Mini 777 Scottish Mafia - Game Over

[Kreriov]

/confirm

[Kreriov]

Vote: Kreriov

for being the first to confirm but the last to vote for anyone /sigh

[Kreriov]

Ah, poor indentureddjinn. You think the Sharks will be able to claw their way out of that 0-2 hole they are in? I actually sort of hope so. Not sure I would like the Wings facing the Ducks again! The Wings certainly have a great record vs. the Sharks...

[Kreriov]

Yeah, GO CAPS! I am so hoping that there is a Wings/Caps final. I am from Michigan but now live in Northern Virginia. If there is a Wings/Caps final, I just might have to find out what it is like to have a maxed out credit card! I will wear my Caps jersey with my Wings Stanley Cup 2008 Champions cap to the games in DC! (I would wear my Wings jersey with a Caps hat, but the Wings jersey was signed by all the 2008 team during their White House visit last year!)




Oh yeah, back to the game. Do they play hockey in Scotland?

[Kreriov]

Ha. Blackhawks. When was the last time they won a Cup again?

Oh, and rather than be a bit embarrassed should the 'Michigan Sucks' bandwagon truly get going:

Unvote

[Kreriov]

Not really sure that vote count is correct. Didn't Lotus vote for Exalt?

ABR has a point, without some voting, no discussion and voting for Lotus because he voted with no explanation is at least something. (Plus I am curious if the vote count was a mistake or if there is something hinky going on. Thats right, hinky. I like NCIS.)

Vote: Lotus

[Kreriov]

For the record, the Red Wings are a GREAT sports team. You can make fun of me for cheering for the Lions....

[Kreriov]

Just a quick post to say I will be

V/LA

over the weekend. (More than usual meaning I doubt I will even check my email.)

Oh, and go Wings!

[Kreriov]

I actually had a bit of time before the Caps game tonight, so I thought I would check in and lo and behold Lotus has 4 votes. Not to dangerous as yet, but given that I might not be able to check again until Monday, I will

Unvote

and let the rest of you apply pressure if you want! Have a good weekend!

[Kreriov]

Ah, it seems Stark missed this so I will do it again

Unvote

All this talk about bandwagons and lurkers and what not does not really seem all that illuminating. The only things I really noticed were the following:

This:

1) He's probably just a townie. Inspectors/Doctors usually don't want to draw so much attention, especially day 1. The opportunity cost of them dying early in the game outweighs the possible good that can be done from them being loud.

I'm not sure speculating about power roles is in the town's best interests at this early stage.

Good call Gwyn. This looks like rolefishing to me. Not a town move.

FOS: indentrueddjinn

And also this:

Part of OSP 7 from Lotus

Not really sure that vote count is correct. Didn't Lotus vote for Exalt?

ABR has a point, without some voting, no discussion and voting for Lotus because he voted with no explanation is at least something. (Plus I am curious if the vote count was a mistake or if there is something hinky going on. Thats right, hinky. I like NCIS.)

Vote: Lotus

I clearly gave a reason for my vote.

Really? Here is the entire OSP 5 from Lotus

Unvote, Vote: Exalt

Liar. I do not see any explanation, either in the post itself or the 4 posts before it.

Therefore

Vote: Lotus

[Kreriov]

Alright all, sorry for the long post, but Lotus' uncalled for insult and outright lies have now pissed me off.

@Lotus - Not only can I read, but I can tell times and dates and put posts in chronological order. You should try it sometime.

Here are yours:
Post 1:

/CONFIRMED FOR GREAT JUSTICE!

Post 2:

Vote: Lotus

Obv Scum

Post 3:

Kreriov copied me!

Post 4:

Not to mention, Exalt, your vote doesn't count unless its bolded.

Post 5:

Unvote, Vote: Exalt

Where is the explanation? And I DO NOT mean your after the fact explanation.

Your Post 5 corresponds to post 62 in the entire thread. Read the 15 posts before it and then tell me how it follows in way, shape, or form from the conversation. That vote in post 5 is out of the blue with absolutely no explanation. Oh, right, until after the fact when you get called on it.

Post 6:

Gwyn, did you accidentally post that vote from your alt, Lotus?

Whaa..?

The reasoning for the vote is quite simple: We have to bandwagon on someone sometime, why not cut to the chase?

So your vote on Exalt was because we need to bandwagon someone. Again, great after the fact explanation. Maybe if you had said so WHEN YOU VOTED I wouldn't be calling you on this. You did not and felt the need to insult me because you failed. Nice.

[Kreriov]

Well, I have certainly seen wagons on Townies that do not contain any scum, but its very very rare. Everything you guys are talking about is so theorectical it is really no help. Once we get big wagon going and a lynch, you have analyze what happened in THIS game, on THIS wagon, and with THESE players.

On another note, I liked how Lotus responded to my post. He did forget he gave no explanation for his vote on Exalt, but did not react badly or panicy when I said I was angry and pressed him on it. So I will

Unvote

[Kreriov]

@Exalt - Trying to find anything you can to take the spotlight off you it looks like. You are full of crap. I did not take my vote of Lotus because he called me silly. Please, try to at least follow along. I took my vote off because despite me pressing him very hard and with obivous anger, he did not panic or get overly defensive. That reads town to me. I still do not like that he voted with no explanation and only came up with one after the fact, but I am satisfied enough that I removed my vote.

Which brings be to ABR. Have you actually contributed anything of any substance at all? Barely enough posts to avoid getting prodded and most of those are of the 'Yeah, what he said' variety. Care to actually contribute anything of substance?

[Kreriov]

@Exalt - Um, first off, ABR refers to Alfred B. Rampage, so you can get off the high horse you are on. Second, even though you only have one vote on you NOW, you have been a central figure in the game for quite awhile. You have more posts and have changed votes more than twice as much as anyone else. If I am your current flavor of the month, fine. You shotgun out accusations, any accusations. You are either scum hoping something will stick somewhere or a townie hoping to get reactions.

Now, I will certainly agree that saying I liked how Lotus responded was not the best choice of words. I did not like what he said, I liked that he didn't panic and get all defensive. He clearly voted with no explanation and only came up with a one ex-post-facto when called on it. Just because I unvoted does not mean I am not suspicious, I just think that scum would have reacted with more indignation and more defensively to my posts against him. I am not satisfied with Lotus' explanation, but I also am not sure enough he is scum to put a vote on him, or anyone else right now for that matter.

[Kreriov]

Just to clarify things a bit better, I have been the central figure on purpose. Obviously I could lurk like drakethefake or westbrook and not be in the limelight at all, but I choose not to. I didn't realize doing that was scummy, so maybe I SHOULD lurk because you clearly told me that only scum go into the spotlight. Good call there mafioso.

Really? In what part of the following did I tell you that only scum go into the spotlight?

@Exalt - Um, first off, ABR refers to Alfred B. Rampage, so you can get off the high horse you are on. Second, even though you only have one vote on you NOW, you have been a central figure in the game for quite awhile. You have more posts and have changed votes more than twice as much as anyone else. If I am your current flavor of the month, fine. You shotgun out accusations, any accusations. You are either scum hoping something will stick somewhere or a townie hoping to get reactions.

Now, I will certainly agree that saying I liked how Lotus responded was not the best choice of words. I did not like what he said, I liked that he didn't panic and get all defensive. He clearly voted with no explanation and only came up with a one ex-post-facto when called on it. Just because I unvoted does not mean I am not suspicious, I just think that scum would have reacted with more indignation and more defensively to my posts against him. I am not satisfied with Lotus' explanation, but I also am not sure enough he is scum to put a vote on him, or anyone else right now for that matter.

And are you going to apologize for being such a dumbass that you do not understand that ABR stands for Alfred B. Rampage and that I called him out for being even more of a lurker than either Drake or West? Go look at ABRs posts. Has he posted any real content at all? Or are you going to ignore that little part of my post because you so want to falsely accuse me of not scumhunting?

Telling lies and twisting words IS a scum tell, why don't you explain why you felt the need to do at least one if not both of those.

Oh, and for the record, who do the Wings face next? Please tell me its not a team that beat the Sharks...

[Kreriov]

@Exalt - Whoa, slow down there. I jumped on your case? Really? Or did I point out how YOU have been acting only after you attacked me? Hmm, lets go back and look. Yup, you jumped on my case first. Anything I have had to say against you is pure defense. Once again, stop lying.

[Kreriov]

Well, if ABR gets a pass for the week, can we at least get a few questions lined up for him when he comes back?

I have two.

First, what has he been doing for the past 2 weeks?

Second, care to back up your OMAGUS charge against me?

Just getting em down now so I don't forget. I am sure I will have more.

[Kreriov]

Not really sure what a chainsaw defense might be.

Just because I have pointed out your inconsistencies and lies, its ok though. A little OMAGUS from you, Exalt, after getting caught is expected.

[Kreriov]

Ok, I will quote it again.

Just to clarify things a bit better, I have been the central figure on purpose. Obviously I could lurk like drakethefake or westbrook and not be in the limelight at all, but I choose not to. I didn't realize doing that was scummy, so maybe I SHOULD lurk because you clearly told me that only scum go into the spotlight. Good call there mafioso.

Really? In what part of the following did I tell you that only scum go into the spotlight?

@Exalt - Um, first off, ABR refers to Alfred B. Rampage, so you can get off the high horse you are on. Second, even though you only have one vote on you NOW, you have been a central figure in the game for quite awhile. You have more posts and have changed votes more than twice as much as anyone else. If I am your current flavor of the month, fine. You shotgun out accusations, any accusations. You are either scum hoping something will stick somewhere or a townie hoping to get reactions.

Now, I will certainly agree that saying I liked how Lotus responded was not the best choice of words. I did not like what he said, I liked that he didn't panic and get all defensive. He clearly voted with no explanation and only came up with a one ex-post-facto when called on it. Just because I unvoted does not mean I am not suspicious, I just think that scum would have reacted with more indignation and more defensively to my posts against him. I am not satisfied with Lotus' explanation, but I also am not sure enough he is scum to put a vote on him, or anyone else right now for that matter.

And are you going to apologize for being such a dumbass that you do not understand that ABR stands for Alfred B. Rampage and that I called him out for being even more of a lurker than either Drake or West? Go look at ABRs posts. Has he posted any real content at all? Or are you going to ignore that little part of my post because you so want to falsely accuse me of not scumhunting?

Telling lies and twisting words IS a scum tell, why don't you explain why you felt the need to do at least one if not both of those.

Oh, and for the record, who do the Wings face next? Please tell me its not a team that beat the Sharks...

I will reiterate. At what point did I tell you scum go into the spotlight or imply that you were scum because you were going into the spotlight? (Hint: The answer is never, and yet you clearly say I did this. That is a lie on your part genius.) The only mention I made of a spotlight before this explicitly says I thought you were trying to get the spotlight OFF you. Now THAT might be a scummy thing to do...

As for the OMAGUS, THAT comes from the fact that you pretty much blew your top in post 172. (I am not quoting it because it is so long.) In a big part of it you get all indignant because you somehow mistake my pointing out that ABR (that's Alfred B. Ramage for clarification because you clearly were to slow on the uptake to realize this the first time) for lurking and not contributing as somehow accusing you of doing the same. You did not like criticism you perceived as being against you and end up voting for me. That sure has an OMGUS flavor in my book.

[Kreriov]

@ABR and Exalt - Well, apparently you two are the only ones who see anything because you are the only 2 voting for me. You think that might be because Exalt's entire case consists of not liking that I took my vote off of Lotus? You keep saying things like obv scum, newbie scum, etc. but have no proof and will never have proof. It basically seems like you do not like that I actually dared to defend myself against your weakness and that makes me scum in your eyes. Well, your continued unfounded attacks and so-called cases make you seem scummy in my eyes.

