Open 135 - Polygamist Mafia, Incomplete/Mod Error before 775

[ortolan]

/conformed

[ortolan]

Hey guys, I think it is useful to hold off on the mass lover-claim.

I will post something more substantial tomorrow.

[ortolan]

kk, finally got around to a read.

Zwet-Ace connection noted, but not neccesarily scummy.

Based on their pre-game banter alone?

Lovers setups are very interesting, in that they take away the buddying-up and connections scumtells by a large amount. Scum will definately behave differently this game, distancing possible but bussing utterly surreal. Keeping an eye on wagons and the reasoning for votes should be a main priority throughout.

Good advice.

Don't like 48 by PIP and agree with Wall-E's response to it, possible PIP-as-scum being nervous about being on a townie bandwagon, even though he was nowhere near lynch.

Correct, but I detest random bandwagons and the RVS in general. I feel what I stated in my above post, that the bandwagon, that seems to be based on nothing in particular, will do little good besides Tenchi claiming a Lover (He could fakeclaim, of course, but we would have little evidence of such to begin with), which I don't believe would be particularly beneficial to the town. I fail to see any benefit that a random wagon gives us in this game, simply because we'll have no way of knowing if Polygamists are fakeclaiming lovers, or if we have legitimate lover claims. It may also put pressure on Techi, but at the moment he has absolutely nothing to defend against, so the pressure will be weak at best. I'd prefer to wait until I see something legitimately scummy to vote, and potentially for a bandwagon to form.

The whole point of the random voting stage is to get bandwagons going, so one can judge people's reactions to them. I have not yet seen a claim/lynch based

solely

on a random voting wagon. However your reaction itself was (mildly) scummy, which now gives us something to work with.

It was rather obviously part of a joke. I was random-voting, unaware that you had already voted him, and that Wall-E would follow my vote.

The third random vote in a 7-to-lynch scenario means absolutely nothing.

Wait... are you seriously asking that?

unvote, Vote zwet

Why did you interpret this comment as serious and scummy?

pie seems a little nervous...

Really? I don't see where that interpretation comes from, and I'm pretty good at reading the tone of my posts. I'm a tad confused, but not nervous.

She's right, you do come across as nervous. It's not so much the "tone" of your post but simply the content (freaking out over a meaningless 3 random votes in a 12-player game).

Why is Pie still alive?

Explain to me where I lied zwet, and we can discuss it. This accomplishes nothing.

Why is Pie still alive?

Wait... are you seriously asking that?

unvote, Vote zwet

Have you played with zwet before Archon?

No, but it was like... what?

Many people make half-serious comments like this, it's not only zwet.

I should have said it more clearly. They won't fakeclaim lovers persay, they'll claim lover pairs. So yeah, they'll claim lovers. However we won't be able to tell, through a random bandwagon, whether or not such a lover claim is legitimate, and it would therefore not be particularly useful to the town.

Again, the result of Tenchi's bandwagon has ironically not been a read/claim on him so much as a read on you.

Pie seems very twitchy. There's no need to flip out when someone gets to three random votes. It's seven to lynch. This was pretty funny:

Another agreement with the perception of PIP.

I'm bored.

Vote: Pie

Does this have serious intent behind it?

By the way, I'm pretty sure that we're going to massloverclaim before this day is up.

The hell we are. What would be the advantage for a mass claim, eh? Everyone has a viable claim partner (including the polygamists), so it would only tell the polygamists who their best kill would be.

Vote: mikek

I believe it's recommended you do lover-claim at some point- not sure whether (later) in day 1 is better or to wait until day 2 though.

Personally I don't see Pie as jumpy, just upset at the speed with which the bandwagon formed on Tenchi. As for me, I tend to err on the side of risky plays, so I like a good early-game wagon, but certainly I know that not everyone is like me and Pie's caution is therefore justified (even if faked to cover jumpiness).

