Open 139 (Lovers Mafia) - Over! before 781

[Crazy]

/confirm

[Crazy]

Wooh!

To be honest, I've never read nor played in a Lovers Mafia game before... *shrug*. But anyway, it's exactly like polygamist without all the townies being lovers.

I'll

Vote: orangepenguin

because he's the other male and last time I random-voted him, he was scum.

[Crazy]

Wooh!

To be honest, I've never read nor played in a Lovers Mafia game before... *shrug*. But anyway, it's exactly like polygamist without all the townies being lovers.

I'll

Vote: orangepenguin

because he's the other male and last time I random-voted him, he was scum.

Uh...link. Lynch all liars.

vote: Crazy

I didn't random vote you in that game...

I was referring to here.

[Crazy]

I agree with Plum. I made statements like Plum mentioned in a recent Vengeful game (as scum) that probably ended up getting me in trouble later. Or, at least, it pretty much eyed out who my partner was.

[Crazy]

The game I linked was a lovers game, which you and I both were in. You were quite prolific in that game day 1, but ended up being town.

As for the game you linked, why do you and farside always bring up THAT game? That is definitely my least favorite game ever on this site. Not my best play, regardless of role. You just happened to get lucky that time. This time, you aren't quite so lucky with your random vote.

I said that last time that I random voted you, you were scum. Last time I random voted you was in that game, not the game you referenced.

Just a reason for a random vote.

[Crazy]

The game I linked was a lovers game, which you and I both were in. You were quite prolific in that game day 1, but ended up being town.

As for the game you linked, why do you and farside always bring up THAT game? That is definitely my least favorite game ever on this site. Not my best play, regardless of role. You just happened to get lucky that time. This time, you aren't quite so lucky with your random vote.

I said that last time that I random voted you, you were scum. Last time I random voted you was in that game, not the game you referenced.

Just a reason for a random vote.

But you said you never READ nor played in a lover's game. But you have. So that is what I am talking about.

Oh, okay. Well, I meant this particular setup, since this is a very popular setup that I believe has been run about 2-4 times in the past.

[Crazy]

Anyways, as for the present, I am 102% sure that Plum may or may not be scum. It could go either way.

???

There are no errors in my post. There is a hint of humor though.

Questioning humor = scum?

[Crazy]

I have to stop posting after midnight. My last post was meant to be a joke, but it doesn't really make sense.

[Crazy]

Where's Plum actually

Also, when the hope's lost, we'll follow the Sens-way:

Vote Crazy

Ooh, I'm at L-1. Scum can go ahead and hammer me, btw. Especially in a setup where the town wins if they find just one scum.

[Crazy]

It's not a knit >.<
It's raising his eyebrow...

And I'm using that emoticon to show that I'm suspicious of his last post.

Why? Was I not correct? If a stupid scum hammers me, we lynch the stupid scum tomorrow and win.

---

VOTE COUNT

(3) Crazy - orangepenguin, ZazieR

(1) orangepenguin - Crazy
(1) ZazieR - Plum
(1) Chief - kirroha

Not Voting - Chief

With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch

[Crazy]

Why? Was I not correct? If a stupid scum hammers me, we lynch the stupid scum tomorrow and win

Exactly. And that's why it's suspicious. If you believe that the scum would hammer you, why would you post:
'Scum hammer me, so that the town can lynch you towmorrow '

It makes no sense for any townie to say that.

Also, by posting this, it makes every player scared of hammering you in case you're town, because it would make that player suspicious as it's now assumed that scum will hammer.


These two reasons make your post suspicious.

I didn't think the scum would hammer me. I assumed you just put me at L-1 to jumpstart discussion, thinking nobody would actually hammer. But I did want everyone to know I was at L-1, so I wouldn't be accidentally hammered by a random vote.

Basically, I didn't think it was a big deal, because I didn't expect the scum to hammer me anyway.

About your second point, hammering someone in general is not scummy; but on the 3rd page, it is.

[Crazy]

I didn't think the scum would hammer me. I assumed you just put me at L-1 to jumpstart discussion, thinking nobody would actually hammer. But I did want everyone to know I was at L-1, so I wouldn't be accidentally hammered by a random vote.