Exalt talks about my case against him. Um, last time I checked, I am not voting for EITHER you or ABR. I have not really tried to make a case against either of you because I do not automatically equate attacks against me as scum tells. That is a part of the game. Your CONTINUED attacks when all I have done is defend myself and point out your errors, however, are becoming scummy. ABR posts a vote on me with little or no reason, drawing my attention to him. In trying to figure out why he voted for me, I observe that he has been actively lurking pretty much the entire game, point it out, and suddenly, me making an observation is OMGUS against him? Really? Talk about overly defensive!

Exalt reads a post in which I clearly make this observation about ABR, somehow mistakes it as against him, goes off about it, and wonders why I call him a dumbass? Um, hello, that was pretty dumb there Exalt. Oh, and then he reads a post in which I say I think Exalt is trying to get out of the spotlight. I even point out that trying to get out of the spotlight is reasonable for BOTH scum and town players. Suddenly, somehow, Exalt says I have told him that scum go into the spotlight therefor I called him scum? Huh? How the hell do you get that? So, again, either Exalt deserves the dumbass moniquer or he is deliberately lying and twisting words. Pick one.

I have not built any case against Exalt and barely one against ABR (that he has been actively lurking). I have not tried to build cases against them, at least not yet. All I have done is defend myself against their attacks and pointed out their (especially Exalt's) mistakes and errors in logic. Any suspicion on them is a result of their own actions, so just keep on keeping on you two.

[Kreriov]

@Exalt - See, there you go again. I just cannot figure out if you twist words and lie deliberately or just spew so much that you can't get your story straight.

Check it out, I HAVE NEVER PLACED A VOTE ON EXALT.

So Exalt just lied.

Again.

Exalt, I do not consider nor will I consider mere aggressiveness as scummy. What I do consider scummy are lies and word twisting. There is absolutely no reason for townie lie or twist words. From my perspective, you have done both. The thing is, given your complete failure at reading comprehension, I am not ready to declare you scum.

Alfred B. Rampage on the other hand....
The continued lurking is really getting old. There are certainly others who are lurking, but given his OMGUS towards me in his few posts, I think its time to return the favor.

Vote: Alfred B. Rampage

[Kreriov]

Well, I am voting for ABR because I think he is more likely to be scum than Exalt. Yes, Exalt has lied. Yes, I would characterize much of Exalt's action as OMGUS, mainly because he flipped his lid when he confused me saying that ABR was lurking as accusing Exalt of lurking. He thought I accused him of lurking and got mad at me. That does not make him scum. Neither does lying. It does make Exalt suspicious and I have expressed that suspicion. That is all I have right now, suspicion.

My suspicion of ABR is much greater. For one, his claim of OMGUS against me is weak at best. Look at the facts. ABR votes for me out of pretty much nowhere after actively lurking through the beginning of the game. Couple that with Exalt mentioning some other lurkers. Well guess what, this brings ABR and his lurking to my attention and I point out that he has, indeed, been actively lurking and not contributing. I didn't vote for him at that point. I didn't try to make a case against him. I was merely making an observation and dismissing his vote because it really has no value other than that it was a vote. Suddenly that is OMGUS? Really? Pointing out that a guy voting for me is an active lurker and pretty much leaving it there is OMGUS? Since when? ABRs reaction, however, is OMGUS. I dared to point out he was lurking and not contributing and his limited posting is entirely dedicated to attack me? Has he even bothered to comment on ANYTHING of substance other than me?

As I stated, the reason I am voting for ABR is his continued active lurking. He makes no cases. He doesn't even pay attention enough to notice obvious sarcasm. How can he completely miss that it takes over 3 days to get a single page of posts or that really only 6 people have posted? He barely posts enough to avoid a prod and his posts have little or no content. That smells like scum to me, so I vote for him.

[Kreriov]

@ABR - Not just lurking, actively lurking. You post just enough to not receive a prod with almost no content. Your content also indicates that at best you skim through posts, not really reading or trying to understand what has been said.

Still, you do make one good point. There are six other lurkers. It seems to me like players who are participating are going after others who are participating simply because we actually get responses and have content to analyze.

[Kreriov]

Fair enough.

Unvote

[Kreriov]

Well, the L-1 was a mistake. No one was even close to L-1. My question would be was it truly a mistake or was it one of those kind of 'mistakes' made on purpose to try and achieve a goal, presumably trying to look more town.

Anyway, good to have both of you in the game.

[Kreriov]

to stop being such an arrogant jerk about everything, to actually contribute to the game, and to stop OMGUS voting everyone because you don't care...

its obvious you don't care about this game so wtf... show a little respect for everyone else that is playing

QFT

I am not going to put a vote back on Lotus just yet. My participation usually goes down on weekends, so I want to see what develops throughout today and over the weekend.

It does seem like the last two of Lotus' votes has an OMGUS flavor.

[Kreriov]

@Lotus - Why did you not give any explanation when answering Wulfy's little multiple choice quiz? You pick me over ABR and Alvin over Ztife. Your picks mean nothing without backing, not that they mean much anyway. Hell, Wufly even specifically says the most important thing is the explanation

You're allowed to pick both/neither/one, but the most important thing is to explain why.

and yet you leave it out. Why?

[Kreriov]

@Wulfy - Not selective, I just missed it. Maybe I just liked that he said ABR seemed more scummy so missed he didn't say why. After all, I think its obvious.

Now a question for you. You state

I also find it interesting that Thesp disagreed with me on every point in my who's scummier propositions except Lotus. Not a scum tell, but interesting...

but I do not see anywhere in which you answer your own question. Maybe you just assume it is obvious and it can certainly be deduced by looking at Thesp's answers, but I do not see anywhere where you state it explicitly, with or without explanation.

[Kreriov]

@Wulfy - sorry, but that does not cut it. So at some point you suspected ABR, then at some point you suspected me. You have been very consistent in suspecting Lotus. Wonderful. So we are supposed to go back through your posts and discern how you would answer your own question? Well, no offense, but I am not going to go through your posts and try to keep track of who your current flavor of the month might be in regards to a question you should answer you own damn self, seeing as you posted it. I might also point out that, even had I or anyone been willing to do this, are we just supposed to read your mind as to who you find more scummy between Alvin and Ztife? You just listed your own posts and I see nothing to indicate you preference for either, but that is one of you question. So what gives? Are you just posting to post?

[Kreriov]

@Mod:

I will be V/LA for this weekend. Will be back Tues morning.

[Kreriov]

@Ztife - Sorry, you fail at even lurking there Ztife

@Mod:

I will be V/LA for this weekend. Will be back Tues morning.

Check it out
Note the date and time posted. Note when I say I will be back. Note the date and time of this post. Hell, I even bolded the @Mod. Did you really just vote for me for absolutely no reason with less than a week until the deadline? After doing, well, pretty much nothing for the entire game? You have exactly 17 posts to my 29 and you say I am lurking? Really?

Unvote

Vote: Ztife

[Kreriov]

Wow, that is pretty poor logic there Drake. Essentially you just said we should policy lynch Lotus. What, exactly, has Lotus done that is scummy? You don't like him and consider him useless, but does that make him scummy? Has he lied or cast a vote for no apparent reason? Has made false accusations? Has he been deliberately and reprehensibly offensive?

Others have done all of these things. All things that really are a scummy. I would have no problem lynching Lotus if there were not others out there who simply look more scummy. If you think something doesn't add up with the Thesp/ABR interaction, explore it. (Given my interaction with ABR, I sort of think the quick escalation is in character, so do not really see anything there, but that is just me.)

[Kreriov]

That said, we have Lotus continuing to be Lotus (read: useless), and actively flaunting the fact that he doesn't think he needs to contribute or defend himself to remain in this game. I think he might be wrong, and I definitely think he should be proven wrong.

This was your latest post. This just sounds like a policy lynch. Your explanation when you voted is much better. As it is you sound like you want to lynch Lotus to prove a point despite what you say about the interaction between ABR and Thesp.

[Kreriov]

Sort of, his failure to contribute and active lurking are scum tells. When you talk about proving a point and his cockiness I feel that you are letting your emotions cloud your reasoning a bit. Doesn't make your reasoning wrong, just that I think you want to believe your reasoning. We have time until the deadline, why don't you leave your vote as is, but look for other scum until then.

As for the ABR/Thesp interaction, I think it is an interaction between a scum and a townie. ABRs reaction was way overboard and uncalled for. While I do not advocate lynching someone just because they are a jerk (or useless or whatever). In this case it really appears that Thesp struck a nerve. ABR reacted poorly. He got called out, again, for his scummy actions.

The hohum vote concerns me as well. He replaces in and that is it?

[Kreriov]

Who is your first, Wulfy? Since it takes fewer votes to lynch at deadline, it might be wise for you to vote that person instead. Lotus will still probably buy it the way things are going.

[Kreriov]

First this:

Ah what the heck, I have not much opinions on anyone what so ever,

Unvote

Vote: Krev

For not posting V/L/A (as far as i can rmb) and lurking, while having spikes in activity.

And now this:

@Ztife - Sorry, you fail at even lurking there Ztife

@Mod:

I will be V/LA for this weekend. Will be back Tues morning.

Check it out
Note the date and time posted. Note when I say I will be back. Note the date and time of this post. Hell, I even bolded the @Mod. Did you really just vote for me for absolutely no reason with less than a week until the deadline? After doing, well, pretty much nothing for the entire game? You have exactly 17 posts to my 29 and you say I am lurking? Really?

Unvote

Vote: Ztife

Whoops, didn't see it. OMGUS? xD

@Ztife - Really? You lurk your ass off and then try to say I am lurking? You say I have spikes in my activity despite posting on almost every singe week day since the game started? You try to get on me for being away exactly the time I said I would be away? You post a vote after specifically saying you have no opinion and then give a clearly incorrect and seemingly contrived reasons for that vote IN THE VERY SAME POST? And now because I see your actions as scummy, its OMAGUS? Have you even bothered to read the thread Ztife?

And now, despite the fact you think Lotus is to obvious to be scum, you are going to vote for him anyway? Really?

Confirm Vote: Ztife

[Kreriov]

Do you ever actually post anything ABR, other than insults?

@Ztife - Yup. Defensive. Right. Way to throw that out there with not support. After I showed how you tried (and failed) to accuse me of lurking. After showing how YOU have been lurking. After basically making a pretty good case against you.

[Kreriov]

Wow, Ztife was my number one target. He was acting almost exactly how he did as scum in the very first game I finished.

[Kreriov]

I have even more suspicions than Skruffs pointed out.

yeah that's odd that scum would NK the main suspect for a lot of you...

what could happen is that scum were either

1) trying to set those with suspicions on him up

or 2) were afraid of ztifes suspicions on them


either way its worth looking into

I really don't like Kreriov's sudden interest in Ztife at the end of yesterday, either, and not just because Ztife flipped town.

Aside from being two of the most vocal about wanting to lynch Lotus, I definitely see a trend in these posts. Look at Exalt's number 2 and Drake's statement about me. He doesn't like my sudden interest in Ztife, but Ztife was the one who showed interest in me first with some weird type of frame job. He votes for me here giving three reasons.

Ah what the heck, I have not much opinions on anyone what so ever,

Unvote

Vote: Krev

For not posting V/L/A (as far as i can rmb) and lurking, while having spikes in activity.

Except, I DID post I would be V/LA.
Given I have the 3rd most posts of anyone, and twice as many as Ztife, explain why he would accuse me of lurking.
As for spikes in activity, well, look at me in ISO. I do not post on weekends, but rarely a week day goes by without me posting. That is hardly spiky activity.

@Drake - I do not know what Ztife was thinking, but if you think my 'sudden' interest in Ztife was unwarranted you are either smoking crack or deliberately slinging mud. Since this follows along with Exalt's 2nd point, well, I just see two scum partners pushing a party line.

I definitely think Exalt's case 1, that Ztife was killed to cast suspicion on those voting for him, is true. Where Exalt gets that Ztife was the main suspect for alot of us (2 of 10 is hardly 'alot'), and since Exalt brought it up...

