The Werewolves of Millers Hollow (Game Over)

[Shinnen_no_Me]

I don't buy X's claim. I've heard of Unlynchable as both a town and scum role anyway.

I bet he's actually a UNK SK. This is the perfect fake claim for that.

I'm actually liking this idea. If X was really unlynchable, why would he claim? That would be like the worst idea in a long history of bad ideas. He's basically calling for a N0, if he's a town. So, that leaves us with: a) he's really a bad player; b) he's lying; c) he's truly lynchable but is anti-town; d) he's a jester playing some inverse psycology trick. Either way, he's up to no good. However, I believe that trying to lynch him in D1 is a bad idea. We can learn more about him in D2, if he survives.

And for mayor, I really don't know... I don't recognize most of the players, so I wouldn't know their playstyles. I'll have to wait a bit longer to lay that vote.

Mod: About your rule 11, I believe it is wrong (though, I might be wrong). If n is the number of votes in play, that would mean that a lynch would occur as soon as someone lays a vote. Why? Because you have n/2 + 1 = 1/2 + 1 = 0.5 + 1 = 1.5, rounded down = 1. That means that as soon as a vote is cast, the condition for a lynch is met. I believe that n must be the number of players, and only the numbers of votes in play at deadline. Am I being clear? (sometimes I can't get my point across with numbers, so I want to be sure I'm explaining myself right.)

[Shinnen_no_Me]

The Fonz - Female, 11 years old... Hmmm... Reminds me of Lilith, in Supernatural.

Any roads, I agree with Percy in the Mayor issue. Being a Mayor carries a great responsability, which I don't know if I can fulfil, hence why I don't want it. Though I'm getting better with every game I play, I still get a bit emotional with very good players that are even scum. Also, do we have to have a Mayor? Just wondering if there's a deadline for that, or if it's mandatory to have one.

Shadow Knight is also right regarding the X issue and his supposedly unlynchable ability. But, one way or another, I don't think it was wise to claim so soon, hence why I'm distrusting of him right now.

[Shinnen_no_Me]

Well, I might be out of date, but I want to say something regarding the agressiveness. I think town should be more agressive than passive, however, it should not reach an extreme of agressiveness. I've seen some games where the mafia uses the agressiveness of some pro-town players to lead the lynches as they wish. The Fonz, I believe this is what happened in War of Heaven II, isn't it? But again, a passive stance won't help either. Some agressive is needed, but all attacks should come with good bases and not just for the sake of lynching, or for pure guts.

Regarding The Fonz's question, something strikes me as truth in X's claim, however, something as well strikes me as odd. I'm more inclined to believe (but I'm still doubting) that his claim is real, but that his alignment is shady (at least, not pro-town). The wifom is really blurring my mind in this issue.

[Shinnen_no_Me]

Oh, another thing. I, as I said before, believe that the best course of action is not lynching X. N1 will give us more information about him than a D1 lynch.

Also, Mufasa, why? You could as well not vote for now. Or, are you looking for a self-lynch? Or, what's even worst, are you trying to look like you're looking for a lynch to avoid a lynch? One way or another, I believe you're trying to confuse town, and that's never a good thing to do. IGMEOY.

[Shinnen_no_Me]

Wait, does anyone has meta on X? Is he the kind of player that can pull a gambit like that? Or is he a lousy player who might have a good power role but didn't know how to play it?

@ Mufasa: I suggest you stop voting yourself. It looks pretty suspicious and I consider it being scummy.

This strikes me as a scum giving advice to his scumbuddy.

FoS

Also, jester/vampire speculation should stop.

I know that speculations about these roles are usually bad for town, but who's to say that we don't have a vampire, specially with the werewolf theme?

I'm also leaning for The Fonz as major, so, for now,

Vote for Major: The Fonz

Why did the claim "have to come out", exactally?

I think we're in a better position now knowing what we know. I'm not saying that it would have come out eventually, as in, it was inevitabe; I'm saying that it should come out, and the best time was early. I think it's good that we know, but I would expect someone with that power to drop the claim and then go about trying to avoid being lynched just the same. The fact that he has dropped this and ran doesn't look good for him at all.