Everybody has already random voted, and also posted. So there's no need for you to worry about being random voted for. Also, I think everyone already knows that you're at L-1.

I don't mean now; I meant after Zazie put me at L-1.

[Crazy]

-If someone would hammer you now, would you think that player is scum or would you think he/she is town? Why?

Scum, for sure. Since when is hammering someone on Page 3 not obvscum?

-Do you think Chief's unvote is justified regarding her reason? Why?

I often see people get paranoid when people are at L-1 for no particular reason. I don't have any problem with Chief's reaction.

-Do you agree with me that the way you wrote your first post regarding my vote, gives a kind of defence as players will be afraid to hammer you? Why?

Hammering now, yes, because that will be indicative of scum.
Hammering later, after a bunch of discussion is a different story, because then there will actually be evidence and such.

Also, the Sens-way is following two things. I've followed the first, what do you think of the second (lynching random)?
(question to everybody)

Please include why.

We have only 2 lynches this game. If we lynch town, we severely cut down our chances of winning. No amount of kickstarting discussion can really justify that.

[Crazy]

Our game is quite inactive. I presume that RVS is not quite over yet?

*shrug* I never consider there to be a concrete change between RVS and non-RVS. I do think we're mostly out of it, though. Unfortunately, this game is inactive.

OP, your last post didn't comment on anything that was being said. Anything to say?

[Crazy]

It was pretty obvious that the scum would hammer him, but it was sort of a WIFOM, and a risk to take, none the less.

It's not that scum

would

; it's that town

wouldn't

, hence it's not WIFOM.

[Crazy]

I think differently, Chief. Crazy might have said that scum would hammer him so that nobody would dare to hammer him.

I didn't say that scum would hammer me! Pretty much I was daring them to, because I knew they wouldn't.

[Crazy]

But that also makes others worried about hammering you, so you won't get hammered. Still, I doubt if anyone is stupid enough to hammer at page 3.

This game is moving way too slowly.

Well... it might make them worry about hammering me on

Page 3!

Hammering someone with evidence isn't bad, but on Page 3, yes, it is.

Well, newbie games have disproven this statement
But anyway, both you and Chief agreed with this, so I don't see why both of you were so cautious.

Well, this isn't a newbie game.

And I don't particularly think I was cautious... unless you mean about making a note that I was at L-1... but there I was afraid that someone would accidentally hammer me, not conciously hammer me.

I disagree. Scum loses when one scum gets lynched. When a random lynch is started on scum, the other will disagree and try to get somebody else lynched. So a random lynch gives information as we can disclose some pairings. Use Plum's plan day 2, and we'll have lots of possible pairings eliminated.

So you're saying that you'd approve of a random lynch right now? Really?

[Crazy]

The dice roll is not optimal. 'Random' 2 is less problematic, but I believe that demanding more concrete reasons for suspicions and votes is the way to go.

Though I too think that having no discussion is ridiculous, a random die roll cannot be influenced by scum, but a random wagon can be.

If we need a random lynch, we need a

purely

random lynch. But of course we shouldn't need a random lynch at all.

[Crazy]

Who do you think is scum, OP? I was somewhat leaning towards you, but pretty much I'm suspicious of most people here.

[Crazy]

I have no troubles when someone points out that he's at L-1. I do have troubles when someone plays cautious by adding that scum could hammer, but that that would result into a town win. I've discussed this already in previous posts.

I still don't get how that makes me scum... it seems your issue is that I'm town and I'm alerting the scum not to hammer me. I'll admit that could be perceived as anti-town (though I don't think it's a big deal), but how it makes me scum I have no idea. If your issue is that I'm alerting the

scum

not to hammer me, then that implies that I'm town, doesn't it?

If your issue is that I'm alerting the

town

not to hammer me, well then, that's easy to see from a town point of view, right? Assuming I'm town, and stupid townie hammers me on Page 3, then they'd be lynched tomorrow and scum would win.

So what is really making me scummy, here?

[Crazy]

Yes, I got that much. But I gave you a reason:

If your issue is that I'm alerting the town not to hammer me, well then, that's easy to see from a town point of view, right? Assuming I'm town, and stupid townie hammers me on Page 3, then they'd be lynched tomorrow and scum would win.

So what is really making me scummy, here?