Vote: Exalt

[Kreriov]

@Drake - you are absolutely right, but that does not negate the case against Exalt, or you for that matter. For one, it is a common practice to bus a scum buddy. Attacking dramonic makes him suspicious but does not take suspicion away from you.

[Kreriov]

I really hate Mondays.
Oh yeah.

Unvote

Two things are pretty clear from the weekend. First, Exalt has not been CCd, so I will assume he is indeed the cop. Second, after reading the Exalt Diaries it seems he really is a drooling idiot. Sad.
For example

He claimed me and drake are scum buddies, because drake was the sole one to really defend me thus far.

No offense Exalt, but I most certainly did not claim this because Drake defended you. I SPECULATED on this because BOTH of you had the same WIFOM ideas about why Ztife was killed and BOTH of you were so insistent on lynching a townie. Now instead of spouting your idiotic 'the town sucks' and 'poor me I am going to be NKd' simply because we do not do exactly as you want, start using your brain.

The problem I have with the ABR soft claim is it can be explained by either a JK or a scum roleblocker. Be as ambiguous as you want ABR, just because you sort of claim a role does not make you town. If anything, soft claiming for no reason is suspicious.

[Kreriov]

When people are keeping their votes on a player who claimed cop, or keep thinking he's suspicious, I don't call that "for no reason".

<Throws bullshit flag> Guess what, you fail at trying to create an excuse ABR. Unless, of course, you simply failed to read the thread?

The only person voting for Exalt right now is dramonic, who said he would be V/LA. Pretty tough for him to take his vote off if he hasn't even read the thread. If you are referring, perhaps, to me, well, I have stated repeatedly that I generally do not have access on the weekends and unvoted as soon as I returned this morning, could see Exalt's claim, and just shake my head at your soft claim.

When you soft claimed, it was barely 5 hours after Exalt had claimed and 5pm EST. On a Saturday. And one person had already unvoted.. I can just feel your tension as you were typing in your soft claim, rushing to save Exalt's from a horrible mislynch that was increasingly unlikely to occur even without your kind intervention.

So your explanation is that you softclaimed to convince people who hadn't even had a chance to see Exalt's claim that the claim was, indeed, valid? Thereby exposing yet another of the towns power roles for absolutely no reason? Or is it to unreasonable to expect you to read the thread and figure out that the people you were apparently trying to convince would be reading your soft claim at the same time they read Exalt's claim?

So, I will ask again, why exactly did you soft claim? This time I will put some teeth into it as well.

Vote: Alfred B. Rampage

[Kreriov]

@ThAdmiral - ABR has already soft claimed or ambiguously claimed or whatever. At this point I do not think it really matters what his exact role might be, its more if you believe him, so my answer would be no.

I do not believe ABR. It is flat stupid for him to have indicated he was a power role, either as town or as scum actually. There are two reasons I think he is scum. First, his explanation as to why he claimed is complete crap. He says he was worried that we would lynch our cop, but as I pointed out before, that's bullshit. The second reason I think he is scum is because he has only claimed a power role and not an actual role. I feel the reason he would do this is because he is unsure what power roles there are in the town. He does not want to be either counter claimed or have to claim a role that is unlikely, i.e. a watcher or tracker role. Now pile on top of this the fact that he is one of the four people who voted for Lotus of whom we are unsure their alignment and I would say I think we have scum.

[Kreriov]

@Exalt - Defense of what? You have yet to make a case against me other than you didn't like that I voted for you. If you cannot see how scummy you looked before the claim, that is your fault, not mine. You say the town are idiots basically because as far as I can see they do not do exactly as you tell them to do. So I am really not sure what to defend against.

Let see, I voted for you because YOU were one of the primary people who pushed for the mislynch on Lotus. Pretty scummy there. Look at your D1 vote history. You placed 7 non-random votes. Of those, 3 were on Lotus. Each time you voted for Lotus that vote was either the 3rd or 4th placed on him at the time. YOU were indeed piling on a wagon. (Hello pot, I am the kettle much?). Scum points for each. After the lynch, the first thing that happens is you start up a weak WIFOM argument about the Ztife lynch. More scum points. Your point number 2 basically says Ztife was lynched because of who he suspected, which means me and possibly ThAdmiral or Wulfy. I have no need or want to defend those 2, but me? Ztife's bogus case was the single scummiest thing I can point to on D1. I do not know why he would lie and mischaracterize like he did, but whatever. Your supporting and accepting that case garners yet more scum points. You mischaracterizing a reply to Drake as me attacking him (listing him as your scumbuddy) for defending you and as trying to line up lynches. (I listed you two as possible scumbuddies because you were the two that pushed a bad mislynch that was based and your own selfishness.) Guess what, even more scum points for you. To support your weak WIFOM argument you make an additional mischaracterization that 'a lot' of people were suspicious of ztife. Gee, another scum point. So, at what point am I piling on a wagon and at what point am I voting for someone (YOU) who had built up enough scum points for me to decide you were scum?

I call you a drooling idiot because you have to be much smarter than you are being. You have nothing but guesses and lies and innuendo and you push cases because you are not happy with someone, not because there is an actual case. You whine about how bad the town is because they are not doing exactly what you want and you panic even after claiming, which I guess does match your poor me attitude. Grow up.

Add to this the fact that you had completely ignored actual facts. There are 4 people left on the Lotus lynch who are unknowns. I guarantee at least one is scum. I would say two, but Lotus foolishly voting for himself makes it only likely that there are two in that pool, not certain. And yet you still vote for someone simply because you do not like them. Good job Exalt. Get your head out of your ass, stop throwing tantrums, and start looking at facts. You are suffering from Confrimation Bias. You pushed a mislynch because of this and now you are falling into the same trap.

@Drake - No, I do not think we would have gone and lynched Exalt anyway. Like I said to Exalt, look at the facts. When ABR claimed, one person had already removed their vote. ABR has a choice, he can merely unvote or he can do what he did and soft claim. Let's assume ABR is not scum. Lets even further assume that at this point ABR thinks neither me or Dramonic are scum. That means by claiming instead of merely unvoting, he thinks there are 4 scum in this game. He must further think that all 4 would be so foolish as to vote for Exalt after he claimed and with no counter claim as cover. Unless you really think that a townie would vote Exalt after he claims with no counter claim and no discussion? So again, ABR claiming was not a smart move.

Of course, he might be smarter than it seems because he didn't really claim. He soft claimed. He didn't say he was a Jailkeeper or a Watcher or a Tracker. No, he left it open and now YOU have filled in the details. YOU (and Exalt) are now making excuses for ABR. YOU say he might be a watcher. He can now continue to feed into your expectations. Maybe his nickname should really be John Edwards.

[Kreriov]

@Exalt - DEFEND MYSELF AGAINST WHAT! Relate your case and I might actually understand what the hell you are talking about! The ONE thing I can find that is not you ranting about how I am not defending myself is that you do not like that I voted for you. When I list all the reasons for which I voted for you, IT IS NOT AN ATTACK ON YOU, it is a defense of WHY I voted for you BEFORE you claimed. Is that not what you are asking for, dumbass? Is that not the very defense you accuse me of not doing? Do you understand the difference? I am certainly not advocating anyone vote for you or implying in any way that you are scum now. You do realize this, do you not?

And yes, I do think you are an idiot. This is from the same post.

]Hohum - 0
Lotus 7 - Drake, Exalt,

wulfy

, ztife, JamesBond, Lotus, Albert B Rampage
Drake - 0
JamesBond - 0
Exalt 0 -
Skruffs - 0
Wulfy 1 - hohum
Ztife 2 - Skruffs, Kreriov,
Kreriov 0 -
ThAdmiral - 1 dramonic
Albert - 0
dramonic - 0

PM me if there are any clerical errors.

Not Voting

ThAdmiral

12 alive, 7 votes needed to lynch, deadline in 11 hours, when it will be 4 votes needed to lynch.

Lotus (Townie) is strung up

Please send night choices to me by PM, before midday (GMT +1) on Friday.

Remember, the 4 players not voting Lotus in ThAdmiral,

Wulfy

, Kreriov, and dramonic are the 4 players that tried to quicklynch

Again, I think you are an idiot not scum. And just because Starkmoon had you listed second does not mean that when the vote was placed it was the second. I try to keep running track of every vote caste and in what place that vote was cast. You voted for Lotus three separate times. The first time you voted, it was the 3rd vote placed on him. The second time you voted for him, it was the 4th. The last time you voted for him, it was the 3rd vote on him. Go back through the thread and verify it if you want. Someone may have unvoted or Starkmoon might have listed you second in her post because of editing, BUT IT WAS THE 3rd VOTE PLACED ON HIM AT THE TIME.

The problem is, I can point out your errors all day long and it means nothing unless I think you are doing it deliberately. (I do not.) For whatever reason, you fail to understand that pointing out your errors is not me thinking you are scummy or trying to make you look scummy. I pointed out all the reasons I thought you were scummy BEFORE you claimed and for some reason you feel the need to dispute them. Why? They no longer matter/ You claimed and now they are not accusations against you but me showing why I thought you scummy and voted for you, EXACTLY AS YOU REQUESTED.

You claimed, I believe you. Now you can either accept that I found you scummy and voted for you or continue your decent into imbecility.

@Everyone else - Not sure what to say to this. I think Exalt is the cop. I do not know why he refuses to acknowledge that I tried to answer the one question/accusation he had. I would rather concentrate on something actually meaningful, however. So here is my case against ABR in a nutshell.

He hammered Lotus.
He claimed when he did not need to.
He soft claimed.

[Kreriov]

@Dramonic - yes, but who and why.

[Kreriov]

@Exalt - Again, when I say you are an idiot, its not meant to imply you are scum or that I am challenging your claim. Since I am in the category covered by the following statement, I will consider this something I should 'defend' against.

I am more suspicious of those who did not vote lotus over those who did. Far more suspicious.

So let me get this straight, anyone who DID NOT VOTE to lynch a TOWNIE, must be scum. Are you kidding me? Did you really just say that? Ok, here is my defense and it is the same, exact thing I said BEFORE Lotus was lynched when it was not for defense. I was not sure he was scum.

You might be dazzled by the brilliance of your arguments, but look at them really. They basically consisted of you and Drake hammering away at Lotus for 'being anti-town'. Then, when he did not try to prove a negative, it was you and Drake screaming that he is not defending himself therefor he must be scum. (Hmm, sounds familiar and even less true this time around.) And now anyone who does not agree that you are just so brilliant for LYNCHING A TOWNIE that we must be scum. There is just as much reason for scum to be on the lynch as off it.

I can think of a bunch of reasons for ABR to want to hammer. First and foremost, its pretty obvious you are so self-centered that flattery, or in this case votes the way you (and Drake) want them, go a long way to putting someone in your good graces. I do not care about getting in your good graces, obviously. Scum might be, especially now that they know you are the cop. ABR did not know this when he hammered, but it was pretty obvious by then that anyone who does not agree with you is suspicious to you. I can think of other reasons to be in, and specifically the hammer, on a mislynch. If you think about it, maybe you can too if you could be bothered.

It doesn't matter though. I am more concerned about actions. The fact is ABR hammered a townie. We can talk all day about why or why wouldn't it would be good or bad for scum to do so. He chose to take an action that he probably did not have to take, so there has to be a reason. Townie's do not need to appear more town, so as a townie, why do it? That is why I have judged it a scummy action. You judge it how you will. The fact is ABR not only claimed when he didn't need to, but he only ambiguously claimed, both scummy actions. Finally, ABR then gave a bogus reason for claiming. Scummy action on top of scummy action.

@Drake - There is also a very good reason for ABR to soft claim and that is he can appear to be townie and specifically a power role without actually having to work for it. Look at the results. Had ABR come right out and said 'I am the JK and I blocked Exalt last night because he pushed a mislynch', I would probably have believed him. I mean, why soft claim at all? Because he doesn't want to expose another power role? Because scum knowing he is a power role but not the specific one makes him less of a target? Really?!?! Does it matter if he is actually a JK or some other type of role that can roleblock? (Or track or watch?) On the flip side, I can think of a very good reason to specifically not fully claim and this is so he does not get counter claimed. A mafia roleblocker who can verify his ability to roleblock can easily claim JK AS LONG AS HE KNOWS THERE IS NOT AN ACTUAL JK in the game. I literally just finished a game in which I was a mafia roleblocker, so I certainly know the drill.