Hmm... I disagree with you. What good would make us to know the claim so early? If he's trule a unlynchable townie, claiming would only take him to a certain N1K. And, why would he want that? I can only think in a use for that as a way to protect another power role from a NK, but that isn't the case right now. And claiming to get the major role isn't good either, as other players have said, why would we want to have an unlynchable major that we can't disposse in case he's doing a bad job? That would be like having a dictator! Really, I can't see how his early claim is good. Also, in general, uncalled claims are never good.

[Shinnen_no_Me]

Oh, I see. Well, you were giving me good pro-town vibes, but well (you're still giving those vibes, btw).

Unvote for major

Also, @Jahudo: I saw some comments on his meta, but I wanted the opinion on this exact matter of someone who has played before with him. Is he capable of doing such gamble?

Uh, ANYONE who is town and not a mason or role with a night action should want to be nightkilled. Duh.

I agree with this one. Why? Because if a vanilla townie doesn't get NK, it means (likely) that a power role gets NK. And, it's better for town to have power roles. So, it's better than a vanilla townie dies in the night rather than a power role.

[Shinnen_no_Me]

Hmmm... Let me say a my opinion on this four-man fight. I really don't agree with giving scum the mayorship, because it is, as other has said, give more power to the scum. Let's say we elect a scum mayor. First day, townie mislynch. Second day, the mayor bus one of his partners, the most scummiest of all, and lynches him. So far, one mislynch, one good lynch. Average. Next day, the mayor mislynches again. With the excuse that he lynched a scumbag, it's possible that he retains his role for yet another day, when he commits the last mislynch. Too many townie deaths. Not good. It's true that giving the mayorship to a pro-town player would probably make us lose such player, but at least I think he or she would do better than an anti-town one.

But, I don't believe Firestarter is scum for giving this plan. He had his reasons, which can be partially true, but in the end it's better to elect a pro-town player.

Regarding X's claim issue:

Submitting for the record some Xtoxm meta:

He was town and claimed mafia.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 951#858951

He was scum and claimed mafia

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 475#980475

He was scum and claimed scum

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 53#1067853

He claimed mason relatively early w/ a preplanned gambit (see second link)

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=212
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=215

This was a shoot-style game...I replaced out and don't remember the exact context but I remember he claimed something different about his gun early...he was SK

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10997


So, this is why I say he likes to gambit and he likes to claim. I think I am forgetting one but can't recall the game. Maybe the UPick in marathon that never gained traction?

My guess is he wanted to be lynched for some reason. I don't know what that reason is though? That is where I am not experienced enough to judge.

Taking into account that meta, I agree with you that X is probably trying to get lynched. I say (yet once again) that we bury this matter and let that, hopefully, N1 will solve this problem.

Oh, and finally, I liked the two candidates for mayor idea. So, here are mine:

Elect: Shadow Knight and The Fonz

(I know that Fonz doesn't want, but well, I still thinks he's very pro-town)

[Shinnen_no_Me]

I think Xtoxm is trying too hard to GET lynched. This automatically makes me want to *not* lynch him. He's lurking enough to piss people off and this is exactly what I would do if I wanted to get lynched, not if I wanted to prove myself as town and lynchable. I say we let him get vigged tonight. Either by the town actually having a vig or by the town as a whole directing the doc to *not* protect xtoxm. This gives the scum the option to either have a small chance of being foiled by the doc or take the sure kill on xtoxm.

This^

Last time I saw a player trying to get lynched so much ended up with a Jester lynch (taboo topic, but still a possibility). That's why I prefer to let him survive the first day and wait to see what night does to him.

On another topic, there's a big discussion regarding the scum or pro-town mayor, and in all of that there's always the same thing: the mayor gets the full responsibility of the lynch. Why's this? I mean, the mayor can have two votes, but that's not enough to lynch a player. What about the rest of the players? And here's why I think a pro-town player would do the role better, because it's less likely that he or she will let themselves be routed for a lynch they're not considering. Giving the mayorship to scum is not a good idea, IMO, but it's not enough to think that the one who proposed it is scum. It's just a different approach (one that uses too much wifom, I believe).