Of course I don't want town to hammer me on Page 3! Whether I'm town or scum, either way it would lead to a loss!

[Crazy]

Also, when will you state your reasons for thinking that OP is suspicious, and what about stating your other suspicions with reasons?

Lurky. Not much content. That's pretty obvious. I was also suspicious of you and kirroha, because I think your guys' case on me isn't founded on solid ground. I'm pretty null on Chief and Plum seems pro-town.

Uhm, you weren't thinking about a townie hammering when you wrote this:

Did you even read my post? I asked if your issue was if I was trying to get

town

not to hammer me or

scum

not to hammer me. I defended myself from both arguments.

So I take it that means your case is that I was trying to get

scum

not to hammer me, right? If that's not what it was, then tell me, just so I know what to defend from.

I'm assuming the former now, that you think I was trying to get

scum

not to hammer me. Well, if I'm scum, why do I have to worry about scum hammering me? Why do I need to convince my scum partner not to hammer me?! It makes no sense!

Your move, Zazie. I think I can win this duel.

Unvote
Vote ZazieR

[Crazy]

unvote, Vote: Crazy

Lynch all liars.

Where did I lie? If you're talking about ZazieR's accusation, reread please. I wasn't sure what her case was so I covered both possibilities.

If you're talking about the stupid "I've never been in a Lovers game before," I meant this particular setup, not any game with Lovers in it.

[Crazy]

So Plum joined my side, good. Logic shall prevail.

I'm thinking either Zazie and kirroha or Zazie or OP as the scum team.

I'll duel with anyone that wants it. Zazie, OP, etc.

[Crazy]

Uh... isn't that just everyone other than you? XD

I assumed it was in order with the scummy at the top.

[Crazy]

I've said pretty much all I can at the current moment, unless if anybody has questions for me.

Anybody else have anything to say?

[Crazy]

Wow, more from Plum.

Anyway, I agree with her almost completely; I just hope she's not buddying up to me for some reason.

It's no secret that I want to lynch Zazie. If she's not scum, then I'll admit I don't really know where I'm going. OP is incredibly scummy, but he's playing similar to his normal play anyway (from what I've seen from it, anyway.)

Plum seems unquestionably pro-town, and I really want to hear how OP gets a scum vibe from her.

Kirroha is agreeing with Zazie a lot... if Zazie's town I have no idea what that means.

Chief doesn't have any particularly strong scum-bonds with any of the other players, but I'd like to hear more from her/Kmd (if she's replaced) in the future.

All this assuming Zazie is town. If Zazie is scum, then we don't have to worry. And I'm about 90% sure she's scum, anyway.

[Crazy]

I'm currently the deadline lynch, guys. If you don't think I should be lynched, do something...

[Crazy]

Ok, I see deadline a few hours away. I need to read these 5 pages tomorrow. Shouldn't take too long.

The deadline is in a few days, not a few hours, but okay.

[Crazy]

OMGUS much?

Yeah, you know if you just quote the last two sentences of a post that includes a vote, it always looks like OMGUS. Did you see how flimsy Zazie's logic is? And how when after I voted her she hasn't showed up, despite posting lots elsewhere on site?

---

VOTE COUNT

(2) Crazy - ZazieR, orangepenguin

(2) ZazieR - Crazy, Plum
(1) Chief - kirroha
(1) kirroha - Kmd4390

With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch

---

[Crazy]

On further thought, I don't like Kmd's post at all. His logic for voting kirroha is entirely Process-of-elimination, simply because she has the most possible scum-partners. Now this isn't too bad on it's own, but his logic for ruling out possible scum-partners is based on rather flimsy WIFOM (scum wouldn't buddy this hard, or scum wouldn't distance this hard, bleh) Assuming that scum will never put each other at L-1 is a very long stretch, especially considering there hasn't been an imminent threat of a lynch until recently.

The other thing, what Kmd said about Kirroha being scum because of having so many possible scum-partners also applies to Chief, don't you think? I mean, from Kmd's standpoint, that's fine, but from the rest of the town, we would have to assume that Kmd is town in order to believe his logic on Kirroha, otherwise, it applies to both of them.

[Crazy]

So either you were worried about town hammering or you were worried about scum hammering. Why defend against both? Why not say which is the case and just defend against that point?

