Mini 170 - Time Travel Mafia, Game Over!

[Axelrod]

Cheers people!

Semi-Random vote for somebody not already voted for: Fuldu

I don't particularly care for random votes either.

[Axelrod]

Unvote: Fuldu

. I much prefer actually talking about things.

Shall we open up the floor for a discussion. I would say the topic of the moment is Armix and the possibility of reviving him. He is confirmed town which is very valuable in a game where other roles won't be revealed. The only downside is loss of time-fuel which could later be spent to try and revive a more important role (assuming we can identify one.) Also, if the "reviver" gets killed later, the re-vivification may be undone, but that is a risk with any role.

What do people think? I will admit I'm having trouble getting my head around it right now. Hopefully, it will become clearer as the game plays out.

[Axelrod]

That's two times you have referenced another game. I will confess I looked for one but couldn't find it? Can you tell me where it is? It would definitely be helpful for understanding how this all works.

[Axelrod]

Well I read that other time-travel game, which was interesting. Looks like several of the rules are different in this game, so strategy will obviously be different.

I will agree with Mgm that if Armix is to be revived it should be now, when the fuel cost is less. That means no Doc protection tonight, however, it that right? Only the Doc. can decide whether the expense is worth it.

[Axelrod]

Wait, we can buy Timefuel? You said do it now when time fuel costs less. Is this unique your role, is there something I missed, am I just not special?

It occurs to me (unfortunately, only now) that those who are "basic townie" roles don't know what Mgm, MOS, Electra and myself are talking about. The townie PM, already posted by math, doesn't explain how time fuel actually works. Therefore, I assume it is only those of us who got "time-traveling" roles who got the time-fuel explanation.

Since the mafia already know this I'll go ahead and explain it. Every day a person travels uses up a "unit" of time fuel. If you go back one day (or forward) it costs one unit. If you travel two days, like from day three back to day one, you use two units. Time-travelling roles have limited amounts of fuel (well mine does, and I assume everyone else's does, based on what math said.) That's why Mgm and myself said it would cost less to save Armix

now

, rather than later.

What this means is that several time-travelling players have just exposed themselves to the Mafia. The Mafia may not know what we can do, but we are definately going to be the targets. So, anyone else who can time-travel PLEASE SHUT UP ABOUT IT. We don't need to tell the Mafia any more than they already know.

[Axelrod]

How do you know that none of those people are basic townies? I, for example, could just be a townie that is making assumptions based on what my role pm says in addition to machanics from previous games and what others have said, etc. There's nothing that people have said that means they have more specialized time travel abilities...

Sorry, MOS. Re-reading your other post, it doesn't necessarily indicate a knowledge of time-travel fuel. I'm not trying to out you here. It's actually better if you are not a time-traveller.

I haven't voted yet. I don't have any strong suspicions. I do have a feeling that we should try to avoid "close" votes, however. Because the mafia might be able to later manipulate a lynch by time-travelling and killing one of the voters. Why are people voting for Sapphire?

[Axelrod]

I absolutely agree about the extension. Do I have to bold it?

Request Deadline Extension

Right now, it seems like we are floundering a bit, with some people not really discussing things at all. There are definately issues to talk about, like vote manipulation. I think the suggestion that we all vote the same person is interesting. Means that person is almost certainly never coming back, and if the mafia go back and time and kill them, no one else gets lynched. Is there a downside to this? The trick is getting everyone to agree, but why wouldn't a town agree, right?

[Axelrod]

Fishy, eh? Hmmmm.

Re-reading the thread does not tell me much. The most suspicious sounding posts were these:

hi, im back. sowi for not being around i've been busy.

eniwiez, i dont think we should worry about if we should save the townie yet. we should try to find a scum. its up to the doc anyways. and i got a question mathcam, is it only the doc that has a time machine? selected players or all of the town?

we still got plenty of time left to decide to save Armix, so we could try to solve something else first. oh wait? is there still a deadline? if so, then we dont got time. then im all fro savin him if whoever wants to save him wants to risk it.

That's just not very helpful, and potentially harmful. I have never played with Sapphire before, so maybe someone else can tell me if that's typical. Sapphire also didn't vote to extend the deadline, but just said "Yay!!" after it happened. So, anyways:

Vote SapphireVerde

This isn't a strong vote either, but it's the best I got at the present time.

[Axelrod]

As long as the "dead" people (who are supposed to be keeping up) get on board, there shouldn't be a way for the Mafia to manipulate the lynch. If we all vote for one person today, and then tonight the Doc goes back in time and "protects" Armlx night one. Then Armlx is revived and he gets to cast his vote today. If he casts it for the same person everyone else voted for, there is no problem.

