DHSDSM beta: Game Over.

[Ortohoops]

I, PokerFace, have never modded or played with anyone in the Raging Wishbone pairing

Vote: Raging Wishbone

Suspect the unexpected

Have you

modded or

played with at least one member of all other hydras?

Yes, I have.

<<PF

What can you tell me about team ortohoops, pocketface?

[Ortohoops]

What can you tell me about team ortohoops, pocketface?

Was there a point to this question?

Ftr, I'll be signing my posts.

- Incog.

Not really - more just playful banter before anything substancial develops. Are you going to tell me off for making a post that didn't contain an accusation?

[Ortohoops]

Not really - more just playful banter before anything substancial develops. Are you going to tell me off for making a post that didn't contain an accusation?

Actually, I initially thought your question served a purpose -- perhaps you were pointing out an inconsistency in PF's response on Page 1 (a sort of hey, you haven't played or modded with any of Ortohoops; care to explain why you haven't voted us?!) but judging by PF's response to your question, it appears as though you two

have

played with one another in two separate games. IMO, a post completely devoid of any real game-related content strikes me as anti-town at best and scummy at worst when this game's major mechanic has action phases governed by page counts and this is why I called you out about it.

Now, why are you deflecting suspicion back at me just for asking you this question?

Gut read isn't as conclusive as a post of making a scummy excuse.

Fair enough.

- Incog.

I'm not deflecting suspicion back at you at all, I'm preempting your response. Do you think random votes are game-related content?

[Ortohoops]

Completely random votes that are dependent on the dice tag = no.
Arbitrary votes used to kick the game off = yes.

You'd be amazed at how many seemingly "random" votes actually serve a purpose, hence they're game-related.

- Incog.

I still think dice tag votes can be as telling as selecting a name from the list. Although it's completely random, the action itself of using dice is still an active decision. Just the same way someone may choose to lurk through the 'random vote' phase or comepletely reject it.

It's almost kind of ironic that my non-game related post has sparked more game related discussion than almost all the random votes.

[Ortohoops]

6. Obv DGB. Protown vibe.

7. PescoLight voting for Mod. Wait, Pesco or FL?

9. Jscope votes Pesco for voting the mod. protown vibe.

21. Trostsky feels relaxed.

2. Raging Wisahbone is again trying to break a game.

27. Yep, trotsky feels town.

31. Pesco serious against serious comments. Protown vibe.

36. Incamnito against Ortohoops.

40.

DGBHoopla

votes Trotsky. Why? Meta? You thought it was rolf?

41. Reasonable question.

42. Yosariwen jumps agains PoketheAlpaca for "extra posting" in page 2. Kay, I realize where are you coming from but why the fixation on me?

Note that I do NOT want this to go to the extent that people are afraid to say stuff; everyone should be posting content, we do not want to get into a "short and sweet" situation where the game dies because people are afraid to post, and a lynch every 12 pages should NOT be that hard in any case. It's just complete spam posts like this one that look anti-town to me here.

Im afraid this is what is happening here. Random stage doesnt give much information and people are used to 5-6 pages of random wagons.

44. Apples and BVananas joins the wagon, agreeing with Yosariwn.

45. Oficially a wagon with Forg Jdging vote.

Not much to analyse here other than I have a town vibe coming from Trostsky, RRBone, Jscope. Others are neutrals and a slight scummy vibe from

DGBHoopla

.

Wait, why am I in DGB's hydra now? Are you sure you're paying attention to the game? I don't know how you can deal out suspicion when you don't even know who's making the posts!

--

To prevent this post existing for a mere correction, I want to use this space to talk about a couple of things. The posting rate in this game is flat - remember we still do have 13 pages to get through before a recharge. At the rate we're going at now, that will take ~12 days. This is plenty of time to make an accurate lynch decision.