[Kreriov]

@Drake - Really? Point out where I am wrong or obtuse. First, can YOU figure out Exalt's case? The one point he has ever explicitly stated, that I voted for him, I have answered and that in the very first post after the accusation. I found him scummy and immediately removed my vote from him when I saw his claim. The case against ABR you can try to imply is WIFOMy, but you would be lying. These are the facts.

ABR hammered Lotus when he had no real reason to do so, as you pointed out.
ABR claimed when there was no reason to do so. (And several reasons not to.)
ABR soft claimed rather than fully claimed.
ABRs explanations for both claiming and soft claiming are bogus.

Those are facts. What is WIFOM about any of that or are you just using a term you know will be prejudicial?

Let me ask you this, why do you think ABR and Wulfy, the other two voting for me, have shown no inclination to state THEIR cases either?

[Kreriov]

@Dramonic - Huh? ABR has not been softclaiming? Quote me where he named his role. I can certainly quote you where he deliberately soft claimed, here:

I can be one of many roles...I'm not saying which one. All you need to know is that I have strong reasons to think that Exalt was role-blocked. I will leave this purposely ambiguous.

Never has ABR claimed he tracked me.
Never has ABR claimed he saw me visit Exalt.

You state you do not see a specific case against me. That is the entire problem.

I will make you a deal. IF ABR claims either of these two things, that he tracked me to Exalt or that he watched me visit Exalt, I will immediately stop posting until a lynch is decided.

Oh, and for the record, your statement here

Which one, I can’t say, but I doubt anyone would be this convinced of scum without a proper case (and I don’t see a proper case against Kreriov, no offense.)

is the very definition of WIFOM

[Kreriov]

No, it is not bad. Look at it. IF ABR claims he either tracked me or watched Exalt and saw me visit Exalt, that would prove one of your hypotheses, correct? What is my defense, to say ABR is lying? Great, I can shout that all I want, but it proves nothing. The only proof would be to lynch either me or ABR to prove who is lying. I am ok with that idea. That is exactly the reason ABR only soft claimed. He can sit back and imply, insinuate, change his story, whatever, until he is absolutely forced to claim. And then he can fit his claim to whatever circumstances exist at that time.

It does not matter if you take my deal or not, that is exactly what I am going to do.

If ABR claims he tracked me, I will immediately stop posting until this day ends.
If ABR claims he watched Exalt and saw me visit Exalt, I will immediately stop posting until this day ends.

I say and do this to specifically refute your hypotheses and give ABR the opportunity to have me lynched by simply 'proving' either of your first two hypotheses.

You see, now ABR is in a bind. He can claim either of those things and put his veracity and your hypotheses to the test, a test he will lose. Therefor, he will not.

At some point, ABR will be forced to fully claim, but not by me. I already think he is scum and any claim at this point is a lie. When he does finally claim, he will say one of three things (or some variant of one).

He will say he tracked someone else other than me.
He will say he watched someone else visit Exalt, but not me.
He will say he is a role blocker and he blocked Exalt for whatever reason.

I say it again, ABR. Defend yourself.

You hammered when there was no reason to do so.
You claimed a power role when there was no reason to do so.
You soft claimed rather than fully claiming.
Your explanation for claiming and doing it ambiguously are bogus.

[Kreriov]

@dramonic - It is not like its an either or situation. I have stated my case against ABR, you do not have to agree with it or vote for ABR. You are also not required or expected to vote for me.

Why would you vote for me when you clearly acknowledge there is no case against me?

Why would you not press for a case to actually be stated and built, or at the very least pressure ABR to actually say he tracked or watched me as you suspect but ABR has not even implied? (All he said was he knows Exalt was blocked.)

Especially when we are not up against any deadlines?

@Wulfy - I would ask the same questions of you.

@Everyone else - I just bring these questions I have asked to your attention so that all of you, individually, can pass judgement on why they have not or are not being answered.

[Kreriov]

Really. At least make a case. Anti-town because I want you to, oh, I don't know, actually make a case? Anti-town because I have actually made case and expressed my thoughts? Are you really going to lynch someone because 'you have an anti-town attitude' and not support that statement? That has got to be one of the single most scummy statements I have ever heard.

[Kreriov]

Hey, playing the odds is fine. Just MAKE A CASE. Is there a reason you do not want ABR to actually defend himself? Or actually make a case against me? The same with Exalt?

Think about it. All you have to do is say I will not vote for Kreriov until ABR says 'I tracked Kreriov', 'I watched Exalt and saw Kreriov visit him', or one of the three things I predict he will say. It takes one post to unvote and tell ABR to answer me. Is there ANY harm in doing that? And if ABR refuse to do that, will that not raise some questions in your mind as to why not?

[Kreriov]

Ah, a lie from ABR. Nope. I do not care what you say your role is. What you eventually claim your role to be has nothing to do with my case against you. As a matter of fact, that is sort of the point. It DOES have something to do with what

dramonic

has postulated. If he wants you to actually claim instead of continuing your scummy behavoir, that is his business. I find his unwillingness to actually try to follow up on his own logic curious and am questioning him on that fact. Nice try scum.

[Kreriov]

Oh, and you have still not even attempted to answer address this following.

ABR hammered for not reason.
ABR claimed for no reason.
ABR soft claimed instead of fully claiming.
ABRs brief explanations are bogus.
I will also add that ABR is voting for someone without ever establishing a case.

[Kreriov]

Dramonic, the flaw in your logic is that ABR has not claimed ANYTING. He could be a tracker, a watcher, a roleblocker himself (either town or scum aligned), or simply scum. (As scum, he would certainly know who a scum roleblocker actually blocked.) Do you see the holes in your logic? And frankly, no one is even suggesting we lynch Exalt, particularly me. So again, why not take the time to actually try and get answers? Lynching me will only reveal one thing, my town alignment. NOT forcing people to actually state their case is scummy. ABR does not need to actually claim to state a case, does he? Neither he, Exalt, Wulfy, or you, for that matter, have actually stated a case. All you have said is if I flip town you will vote for ABR. Why?

[Kreriov]

Oh so nice of you to provide ABRs defense for him dramonic. Why would you do that? The whole point of having ABR do it is to catch him in a lie.

I will answer things you actually posted for yourself first. First, YOU are making this lynch me or lynch ABR, not I. Lynching me tells you nothing about ABR other than that he voted to lynch yet another townie because YOU ARE NOT FORCING HIM TO DEFEND HIMSELF. Point out to me where ABR has said he tracked me or watched Exalt and saw me. You can't because he hasn't. Until he does, how can you support your premise that if I flip town, ABR must be scum? Again, you cannot. Second, I have claimed. I have stated repeatedly 'when I flip townie'. What part of that is not clear? Will me falsely claiming a power role make my words more or less truthful? Finally, am I correct in stating that when I flip town, you will immediately assume that both Exalt and ABR are scum? Why? Does my flipping town make my case better or worse simply because you will then actually know I am town?

Ok, your defense of ABR.

1 - You say you would have hammered as well. You are putting words in ABRs mouth, but lets say you are correct. First, him hammering ended that day early by what, one real day, if that? Pretty stupid reason to hammer, especially when Lotus was going to get lynched at the deadling anyway. So why bother? Its anti-town big time.

2 - You say he claimed to protect Exalt. What complete and utter bullshit. ABR claimed about 5 hours after Exalt had claimed. One person had already unvoted because of the claim, ABR clearly was not going to vote Exalt and could have said just that instead of claiming, and both Exalt and Drake were certainly not going to suddenly vote for Exalt. It is blindingly obvious Exalt was not going to be lynched, but rather than wait and give the opportunity for everyone else to weigh in, ABR claims, exposing yet another power role for a potential NK. You say you have not played here, but ABR has, so maybe you do not understand this point. There was no way Exalt was going to be lynched without a counter claim. If there was ever a counter claim to Exalt, ABR could have claimed then and he know it.

3 - Soft claiming means he cannot be counter claimed. EXACTLY MY POINT. He can say whatever he wants, claim whatever he wants. He keeps saying he is dead to a NK tonight anyway, so why NOT get this theoretical scum counter-claim out there.

4 - I think I pointed out in 2 and 3 why his explanations are bogus. Exalt needed no protection. Abiguously claiming only makes you a target with no upside of potentially having a scum try to counter-claim. Ambiguously claiming as scum, however, means a REAL power role also cannot counter-claim you without becoming a target.

5 - Lynching me and believing Exalt are in no way connect. I am not nor have I been disputing Exalt's claim. In fact, YOU are the only one doing so. YOU are the one who keeps saying if I am town, then ABR and Exalt are scum. Oh wait, or at least one of them is.

Which one though? And who else? You try to cut off discussion, defend ABR rather than have him defend himself, and do not even make a case against me other than to say either me or ABR has to be scum. Why? (This is directed at you as well Exalt.) What is so hard about actually relating your case? And I mean in concrete terms, not some vague 'you have an anti-town attitude'. Why try to make this an ABR or Kreriov scenario? There is no reason for it. We are not close to a deadline.

[Kreriov]

Ah, feeling the heat there ABR? I wish I could in good concious make this lynch me or lynch you. I think my case against you is very strong and like you I am certainly willing to say that if you flip town I would gladly offer myself for a lynch the next day. The problem is me flipping town that proves nothing. You seem to be under the misapprehension that I am upset or am not enjoying myself. Well, it is frustrating to see people clearly not use logic, but believe me, I can and will take tremdous satisfaction in saying 'I told you so'.

[Kreriov]

On the way to the airport just now, I had an idea. I hope it helps clear some things up. I am going to up my offer to not post any more. I am going to ask ABR a question that does not require him to reveal his role. If he answers yes, I will immediately stop posting until someone, presumably me, is lynched. If he refuses to answer, well, failure to answer a reasonable, legitimate question that does not reveal his role is anti-town, scummy, and pretty much exactly the beef Drake and Exalt had with Lotus. If he answers no, we are almost back to square one except that it complete destroys dramonics already shaky logic, so here goes.

ABR, can you prove I role blocked Exalt?

[Kreriov]

Exalt is not scum nor have I ever challenged his claim. Ever. Not once.

James Bond implying that Exalt is scum if I am town is completely false and has no basis in fact. I challenge you to back that statement up James. (The same is true for ABR, actually. I do not know how this ABR/Exalt/Kreriov triangle got started, but I am noticing the theme.)

Once Exalt claimed, I have not nor will I attack Exalt. The ONLY gripe I have against Exalt is that he refuses to actually make a case against me. Trying to imply Exalt must be scum if I am town is scummy in and of itself.

@dramonic - What do you think of your case now? ABR has definitively said he has no proof that I role blocked Exalt, the cornerstone of your case that, as is now proven, was complete speculation and false.

[Kreriov]

Oh, and I will ask a similar question of James I have asked others. Why must it be a choice between me and ABR or me, ABR, and Exalt? If you are unsure, why are you not making a case against someone else? There is certainly fodder out there. I could easily make a decent case against you come to think of it.

[Kreriov]

@Dramonic - Huh? Your theory still stands how? Here is YOUR theory.

ABR hasn’t actually been ‘soft-claiming’, this screams

watcher or tracker

. Which one, I can’t say, but I doubt anyone would be this

convinced of scum without a proper case (and I don’t see a proper case against Kreriov, no offense.)

This means an interaction happened between Exalt and Kreriov, and if Exalt has made a true claim (which I am starting to believe) then Kreriov has to be roleblocker. Considering Kreriov didn’t mention anything about Exalt being scummy before day 2, I don’t think as a town roleblocker he’d target him. Mafia Roleblocker, I say.