I'd also like to point out that it's possible Pie was bussing his partner to keep the scum off his trail? He seems to be the only one who was concerned with Tenchi's life.

Tenchi's vote on him would suggest otherwise, though, and if they are not partners I don't think Pie is scum. Tenchi wouldn't have pushed the distancing further with his vote.

Unvote: Vote: Tenchi

Hi Tenchi!

How confident are you in semi-clearing PIP like this?

I respect Wall-E's interpretation of my actions (eventhough I think it is wrong).

What does "respect" mean? If you think he's a good player that's all well and good but do you think his vote on you is

reasonable

or

scum-motivated

?

This is interesting, in that not only does he seem to be defending zwet against a non-existant issue (His one-liners, that is his playstyle BTW), but he also states that "can't afford a policy lynch", when not only did zwet only have one vote, but it was a result of something irrelevant to policy.

Now, mikek could have been referring to mykonian's threat to vote zwet as a result of his one-liners. However, I fail to see how that single vote would lead to a policy lynch.

This is a fair point.

I despise random bandwagons. Not only are they (obviously) based on no reasoning, but if they go on for too long, they can spiral out of control and result in a lynch for the town. Does it always happen? No. But I've seen in happen, and it really puts the town at a disadvantage. In addition, since they're not based on actual reasons, the reactions that you obtain from them are a lot less valuable than the reactions from bandwagons with legitimate basis.

Please link to previous game where this has taken place.

It gives the polygamists information on whether they will be able to push certain lynches. (IE- "Ok, this pair has a scummy player, but the other player has been acting pro-town, so it might not be best to press a case on them. However, this other pair has been scummy, and the other player is not considered particularly pro-town. Let's go for them!) It also leads to some questions (Should we lynch a lover that has acted pretty pro-town just because we find the other lover scummy? Should it be ok if two players seem to be tunnelling on the same target just because they're lovers?) That would protentially distract from actual scumhunting, which only benefits those sinful, dirty, l33t-speak using, Uwe-Boll loving polygamists.

I believe that it gives a good deal of information to the scum, and not too much to the town, and could actually turn out to be a distracting factor.

I agree that it could potentially help the polygamists, but your second point, rather than being another negative is more the pro-town counterpoint. e.g. it's quite beneficial to consider whether to lynch one player if their lover isn't scummy, because we know in this setup either they're both scum or neither are. If one is acting scummily in a fashion they usually do, and the other is pro-town, then we are more likely to be able to write off the former's play as simply being consistent with their meta. I don't see how this discussion could "distract" us at all.

Connection between Wall-e and pie, while not scummy, has been noted.

This is a useless filler post.

94 by mikek is a very good assessment of the pros and cons of lover claiming.

Massclaim is not the way to go, your cons heavily outweigh the pros.

You provide no argument for this. Do you think it's useless even on the verge of a lynch on day 2?

ATTENTION TOWN: I have a problem with what's happening.

I don't know if it's just me or this game is moving too slow/cautious, especially discussion wise. The biggest power of town lies in catching scum in their foursome association, and we can't do it with this kind of activity.

What happened to the excitement last during the confirmation stage. I feel like almost everyone went into hiding!

Vote: Zwet

Stop voting without any justification, please, it's not making you look more town. I also view calls for more activity as a slight scumtell (easy way for scum to feign "helping" the town).

OMGUS ALERT!!!

Unvote; Vote: Tenchi

What is your problem? This vote is OMGUS

confirm vote: zwet

Mod: tenchi just voted zwet as well, you missed it in the vote count

Please, that confirm vote stuff is confusing.

@ Wall-E's 109, do you think zwet is scum or not? If not why are you voting him? I hate policy lynches, especially of players like zwet.

I do hope you're just trying to coax zwet into being helpful, because such a lynch in this game would be disastrous. We only have two chances to catch scum, remember. Whatever your feeling on zwet's playstyle, lynching him for it just ain't an option.

Agreed.