I don't want to get to a stage where the sole basis of scumminess is from posting activity. Scaring people into thinking they'll get jumped upon for small posts will kill the game, and make it easier for scum. Use common sense to limit one-liners, yes, but I also think it's a cheap excuse for scum to attack players. We have more posts than we think, we really do.

--

At the moment, the PokeTheAlpaca wagon looks

very

opportunistic. Of the people on the wagon, A&B's vote stands out the most as a cheap way to jump on, especially when they were yet to post content. Kscope's meta suggests all is fine for him jumping on too, but I still don't like the baseless entry.

I'm going to

Vote: Apples and Bananas

on a gut read.

[Ortohoops]

I'm going to Vote: Apples and Bananas on a gut read.

Any reason why you don’t think the A&B wagon was opportunitic where the Alpaca wagon was? How strong a gut read can you get from a player with 2 posts?

This wagon looks far more promising. I'll explain my logic a little better though; I think 13 pages to get a lynch is far more space than we actually think for a game this size. That's 325 posts.

Of the last 10 completed mini's, the first lynch was taken

before

post 325 in 6 of those games. And I think it's generally well-known that D1's are most commonly the longest. These set-up's have just two less players than what we have now. Not to mention players were playing normally in those games, not trying to conserve posts.

My main point is I don't think scum would blatantly draw attention to themself in such an obvious way - or rather, I don't think those spam posts were intentionally made to waste posts, when a recharge target is so far off. There is little to no scum motivation behind it.

In fact I'd suggest scum would more likely be the players most wary of this infraction. It's a simple way for them to sit back early and jump on someone for fluff posting, knowing that the town is paranoid of this. And, I think A&B is most guilty of this crime.

[Ortohoops]

68 - Explains that he thinks wasting posts isn't scummy, and that Scum actually probably won't do it...WHAT? I think he knows exactly if the Scum are or aren't wasting posts.

Unvote, Vote: Ortohoops

I've already explained my stance on the value of posts. We're not even 5 pages into the game and we almost have a lynch - the town should hypothetically be aiming for 2-3 lynches per action phase, and we should be able to do it comfortably.

Lets make a safe presumption and say we only lynch twice before page 13 - scum have had their kill, and the Sk/vig has one too. We're down to 10 players, and the next phase still has 10 pages, where we should easily be able to lynch 2-3 players again with more information in the game. I really think we don't need to be so hasty, and certainly don't think the basis of cases should be determined by their signal:noise ratio, unless it's substancial.

Now, addressing your post more specifically; every time you generate suspicion on someone, you're basing it on the thought that scum are more likely to do x than town. The way you come to the conclusion I'm scum, is on the basis of this logic. It's simple - I think scum are more likely to avoid fluff posting early on, and take the opposite stance.

It's an easy way to force suspicion on players - they're preying on the paranoia of the town. I don't think scum would be stupid enough to come in and make fluff posts to start the game. Why would they want the early attention when they don't even know how hasty the town is going to be with post wasting? It's a stupid risk to jump in the limelight like that, and it's even stupider to not be aware that fluff posts would put them under pressure.

This is why I think scum would take the stance of jumping on

anything

that could be interpretted as a slight waste.

[Ortohoops]

We got prodded.

Hi, sorry for the delay, this game is harder to read than the other. I also gave alpha more attention because timing is more critical over there.

same.

PTA is

extremely

scummy. His first two posts are ok but when you get to page 2 he starts to get really scummy.

Post 28- contentless.

Post 46 is alright, but 48 on the same page is again, totally contentless, after he's already come under fire multiple times for making useless posts.

Post 50 is PBPA. I usually find these completely useless and irritating to read when they're done without quotes. I additionally dislike this post because it's mostly IIoA- largely a description of the posts rather than analysis or an expression of an attitude towards the relevant players. Additionally, he fails to reach any meaningful conclusion, saying

Not much to analyse here other than I have a town vibe coming from Trostsky, RRBone, Jscope. Others are neutrals and a slight scummy vibe from DGBHoopla.

