me if you have a town meta-read on pops/Rhinox
bionic 344: Show me where I've specifically said I have a town meta-read on Rhinox
RC 369: You did not specifically state it, but here is how I arrived to the conclusion
bionic 371: lol no confim vote
RC 385: Huh? Why isn't it valid? I think you're trying to trap me
bionic 386: because you have some horrible logic
RC 390: Let's discuss this. pops has the same point of view as I do. Let me explain to you how I came to my conclusion
bionic 392: no! my meta-read on rhinox is inconclusive!!!
RC 396: lol ok why didn't you just say that?

If it isn't entrapment, why didn't bionic merely state that I was incorrect and that he didn't arrive to any conclusions on Rhinox in post 344 or even 371?

---

So then all that's left to do is

vote: popsofctown

.

Mainly I want to hear from Rishi and Huntress. I'm pretty sure I know which way everyone else is going to go today barring anything major. I'll check back with the thread and claim tomorrow if nothing has changed.

[RedCoyote]

I'll start, i'm only willing to see RC lynched.

You find no one else scummy besides me?

Yeah, sure, my two line riddles totally threw off everyone's focus on the game, making it functionally unreadable.

9 posts != two lines of riddles. We're here to have fun, but we're also here to play this game. When someone votes you, with the significant reason for doing so the fluffy nature of your posts, and you ignore him in favor of more fluff, how do you think that makes you look?

You're breaking up my argument in a very strange way. You stated that you've not been oblivious to this game, I quoted what I find to be your worst offense of this game, the height of obliviousness, Spy putting serious weight on your growing wagon while you completely ignore it.

You take an objective look at this thread and my content matches Rishi, Huntress, and anyone.

It's not about the raw number of posts that contain content pops, it's about how you went about favoring fluff over content at times that really called for content.

172 isn't a response to 149, the way you quoted makes me think you're repainting history.

I misunderstood your post 172 then. Whatever the case, why would you consider a vote rhetorical? Do you mean to say you thought Spy was just trying to pressure you into posting more content at the time?

I'm beginning to think i know what i'm doing.

Beginning to? You've been saying that I should be the lynch because you can't read me basically since the game started.

I say you're tying yourself to me, and then from that point on you start screaming that i'm suspicious and start acting like you've been saying that the whole thread.

No sir, this is wholly inaccurate. The first time you bring up the "tying" argument is in post 217. You should be aware of my suspicions since post 152, when I formally said as much.

It's suspicious to make oneself unreadable.

Not only do I completely disagree with this, I don't even agree that I've been "unreadable".

I don't want to excuse anything.

Then why do you continue to say things like,

"In the past few pages, i've been getting less gut feeling about Rhinox being scum. Is it because she's actually town, or because she appeals to emotion every other post? I can't say which."
"i won't be able to read [RC] at all."
"He's like K7, in a different way, evidence shows that i can't read him. In this case it's not because he won't post, it's because he's too good at this game."

What are we supposed to think about this? That it's okay if I flip town because you couldn't read me anyways?

Not being able to play with children other than Rhinox is not an excuse for playing rough with Rhinox and playing rough on the occasion we let you play with the other children. You know it'd be horrendous if they caught the mono, that's why we keep you two in.

I have no idea what this means or what it's refering to.

I can strawman too RC! RC thinks i'm scum because I think he's scum.

Huh? How could that be all you've gotten out of what I said? None of my reasons have anything to do with what you think of me, it's the reasons you claim that have gotten you there that trouble me.

Bandwagonning on theory beliefs is not bandwagoning. It's learning. I tried to figure out on what our policy should be on an early vanilla claim, and my vote moved around until i understood.

BC is smart. He's good people.
I see absolutely nothing wrong with gleaning theory info from BC.

Why are CF Riot, RC, and username's opinions inherently less valuable than those of bionic or Rhinox? If anything me and Rhinox should cancel out, seeing as how we have a bias in the argument, but that still leaves it at a two-to-one.

I mean, it appears to me you were just looking for a reason not to have to vote Rhinox.

OMGUS doesn't help. Cos' i really think you liked your own case on Rhinox better, but i think i've stepped on your tail.

I do, I think Rhinox is scummy as ever.

But that doesn't mean I think you're townie.

And it's laughable that you would label my vote as OMGUS at this stage of the game given the circumstances.

I'd say we ought to have Rishi Htress feedback before RC's claim, if we can manage. I mean, if i am going to be the lynch for the day after all, there's no sense in RC having a claim out.

Based on post 325 by OGML, and with Jahudo and CF Riot's recent commentary, I do believe you can be lynched today pops.