For what it's worth, I agree that Tenchi wasn't calling Pie suspicious, but I do think his vote against Zwet seemed fairly OMGUS. Voting for someone without stating your reasons is generally unhelpful.

I believe zwet OMGUS'ed him, and not the other way round? Either way I don't believe zwet has expressed any reasons for voting Tenchi either. It goes both ways, you know.

(Kinda unrelated) question: Do you think Wall-E's, Archon's or Ace's reasons for voting for you are sound?

I would very much like an answer to this as well.

Oh, wait, is no your answer to 128? If so, then why?

Please answer, zwet.

everyone stop feeding the troll so much

zwet stop being intentionally cryptic for attention

HAEL NAU or whatever you said is

not

obviously the words, "Hell no." You really expect anyone to understand that? Being cryptic is anti-town in this case.

I thought it very clearly meant "hell no". My problem with it was that he didn't actually give any

reasons

why. And as you called him a "troll" rather than scum (which implies you don't actually think he is), I would still like to see a good case against him from you/anyone else.

Tenchi's 152 rings true from what I recall of Archon, I didn't see Archon really do much (obviously this was up to now hypocritical but I'm making up for it now with my first proper post).

[ortolan]

Yer I do apologise for the wall of text(s) but it's usually when I haven't been keeping up with a game for an extended period of time (this was really my first post of content in the game at all).

[ortolan]

My argument was "your cons in your previous post outweigh the pros IMHO." And this standpoint was for today, and I never supported not claiming at all, just massclaiming. We've got to see our position tomorrow to determine if a massclaim is needed.

The point was you made kind of a "massclaim sux" statement without extrapolating why. I want to gauge how strongly you feel about claiming; in what circumstances; and why. What about the pros and cons of massclaiming don't you like?

[ortolan]

I'm writing a post now Seraphim

[ortolan]

sorry Seraphim + other players I promise to stop neglecting this game as of now.

Here's the thing: I can't distinguish between zwets as a troll and zwets as scum. He's ruining my reads of EVERYONE ELSE in this game, and so I want him (and his three scumbuds) to die.

I really don't like this attitude when we only have two mislynches.

To me, those favouring early massclaim are suspicious; those who think it is suspicious to favour a massclaim later, e.g. Day 2 are suspicious; those who are defending those who appear to favour an early massclaim are suspicious. This means Archon, Zwet, Ortolan, and Mikek.

You are incorrect. My opinion is that the mass-claim should happen late day one or at some point on day 2, as I recall Adel posting in either an actual previous game or in a discussion relating to this setup. The fact you use the term "those who appear to favour an early massclaim" is just an excuse to lump all these players together, which is scummy.

Add to that the fact that ortolan seems to be defending/protecting Zwet when he isn’t actively ignoring the elephant in the room that is Zwet. Eg., in Ortolan’s long post

This means "ortolan is either defending zwet or not talking about him". What's wrong with that? I think he is town, I do consider I have strong experience with his meta also.

I suggest that this is another example of Zwet using his meta as a shield for when he is really scum, and Ortolan trying to capitalize on that with his scumbuddy, Zwet.

I noticed you referenced this earlier in your post also. Just because zwet may use his meta as a shield for when he is scum, doesn't mean he is doing so this game. The onus is on you, the accuser, to say why.

I think that zwet's crazy enough to bus his partner, and I'm even more convinced of this given how he's denying the viability of the tactic.

Unvote: Vote: zwetschenwasser

just in case.

This presupposes Archon is scum (in that case why aren't you voting him?) It also makes no sense that you simply reinstate your vote on zwet which was already there, in response to Tenchi's prod in 192.

202 by Archon (voting Tenchi) makes no sense. 204 by Wall-E throws me off a bit- unexplained vote on Archon. I would have thought this would lessen the probability of them being scumbuddies but it still could serve as simple distancing.

Archon: What do you think of the dynamics between:

1. Me and Zwet
2. Wall-E and Zwet

I don't like this. The only reason people have to test what other people think of them specifically in relation to another player is when they are scum, to see how they should treat that player to best appear town.

