Supermini Time Travel Mafia - Timeline Reshuffle!

[Mr. Flay]

Yaargh, missed it. Posting because I want to see when the game is done and the real game starts....

[Mr. Flay]

Aw, how could I say no to you, Mr. Flay? You're in.

Awwww. I didn't know you cared, 'cam...

This should be a great head trip. *off to read his PM*

[Mr. Flay]

First Causality Question: Assume we wake up Day Two to seven alive. If the Doc goes back to Night One to protect the person who was nightkilled, we would suddenly have 8 alive on D2, and thus a majority for lynch of 5, not 4. Does that mean the lynchee comes back to life too, since they only had 4 votes?

Random Vote:

Narninian because I always do what random.org tells me to.

[Mr. Flay]

Unvote: Narninian, Vote: lazarusmoth

Weren't you paying attention in Causality 101? Coron being evil later has nothing to do with him being evil *today*... we can only judge based on current actions, because anything we do...even you voting for him...could change the timeline!

(ooc: Yes, I know not *everything* changes the timeline/alignments. It's hyperbole. )

By my count, that's three on lazarus. Do we all understand the ramifications of lynching someone today? (as far as I can tell, it'll be the only day someone *stays* dead, since all nine of us are here...)

::edit:: And thanks for the clarification on voting & dying, 'cam.

[Mr. Flay]

He said Coron will be a killer in the future...

He was obiously random voting, while giving a made up, roleplayed reason.

Was it obvious? With the timetravel factor, I wasn't certain, but I'm not at all certain we can lynch someone now for what they *might* do later.

Unvote: lazarusmoth

Heck, even if we *do* lynch mafia, the next time the timeline shifts, they might both be alive and well again, right? I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around the causality here... if a mafia/town role dies, does that 'motive' get excluded in the next shuffle? Otherwise we could kill down half the town, do a shuffle of the timeline or two, and theoretically have a good chance of having both mafia roles shuffle into dead bodies...right?

[Mr. Flay]

I know this sounds scummy, but as much as I want to win, I'm more interested in the mechanics of the game (i.e. making sure the large game is playtested thoroughly). I expect (hope?) this'll be a fairly quick game, without a lot of the metaanalysis that slows down some regular games...

That being said, I'm having a hard time sorting out "IC" (In Character) behavior & flavor text from OOC analysis and game facts. Is lazmoth alluding to anything real about himself with his fortune-telling schtick, or is he just getting in the groove?

Hard to say and no, I'm not asking for a clarification from the mod on any of that, though I am as curious about the fate-of-dead-motives as anyone else. If the mod thinks that's too much to reveal, then I would *suspect* that they do not expire when the motive-holder dies, because of the statement "if everyone alive is on the same team, regardless of future actions).

::timetravel edit:: Wow, I didn't even see the third page...forgive my stupidity for the above paragraph...

[Mr. Flay]

*blink*blink* Anyone?

Vote: Coron

for being fairly silent (I know he's not the only one, but he seems one of the worst offenders)

[Mr. Flay]

Not sure if anyone will post "Motive: To keel you ALL!!1!eleven!!1", but

FOS

anyone who does.

'cam, can you prod Coron? I suspect he forgot this thread...

[Mr. Flay]

I suspect either Coron or lazarusmoth is scum. Laz seems to be saying now that his "divining" about Coron was flavor text, and Coron doesn't seem to know what's going on. 2+ killing groups in a 9 man game? Be serious...even mathcam's not that cruel.

Unvote: Coron, Revote: lazarusmoth

for wanting us to make a mass role claim on Day One... you first.

Second Causality Question: Will we be told that the reality-stream has shifted and motives are no longer what they seemed? I'm working under the assumption that it won't change *every* night, only when events (even day events?) cause paradox to occur... 8)

[Mr. Flay]

Would it be both abilities, or either-or?

I'm not sure about the timestopper thing, but I do know it doesn't make me any less likely to vote you. Again, roles and motives are separate in this game. I

do

have a...

Third Causality Question: If someone has a night action planned for the future and dies, does their action still occur when they are dead in that timeline? Or does it only become real if they are alive on the same night that the action is to take place? (I realize that it can be activated retroactively even in that case, if they are resurrected/protected)

[Mr. Flay]

I don't think I ever said that you claiming a role *would* be helpful. I said the idea of a mass roleclaim would be *unhelpful* (to the town).

Again, use the right terminology, please. MOTIVES shift, ROLES do not. mathcam is known for these sort of split-identity games, and just because someone is a mason or cop or whatever doesn't mean they can't be mafia. Only mafia benefit from knowning who has the roles they need to eliminate.

I'm playing the same experimental game you are. I think you're taking this way too seriously, and your overreaction seems scummy to me. If you're not, hey, I apologize, but that's the way the game is played...

It seems to me that every day that we wake up to a reality shift in our motivations, we'll start at essentially Day One as far as 'tells' go... I think that gives the scum quite a benefit, provided they can stay alive under the radar...on the flip side, 2 vs. 7 is harsher odds than normal, and we don't know what all the roles do...

[Mr. Flay]

Isn't that what I said? My English teacher would probably beat me for that 67-word sentence, if she were here.

That's what I

meant

to say, anyway...that anytime the motives shift, we have to scrap all the accrued knowledge of guilt-by-association, mafia 'tells'. etc...

[Mr. Flay]

FOS: Narninian

IFF (if and only if) lazarusmoth turns out to be town, and the motives don't shift tonight...some of those secondary reasons were pretty shoddy.