From this, we can develop three hypothesis :

1-ABR is tracker and tracked Kreriov last night, effectively seeing him perform his roleeblock on Exalt.
2-ABR is watcher and saw Exalt be visited by Kreriov.

3-ABR and Exalt are scum buddies and this is all a bunch of hogwash.

I believe from this we can lynch Kreriov for now, see what comes from it and react accordingly.

Vote : Kreriov

…was that WIFOM? I don’t think it was…

Note the bolded parts. ABR just said NO he has NO PROOF I role blocked Exalt. BY YOUR OWN LOGIC, 3 must be true.

[Kreriov]

I am very much aware I am at L-1. Your point? That 2 town are voting for me?

[Kreriov]

@dramonic - Ah, I see. You are saying ABR was saying No, he would not answer. If so, why are you not pressing him to say yes or no to the question? Failing to unquestionably verify or disprove your theory when there is no reason not to is tatamount to hanging an 'I am scum' sign around your neck. You KNOW Drake has you in his sights and this is just giving him ammo.

Maybe this question is a bit better. It also does not require ABR to reveal his supposed role, so I do not see what the problem would be in answering it. And again, I will immediately stop posting should ABR answer yes.

@ABR - Did you either track me to Exalt or watch Exalt and see me visit?

[Kreriov]

You don't have ANY case against me. I am not saying you I wouldn't have a problem if you made a case and voted it, but at least I could understand it. The fact is the only case anyone has made against me is dramonic. And his basically is there is no case against me but since he believes ABR and he believe that ABR has some knowledge of me that ABR will not relate, that I must be guilty of something.

All I say is make a case. Make a case, back it up, and vote. Not doing so is anti-town. Voting without a case is anti-town. You should never, ever be afraid to state your case as town. Scum are the only people in the game who have to lie. THAT is why ABR does not want to either fully claim or unambiguously answer questions. He knows that when I ask him if he tracked me to Exalt or if he watched Exalt and saw me visit if he answers yes it will be a lie. He cannot prove I role blocked Exalt for the simple reason that I did not. He is now also afraid to say no because that destroys dramonic's foolish logic and would be looked on negatively. (Not sure why. Truthfully saying that he neither tracked me to Exalt or watched Exalt and saw me visit is just that, a truthful statement and should be looked at positively. Its his unwillingness to be truthful and helpful from the start that are suspicious.)

[Kreriov]

Well, at least you could go on record as what you find scummy about ABR and me. Voting just to be voting is rather anti-town. And yes, I am trying to pin you down. That is sort of the point. If the town does not force people to actually state their thoughts and back up their decisions, how can you ever decide who might be scum or not? Gut feeling? Mob rule? You voted for Lotus. Why? You have been lurking your ass off the whole game. You replace in, barely say a word, and lynch a townie. Same thing here. You go on a business trip, come back and promise to catch up, then barely post anything and vote with absolutely no support for your vote other than 'I find ABR less scummy'. Why? You don't HAVE to vote for anyone. If you have nothing to go on, why vote at all when there is no deadline imposed and you apparently have no real reason to? It is anti-town and suspicious.

[Kreriov]

If you are talking to me, no. I am just usually not available on weekends. I picked someone up from the airport last night if that is what you are refering to.

[Kreriov]

So, just to be clear, your entire reason for voting me is because you got a bad feeling when I took Exalt to task? Do you want to just walk up to the platform or actually put the noose around your neck too?

[Kreriov]

Oh, and as I read a bit closer, you ADMIT voting Lotus to just vote? He was going to be lynched anyway, so you decided, what the hell, Ill vote? I guess you DO want to put that noose around your neck as well. Lotus defended himself a bit early on, but after awhile, the constant mantra of Exalt and Drake shouting 'defend yourself' but not providing any evidence against which to defend must have been rather frustrating. You took advantage of the slowness and the deadline and cast a decided scum vote..

Well, I think I have now done my job. Only reason I have been arguing so much is to get all 3 scum to actually provide the evidence. I must admit, I am a bit surprised it was not Wulfy, but with that sig block, I was hoping he wasn't scum anyway.

For the record, the scum are ABR, dramonic, and James Bond. Someone please hammer and verify everything I have said. Do not fall for the trap JB and dramonic have tried to set up of tieing ABR and Exalt together. ABR is the one riding Exalts claim train. Do not let dramonic weasel out of voting to lynch ABR. I am helping right now by pointing out he definitely says ABR must be scum if I am town. Do not allow him any excuses. I have already made the case against ABR. I will leave it to the rest of you to formalize it against dramonic and James Bond. ?Good luck.

[Kreriov]

I already said it. ABR, dramonic, and James Bond.

I am not repeating my case against ABR yet again.

dramonic has dramatically aided and abetted ABR in his avoidance of any appearance of actually getting pinned down. dramonic feeble case is completely shot and yet, he still pushes it. Hell, dramonic even SAYS there is no case against me and yet he still votes me. Hmm. He has consistently linked you and ABR saying if I am not scum, you two are. He only backed off on that when I challenged him on it.

Finally we have James Bond. He has admitted voting 'just because'. His entire reason for voting me seems to be he has nothing better to do. Look at my other posts about James Bond. I am done doing your work for you.

Oh, and just so you don't think I have changed my opinion of you, your an idiot. My flipping town does not make my case any stronger or weaker. It doesn't make my logic any beter or worse. All it does is mean that what I have said is the truth as far as I understand it. YOUR failure to make cases. YOUR failure to pin down people like ABR and dramonic mean that you will be lynching a townie only to have to do it tommorrow. Its simple, before lynching me, require ABR to unequivocally say he tracked me to you or that he watched you and saw me visit you. He cannot say yes because that will be a lie that will exposed. The same with dramonic. Rather than actually verify that ABR tracked me or watched you and saw me visit, he keeps comming up with reasons to not actually very it. Why? Because I have put him in the position that he must now follow his hypotheses. dramonic's hypotheses are as follows: 1- ABR tracked me to you. 2 - ABR watched me visit you. 3 - you and ABR are scumbuddies. Well, guess what, ABR did not do either 1 or 2, and you are not scum. Why would dramonic do this and not actually try to verify 1 or 2? His exuses are weak and his reasoning isn't even close to be correct. (Aside from the fact that ABR could very well verify you were role blocked by ABR himself, there are HUGE holes in dramonic's logic.) Anyway, YOUR failure to make a case against me. YOUR failure to actually use logic. YOUR overreaction to me explaining why I voted for you before you claimed have braught us to this situation. This is the very last post of substance I will make. I will only post to vote and to not get prodded. It is now up to you and the rest of the town to follow up. I have handed you the three scum in this game on a silver platter. ABR, dramonic, and James Bond. Good luck. I think you will need it.

[Kreriov]

Here is a daily post to make sure I do not get prodded. I take great pleasure in pointing out to Exalt that you are wrong once again. Sajin (hohum, indenterdjinn) was not voting for Lotus and he did not vote for you either. Maybe if you atually payed attention to detail and actually read what people were saying (make a case, don't scream 'defend yourself' when there is nothing to defend against because you have not made a case, actually pay attention to who was voting for you, actually realize that you voted in 3rd, 4th, and 3rd position on Lotus) you wouldn't need to make 6 posts crying in your beer about how you are about to be lynched and how sucky the town is because they are not doing exactly as you say they should. Use your brain. That FACT is that on D1 99% of the time there is 1 scum on the lynch and 75% of the time there are 2. Is it your ego that does not allow you look at ABR and James Bond? Is it so impossible for you to admit how scummy you looked that you insist that no scum could be voting for Lotus? And if people voting for you are scummy, is there a reason you do not suspect dramonic?

Exalt, you are an imbicil.

[Kreriov]

Hey all. This is my daily check in to see if Exalt is still an idiot. Guess what, HE IS!

Make a case Exalt. Make a case. Given the town players, I think you will be happy to know they will not be stupid enough to lynch you after me if I should be lynched. Just because you are an idiot with some of the worst logic I have ever seen doesn't make you scum, sadly. I think the rest of the town understands this fact.

You have some of the worst play as well. Here is a short list.

You lynched Lotus. Bad play because your real reason for doing so was he pissed you off.
You refuse to understand that taking an action (ie voting) that does not affect an outcome one way or another is taken to accomplish some other goal.
You want to lynch me. Bad play because your real reason for doing so is I pissed you off.
You refuse to make any sort of case. Great move as scum, not so as town. Given you are town...
You are so blinded by your emotions you refuse to question anyone who is supporting you. Anyone who disagrees with you must be scum. Guess what sport, not true.
You refuse to hold people as responsible for their actions. We have gone through, what, 10 pages of me saying ABR is lying and all you do is attack me. You can attack me all you want, but you DO NOT let someone get away with making provable accusations without verifying them. Good job Drake on finally doing this, now think about what it means.
You can't even get your facts straight and don't seem to care if you are correct or not and still use these incorrect facts to say someone is scummy.

I already spent way to much time writting this, so I will stop there and leave you with a final thought for the day, Exalt.

You go sport. Keep playing that 'I am going to be NKd' card when pretty much everyone is sitting back wondering why you think a doc or a jailkeeper will not protect you. I guarantee we have one or the other. If you were roleblocked by a town jailkeeper last night, he can do it again and protect you. If you were blocked by a mafia roleblocker, then there is certainly a town doc or jailkeeper to protect you. So buck up little camper and stop feeling sorry for yourself. The only person who has played really badly this game is you.

[Kreriov]

Hey all, doing my morning check in and all I can say is wow. Exalt, can you be any more pathetic?
I love this:

Oh, and with all this talk about no cases on kreriov... there isn't much of a case against ABR either.

My case against kreriov is far stronger then ABR admitting he was fakeclaiming.

One more thing that I would like to point out, shit ill even cap and bold it for you.

NOT A SINGLE ONE OF YOU HAVE SCUM HUNTED AT ALL. NONE OF YOU HAVE BUILT STRONG CASES VS ANYONE, AND ALL OF YOU HAVE JUMPED ON BANDWAGONS.

And this:

I have made cases against you since day 1, but I know you will refuse to acknowledge that fact. I tried to investigate you last night, but got roleblocked. I make more cases today, but no they are not the strongest int he world. They are, however, far stronger then any case anyone has made on any other player in the entire game. None of you have made any cases against anyone, just jumped on wagons. You, in fact kreriov, have made no cases at all vs anyone. YOu attack me, who you say is a townie. Good play there. You sure are doing your part to help town win. Yes, I must be the worst player in the game, since I attack scum, and you attack people you think are town. Awesome.

If you have such a great case, LIST IT. Or is asking you to actually list it in a decent form that can be discussed easily attacking you? You keep saying you have made a case. Fine, LIST IT.

I find it absolutely hilarious that Exalt cannot even acknowledge that I have not once ever disputed his cop claim. Check it out.

Kreriov, if you believe I am the real cop, then why do you focus all your attention on attacking and discrediting me? Why not focus your attention on mafia?

Drake implies he has doubt, others imply doubt.

I have not once doubted Exalt's cop claim.

Not once. HUH? How does that happen? I just don't get it. You claimed, I believed you and the first action I take is to unvote. I have not deviated from that position, so how am I continually attacking you? Saying your logic about ME is non existent or that your assumptions are flawed or pointing out factual errors you have made is NOT attacking you. So please explain.

And, of course, we have ABR.

I particularly love this little exchange:

O.K. fine, I lied about confirming Exalt because I wanted to mess with the scum night-kills.

So why are you so sure about kreriov then?

Since day 1 he never left my scumlist.

What? REALLY? That is your entire reason? Not, Kreriov DID NOT vote for a mislynch but I did? Not, Kreriov has made one hell of a case against me because I lied, needlessly hammered on a mislynch and acted scummy but I am really a townie so he must be scum? Not, Kreriov actually makes cases and lists them, but I feel no need, so he must be scum? Just, oh, he was on my scumlist? Wow, great evidence there ABR!