I still hope I can distinguish, and I'm going to assume I can. Then this time it would mean Zwet is town. For this to work, I need some games to end, where I am in with him, but I have the feeling I see a different playstyle when he is scum.

I agree, I think zwet is easier to pick than people think when he is scum.

*you and Archon and Wall-E

I still think Archon is actively lurking though. Notice that instead of commenting on other players, he is commenting on his activity.

Archon: Answering my questions on 214 may change my mind.

Bargaining with your vote?

Agreed this is odd and may be a possible cue to scumbuddy. Wall-E gains a townpoint for the observation.

I was waiting to see if I could quote my PM, but Ser did not aswer, and instead told me to just reveal who my lover is.

I'll give you a hint. I'm in love with a gay troll, who likes to post random things such as "WAKACHAKAI! ALOHA MUUMUU" and "COMMUNIST REVOLUTION! DUCK AND COVER!!!"

Oh, and my lovely gay troll, I don't give a shit weather or not you like it that I released the info that you are my partner.

This is anti-town. Ironically though, it strongly decreases for me the likelihood that they are scum. It's hard to see either of these players being coordinated enough to pull a gambit like this off as scum, especially including the implied resentment between them.

Unvote: Vote: Archon

for being super-nervous about losing for the scumteam.

I'm having a hard time judging here if Wall-E is just coming at this from a different perspective to me or if this is actively scummy. Have you played with zwet before Wall-E?

ATTN all, I am a secret role that is not listed in the opening post. My true role name is Hitler Motivator. One of you is (unbeknownst to you) Adolf Hitler, chosen randomly by the mod, and every night I must choose one of you to see if you are hitler or not. I am not interested in your petty squabbles, since I am in fact a time traveller from the distant future. If you are hitler I immediately turn you into a suicide cult recruiter, satisfy my win condition, and win the game.

I agree with Wall-E- this may simply be zwet trying to deliberately act like his usual eccentric self, in order to give the impression of not being scum.

@ 254-255, as Archon said, this is clearly an open setup.

Some questions on this:

1. Do you think I should lay off Zwet?
2. Do you think Zwet's town/scum/neutral? I noticed you didn't give a note on him and even encouraged lurking.
3. Can you elaborate how I "reacted the way you would expect on votes"? Can you site an example?
4. What do you mean that Archon is "shaky"?
5. Why do you think Wall-E's town despite you saying "The way people hop onto Zwet is doubtful. Some have valid reasons, some (Wall-e!!!) even get on it with a weakened unsure statement... "

Again I hate Tenchi asking for other people's attitudes towards him and zwet. It is still viable he's lovers with zwet (and therefore Archon also) and is particularly concerned about whether or not he appears to be linked to his scumbuddy.

@ortolan: Why were you so defensive of zwet in your big post?

I get town reads from him individually. I see a viable scumpairing including him in it though (see above).

I voted for zwet because everyone else was random voting people too. I wanted to separate myself from zwet for some reason. He's a troll, of course, and I didn't... I don;t know. I just voted for him because I wanted to. Not quite sure actually...

I would like to take this opportunity to point out that there can be no busing, and that separating ones-self from another would not be a good tactic for mafia in this setup.

Um yes but it also makes no sense as town- if you are town then you

know

one hundred percent that zwet is town. Why would you have distanced?

284-285 substantially decreases likelihood of Tenchi-zwet-Archon polygamist group. Unfortunately this doesn't help Tenchi, because one of the main points against this was the townie bias I have towards zwet-Archon, all things considered- I still don't think they'd be able to pull off that fakeclaim that Archon made.

Agreed with Wall-E's 291. He is unlikely to be a polygamist with Tenchi.

Read my posts, and you will se that I never, ever scum hunt.