It's unfortunate that Rishi, Huntress, and username have really put this game on the back burner, because it forces me into a very awkward position.

It's basically forcing me to put all my chips on Rhinox, a person who I do think is scum. Rhinox has claimed multiple times that he doesn't see me as scum, so I think he'd be hardpressed to vote me at L-2 if pops is going to be at L-1 on Thursday (assuming CF Riot, Jahudo, and OGML's opinions have not changed, and given that Rishi, Huntress, and username are all wild cards).

That being said, I'm putting the farm on the pops wagon. As you can tell, I'm foregoing the claim I promised I would make, mainly because, and I agree with pops on this point, neither Huntress nor Rishi have made their positions clear like bionic, Jahudo, Spy, or CF Riot.

---

It is convenient that your 'entrapment' case where you simplified what we talked about dropped responses #1,3 & 4 to the initial question.

3 and 4 have nothing to do with Rhinox's meta, and 1 is hardly arguable. Did you expect me to argue that I considered meta to encompass your entire hunting technique? I know meta is only a portion of your reading, but I also know how much value you place on it (i.e. "irresponsible" not to use meta-reads).

---

I'm ambivalent about Rhinox at the moment. The only thing I'm reasonably sure about is that he is not partners with RC. My second choice for a vote would probably be SpyreX.

@ SpyreX: I think you overlooked the questions I raised at the beginning of post 402.

Why would you bother to post this and not reference pops at all? It seems like this post would've better served us 4 days ago.

FoS: Huntress

[RedCoyote]

If the vote situation doesn't change in the next 12 hours or so I think RC should claim so we have enough time to analyze and respond.

So it appears.

Well, as some of you have undoubtedly suspected, I am the

Townie Jailer

(My God, now it all makes sense). My, ahem, "breadcrumbing" may have began to spiral out of control somewhere around, oh, the third or fourth page? XD

The formal claim would've likely came earlier had it not been for a couple of specific, strange happenings.

1)

Rhinox's early claim, which I think this town took far too lightly. Granted, given that some of those who were voting me (but not all) were under the impression that I was scum, but even if I had claimed what the townies who were voting me might have suspected, a vanilla townie, it still puts the scum at a greater advantage to know that piece of information. It's mainly for this reason that I tried considerably hard to find ways not to have to claim.

1a)

username's awkward shift from this,

You ask people to claim at L-1 as a last resort to save themselves from a lynch. If they claim vanilla, then they give you no reason not to go ahead with the lynch, so they should be hammered immediately. You don't want to then go and wagon someone else to a claim, because that could lead to a power role being outed completely unnecessarily.

to this,

More specifically, vote for RedCoyote.

which gave me somewhat of a shock. Certainly if there is any silver lining to my claim for day one, this contradiction would likely be it.

1b)

pops' awkward shift from this,

My take on the premature claim is that we probably do need to lynch Rhinox. I think Rhinox has been scummy. The original misread and horribly crappy and desperate coverup is lynch reason enough, and the vanilla claim means we really ought to decide whether Rhinox is scum or not. Based on my own analysis of setup possibilities, a suspicious vanilla townie is useless in night strategy

to this,

As i said earlier, the lynching of Rhinox is a theory point that i was open to discussion with. BC has a convincing explanation of how i still need to feel Rhinox is somewhat scummy to justify his lynch. Right now, i'm not sure he is.

which just gave me more evidence to the fact that pops' voting patterns have been generally weak, baseless, and easily changed with the tides of the game. Post 348 can only arguably be interpreted as "feeling for a theory", it seems much more sure than he makes it seem in post 381.

1c)

Huntress, username, and Rishi both generally being more lurky than I would've hoped. This can be contrasted to OGML, who, although lurky as well, made his stance clear on both pops v RC and Rhinox v RC. I contend this cannot be said for the three aforementioned players.

2)

The schism in the Rhinox/pops wagons not contained in my wagon. Because I got the impression that both Spyrex and Moriarty would both, if pressed to the wall, vote Rhinox, and because if Jahudo, CF Riot, and OGML would, if pressed to the wall, vote pops, this left both wagons theoretically at L-1. Given that I was only certain that bionic and pops made it clear they only wanted to vote me, and knowing that Rhinox would very likely not vote himself, this still left (and still does frankly, I still am not sure how Rhinox feels about pops) a considerable amount of options to be considered as the actual lynch. This is only further compounded by 1a, leading me to believe that username may have been in favor of a policy lynch on Rhinox to keep a power role from being revealed.