ABR, you flat lied and got caught. Scum.
ABR, you hammered Lotus, a townie, for absolutely no reason. Scum
ABR, you FALSELY claimed and now you say its was to supposedly draw a NK from our cop? A NK that is not going to happen anyway due to doc protection? Scum.
ABR, you deliberately refused to acknowledge that you had no evidence whatsoever against me and allowed a false case to proceed. Scum.
You continue to vote and fail to make a case. Scum.

it doesn't matter what you did in other games. Your actions here are scummy as hell.

What is your goal now, ABR? To protect your scumbuddies? I have named the 3 scum - ABR, dramonic, and James Bond. Are you just being obtuse to try and make people forget? Hoping the day drags on so people forget? Ah well, enough for today. I will post again tomorrow morning. Exalt is right about one thing. Wulfy and Scruffs, you two have to make a decision. Lynching me is actually just fine. It will prove my innocence and make is clear exactly how ABR has lied and how dramonic and James Bond have supported him.

[Kreriov]

@dramonic - It is not that you supposedly bought the RB/Track/Watch act. It is that you completely refused to try and verify it. Even when I showed you how to determine if ABR had the evidence YOU claimed he had without revealing any role information, which you said you wanted to avoid, you refused to do so. The ONLY reason to not do so was because you knew that ABR was lying. You should have bussed your partner when you had the chance.

[Kreriov]

@dramonic - how very non-committal of you. Way to completely not take responsibility for your actions, scum. You have just basically just told Scruffs and Wulfy that they can get ABR lynched with their vote.

[Kreriov]

@Skruffs - I think you are confused. Reread my post. I fully realize neither you or Wulfy are voting. I certainly do not think either of you are scum. ABR has 4 votes on him incuding me. I WANT ABR lynched. He is scum. Its great his meta says he acts scummy, but does that absolve him? No, if anything, if it looks like scum and acts like scum, it probably is scum.

Now, dramonic has promised to hammer either me or ABR when given the opportunity but is trying to weasel out of actually making a case. I am making him take responsibility for that promised action. dramonic is scum and wishes to be absolved of the responsibility for hammerng either me or ABR. He keeps saying he cannot make a decision, well, he damn sure needs to make one now.

I WANT ABR to be lynched. Of course I will not unvote.

I do not think either you or Wulfy are scum. I have certainly never claimed such. I have clearly stated that I think the scum are ABR, dramonic, and James Bond and have made my case for each.

[Kreriov]

@dramonic - Um, pointing out that before claiming, the cop looked scummy in direct defense of an accusation against me is bitchy? Pointing out that Exalt's whining and crying, failures in logic, failures to get facts straight, and falling into a logical fallacy (Correlation Implies Causation) is bitchy? Supporting the cop claim completely with no reservations is bitchy? Well, define it as bitchy then. The problem you now have is bitchy != scummy. Sorry, try again.

[Kreriov]

@dramonic - great, so we agree I am not scummy. Are you going to vote for ABR now?

[Kreriov]

@dramonic - Thank you for once again showing your scumminess. So, even though you do not find me scummy, you will hammer me simply to end the day?

[Kreriov]

@dramonic - I know ABR is closer. Did you miss the part where I am just adding more scum points to you? You say you will hammer me if given the chance. I just wonder why you would hammer someone whom you agree is not scummy and so should everyone else.

@ABR - It is quite literally impossible for me to have tunnel-visioned on you when I have made cases against both dramonic and James Bond. Care to try again?

[Kreriov]

@ABR - What intelligent discussion? Your refusal to make a case against me? Discussion of your lies that lead to that refusal? Discussion of why, when all you had to do is say you had no evidence against me whatsoever even when it would not require you to admit you were fake claiming, you would not do so? What discussion would you like to have?

[Kreriov]

@ABR - and all you ever had to do to destroy dramonic's case is say you never tracked me. You never did.

[Kreriov]

Wow. I was checking my other games and saw D3 had started..

I guess the biggest question I have is who is the second killer - Vig, SK, a second scum group?

Whatever the answer, I already made a case for 3 scum. The best case after ABRs is for dramonic, so even if there were only 2 scum and an sk or even 2 scum groups (unlikely), I see no reason to wait.

Vote: dramonic

[Kreriov]

I have already been thinking about the questions you have raised James. As for only one kill on N1, that just makes sense. A smart Vig (or SK that can forgo his NK) would normally not try a kill on N1 or, as you said, Ztife could have been targeted twice. This does not preclude Exalt being roleblocked, but in fact makes sense. (Without really going into it right now, I believe there are 3 mafia, one of which is a roleblocker, and a vig not an SK. That is only strong conjecture right now.) Knowing if Exalt was blocked or able to investigate as well as investigation results will definitely help.

[Kreriov]

Ok, I love how dramonic completely ignores the case against him. The hammering ABR thing is a mild scum tell. Mainly because he explicitely tried to divorce himself from any real responsibility. He basically said I can't make a decision so I will let the town make it for me. CLASSIC scum right there. But that is not the main case against him.

The main case against him is that he was voting for me without any proof whatsoever against me and that he was unwilling to actually try and get that proof. His case, in short, against me was THAT THERE WAS NO CASE! I quoted him saying that at least once. His case was basically that he believed ABR! No shit, go look. He said there was no case against me, but ABR was insistent I was scum, so ABR must have something on me. He speculated that ABR was a tracker or a watcher and had dirt on me. When I constantly and repeatedly pressed dramonic to assist me in trying to get ABR to commit to a position, either that ABR did or did not have evidence against me, dramonic refused. Every time I countered his excuses for not pressing ABR, such as not wanting to out a power role, I countered those arguments and STILL dramonic refused. Its simple, really. dramonic continually tried to make the lynch be between me and ABR. That's fine, but in order to justify lynching ABR after lynching me, does it not make sense to force ABR to commit to a position that can then be shown to be a lie? As it turns out, ABR was forced to admit he was lying scum, but not through any action of dramonics. In fact, every attempt to try and show ABR was lying or to get him to commit to a position was actively thwarted or ignored by dramonic. Sure looks like scum to me.

We can speculate about vig/sk all day. Basically the remaining set up is either 5/2 if its a vig or one of 5/1/1 or 4/2/1 if its an SK. It is VERY unlikely that it is 4/2/1. But it really does not matter. In all cases it is to the advantage of the town to lynch scum or SK. dramonic is scum. It is also to the towns advantage if the vig does not kill tonight.

[Kreriov]

Ah, the lies continue. I explicitely was trying to make sure ABR DID NOT have to claim. Saying he had evidence against me or not was all I was trying to get him to say, but you would not do it. Why not? Your entire case against me was some supposed evidence that ABR had. Even when ABR admitted to lying, you were still going to hammer me because.... you had no case? I have yet to hear a good explanation as to why you would even consider hammering much less voting someone against whom you admitedly had no case and have made no attempt to make a case. Scum on top of scum actions there dramonic.

I am not sure what Exalt's claim has to do with anything at all. Of everyone here, I have been the single most steadfast supporter of that claim. Why you keep talking about Exalt's claim is beyond me.

[Kreriov]

Oh, and this is the perfect example of you now saying anything to try and avoid a lynch.

I explicitely said it was useless to try to get ABR to claim becasue his claim could've been a lie.

WRONG ANSWER! You see, that is the whole point of trying to get ABR to claim! He could have been lying! He claims, you lynch me and see he is lying, and lynch the lying scum. Until he is forced to commit to a position, either fully claiming or just saying he had evidence against me, how would you have known he was lying even if I had been lynched? That is the whole point of setting up an either or lynch. AND YOU REFUSED TO DO IT! Why?

That is rhetorical. The answer is you are ABRs scum buddy.

[Kreriov]

Scum hammering other scum is a pretty classical technique for trying to curry town favor

This is absolutely correct. It even has a name. Its called bussing. Look it up in the Wiki. Why do you ignore this Exalt?

Still, I am not voting dramonic because I think he bussed ABR. I am voting dramonic because of his other blatantly scummy actions.
Surprisingly, it starts off with dramonic being almost right! As I pointed out and Wulfy found amusing, dramonic can state the underlying premise of Mafia!

I explicitely said it was useless to try to get ABR to claim becasue his claim could've been a lie.

dramonic right, his claimed could have been (and would have been!) a lie, but that does not make it useless! Guess what, when you can catch someone in a lie, YOU DO IT! If they are lying, lynch them! Simple. And yet, dramonic WILLFULLY refused to do this very thing. Hell, he even tap-danced around and tried to avoid making a decision when ABR ADMITTED lying! (He has someone against whom he had no case and someone who admitted lying, but he will lynch whichever he can? Wow, talk about scummy!) And now, he points to his hammering ABR as proof he is pro-town. Again, its called busing and dramonic didn't even do that well.

Exalt had a very good point about me being at L-1 for awhile. Long enough to be hammered and since I was not hammered, it is quite likely that all the scum were voting for me OR I am scum. You all will have to continue to judge whether or not I am scum. I say I am not and proceeding from there, that means at least 3 of the 5 people voting for me are non-town aligned. (I will call them scum from now on, but there could be an SK in there.) Since ABR was, indeed, scum, this leaves dramonic, JamesBond, Exalt and Wulfy. I believe Exalt's cop claim, but it does not matter if he is lying. Wulfy has been very jumpy and opportunistic as has JamesBond. This is almost a tie. Wulfy actually gives reasonable reasons for most of his votes. JamesBond has been more blatantly opportunistic and a bit scummier, failing to really explain his votes, hopping off my wagon when it looked like ABR was going down. If we have 3 scum and a Vig, then JB is scum. If 2 scum and an SK, Wulfy or Exalt are probably the SK. This leaves dramonicm who has both been extremely scummy (not willing to catch scum and bussing ABR). Seems like a no-brainer to me to take out dramonic. The only real question in my mind is should we hold off lynching a bit and try to figure out if we have an SK or a Vig.

@Drake - Your case is very good. Exalt has completely failed at this game as a cop which could mean he is really a SK. I just do not see enough to indicate he is an SK and really do not think it matters if he is lying as long as we lynch scum or sk today.

Let us assume the worst, that the second killer is an SK. Basically, it really does not matter right now if Exalt is lying. If he is lying, then we simply have no cop. This means the set up pretty much has to have been 9/2/1. (No way it would be 8/3/1 with no cop, to unbalanced.) Lynch scum (dramonic), and we just have to find the SK tommorrow.

If Exalt is not lying, this means there is a roleblocker. Then the set up is STILL almost certainly 9/2/1. The only thing that throws this off is if the roleblocker is town. This makes a 9/3 with a vig more likely if the roleblocker is scum. If the roleblocker is town, 9/2/1 is still most likely, with an outside chance of a 8/3/1 setup. So basically, with or without another town power role and whether or not Exalt is lying, there is pretty much no chance of there being 3 non-town aligned roles left in the game. The only way there are 3 non-town aligned roles in the game is if there is another town power role out there.

[Kreriov]

@Exalt - I have very much read your posts. You keep saying you do not think dramonic is scum because he hammered scum. Clearly I am reading.

The problem is you are exactly wrong. Scum have one very big reason to hammer fellow scum - to appear town. It is not only common for scum to hammer scum, it is so common it has a special term, bussing.

[Kreriov]

@Exalt - Oh, I see the problem. When I say ignoring, I do not mean that you do not realize dramonic hammered scum, but that you completely ignore the implications. I am sorry, I will speak in simpler terms for you.

It is so common for scum to hammer scum that there is a term for it - bussing. You are exactly wrong in thinking dramonic hammering ABR makes dramonic more town. It really does exactly the opposite.

I realize there are words with more than on syllable in the above, so I hope you can read and understand. If not, everyone else will at least.

[Kreriov]

@Exalt - perhaps you are under the misapprehension that none of the other players will realize that in my quote I specifically refer to hammering. If you want to try and imply that a more general interpretation of the term 'bussing' might apply to me because I voted for ABR and made a case against ABR and pushed ABR relentlessly until he admitted lying, you are welcome to try.