However, as mentioned, this is an experiment and I'm wanting to see the actual mechanics tested. No vote change for now.

[Mr. Flay]

Well, in short, yes - I know what *my* motivations are for doing so. You are free to vote/FOS otherwise.

In addition, there's some differences between your vote and mine. For one thing, I was the 3rd vote for lazmoth under normal circumstances. You put a 4th vote of 5 on while we were under deadline, making it that much harder for lazmoth to fall below the threshold to be deadline lynched. And for another, you specifically mention the deadline as a reason for doing so. If he turns out to be town, then you can lay the blame at the deadline and not yourself for casting the 'lynching vote'. If laz is mafia, we *both* get credit. Do you know already that he's not?

As a matter of fact, all of your "Secondary" reasons seem bogus, because I've already posited that death on Day One is permanent, since there's no way to go back and change your vote, only your night actions, as we don't have any Night Zero actions that would allow different vote results.

It's a 'fun' quirk of this game setup that the day on which you are least likely to lynch scum, is the one you can't take it back, ever. If someone can figure out a scenario in which the Day One lynch is reversible, I'm more than willing to hear it.

[Mr. Flay]

Anyone? Anyone...Bueller?

I'm guessing about 24 hours to go 'til deadline. lazarus, if you've got another suggestion for a lynch, you'd better make it soon...

[Mr. Flay]

We got a Night One choice and a Night Two choice, right? That could mean two kills timed for today, to try to maximize the death toll. And since there was no causality shift, that probably means two of our pro-town players are dead (3, counting lazarusmoth). There's likely two mafioso, so four pro-town players left.

I think we've got a good shot here at taking this down. Even our dead players are on our side when it comes to voting, and someone out there should have a message from me. Assuming they're not dead, that person can confirm this by pointing out the factual error in the above sentence.

[Mr. Flay]

Well, lacking anything major in the way of revelations (I'm beginning to think my correspondent is either dead or scummy right now), I'd say that right now StD's role sounds plausible, because mine is equally weird. Doesn't say anything about his *motive*, but if he's willing to use it to help the town, that sounds fairly positive in my book.

Uraj45 on the other hand, seems pretty concerned about the concept of two night kills. That might be because he's worried about a second killer, or it might be a diversion.

Narninian I'm fairly neutral on right now. Stewie *may* have forgotten the game? Coron's absent right now as well...

Analyzing day one voting patterns, I'd say Stewie seems like a good chance, and possibly Narninian. Two of the people voting for lazmoth have been verified as pro-town, which increases the chances of the others being scum. I'm obviously excluding myself from that metric since I know my motive, that leaves my choices as pretty obvious.

Vote: Stewie

- I don't think there's much danger of an insta-lynch today with six alive.

[Mr. Flay]

I'm not really sure where to vote yet. I was hoping for a little more participation today. While I'm happy to vote for you if you agree with my logic , do you have any commentary on the actual substance of the post?

[Mr. Flay]

Gyeah. I've got next to nothing to go on today. I still think Stewie is a good possibility because he said he'd be back and hasn't been, and he was the first vote on the lazmoth bandwagon. I know, I was too, but two of those people *died*, which narrows the field considerably. The only other person on that bandwagon was Narninian, who said himself that I should be voting for him based on yesterday, and that's a little too much double-bluffing for me to think he's scum today. If Stewie's scum, I'll buy that Narn could have put the fourth vote on with his partner, however.

mathcam

: Is it intentional that neither Save the Dragons or big_kahunia are in the "not voting" category?

[Mr. Flay]

I don't think the dead can vote *today*, at least, not to count for the lynch that happens now. If I understand the mechanics correctly, if enough of them vote differently today, and then are subsequently pre-incarnated, they could change who dies today, in the future, but changing the past, and so affecting the future again... *ow*

Anyway. Since they're all town, I'm not sure it'll matter all that much, although I'm curious to see what will happen too.. if A,B,C,D vote for E, and G,H,I vote for F, and J and K are dead but come back, and they both voted for F, then suddenly E would become dead tonight and E would be retroactively alive. Right?

Now you can jump on the flay wagon...

Hey! Just cuz I'm scum in every other game doesn't mean I'm scum here....well, okay, all but one game...

[Mr. Flay]

Well I guess that disproves the "scum can't shuffle into dead bodies" theory.

Would it make a difference if scum might reshuffle, Coron? Hypothetically, they could both shuffle into dead bodies, now that we have...what, 4 of them? Or both back to life, and then we'd be screwed, but through no fault of our own...I think the conventional wisdom still applies.

[Mr. Flay]

Nothing from my role caused it. I'm actually trying to figure out what sort of thing *would* cause it... no one came back to life, so maybe it's someone's special power?

I will freely admit, I was scum before the reshuffle...

Well, that's certainly an interesting way to clear yourself. If you're lying about being shuffled out of the mafia, of course, no one else is going to call you on it...

Coron, Flay, Uraj45, and Save the Dragons? Is that who's left?

[Mr. Flay]

Well, I guess you're in the wrong game then...is it too much coincidence to suggest that Narninian had the power which triggered the timeline shuffle, just before he died?

Coron's giving me the biggest scum vibe currently, but I don't want to vote just yet. Uraj45, who was your partner before the change?

[Mr. Flay]

Does anyone care to finish out this game, or have we extracted what fun we can before the real thing?

Vote:Coron

just to speed things along. You'll stop being scum, one way or the other...