Not something to be proud of, but I agree with your sentiments on Tenchi

What I don't understand is, if you are a lover pair, why you would want to distance or make cases on one another at all? You have both claimed that bussing and distancing are not good mafia tactics in this set-up. However it seems to me that scum would want to be distanced from (two of) their scum partners. Isn't that so?

Can you explain why a lover pair would want to distance from one another? Who is more likely to distance: a lover pair, or two of the scum?

My opinions precisely. Townpoints.

Archon is town:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... highlight=

Modkilled in this game for claiming that the mod gave him permission to quote a PM the mod accidentally sent him describing the scum setup. Died town and lived a spazzy, non-contributing life while alive. He was aware of the discrepancy which was probably his major motivation for posting the PM in the first place. (off the record, KoC's call to modkill you was unfortunately necessary, but his own fault ultimately for tempting you with that and not qualifying that you aught not post it)

This is the only game he's completed. He acted the fool and learned some lessons about how to play here and he's about as good as I was when I first joined last year. Most every post I've seen from him when looking through his "View all posts by this user" list contains a scumtell, an appeal to emotion, fluff or something similar. It's his meta, and I won't lynch him for it. Neither should Tenchi.

I'm not saying he's guaranteed town by any stretch, but his meta would suggest that this game is just business as usual for him, and further evidence would be requred to convince me.

This agrees with my perceptions of Archon. Wall-E gets townpoints.

1. Not 100%. I can never be. But I am pretty certain. Of course, I need the help of six other players to review my case before a lynch actually passes. If six people are strongly hesitant on my case, a lynch would never pass and of course I would rethink my case. For now, I think he is still scum, despite his attempts to attack me with a misguided PBPA (will elaborate on this later) and his explanations hasn't been adequate (or you could judge his explanations yourself).

"If I push scummy cases it's ok because they'll never get through because townies will stop me!"

Unvote: Vote: Archon

because Looker and I are polygamists pushing a mislynch.

I don't get it.

great. Are you lovers with looker and Wall-e too? That is as clear as a bandwagon vote gets. I want reasons! More of them. and on this moment, I want to know why you think it is ok to vote without giving those reasons!

Townpoints for this.

Vote: Tenchi

Wall-E needs to explain the rationale/reasoning behind his scum-claim though. Archon is town.

[ortolan]

Read the post- it's all there.

I think myk and Archon are acting like legitimate townies rather than two of the mafia who chose to fakeclaim with one another. Plus now it's less plausible Tenchi is scum with them- he is scum independently of them.

[ortolan]

ortolan, you say my questions about why lovers would distance is "your opinion precisely", but I'm not convinced that Archon is innocent and apparently you are. I don't see why you're pretending you agree with me.

If you read my post you'll notice I just agreed with this comments from a general perspective- I don't believe it applies to Archon/zwet however. Their interactions with one another come across as genuine, albeit not really pro-town.

Did you note my response to Wall-E on this? http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 87#1620187.

I don't believe you actually had to "calm down" here.

What is the gambit here? Take note that the polygamists should be able to talk outside this thread to coordinate.

The whole thing with the lover claim and resenting each other. If they are scum that needs to all be an act.

Or you are using that to deliberately ignore his actions since you are the third polygamist. Regardless, eccentricity is NOT a town-tell. It's null to say the least.

Please read the post again, it is actually a reason for

suspecting

zwet (although cumulatively I don't).

If you think Archon is scum then why not vote for him? I asked the first question because Mykonian said that I am pressuring Zwet, and thinks I am scum for it. You took my post out of context.

I don't on balance think he is scum. All possibilities need to continue to be considered however, including gathering evidence contrary to my favoured viewpoint.

Elaborate on your town reads. Do not use meta

I will if I like thankyou. I'm increasingly thinking zwet is really obvious when he's scum (see Lynch All Lurkers Mafia).

What fakeclaim? Why do you have a Townie bias on Archon-Zwet? Again, kindly explain, without using meta, how Zwet/Archon is town.