[Kreriov]

@Exalt - Are you unfamiliar with how a Jailkeeper works? Are you truly trying to say that you are entirely incapable of believing a JK would roleblock you on N2? ESPECIALLY given your whining about being the prime night kill target?

I personally do not think there is JK and that there is indeed a scum roleblocker. I merely state the above to (again) show the incredible lack in Exalt's critical thinking.

[Kreriov]

Well, given that you not only failed to scum hunt and in fact actively tried to prevent attempts to scum hunt, I would say it doesn't really matter what is going on in your mind.

[Kreriov]

Ok Exalt, Mr 26 Jan 2009 Um, in your extensive experience of about a month more than me here, what brilliant insights do you have? Oh right, lets list them in just this game. Lets see. You pushed the lynch of a townie. When people voted for you for being so scummy, you damn near broke down in tears. You probably had, but since teardrops on a keyboard don't readily translate, I cannot prove it. You absolutely refused to vote for someone who admitted lying. You completely dismiss the idea of bussing either in general or in specific. Since your pushing that mislynch on D1, you completely failed to make any case against anyone whatsoever.

Our experience doesn't mean jack either way. All I need is simple logic, something with which you are consistently failing. I do not say dramonic is scum because he hammered ABR. I say it does not matter, but you fail to listen. I say he is scum for many reasons. Him hammering ABR is a complete null tell because he could have been bussing. I just say he probably did given everything else. I do not say it is evidence.

Not only have I scum hunted, I have caught 1 and am certain I have a 2nd caught, unlike your stellar 0 for 1 record just in this game. The case against dramonic is very simple:

He voted for no other reason than his 'trust' of ABR. (dramonic's explanation, not mine.)
He refused to try and get any evidence that ABR was lying or to verify ABR was telling the truth, despite the ease with which it could be done.
He actively hindered any attempt to try and get evidence that ABR was lying.
He tried to shift responsibility for casting a vote, the hammer vote no less, to the town, rather than make a choice.
He completely failed to give any substantial reason for voting ABR (or me for that matter).

Continue to try and make this about you and me at your peril, Exalt. I have supported your cop claim from the get go.

[Kreriov]

@Exalt - You say this about my case against dramonic:

btw, all of that is wrong, and is garbage, so I don't need to comment further

because yes you do need to comment. Here is the case against dramonic. Refute what you will, because I can pull the direct quotes of dramonic doing exactly what I say he is doing to support my case. I have done so more than once and will continue to do it. Simply saying the case is garbage is not enough. Its a cop out and you need to PROVE I am in error. (You can't, but whatever.)

He voted for me for no other reason than his 'trust' of ABR. (dramonic's explanation, not mine.)
He refused to try and get any evidence that ABR was lying or to verify ABR was telling the truth, despite the ease with which it could be done.
He actively hindered any attempt to try and get evidence that ABR was lying.
He tried to shift responsibility for casting a vote, the hammer vote no less, to the town, rather than make a choice.
He gave no real reason for voting for ABR. (Merely saying it has to be ABR or me is not enough. He needs to actually give a reason to support his decision.)

As to why you would be defending dramonic and not allowing or even forcing him to do it himself is beyond me.

By the way, lets start the dramonic L-1 timer. ThAdmiral's vote at 9:48 pm EST on Monday put him at L-1. The longer he goes without a hammer, the more certain it becomes that he is scum.

dramonic L-1 timer: 11hrs 35 min since 21:48 Mon night and counting.

[Kreriov]

Wow, and now we have yet another mischaracterization followed by some misdirection by dramonic. (Bold added for emphasis)

... The fact that Kreriov survived

two days

at L-1 without being hammered as a townie really is ridiculous. I say this warrant a vote, but since I enjoy being the hammer guy I’ll just give you a major FoS

FoS: Kreriov

Now, instead of arguing over if I should be lynched or not (I'm for the latter), has anyone thought about analizing the NKs?

Fact: JamesBond put me at L-1 with a vote at 6:37am Fri 12 Jun. Exalt unvoted me at 4:36 pm 12 Jun, so I was at L-1 for 10 hours, NOT two days.

This actually weakens my theory that all three scum must have been voting for me as it is unclear whether any of those not voting for me had a chance to place a vote in that time, but I must be fair. Besides, it might be worth it to show, again, dramonic's desperation and scumminess.

[Kreriov]

1 - because you are lying scum
2 - given everything that has happened, I think you would have killed me or exalt last night if you were the vig. Why me is obvious. Why Exalt? Because you said so!

Well, now that a case has been developped...

Vote: Exalt

3-ABR and Exalt are scum buddies and this is all a bunch of hogwash.

There is no way in hell all three of you (you, ABR and Exalt) are town, so I'm willing to take the risk and begin the lynching with you, since Exalt has claimed Cop and ABR has confirmed him and you being scum.

If you flip scum, then ABR and Exalt are probably town
If you flip town, then we lynch them

Thing is, the six possible scenarios:

We lynch Exalt, he flips town: This says nothing about anyone, honestly.
We lynch Exalt, he flips scum: This says nothing ABR's alignment and slightly hints toward you being town (since it's not unheard of to have scum disagree to throw suspicions off).

We lynch ABR, he flips town: If he dies as tracker/watcher, we have a solid case on Exalt and you. If he dies something else... that won't happen Very Happy
We lynch ABR, he flips scum: We have nothing at all.

We lynch you, you flip town: Solid case on ABR
We lynch you, you flip scum: Solid case on ABR and Exalt

I’m not planning to build a case on people when I see no flaw to use in their posts. However, what I do see is that there is NO WAY in hell all three of you are town and my objective is to kill the mafia. I’m more than willing to lynch a townie (and we don’t even have proof of your innocence) if it means potentially catching two scum.

So, your absolute top suspects are Exalt and me and you did not vig either of us because...

Oh, right, you are lying scum.

[Kreriov]

Oh, I forgot to include this. This is just another reason as well, Drake.

dramonic L-1 timer: 13hrs 57min since 21:48 Mon night and counting.

[Kreriov]

Actually, that is exactly wrong Exalt. IF Exalt is the vig, that means the current ratio is 5/2 and we can afford a mislynch.. If we mislynch, the vig MUST NOT kill anyone because with the scum nk, the ratio will still be 3/2. If we mislynch and the vig kills and gets a townie, the game is over immediately.

But what if he is lying scum and there is an SK out there? That means the ratio is either 4/2/1 or 5/1/1. If we mislynch or, if the ratio is 4/2/1 and lynch scum and not the sk, the only way we can win is if there is a scum/sk cross kill.

In fact, this means we SHOULD lynch dramonic. If he is lying, he is scum and it is our best shot to win with an SK in the game short of lynching the SK. If he is telling the truth, we can afford the mislynch as it would put us at 3/2 ratio tommorrow with the certainty that 2 of me, ThAdmiral, and Wulfy are scum.

The whole point is we cannot let this vig claim go unchallenged into LYLO and we can most certainly afford to lynch dramonic even if he is not lying.

[Kreriov]

EBWOP - that should read 'IF dramonic is the vig'

[Kreriov]

Because there is no evidence against ThAdmiral, but even if there were, it does not really matter.

Quite literally, the only scenario in which we can afford to mislynch is if there is a vig. Since dramonic has claimed vig, the only person we can really afford to lynch, therefor, is dramonic! In every single other scenario, if we mislynch, we must rely on a scum or sk cross kill.

Should someone counter-claim dramonic, then we clearly must make a choice between the two claims. But until that happens, the only chance we have to avoid having to rely on a scum/sk cross-kill is to lynch dramonic or to lynch a possible sk.

So basically, we KNOW we can lynch dramonic if he is the vig. We know if he is not the vig, he is lying scum. Seems pretty simple to me.

[Kreriov]

Exalt, you are wrong. IF there is an SK out there, the very best thing we could do is lynch the SK. If there is an SK out there and we mislynch, then no matter what we do, the town can lose tonight. If there is an SK out there and we lynch a scum, we may still lose tonight.

The ONLY scenario in which the town cannot lose tonight is if there is a vig and it simply does not matter if we lynch that vig.

Since dramonic has claimed vig, if he is telling the truth, we can lynch him knowing we will not lose tonight. If he is a lying scum, we can lynch him and possibly not lose tonight depending on the set up.

[Kreriov]

Again, it does not matter. The only case in which the town cannot lose tonight is if there is a vig. Additionally, from now on the vig is useless since he should not kill anyone at night from now on anyway. Lets say we have a vig and it is not dramonic. That means dramonic is scum and the vig should not kill because if he misses, the ratio will be 3/1 instead of 4/1. (4/1 allows another mislynch, 3/1 does not.) Lets say dramonic is lying but he is really a VT. The vig should not kill because if he hits a townie, the town immediately loses. I just do not see how you can be so intransigent, Exalt.

[Kreriov]

Oh, and you are by NO MEANS a confirmed townie. Just because you have not been CCd does NOT make you a confirmed townie.

[Kreriov]

It is not that I do not have suspicions of lurkers! It is simple logic. If we have a vig, we cannot lose tonight no matter who we lynch. If we have an SK, the only way to avoid risking losing tonight is to lynch the SK. If we do not lynch the SK, our chance of NOT LOSING improve drastically if we lynch scum.

dramonic is either the vig or scum. I simply choose to either guarantee not losing or drastically improving our chances of not losing rather than taking a random shot at a potential SK.

[Kreriov]

Well, I need to go to lunch. When dramonic flips scum, I just want to make sure any potential vig understands that they should most definitely NOT kill anyone.

[Kreriov]

@Exalt - if you want I can link you 12 man games in which there is no cop. Do not take this to mean I do not believe your claim. It simply means you are not confirmed and that your argument that you must be a cop because all 12 man games have cop is in error. If you never get a result because of blocking, so what. When you are not a cop in a game, you use logic. That is all you need to do now.

@JamesBond - the hammer means nothing. In fact, in means less than nothing. There are reasons for both scum and town to hammer, so it is a complete null tell. Your insistence that it must mean something is precisely why scum would want to hammer. The act itself is not scummy, it is because dramonic specifically tried to not take responsibility for it that is scummy. He basically said whichever guy the town wanted him to lynch, he would. He made no decisions. He did not try to make any sort of case to which he could be tied. THAT is the anti-town and scummy part. Just like Exalt keeps getting on ThAdmiral, Wulfy, and you for lurking and not really contributing, I am pointing out that not only has dramonic been doing that, he is doing it actively. He has been following others leads, jumping on wagon's (Exalt, me, ABR) at a whim with no reasons or support. He will not take a position. He will not make a case. He most specifically did not try to get ABR to either confirm or deny anything at all and actively hindered attempts to do so. Now we add in the fact that, if there is a vig, we can safely mislynch. Well, in his infinite wisdom, dramonic has claimed vig. He is the one person we can lynch that can either guarantee we make it at least to LYLO or, if there is an SK, gives us the best chance of not losing tonight short of lynching the SK. Why anyone would balk at lynching him is beyond me - guarantee another day or lynch a scum and pretty much guarantee another day.

[Kreriov]

Oh yeah, I forgot. The longer it goes, the greater the certainty of him being scum.

dramonic L-1 timer: 16hrs 30min since 21:48 Mon night and counting.

[Kreriov]

Please. You know damn well if dramonic flips vig I am next. Its ok though, dramonic is scum.

[Kreriov]

@dramonic - Nice try scum. Saying my logic is faulty does not make it so. PROVING it faulty would, but you cannot do that now, can you.

[Kreriov]

Here is the logic. The possibilities not that dramonic is dead are in bold:

There are 3 possible game states given what we know (that there are 2 killers):
Case 1: 5 townies / 2 scum - requires that 2nd killer be a vig
Case 2: 5 townies / 1 scum / 1 SK - requires that dramonic be lying.
Case 3: 4 townies / 2 scum / 1 SK - requires that dramonic be lying.

There are 4 possible lynchs - regular townie, dramonic vig, scum, SK. Depending on the lynch we can determine possible end states for the next day.