So his scummiest is us with a "slight scummy vibe" (which is

not

well explained by his above PBPA ~edit: it seems he confused the two hydras Zaphod and Ortohoops).

He doesn't take a strong stand on anyone and fails to change his vote from the random phase, which is ironic because it's still

on

Trotsky, the very player he criticised someone else (Zaphod) for voting in his PBPA.

If Incamnito was any more town, my eyes would implode.

I know what you're saying about A&B, but for these hydras I do not have yet enough information to get a read, and I'm confident I will be able to get a read eventually.

With the Swine Flu going around... this is definitely a lurker I want to rattle.

vote: Death the Hogfather

*DGB*

If you don't have a read, don't post and or waste your vote.

Random stage over.

Unvote: Trotsky

To quote Frog Dodging, MAJOR HYPOCRISY ALERT.

For reference the hallmark of scum in another "posting dependent" game, RealTime Mafia - http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9865 - was hypocrisy in accusing others of "wasting words". The mechanic was number of words posted rather than number of posts, but I think it's analogous. PTA continues to fit the profile of scum.

I also dislike you, in the above quote, unvoting Trotsky before you find a new target to vote (when he was not in danger of being lynched). It reeks of scum trying to feign gradually changing their mind as town.

I don't get this either. Part of the case being expressed on A&B is their posting wasn't really adding much to the game. Saying Scum wouldn't do it because they'd get attacked for being scummy is stupid. Scum are more likly to be scummy. If scum were never scummy, how would we catch them? You sound like you want to attack those that conserve posts and you don't certainly seem to be doing or voting for that. Like you're being a hypocrite.

We apologise, we will vote the post-wasting scum now.

Unvote
Vote: PokeTheAlpaca

On another note:

I think more likely SK, but as long as you kill whoever we tell you to I think we'll be better off keeping you alive for now.

Unvote, vote Zaphod

. Something still feels off to me about DGB's play here, and it's more than being generally bummed.

Note: any player who's next post isn't counterclaiming Sens has effectively said he won't be.

-RR

This post is actually incorrect, because sex w/ shafted's wife club later makes the point that we don't really need a vig/SK to make extra kills because we can make as many lynches as we like as long as we don't post too much to do it. However, the fact RW was happy to let a claimed vig/SK live very strongly suggests to me he is town. Scum do

not

want extra killing roles alive.

We (I) I also dislike the above largely useless post of Death The Hogfather, but even more so that of Zmd, who has apparently still not realised why making useless posts like "hehe just responding to my prod" might be anti-town.

[Ortohoops]

We disagree with your opinion here. Both town and scum could want to keep a claimed Vig alive. That way the "vig" would kill people for them
* Scum would want "Vig" to wipe out town. Direct the "vig" to kill other townies
* Town would want "Vig" to kill scum
It is a null tell. If RW is town they clearly did not realize Town has infinite lynches and wouldn't need to direct the vig.

Respectfully disagree. Cross-kills (or additional, town-directed kills) = another way for scum to die. By eliminating another killing group scum substantially lower their probability of dying. This is also with the hindsight he actually was an SK- he still could have been a vig at that time. Are you actually suggesting scum are happy to leave potential vigs alive? It's not a sure town-tell but it's a strong one in this case.

No its called learning from your mistakes and suggesting others do the same. Did you or did you not start off bantering and then start posting otherwise?
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 53#1641253
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 34#1642534
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 47#1642847
Cause you did! And if you are going to condemn us then you must codemn your own play. You should be blaming yourself for doing what you now say is wrong!

A grand total of zero of those posts were made by me (ortolan), as evidenced by the purple writing. Furthermore, only the first was really potentially describable as a proper "fluff post"- the next two were responses to the first being called a "fluff post" (this is how we get into unfortunate WIFOM in these post/word-limited games about who the actual cause of the post-wasting is). And it was kind of a fair if not well thought-out comment. Although I didn't consult with Hoops prior to her saying that; I didn't actually think

I

'd played with you before; as I'd forgotten we'd both been in Explosive Mafia.