The only risk, is if we somehow revive a Mafia who then doesn't cast a vote the same way as everyone else. But even then, we will see that the person has not followed the plan--their votes will be revealed. We then lynch them. As far as I can tell, there is no way to "revive" someone from a lynch, if the votes are at a sufficiant majority.

[Axelrod]

I don't know. I really don't have a strong feeling about Sapphire. At least she is posting. Frankly, I don't have a strong feeling about anyone. We could always fall back on lynching a lurker. SubtleTactics hasn't posted since March 19, I believe. But then again, it could just be the holiday.

Dragon Slayer is slightly suspicious for saying he would read up and to give him some time--on March22--and then not posting again until yesterday. Plus, when he did post, his comments were strange as Crola has observed--basically not saying much helpful.

With deadline approaching, I might change my vote, but probably only if it looks like one of those two is the alternate.

[Axelrod]

Um, DMI isn't even in this game anymore, remember? He was replaced by DragonSlayer. Seriously, you are not helping yourself here.

[Axelrod]

Gah! What happened? Two kills? Do the mafia have extra kills, or do we have a rogue vigilante on our hands?

I think Sapphire may have spoken truth. If so, however, I think there is a good chance Mgm was the actual Doc. If the mafia (or a rogue time-travelling vigilante) went back in time and killed Mgm night one, then Mgm wouldn't have gotten a protection in, I think. That might explain why Armix is still dead. (unless the actual Doc just decided not to revive him)(which means Mgm might actually have been mafia)(which means...bah.)

Another possibility, someone time travelled night one and made a kill night two.

Any way you look at it, this is not good.

[Axelrod]

Well my earlier post seems to have not gone through (what's up with these forums anyway?)

What I said was that only reviving townies was safer (assuming that we still have the capability to revive anyone at this point), but that I think there are also ways to identify the alignment of the dead--crime scene/corpse investigators. That kind of role only makes sense in a game like this.

Also, any "non-town" who turns up dead that we didn't lynch is probably innocent (unless there is a SK in this game, who travelled to night two to make his first kill, and obviously travelled again this night. Seems unlikely).

[Axelrod]

Ok Crola, maybe you didn't quite understand what I said. Let me try again. Reviving only townies is

safer

. Meaning this is the thing that is probably best to do. I thought Armix should have been revived last night. And the fact he wasn't makes me concerned that Mgm was the Doc.

BUT, there

will

be ways to identify the dead in this game. (No I am not just speculating here. I did go and read 2 old time travel games before and both had roles like that.) That kind of role makes perfect sense in a game like this. It makes sense in any game where roles are not revealed upon death. How else is the town to know when they get a mafia? It's just logical.

I

also

said the SK idea was

unlikely

. Meaning I don't think that's what happened. What I actually think happened is that a Vig. decided to use his kill last night.

That was quite a bit of twisting you just did. If I weren't pretty sure you were a basic townie, I might suspect you for that.

[Axelrod]

Okay, I am having serious connection issues for the past few days so I will post while I can.

Tactix I don't quite understand what you are saying. You are the vigilante, therefore you know that there is a SK in this game?

Answer this question then, which I can't tell from your posts. Have you killed anyone? You said you have acted already once but failed. What dies that mean? Have you tried to kill someone and had the effort fail?

Armix died night one and that was all.

Night 2 Fuldu died and someone traveled back to kill Mgm on night 1. I take it you are denying responsibility for Fuldu? If you didn't kill him and you are, in fact, the vigilante, then we very well may have a SK. Either that of the mafia got an additional kill.

Please answer those questions if you don't mind.

[Axelrod]

People who seem straight:

Crola (townie)
DarkLight140 (unknown)

People who are lurking:

Electra (time-traveller?)
Mastermind of Sin (time-traveller?)
Nannok/Uraj (claimed basic townie)
Dragon Slayer (unknown)

People I don't know about:

SubtleTaxtics (claimed Vigilante)

Dead People:

Armix (townie)
Mgm (unknown)
SapphireVerde (claimed back-up Doc w/o time machine)
Fuldu (townie)

From this, I would probably go with one of the lurkers. This game is hard enough to figure out without everyone participating. I do not think we have gotten a scum yet.

Vote: Mastermind of Sin

A mafia would be a time-traveller. Plus, he has been kind of useless as was mentioned above.