Case 1 - No SK so only townie, dramonic/other vig, or scum lynch possible.
townie lynch - 2 townie / 2 scum - end state 1 - vig kills townie
3 townie / 2 scum - end state 2 - double town kill or no vig kill or doc saves a kill
4 townie / 2 scum - end state 3 - combination of doc/jk save and no kills
3 townie / 1 scum - end state 4 - scum kill and vig kill scum
4 townie / 1 scum - end state 5 - no scum kill or doc/jk save and vig kill scum

dramonic/other vig lynch - 3 townie / 2 scum - end state 1 - scum kills townie
4 townie / 2 scum - end state 2 - doc/jk save

scum lynch (dramonic or otherwise) - 4 townie / 1 scum - end state 1 - combination of scum/vig kills with double kills, no kills, and saves
5 townie / 1 scum - end state 2 - combination of no kills and saves
3 townie / 1 scum - end state 3 - scum kill townie and vig kill towne
4 or 5 townie / NO scum - vig kills scum and scum does or does not kill townie

Case 2 - dramonic cannot be telling the truth for this case to be true
townie lynch - 2 townie / 1 scum / 1 SK - end state 1 - scum, sk, dramonic all kill townies
3 townie / 1 scum / 1 SK - end state 2 - scum and SK double target or there is a save
3 townie / 1 scum OR 1 SK - end state 3 - scum or SK kill townie, other kills scum or sk
4 townie / nothing - end state 4 - scum and sk target each other
4 townie / 1 scum or SK - end state 5 - scum or SK killed other and someone got saved

scum lynch (only dramonic possible here) - 4 townie / 1 SK - end state 1 - SK kills townie
5 townie / 1 SK - end state 2 - SK no kill or is prevented

SK lynch - 4 townie / 1 scum - end state 1 - scum kills townie
5 townie / 1 scum - end state 2 - scum no kill or is prevented

Case 3 - dramonic cannot be telling the truth for this case to be true
townie lynch - 1 townie / 2 scum / 1 SK - end state 1 - scum and SK kill townies
2 townie / 2 scum / 1 SK - end state 2 - double kill or target gets saved
2 townie / 1 scum / 1 SK - end state 3 - scum kill town, sk kills scum
2 townie / 2 scum - end state 3 - sk kills town, scum kill sk
3 townie / 1 scum - end state 4 - sk and scum kill each other
3 townie / 2 scum - end state 5 - scum kill sk, sk kill saved
3 townie / 1 scum / 1 sk - end state 6 - sk kills scum and scum kill saved
3 townie / 2 scum / 1 sk - end state 7 - double target that is saved

scum lynch (dramonic or other) - 2 townie / 1 scum / 1 sk - end state 1 - scum and sk kill townies
3 townie / 1 scum / 1 sk - end state 4 - double target, a no kill, or 1 target saved
4 townie / 1 scum / 1 sk - end state 3 - no kills or double target saved
4 townie / nothing - end state 4 - cross kills
4 townie / 1 scum OR 1 sk - end state 5 - target save plus a sk/scum kill of other

sk lynch - 3 townie / 2 scum - end state 1 - scum kill townie
4 townie / 2 scum - end state 2 - no kill or target saved

[Kreriov]

I am glad to be considered town because I certainly deserve to be lynched. I can say dramonic was scummy as hell and point out exactly why, but it does not matter. I was wrong. I pushed dramonic's lynch and fully expect to pay the penalty.

I will at least share my thoughts in hopes they help. Without agreeing or disagreeing with James, the advantage of having the doc claim is we potentially get two more known townies, the doc and whomever he protected. There are two main problems. The first is that the scum can then pick whomever they want to night kill with impunity. The second is the problem of a counter-claim. I really do not know what to do. My instict is to go for more info. dramonic's refusal to and hinderance of trying to get more info when it does not cost you anything is the biggest reason I suspected him. I does not matter that he acted illogically. I am now afraid that my instinct to want more info may not further our goals. I am also partly worried about the chances the doc protected Exalt, which would mean our only info would be the docs identity and not a second confirmed townie.

The risk in a no lynch is similar. We must weigh the potential loss of information against the narrowing of the suspect pool.

Whatever happens, I would advize if the doc does claim, he should not reveal whom he protected until later. At least we will know whenever the doc places a vote that that person is not a confirmed innocent. Just so long as he gives us the info before the day ends.

[Kreriov]

Well, I seriously doubt that there would have been no attempt at a night kill. It is way to much trouble when, with a successful NK, all it takes is one town misvote and the game is over.

I did miss one thing in my analysis. If the doc does not claim, then he has a chance to prevent another NK. So basically, if the doc claims, its an all or nothing proposition. If he claims, we cannot mislynch. If he remains hidden, there is a chance for another day.

[Kreriov]

Definitely.

[Kreriov]

Did we decide on whether or not we wanted a doc claim? If so, I will certainly not vote until then. Why do you rate Exalt as being scum Wulfy? His argument that all 12 man games have a cop is not correct, but it is 95% correct. And with a 1 shot vig that certainly boulsters the idea that one of the 3 (yes, I am assuming there are 3) scum is a roleblocker.

[Kreriov]

@ThAdmiral - who did you protect last night?

[Kreriov]

Well, from my perspective, I have a 2 in 3 chance of hitting scum by voting randomly. As far as I am concerned, I know there are 3 town - me, Exalt, and ThAdmiral. I do not know why Wulfy is so convinced that ThAdmiral's claim is false. SOMEONE was definitely saved from a NK last night. (As Exalt theorized, it is possible the scum did not try a NK, but I seriously doubt it. And besides, even if they did not try a NK, that does not make ThAdmiral's claim any less true. It would only mean it did not really confirm Exalt.) Besides, it all fits. A 12 man set-up with 2 scum goons/1 scum roleblocker, 1 Cop, 1 Doc, 1 1-shot Vig, and 6 townies is pretty balanced and expected.

So, I see 2 scum in Wulfy, Drake, and JamesBond. The problem isn't so much figuring out which is scum, a 66% chance randomly is pretty good already. The problem is figuring out which is the roleblocker because if we can nail the roleblocker today, then the town wins. The town wins if the roleblocker dies because a protected Exalt can investigate one of the two who are left and determine which is guilty.

Unfortunately, I really have no leads at all on who might be the roleblocker. I can point to scummy things all three have done. If anyone can convince me that another of those 3 is the roleblocker, I will definitely change my vote.

Right now I think the most scummy of the three is JamesBond. His voting pattern and reasons for voting or not voting are scummy as hell. Now, when it finally gets to LYLO, he has greatly increased participation as well as trying to point out how much lurking others have done. I certainly appreciate his sentiment that I must be town, but that is really suspicious to me as well, actually. It really feels like someone naming me townie to appear more townie themselves. Finally, I am having a very tough time separating Wulfy and Drake. The fact that both have been in on every single lynch this game makes is almost certain one is not scum. I just cannot figure out which and hope that Exalt has a chance to figure it out tonight.

So....

Vote: JamesBond

[Kreriov]

Well, I might be wrong. I certainly was wrong with dramonic and the fact that his play can be used as a case study on horrible town play is only small consolation. Your voting pattern next to Wulfy/Drake points to you being a scumpair with one of them. I just wish I could know if you are the roleblocker.

[Kreriov]

@Exalt - you are wrong there. Both Wulfy and Drake have been on every single lynch, including ABRs. JamesBond NOT voting for ABR despite his supposed astonishment that ABR lied is one of the prime reasons I suspect JamesBond. Wulfy and Drake have voted exactly the same every time and both have been on every single lynch. The is precisely the reason I feel they cannot both be scum. But that also means, from my perspective, one of them must be scum.

Even if I agree that both Drake and Wulfy are scum, I really have no clue as to who would be the roleblocker. Please tell me why you think Wulfy is the roleblocker in a Wulfy/Drake pair as it would also most likely apply to a Wulfy/JamesBond pair as well.

[Kreriov]

Unvote

I am going to have to think about this development.

[Kreriov]

I have been thinking and analyzing and have some thoughts and ideas. Noticeably missing is any participation by Drake since Wulfy claimed. Before I do anything at all, I think I need to hear from Drake.

[Kreriov]

This whole game has been riddled with poor play. If there is a scummy for poor play as a townie and as a 1 shot-vig, dramonic should get it. His play was a case study on poor townie and poor 1-shot vig play. Had he managed to make it until now, I would have no problem lynching either Wulfy or ThAdmiral because then the vig could save the day if we were wrong. JamesBond, at least you have the exuse of being a newbie. Either way your play has been scummy as hell.

I am not going to hammer ThAdmiral right now and I wish Exalt or someone would remove their vote temporarily. We have not heard from Drake. Obviously either Wulfy or ThAdmiral are scum. I am just not sure of who is scum out of JamesBond/Drake. I am leaning towards a Drake/TheAdmiral scum team but am not sure. I want to see what Drake makes of the situation before deciding because if ThAdmiral is not the roleblocker, we will have to choose rather than rely on Exalt's investigation. Lets get a bit more info from Drake to help us make that decision. If anything, Drake's continued silence is just more evidence he is scum in my mind, so let him just make the noose longer.

[Kreriov]

Well, it is frustrating, but we need to get Drake back before proceeding. In my mind I have the following pairs - Wulfy/JamesBond and TheAdmiral/Drake. I am sorry if me waiting for Drake drags the game a bit. For those of us in the US though, this is a holiday weekend so hopefully it will not be to onerous waiting for Drake to return.

[Kreriov]

By that I take it you are going to vote for Wulfy. Which is sort of what I expected. This pretty much confirms my pairing - Wulfy/JamesBond and ThAdmiral/Drake. Therefor, I have a proposal.

I say we lynch NEITHER ThAdmiral or Wulfy. Instead, we pick who we think is most likely the partner of the claiment we find to be most scummy. This way the doc is protected tonight. (The remaining scum cannot NK his rival without revealing himself.)

I find Drakes argument convincing. I already suspected Wulfy because he did not immediately counter claim. It really does seem like he claimed to protect JamesBond, someone whom I already thought the most scummy. I also did not like the post where Wulfy listed Exalt the most likely to be scum and me the least likely. Aside from the percentage being complete bullshit, I felt listing me that low was an attempt to curry favor. Not something I would expect of Wulfy, frankly.

Anyway, this mean I will

Vote: JamesBond

[Kreriov]

Its still a 50% shot Exalt, if you class me as townie. The whole point is trying to keep the doc alive. Yes, it would be pretty tough for Wulfy to squirm out of it when JamesBond turns up scum. But it would be absolutely certain that Wulfy is scum if ThAdmiral is night killed. (And vice versa of course.) And if there is no night kill for whatever reason, we could even get back a mislynch.

[Kreriov]

Well, its over then. JamesBond, you really need to learn how to play online. I guess I can see now how your mistakes were newbie mistakes and not scummy ones. We still would have won had we not been saddled with dramonic. I hope he is still reading this and realizes how horribly he played. I will never join another game in which dramonic is signed up to play.

Grats Drake and ThAdmiral.

[Kreriov]

@ThAdmiral - Yes, it is dramonic's fault. The single biggest disadvantage to the town is the fact that they are uniformed. Its the entire premise of the game. dramonic not trying to get more info and in fact hindering the gathering of info is pretty much the exact wrong thing to do. I had absolutely no doubt he was scum until he flipped. Then for him to vig scruffs when the town is way, way ahead with the lynch of ABR, was just plain stupid. I do not know if I mentioned it during the Wulfy/ThAdmiral CC fight, but that is the purpose for having a vig around. You get the wrong one and the vig gets the correct one that night. Failing to push ABR into either admiting he was lying or falsely claiming when he had a chance is an epic fail for dramonic followed by another epic fail in vigging someone for no real reason.

My biggest regret is that I am not sure Starkmoon enjoyed modding. She did a wonderful job under difficult circumstances. It is to her credit that she was able to find quality replacements and keep the game moving.