I will make it clear at this point that I (ortolan), as I said in my previous post had largely been neglecting this game in favour of Alpha, which is actually time-dependent. Hoops had I think made all our posts in this game before the previous. When I got prodded I had to make a post, and she wasn't around to consult with. So the last post is mine, and some of it contradicts what she said (I still haven't spoken with her). If she objects I will simply have to convince her that PTA is obv-scum

But, I am aware that some of what "we" have posted in this game may be construed as fluff, which was why I was willing to forgive it from the other hydras, in the early game, up to a point. However PTA's constant diatribes about "fluff posting" become beyond hypocritical when they make not one but two

completely

useless posts on page 2, followed by a scummy PBPA. Of course then comes the unprompted unvote, and now a contrived OMGUS.

The above should also serve as a comprehensive reply to J-Scope as far as I'm aware.

Yes accidently did some hydra confusion there. Though since those posts we have discussed and reached an opinion together.

We think Zaphod is scum. They have agreedwith others/wagon jumped at times convienant to when others have been pressuring them.

Trotsky or RW pressures them and they are in with a vote and post right after it. Its like they are running scared trying to grasp onto anything to stay a float.

Plums recent post has actual content but the A&B wagon has ended with A&B dead. Saying you find A&B scummy now does absolutly nothing. Its just a pathetic attempt to look like everybody else. "Oh look at me I'm catching up and I found A&B scummy too! We're just like the rest of the town, I swear!" Then you should have said that earlier when it mattered not wasted the threads times/posts with it now!

Your case on Zaphod, quite frankly, sucks. It seems to be based on the idea that not voting scum = scum. However we know this is not the case when A&B is a flipped SK. It also contains an extremely vague and unsubstantiated assertion about their overall playing style (bolded), and another (hypocritical) reference to "time/post" wasting.

Vote: PokeTheAlpaca

[Ortohoops]

I'm actually not liking either of the last two posts very much.

Ortohoops post 39

It's almost kind of ironic that my non-game related post has sparked more game related discussion than almost all the random votes.

I dislike implying credit for discussion by doing something questionable.

You haven't actually explained why her action was "questionable", you just seem to be bandwagoning with a whole bunch of other people who have attacked her "suggestions for approaching the game" style posting.

I will address this point here though, it's been brought up by many people and I've no doubt it's a genuine attitude that you can't rule out Hoops simply having tried to get through the game by making "suggestions to approaching the game" type posts while neglecting any actual scumhunting. I would bring up the counterpoint that she did exactly the same thing in Alpha, where you now know we were town, and where I think it had pro-town consequences. Additionally, I have come at things from a totally different tangent. Thus I think one of the main reasons we've been criticised for it is simply due the limited-posting-based nature of the game.

Also not quite seeing how the RVS questions from ortohoops to incamn and PtA to Yosariwen actually were meant to advance the game - they seem like questions for the sake of appearing to ask questions (also Yos never answered and PtA didn't seem to care)

What is the point here? What have you concluded from the fact they didn't bother to answer our questions?

Ortohoops 154 - ortolan is defending Hoopla's fluff with fluff.

You're bringing a startling lack of substance to the allegations against us. Once you label an original post as "fluff", that obligates us to respond do it, yet all you can say about the response is "oh that's fluff" again. You fail to go into any detail why. I've offered an explanation for why she might have posted what she did, I've agreed it might have been a bit sloppy, and additionally made the point that in the scheme of useless posting in this game we are probably in the bottom half of players anyhow. You haven't told me why my defence was fluff, and seem to want to draw us into a vicious circle whereby any defence of our previously labeled "fluff posting" is again labeled as "fluff posting"

The vote on PTA is appreciated, but your meritless attacks on us give me pause.

Yoswen's post is far scummier though.