Post 231 and subsequent strongly suggest town to me- I just don't think they're capable of pretending to go through that fracas if they're scum

Ortolan: You have also effectively ignored my case against Archon. What points are valid, what are not?

I may get around to reviewing this later. For the time I need to catch up and there is no reason to look past an over-whelming town-tell at present. There are bigger fish to fry i.e. you.

Guys, this game is over. Mikek is the scum, and he's just lost for his team.

I don't get it.

This rhetoric without reasoning is him greasing the wheels for a lover claim because he knows it would help the scum more than the town (it's case-by-case, but any massclaim is usually a bad idea day 1, in my honest opinion).

Is not the "claim one person not your lover" also a form of mass-claiming?

Talking about something, even to denounce it (which he's clearly not) is a sign of interest. Like the little kid who studiously avoids looking at girl in his class or a man who repeatedly begins discussions about how vile he finds a certain kind of pornography... mikek, by talking (albiet neutrally) about a lover claim, is demonstrating a positive desire for it. The sooner the better.

The thing is- even assuming this hypothesis about his behaviour is correct, I'm not even necessarily sure there is objective scum benefit in a lover claim earlier rather than later in the game.

247: zwetschenwasser continues to be a spaz. I'm really starting to hate that the most town-looking candidate is so linked to him, and being never 100% sure of anyone, I'm starting to push my zwets policy lynch a bit harder.

Advocating a policy lynch; in this setup; is highly anti-town.

A golfball sitting near a hole will never fall into the hole. It's only when the ball is moving that it can fall in. Discussion about a massclaim is the movement (regardless of the direction, it's still movement) and the massclaim is the ball. Actually doing it is when someone drops the ball into the hole, at which point we can't get it back (no metaphor is perfect).

Same point as above applies. I'm not sure what scum get out of the mass-claim particularly.

I still need to re-read fully but I've seen nothing that makes me want to unvote Tenchi and no indication the people on the Archon wagon have particularly town-motivated reasons for being there. I will also give you more points for Tenchi being scum in my next post

And I am not a lover with mykonian

[ortolan]

Hi, will post very soon I promise

[ortolan]

mikek's 594 against Wall-E is very convincing. I also note particularly that Wall-E is the most "sensible" I've ever seen him in 601. He seems _very_ concerned with justifying all of his actions, in contrast in fact even to some earlier posts this game.

Wall-E, I don't think you ever explained why the mass-not-lover-claim was qualitatively different from simply everyone mass-claiming their lover. I mean obviously it's a lighter version, but you're not necessarily drawing the scum out on anything with it. It didn't even necessarily force them to make pairs between them as they may simply have all named townies as "not their lover", leaving them open to claim whichever pairs they like later.

I don't think you've yet explained what your question in 543 was meant to accomplish.

I'm going to introduce you to the concept of anticipatory information. You know I'm going to ask the question, so please append it to your initial post.

Corndog will be our code-word for this concept for the duration of this topic.

What does all this mean?

Wall-E, have you played with zwet before? I ask this because my experience is that he's rather easy to read as scum.

I agree that Wall-E's vote on Jazzmym is odd. What is your position on mikek now Wall-E?

I'm contemplating the Wall-E wagon. I do find it interesting that he earned 3 votes so quickly after mikek's case (one now withdrawn though), which initially put him at L-1. Tenchi's reluctance to join the Wall-E wagon is also of interest.

[ortolan]

I know what you meant by the corndog analogy- you were suggesting mikek attacks you with scum-tells without saying why they're specifically scummy and without going into proper detail.

I don't understand your point about "anticipatory information" or what question mikek is to predict you're going to ask him. I also don't understand how he can "append" something to his initial post with post-editing disallowed in this game.

I will also answer your question to zEEnon once he's had the opportunity

[ortolan]

Sorry, I'm in too many games to commit to this a second time round.

Thanks for modding though.

For the record, we were highly likely to win imho.

[ortolan]

Thirded