[Shinnen_no_Me]

Ok, I've been convinced. X should be lynched today. It's true that it will be unlikely that he gets killed during N1, and would he be a Jester, it's better to get rid of him as soon as possible.

Unvote, vote: Xtomx

Btw, what happens if he's truly unlynchable?

[Shinnen_no_Me]

We don't know if there's a vig in the game

. If there isn't, Xtoxm doesn't die at night, no matter whether he's town or not. Why would scum kill him now when his mere existence is a distraction they can manipulate?

Xtoxm won't help us in any way. He won't full claim. He won't play the game. He'll just be siiting there being entirely useless and hurting the town until he dies. Therefore, we lynch him now to test his claim, since it's about the most useful thing that can be done with him.

Bolded section especially. Other players have been indicating that there is a vig (like Shadow Knight in 84 or Mike in 234), but I don't see why.

Well, I, myself, believe that in such large game there should be at least one vig-type role. It's probably that I'm not the only one who thinks like this, as it's only logical to believe it. It's not like I have a real proof, more like logic taking into account the setup.

I don't want to lynch him because I think the scum will kill him for us.

Why on earth would they do that?

I usually don't like to answer questions pointed to other players, but I believe SK has answered this already. He said that killing X would be a sure death rather than the 93% or so chance of killing another player (due to a possible doc protection).

[Shinnen_no_Me]

Self-vote is the vote that best allows me to attain

my win condition

. I find it hard to overlook that logic. The "Pick two people" approach forces you to go beyond that and enables clearer thinking that helps the game move along, since naturally, the only people who would be absolutely confident in voting for other people would be scum, since they know their win condition is equally served by their scumbuddies who are confirmed to be the same alignment and thus we're likely to come to a stalemate in mayor voting. I find that approach personally helpful.

Wait, what? Bolded the important part. So, you're saying that you have a personal win con, different from that of the town?

[Shinnen_no_Me]

Self-vote is the vote that best allows me to attain

my win condition

. I find it hard to overlook that logic. The "Pick two people" approach forces you to go beyond that and enables clearer thinking that helps the game move along, since naturally, the only people who would be absolutely confident in voting for other people would be scum, since they know their win condition is equally served by their scumbuddies who are confirmed to be the same alignment and thus we're likely to come to a stalemate in mayor voting. I find that approach personally helpful.

Wait, what? Bolded the important part. So, you're saying that you have a personal win con, different from that of the town?

No? Read post two. The win condition in the sample role PM, which I'm quoting because quoting my own role PM would break the rules, specifically says "

You

win when the threat of lycanthropy is eliminated." Win conditions are given to you in terms of whow the individual player wins. Thus, I refer to my win condition, since I assume other people have different win conditions.

You're right with that. However, you stating that seems strange. Like if you had to read the sample PM to know about the winning condition. Maybe it's just me being paranoid, but still, I will note this down for a future analysis.

[Shinnen_no_Me]

I'm not buying the vanilla claim at all, so I'm leaving my vote as it is for now. We just can't erase all X did just because he left asking for a replacement. If X/millar is really a vanllia, it was very despictable of X to play like that, and he should just as well be banned/warned or something like that. The point of Mafia games is to play to win. To WIN. Not to do a practical joke that would leave your team in a bad situation.

[Shinnen_no_Me]

So, what did you want to accomplish with this, SK? And why did you vote, Fonz, after SK asked nicely to not vote for him (because he has some sort of a plan)?

[Shinnen_no_Me]

So, now he have to elect a mayor to end the day, right? Ok, so far, Yos has taken the most protown points, so I will vote for him. I still think that either Fonz or Sk would have make a good job too, but I find Yos better.

Vote for mayor: Yos

[Shinnen_no_Me]

I know for previous games that Zwet likes, better said, loves to hammer, so I'm not finding that much suspicious.

And I think millar vote for mayor is valid, as it's reflected in the votecount.