I was actually about to hammer A&B around the end of page 4; I thought he was scum for a lot of reasons, especally shaft.ed's "if they weren't scum, scum would have killed someone not on the wagon to lynch them" argument. (Which, actually, apparently wasn't true, which is interesing.) But then I decided to wait and give them one more chance to respond first; and I didn't want to spend a post just to SAY "I'm thinking about hammering you" like I would in a normal game.

I don't understand what the point of telling us this was, unless you're trying to get after-the-fact townpoints by saying you were willing to let a claimed SK/vig live.

The following is very, very, very scummy:

On a side note, if we could get together a second lynch today (that is, before end of page 12), and basically try to get off about 2 lynches a day, I think it would work to our advanage; 2 lynches/day would give us a favorable town kill/scum kill ratio without totally shutting down town night actions, if we can manage it while not being stupid . We also ideally want to make sure that person has a chance to claim before being hammered, though, so I think we want to a bandwagon going quickly here. (Also, for this reason, I think the pro-town thing to do here is for us to vote for someone during this post, rather then posting and not using our vote, and I will, although as of this point I honestly haven't decided who yet.)

Basically, you want to lynch twice within the next four pages, and "want to get a bandwagon going quickly here." In your leaning scum list, you have both Raging Wishbone, and PokeTheAlpaca. PokeTheAlpaca's wagon had four votes on it, Raging Wishbone's had zero. I cannot understand how you can simultaneously want as many lynches as quickly as possible, and blatantly be trying to start a new wagon. This very, very much increases the probability of you being scum with PTA.

You also then blatantly equivocate between your contrary desires:

However, the ease of the wagon on PoketheAlpaca seems off to me; it seems too easy, no one seems to disagree with it at all. I can't quite explain it; I see scumtells and they look scummy on their own, but the wagon feels like it might be scum supported to me, or at least not scum opposed, if that makes sense; no one is arguing against this wagon, or trying to start a competing wagon, and that feels like a bad sign to me. Nuwen says she would like to see more people comment on this wagon.

So...now you want as many comments as possible on the wagon, prolonging the time it will take to lynch which you said just before you wanted to shorten? Your defence also makes no sense: "he's acting scummy but...I don't think he's scum".

Another point:

I'm not really getting Ortohoop's case against poke the alpaca in post 154; could you explain that again in your next post, please?

I find it hard to believe you could be so unconvinced by our case on PTA in 154 (you never actually say what you have wrong with it), yet independently also come to the conclusion that they are scummy (while not voting them).

*12. Raging Wishbone (Raging Rabbit+WaltWishbone): This one is mostly Nuwen's read; she dislikes the way that they put A&B at lynch -1 right after it was pointed out that putting someone at lynch -1 is dangerous, and also the way the other head then unvoted in order to try and use the kill. I agree; the post where Raging Wishbone unvotes and tries to get us to keep A&B alive so we can "direct their kill" is really anti-town to me, especally since town can lynch multiple times a day anyway. Nuwen also thinks their post 131 looks kind of "fluffy", in a scummy kind of way. (Funny side note: once slipped and called Pesco-Light "Pesco-Town". I have no idea if that means anything, but seems worth mentioning while I'm thinking abut it.)

Really don't like the misdirection in deferring the read to "mostly being Nuwen's" here. You also totally fail to explain what motivation a mafia player could have for wanting an extra town-directed kill in play. Your case is very, very weak; another reason you distracting from the PTA wagon is scummy.

*10. PoketheAlpaca (PokerFace+populartajo) : Along with the other things that have been pointed out, possible link to Raging Wishbone, in this post where he defends Raging wishbone.

We disagree with your opinion here. Both town and scum could want to keep a claimed Vig alive. That way the "vig" would kill people for them
* Scum would want "Vig" to wipe out town. Direct the "vig" to kill other townies
* Town would want "Vig" to kill scum
It is a null tell. If RW is town they clearly did not realize Town has infinite lynches and wouldn't need to direct the vig.