But, anyway. At this point, the post is more defense than attack. So I won't consider this part of your case.

Because Zazie wasn't clear, and I wanted to cover either response from her.

Not the point. You basically said that anyone who hammers you is scum. Zazie clearly pointed out why that was scummy. It scares anyone away from hammering. It allows you to stay alive. If you are scum, it allows your game to continue.

Zazie stated that the issue was that I was scaring scum away from hammering me. Read her post, here:

Uhm, you weren't thinking about a townie hammering when you wrote this:

Scum can go ahead and hammer me, btw. Especially in a setup where the town wins if they find just one scum.

LAL?

Unvote Vote Crazy

Why would scum need to stop other scum from hammering them? Craplogic = Scum = Die, Zazie.

I didn't make any real notes of all possible scumpairs, Kmd, because both Chief and Kirroha didn't have any extensive interaction with anyone. They could both be scum with a lot of different people... but does that make them more likely to be scum period? No.

I think Zazie is the scummiest person in the game for her incessant craplogic (read her posts, seriously, Plum can see it.), and I could easily see her partnered with Kirroha, OP, or you, not by the way of "no-interaction", but by the way of "scum-interaction." That is why I am voting for her.

[Crazy]

That wasn't my point. Were you worried about scum hammering or town hammering? And if you meant one and she meant the other, why should you even bother defending whichever wasn't even what you meant in the first place?

I wasn't worried about either. I said what I said for no particular reason. I was worried about Zazie's argument against me. I didn't know what exactly it was, so I covered both possible arguments to save time.

What she pointed to is that YOU were talking about a scum hammer originally and then YOU started to talk about a town hammer. The inconsistancy is yours here.

I don't see her saying that you were scaring scum away from hammering.

Well, I thought she might have thought that I was talking about a scum hammer, but really trying to scare off townies from hammering me, as someone (kirroha, I think), said. Still, I covered both defenses.

Ok, fair enough.

What are your thoughts if we lynch Zazie and she flips town?

I'd think OP/Kirroha, or maybe OP/you.

[Crazy]

Well, I'm dead pretty soon. Ah well. So stupid.

What? You implied that anyone who hammers you is scum "for no particular reason"?

It was the random stage. Zazie put me at L-1. I had to say

something!

Why exactly were you so worried about her argument?

You expect me to ignore an argument against me?

And I'm gonna just go ahead and say this instead of asking the same thing over and over. I don't see any reason why you would have to defend yourself from something that is false. It looks like scum who is paranoid that there is a case against them and is trying to hurry up and defend before it gets unmanagable.

Crap cases don't deserve defenses? That's ridiculous!

So you mention OP in both pairs. Not likely scum with you if we go to tomorrow and you attack OP. You DON'T mention Plum. And you mention Kirroha and myself once. Assuming you follow this, Crazy/OP is even more unlikely than it was already. Crazy/Plum becomes slightly more likely. Crazy/Kirroha stays about the same.

I strongly think Plum is pro-town. So, now, like obviously, we can't be scum because we're buddying too hard, right, super-logic-man?

Also, to prove that I'm not kirroha's partner...

Unvote
Vote Kirroha

See, now I can't feasibly be any partner by your logic! Doi.

Unvote
Vote ZazieR

Now that's the real argument. You were scaring off townies. Not scum like you said in your last post.

Neither argument is good. As town, I don't want townies to be quicklynching me. But Zazie's argument was the other one, btw.

I'm going to be lynched. No way Kirroha is going to change her mind. Inactivity by other players is what caused my lynch, seriously.

[Crazy]

As for somebody who thinks lurking is scummy, I wonder why you didn't mention Chief or Kirroha when they were inactive.

Well, they weren't as bad as OP... and OP's posts were more devoid of content.

My argument isn't about that. You're making players 'scared' into hammering you. That's my point. That's why I think you're scummy. Scum has reasons for this, while townies don't. Especially when you think that a hammerer on page 3 would be obvious scum, this is scummy as hell.

I'm getting "players" scared to hammer me? What players, town or scum? I gave a defense for both.