[Axelrod]

First of all, I'd like to apologize for not being here as often as I should be. I keep forgetting that this game exists. Secondly, I want to know why Axelrod thinks I am a time traveller. I see no indication that should lead you to believe that. As for Sapphire, I was corrected on my position about that. Uraj, what I said was just speculation about strategies the mafia might take. At the time, it seemed to me that the mafia would revive their own. I forgot that mafia reviving him would just make him more suspicious. With that in mind, if he IS innocent, I'm surprised the mafia didn't revive him to get him lynched again. As for the reason I said the confusion over it meant nothing, well I'll answer that once Axelrod justifies himself. As for his list of people, for it to be accurate, I'm guessing that every unknown person would have to be a time-traveller. Otherwise, it seems we have way too few time-travellers for a time-travel game. So that means the from my point of view, both DarkLight140 and Axelrod have a high probability of scum trying to get me lynched. So, I will

vote: DarkLight140

, since his most recent post seems designed to mislead. He claims my last to posts have been useless except for the only point I tried to make in them, and then claims I only have one other post that said anything. What he doesn't mention is that since I keep forgetting about this game, I only had 5 posts up to that point, meaning that I have an opening post, 3 posts that contribute, and 1 useless post.

I'm not sure why I am responding to this since, baring a late surge in the voting, you are getting lynched. But still: I have had a gut feeling you were a timetraveller from day one (note the "?", I never said I was positive). Interestingly, you

still

haven't denied it. With three votes on you and deadline fast approaching, this is the best defense you can muster? Voting for one of the less suspicious people in the game doesn't exactly help you either. Nor does your excuse for lurking.

Frankly, I am far more inclined to believe Tactic's claim of Vig. to your claim of...nothing.

As for Crola. He's aggressive, clearly, and if I weren't so sure he was a vanilla townie I might be suspicious, but I am and therefore I'm not.

Also, is it a good idea to have votes on multiple people at the end? Seems to me the safest thing is to have all the votes on the same person. Less chance of the mafia playing games with the lynch. I realize MOS probably isn't going to unvote Darklight, but I think that's okay, since (assuming he isn't mafia for purpose of this analysis) if the Mafia were to travel in time and kill MOS earlier, his vote on Darklight would also be removed. So, maybe Crola should unvote Tactics? Or Tactics should unvote Crola?

[Axelrod]

MOS you have had two nights to do whatever it is you do. Are you saying you will have no useful information for us until tomorrow? Why not?

The only reason I'm sure of Crola is because of his early statements indicating he did not understand the time-travel mechanic. And because I'm sure the mafia are time-travellers, ergo, he is not mafia.

[Axelrod]

I agree with Crola, just about all the points he made. No one else it could really be at this point.

Vote: SubtleTactics

[Axelrod]

I agree with Crola, just about all the points he made. No one else it could really be at this point.

Vote: SubtleTactics

[Axelrod]

I agree with Crola, just about all the points he made. No one else it could really be at this point.

Vote: SubtleTactics

[Axelrod]

Woo! Go mafia!

Frankly, I'm quite surprised it went this way. I thought the mafia was toast after day one when we both unintentionally outed ourselves as time-travellers. I even sent math a PM about it semi-complaining that it wasn't clear enough from the game set-up that basic townies didn't get an explanation of the mechanics of time fuel.

Obviously this did not prove to be fatal. Instead, this would appear to be a case of everything falling just the right way for the mafia. Not hit by SK or Vig. any night, and it appears we got help from both.

I'll definately have more comments later. 8)

[Axelrod]

Whoops! You're right Uraj. I completely missed that. I guess math did too.

The town was still in an extremely tough spot, however. With Crola voting Tactix and Tactix voting Crola, we actually had our pick at that point. The only way out would have been if you could have persuaded both of them to change their vote to one of us. Not saying you couldn't have done it, but it would have been tough.

So what happened anyway? Here's my guess:

Night 1:

We Picked Armlx. No time travelling.
Mgm travelled to Night 2 to kill Fuldu?

Night 2:
We travelled back to night one to kill Mgm.
Mgm's choice is nullified at this point, I think.
Darklight doesn't travel to revive Armlx. (why not?)
Tactix tries to kill Mgm, but can't because he is now dead night one.

Night 3:
We travel back to night one to kill DragonSlayer
Tactix travels back to night 1 to kill Darklight.
Darklight makes some choice which is nullified because he is now dead as of night one.

Time shields are inneffecitve because most kills occur on night one when townies can't protect themselves. We had six fuel-units total, meaning we could make a total of 4 night one kills. And that was our plan from the beginning.

[Axelrod]

Sorry Armlx. There was just as much of a chance of you having a "power" role as anyone else, and since I "knew" that you would inspect me should you turn out to be the Cop, you had to go.

Mgm: we went after you mainly because we knew for certain that you had a time travelling role, and were some kind of danger to us. Plus, with roles not being revealed, it increased the odds that any false-claim we might make would not get countered.

Interesting that the Doc only had one time-travel protect. I thought Mgm was the Doc after Armlx didn't get revived.

And I suspect that no townie used their shield to protect on night one, because from the way the PM read it looked like you

had

to send it into the future. That's what we were assuming as mafia anyway.