You've actually entirely misinterpreting this, because PTA was

not

defending RW

at all

, but actually trying to argue against our point that RW wanting to keep the SK/vig alive was a town-tell. This also shows how little sense your stance on RW/PTA makes, because you speculate about a connection between both RW and PTA, while deliberately neglecting one wagon in favour of starting another.

I think Yoswen is scum with PTA and is trying both to derail his wagon and tie RW to him if he gets lynched regardless and flips scum.

[Ortohoops]

It's very rare that I make a post containing a huge amount of detailed, carefully thought out, and extensivly explained analysis, to the extent that I just did, and someone's first reactions is "Woah, that post makes Yosarian look scummy!" So, yeah, I find your reaction there quite strange and unexpected. That's not "wifom", nor does it really have anything to do with my alignment.

This is still wifom for exactly the same reasons as previously stated- I do not know your alignment- it is your subjective assertion that your analysis was "carefully thought out and extensively explained".

It's odd, though, that you don't understand what I mean when I say that the wagon feels too easy when you yourself said almost the exact same thing earlier in the game.

A

different

person to me (ortolan) said that, I've already explained this.

Yos: my point against PTA in 154 was just that their Zaphod case as expressed there, was weak.

We think Zaphod is scum. They have agreedwith others/wagon jumped at times convienant to when others have been pressuring them.

Totally non-specific. The other point was that the fact they didn't vote an SK isn't inherently scummy for the same reasons PTA seemed to be suggesting, because they cannot be scum with the SK.

Frog: who posted 198 and 207 respectively (I'm guessing J-Dodge is the latter), because they demonstrate conflicting opinions of Yos. Are you going to stay that way? I know you tried to reconcile your opinion with your partner, but as a hydra where do you stand on Yos? You seem to be the only half a hydra who agrees with me about Yosariwen (except RW, whose attack on Yoswen was kind of internally contradictory).

What do you think of it in comparison to your will to go after post wasters. Do you believe that alone was a valid reason to go after A&B compared to the other reasons out there?

I have no idea what her opinion was there and can't ask her currently. What's the relevance anyway, we can't be scumbuddies busing the SK. And the little non-aggressive question in 211 to Yoswen by PTA is like pretending to still be a bit critical of your scumbuddy, exactly the same way J-Dodge played in Alpha.

I mean the only thing that scares me a bit is that you brought up that you had these intense aim chat logs, so you could have had half that post ready to go...but the rest was so perfect... I really think you are town.

Have you not yet been scarred enough by trying to clear people based on chat logs?

Trotsky is probably scum.

@Hoops, please post us your daytalks without the white blobs Sir, lol. now that Alpha is over you can discuss both games at the same time....

And you want potential role information about us why exactly? And you still think, despite what I pointed out in Alpha, and what J-Scope has acknowledged, that we can't just fake the logs if we want to anyway by editing our posts and wiping out the edit stamp??? This insistence on the chat logs is not only relatively unsportsmanlike, it has already actively hurt the town in one game.

I think Yoswen is scum with PTA and is trying both to derail his wagon and tie RW to him if he gets lynched regardless and flips scum.

Post. Rubs me the wrong way.

Brilliant commentary.

I beat the prod, please be wary with using them in future considering the nature of this game.

[Ortohoops]

Yoswen: points in 154 were:

- we attacked them for being hypocritical with word-wasting, they replied that "we" had wasted words, although clearly these posts were Hoops and the later posts were mine, and Hoops' posts were clearly never on the same level as some of the completely contentless posts they'd made.
- They were tunneling on Hoops for making "beginning game banter" posts while totally neglecting the fact other players, including themselves, had made

more

posts with even

less

content i.e. nothing.
- Lame attack on Zaphod because it relied on the theory they were reticent to vote an SK and only announced suspicions after the fact. However this does not function as a scum-tell because Zaphod cannot be scum with the SK, so this is a bizarre point to make.