'I think I can win this duel'. Why has nobody giving any comments to this? Do townies think about winning a duel? This is not a townie speaking

I do. When I'm positive or nearly positive somebody is scum, then I like winning duels. In Open 119, I had a very enjoyable duel with dejkha. Or you could see Paris Mafia with Kmd.

You weren't thinking that a townie would hammer. A hammerer would have been obv scum to you. Therefore, it doesn't make sense for you to include that in your defence. You 'warned' someone who would be obv scum to you. Give me one reason why a townie would do that.
That's why I said it was a lie. You were according to you not thinking about a townie hammering. The hammerer would be scum to you. So I don't see any reason why to include a townie hammerer into your defence.

By your logic, anybody that uses the word "flabbergasted" must be scum because there's no real reason why a townie would use that word.

See, you don't look for what doesn't have townie motivation... you look for what

has

scum motivation. Tell me, if you

are

talking about scaring scum not to hammer you, then

why

would scum need to scare theiry scum-partner into not hammering him? Scum usually don't need convincing to not hammer their partner, you know.

I'll admit making that post wasn't for any strategic purpose, but do you expect everything in the RVS to be that way? You have only explained how it doesn't have town motivation; you haven't explained how it has scum motivation.

State why you think these teams.

You and Kirroha have both been holding the same opinions, here. OP voted me with no content or explanation after you had made your case.

[Crazy]

Zazie, who do you think I am scum with?

If I'm lynched as town, who do you think the scumteam is?

[Crazy]

You said that scum would hammer you, not town. That's what I was saying.

What's the reason that you think Kevin can be scum with me?

Yes, I said that scum would hammer me. Of course town wouldn't. But what's your case; I provided defenses for either, but you're ignoring them.

Isn't this what I have been saying all along?

So the case now is that I was trying to scare off townies from hammering me? I assumed it wasn't when last time I brought it up, I got a vote for lying.

Anyway, nobody wants town to hammer them. If I'm town, and a townie quickhammers me, then they'll be lynched tomorrow and we lose. See, perfectly reasonable town-sided explanation.

That's why you 'warn' scum. Makes lots of sense Rolling Eyes
There were lots of possible responses, yet you choose to 'warn' scum.
Besides, it doesn't make sense at all as you didn't even think about a townie hammering. You said, scum would have hammered. Not buying the excuse written in the above quote.

I'll admit it might not have been a great thing to do, but it seems to me that you're voting me just for doing something anti-town, but not scummy. I've provided reasons either why it doesn't make sense for me to do that as scum, or why I would possibly do that as town.

[Crazy]

Chief got prodded, while OP didn't. So how was OP worse? And OP has stated his suspicions. Can you say that for Kirroha?

OP stated his suspicions without backing up them up with anything. To me, that's worse than just lurking... especially seeing how Chief got replaced.

Town. And your defense is BS as you never thought of a stupid townie hammering. Besides, I don't see why you'd post that if you're a townie as you said that the hammerer would be scum. Why 'warn' the scum if you're a townie?

Well, the thing is, your accusation wasn't any good in the first place. It's common sense that townies aren't supposed to quick-hammer people. What's wrong with making a note that I was at L-1, so that nobody will hammer me accidentally, since I was sure that

nobody

would do it intentionally! (Town won't, unless you're Nat, and scum won't because then they'd be lynched Day 2.) I didn't think I would be quick-hammered, unless it was by a stupid townie that didn't watch the vote count. My post "warning" the scum was sarcastic; I never expected them to hammer.

It's not about winning duels. It's about lynching scum. I see that statement as 'give up your attacks against me, or you'll feel sorry'

I only duel with people whom I think are scum.

You've said that you think that the hammerer would've been scum. I'm taking over these exact words when I mention my point against you. Of course, it makes no sense for scum to say that.
However, if townies think that other players will look at them as scum if they hammer, they won't hammer as they are 'scared' that the lynched player is town. So it makes perfect sense for scum-Crazy to say, but not for town-Crazy.

Not "hammer." "Quick-hammer." You keep ignoring the difference here. Nobody is going to quick-hammer me intentionally. I made my post to make a note that I was at L-1, and just to start

some

discussion, so nobody would accidentally hammer me.

Obviously hammering someone after pages of discussion isn't what I was referring to in that post. I meant quick-hammering, and you know it.