---

"Here's a story about a bunch of guys that spilled salt and then made a big deal about it. On an unrelated note, vote:pops", paraphrase.

No, we disagree again. This comment is just complete misrepresentation pops.

Why does [pops'] post bother me so much in reading?

1.) The concern over a single vote placed, under the misnomer of "I'm just trying to start discussion."
2.) The callout on huntress raises a flag in the statement "I dunno if you're town or scum". Thats one of those obvious apparents to a town that a scum, in my opinion, uses to try and "blend".
3.) The snipe at Korts. Even if you disagree with Korts, what is the pro-town motive for poking and

creating fluff

?

Speaking of fluff, the next few posts are just that.

Fluff - based around the #3 above. Even in his contentish post: again he posts another jibe at the end (another nice little tidbit of cognitive dissonance... who has posted they hate the "nonsense" yet keeps doing it?)

This has tapered off some in the last couple posts, but

again the last two posts were more fluff

- and the last AGAIN is only directed towards the riddle itself.

So, yea, my vote can sit here for a good long while.

(emphasis added).

Again, pops, it's not so much whether you think this is a tell or not, because frankly I think that fluff, alone, is completely null.

What made it stick out with you pops, is not only do you not acknowledge these accusations, you make nine more posts, a majority of which is unarguable fluff, and Spy has to bring you up again, before you consider responding to it.

And that's a strawman, i've been saying you're scummy by meta

Although I don't take Spy's stance on meta, I do take the stance that you shouldn't judge a player by a one game meta in virtually every circumstance I can come up with.

a forced bizarre insert in another post was not enough justification for you to start carrying on like you've been against me all thread long.

How is it bizarre? I'm still not even convinced you know the reason why I suspected you, although I made it about a clear as I could in said post.

You were whining about how the thread is only about you and Rhinox. That doesn't acquit you of any suspicion.

Certainly not, but it seems to me, without taking the time to do a proper count, that a great majority of your posts have either been about one of us, or talking with another player about one of us.

I wanted to have my position known in case others felt the same.

username and CFRiot are both against policy lynching over vanilla claims. That's the way i understood it.

After re-reading CF Riot's post, I admit I was mistaken. I had forgot he told you that that was a bad position, so as far as he goes that's dropped.

But username is a completely different story,

You ask people to claim at L-1 as a last resort to save themselves from a lynch. If they claim vanilla, then they give you no reason not to go ahead with the lynch, so they should be hammered immediately. You don't want to then go and wagon someone else to a claim, because that could lead to a power role being outed completely unnecessarily.

because he said this.

If you flip town, and i doubt you will, i'm calling you town tightwad.

XD

Like I told you, I have much more fun as scum. Now

that's

a meta you can take to the bank!

---

First is the baseless claim that I and others have "put this game on the back burner".

Do you contend you've been as active in this game as you think is appropriate? Do you contend that Rishi and username have, in your opinion, as well?

What is not clear about saying that I'm "fine with my vote on RC"?

It has mostly to do with the suspicions I have that you are possibly delibrately fencesitting on the question of pops' alignment.

I was replying to CF Riot's question. Pops didn't come into it.

Did you not think I was interested in your opinion when I asked for you and Rishi to give a more concrete stance (e.g. bionic, Jahudo, CF Riot, Me, or even OGML)?

[RedCoyote]

unvote, vote: Rhinox

[RedCoyote]

Either way, my vote isn't changing. If I had a few days before deadline, I would have taken more time to consider countering vs. not countering

No one here made the decision to reveal your role except you, so any attempt to pass the buck that you may or may not have been insinuating strikes no chord with me, and shouldn't with anyone else, given the reasons why my claim was rightfully delayed.

There is a decent probability of a watcher or doctor for the town which could protect a jailer claim and let them do their work

Funny, when I talked about role probabilities, I was labelled as outguessing the mod. I'll have to see where these statements lead you, bionic.

---

I don't believe RC's claim.

Well pops, I won't expect you to regardless of what my claim was. You put way too much stock into that brilliant one-game meta of yours. XD

---

Where?

Lest you think I am starting some big player-Mod WIFOM, there is a perfectly good reason why we should, why every player should, assume there is an SK before we end this day, or any day, until proven otherwise:

night actions

.

There's no reason why we should be naive about the situation. I think it's very safe to say that it's probable there is an SK, and every townie should play like there is another scum out there.

I don't want to push this situation much further

, but suffice to say

I think some people

(certainly I)

would treat the game differently if there are 2 killing parties as opposed to 1.

(emphasis added).

[RedCoyote]

Fun game guys, thanks to the Mod and to all the players.