4. To the best of my undestanding, the reason you suspect me because you think I'm scum with PTA who was trying to protect him. Is that still correct? Is your reason for suspecting me completly dependent on PTA's alignment?

Yes, my main reasons for suspecting you are the way you've responded to his wagon and tried to redirect votes from it. Didn't I say that earlier?

(Yes; PTA is no longer on the list, and Ortohoops now is on the list.)

Being brazen about your scummy/omgusy change in preferences does not make it less scummy.

- The reason we didn't comment on shaft.ed earlier was that I was rushing to get a post through before the prod and skimread the game. I noticed shaft.ed's death but didn't take into account its implications. I concede when I re-read his posts his biggest target of tunneling appears to be PTA (over multiple posts too, see e.g. 175 and 200), which makes PTA very unlikely to be scum with him. By extension, my case for you being PTA's scumbuddy and defending him less water. It's still quite possible one or the other is SK/mafia but this does put a dampener on my theory.

It's also worth noting that there's also a possible link between Ortohoops and my other main suspect, since Ortohoops attacked me for attacking RW.

How is it "worth noting"? Anyone reading the thread could see that we'd defended Raging Wishbone (note we have been less than impressed with more recent posts). It's not like this is original or insightful analysis. Did you actually have an issue with the content of our defence?

And I have no qualms with saying that I thought sex w/ was probably

the

towniest player, possible alongside Frog up until the point he died.

I am currently going to vote for Trotsky. I have seen little contribution from them from late, beyond getting into a locked you-or-me battle with DGB, which to be honest I would expect from either of them were they of either alignment. However that's all Trotsky has given us to work with recently. roflcopter has done little to and seems to have in fact made little effort to dispel perceptions of his deviation from his meta. This is exactly what got him vigged in the other game. Surely if he was town he would be consciously trying to deviate from his known anti-town meta, or at least be playing in a fashion approaching his normal aggressive self. Just saying "the mechanic is making us lurk" isn't a good retort- this applies of the posts he

is

actually making also. I know he has openly stated he doesn't consider himself as good a player as mafia as he is as town (but haven't seen his scum games except a bit of one where he was an SK- he won/got nominated for a scummy for it), which may explain why he is making little effort to emulate his usual aggressive play.

I'm also up for some Trotsky pressure. Trotsky, could you please address my earlier question with your next post.

Sounds like the way you'd treat your scumbuddy. As Frog points out he seems to be shaft.ed's "second" or at least top 3 suspect in 200 also, which is the typical placement of a scumbuddy.

Whom I'm willing to lynch now (update it as you post):
1. Zaphod Beeblebrox (1) Ojando
3. Zmd (2) Ojando, Ortohoops
4. Trotsky(4): nyballosulgniirkps, ZMD, Zaphod Beeblebrox, Ortohoops
5. Ojando (1): ZMD
7. Yosariwen (1): nybaloosulgniirkps
8. Ortohoops (1): ZMD
10. PoketheAlpaca (0):
11. nyballosulgniirkps (0):
12. Raging Wishbone (2): Zaphod Beeblebrox, Ojando
13. J-Scope (0):
14. Frog Dodging (0):

I have added our name to Zmd and Trotsky. I am not getting helpful/town vibes from Zmd. I am aware his being scum may well be mutually exclusive with Trotsky.

The votecount is strangely at odds with this list also.

Unvote
Vote: Trotsky

[Ortohoops]

Posting to avoid prod

@ Yoswen (263): you speculate about a possible link between me and shaft.ed but you seem to agree there was no indication his motivations were scummy until he died. This is contradictory. If he was using pro-town logic and happened to be scum and I have also used pro-town logic, this does not entail a link between us.

The post seemed like an emotional over-reaction to my post, except I don't understand why my attack on RW would make you emotional or angry. One possible expliation could be a link between you and RW.