[Crazy]

In response to your last post. If you were hammered, you would have thought that it was scum. You were never once thinking that town would hammer you as you said in the above quote. So this is NOT the case at all:

You're right if you substitute "hammer" with "quickhammer." Hammering someone after pages of discussion is fine! Quickhammering someone is never fine, regardless of alignment. You're right; I wasn't thinking about town quickhammering me... but to be honest, I wasn't thinking about scum quickhammering me, either. The only thing I was even remotely concerned about was someone not seeing I was at L-1 and accidentally quickhammering me.

See, I don't always say what I mean. My post was sarcastic; I didn't expect anyone to hammer me. The post was 50% randomness/50% making a note that I was at L-1.

The reasoning that I would possibly say that as town is that I wasn't worried about either scum or town quickhammering; I said it in the spirit of the random stage, and to make a small note that I was at L-1 to stop a stupid townie from inadvertantly quickhammering me.

After saying this, your "Lynch all Liars" post has merit; however, your original case still doesn't.

[Crazy]

After saying this, your "Lynch all Liars" post has merit

Further on this, my original defense for "warning" townies not to quickhammer me was an oversight on my part. See, I wasn't worried about townies consciously quickhammer me, yet, your case implied that. I defended against the possible scenario that I

was

doing that instead of saying how I wasn't doing that.

But the thing is, the original defense still works. You're saying, as scum, I was trying to warn townies not to hammer me. The thing is, I wasn't even warning townies not to hammer me, but I provided an adequate defense even if that was the case. If as scum, I was talking about townies hammering, then why couldn't I be talking about that as town? It's true, I wasn't, but I actually could have bluffed it and said I

was

talking about that. Townies don't always say what they mean, after all. If, as scum, I said that to warn town not to hammer me... how do you know I couldn't have done the same thing as town to warn town not to hammer me? It's true; I wasn't, but it works.

[Crazy]

Ugh, I really screwed up in this game by giving a wrong defense. If I'm lynched, fine, if I'm not, well, then you've eliminated "Crazy/Plum" as a possible pairing, which is about the only likely scumteam involving me, since Zazie, Kmd, Kirroha, and OP have all pushed hard against me.

[Crazy]

Kmd, I'm just being realistic; no use begging now. I now think I should have pushed harder on a Kirroha lynch rather than a Zazie. My final thoughts:

I think Plum is pro-town. OP really needs to clarify his case on her, because I don't see it at all.

Rereading her recent posts, and her past posts, Zazie is actually probably pro-town. Yeah, sudden switch here, but except for her original case on me, her logic is actually decent. I also don't think most scum would have the guts to put someone at L-1 in the random stage.

Kmd, I'm not sure about. His vote on Kirroha is rather questionable... but if he was scum w/ Zazie, he'd probably just have voted me. He could be scum with OP, though.

I have no idea how to read OP at all... sorry

If Kmd is town, then Kirroha is almost definitely scum. However, I don't believe they are scum together, or else Kmd is really playing this well.



Scumpairs, IMO, with 5/5 being most likely.

Kirroha/OP - 5/5
Kirroha/Kmd - 2/5
Kirroha/Plum - 2/5
Kirroha/Zazie - 3/5
OP/Kmd - 5/5
OP/Plum - 2/5
OP/Zazie - 4/5
Kmd/Plum - 2/5
Kmd/Zazie - 4/5
Plum/Zazie - 1/5

[Crazy]

Deadline is tomorrow. I'm dead, OP. The only way I'm not is if me and Plum quicklynch Kmd right now, but if he's town, then that would just lead to our lynch tomorrow.

Seriously, if you want to WIFOM stuff, you could conclude that I was

town

by the way I'm acting now! I've been looking more pro-town in my most recent posts than I have been all game, which is why I was shocked by Kmd's vote.

[Crazy]

I seriously didn't see that coming. Very well done, guys. It looks like you fooled everyone.

[Crazy]

Wow, that could have ended up messy if Kirroha had continued posting. I saw the original post as a joke, but if she continued to push on Kmd, then the game would have to have been restarted.

Still, very good job, scum. Plum being on my side and Kmd on Zazie's side worked brilliantly. Stuff like that makes me regret not posting much on my scum quicktopics in the past.