Do scum typically act aggressively and emotionally to you voting their scumbuddies? Not in my experience. Also I'm not aware of where I/we acted emotionally from memory.

@ RW as far as I can see your vote on J-Scope is weak. Please change to Trotsky

Dude is tht your pic you looks like a wanna be band member for Modern English or the Cure... gah try harder there too. Wink

Uh...that's Matt Damon

If anybody else has figured out the mechanic of this game please enlighten us all. Smile

Figured out the mechanic? What?

[Ortohoops]

I CANT vote ZAPHOD (Although my oarner wanted too)...maybe you can but I wont because she WROTE in this BETA game the "reason she was leaving mafiascum forever was because of being accussed of being scum when she was TOWN?"... I mean don't that mean nothing to you?

That is not a reason to not vote her at all. I equally dislike being viewed as scum when I'm town but I'm not going to use that as leverage or expect anyone else to go easy on me because of it, and I wouldn't treat someone lighter as a result. That is not to say I think Zaphod is scum.

Why has Trotsky not claimed yet? As per my count he is on L-2 not L-1 but I

might

be wrong. More votes on the rabbit of the non-raging variety please.

[Ortohoops]

PTA: I largely stopped discussing you because of the implications of SSWC's flip. He was tunneling on you ergo you can't be scum with him therefore you are not mafia. Therefore you also cannot be Yoswen's partner. If you are scum you are an SK.

In reference to 254,

From memory the argument over Zaphod was a fairly minor point anyway, I can see Plum commenting on something just as it occurred to her during her re-read anyway.

Not sure what your last sentence refers to since J-dodge was not scum in Alpha.

I meant J-Scope, sorry.

This point is also in relation to how some of hoopla's post could be seen as fluff while you went on the accuse others of fluff.

I really, really have already dealt with this. I said some of what she said might be construed as fluff, and she should have been more careful. However you're comparing apples with oranges. She asked various meta/pregame questions, never did she post anything with no content. The people I attacked posted absolutely no content and did it on more than one occasion. And, again, it was two different people- she made the posts which might wrongly be construed as fluff, I attacked other people for doing so. Additionally in your case not only were you posting fluff but you were hypocritically attacking other people for doing so. The differences were:

1) Hoops "fluff posts" weren't fluff in the same way.
2) Hers didn't have the same frequency.
3) You were actually attacking other people strongly for doing it while doing it yourself.
4) It was Hoops that did it, not me.

Re-reading Hoops early posts I think they were a bit deliberately abrasive and maybe not well thought-out because of the attacks they could leave us open to. I don't see how they could have a scum agenda behind them though, she is drawing a lot of attention to us by both her comments and by the way she is posting in light of the rules.

SWSWC's view of you here:

Orto

Your back and forth with Yos is stifling game conversation. While I feel your points are valid, you're sidetracking discussion which is antitown. I also don't like that you feel the need to reply to every single point against you. Do you still find PtA most likely scum? If so is Yos a likely buddy or a misguided townie?

Orto scummy here. SWSSC agress that he has valid points but also he is called antitown. The last two questions feel fabricated.

doesn't sit well we me or tajo

That's great. Why?

[Ortohoops]

I'm pretty sure there's a lot of scum on Trotsky's wagon, because beyond gut reads, there wasn't much of a case, roflcopter's habit of lurking as scum gave him away.

I disagree with the conclusion because I disagree with the premise that "there wasn't much of a case". FYI I have played several games with rofl as town previously- Lynch All Lurkers, Hunchback of Notre Dame and RealTime Mafia - in all he was extremely aggressive. I also saw a bit of a game where he was an SK which he got nominated for a scummy for, perhaps won it but I can't recall how he played that game. Anyways, in this and Alpha he played totally different (granted it's only one half of the hydra); which is why he got vigged in that and lynched in this. I have also seen him comment that he finds it harder to play as scum. Essentially it's very hard to fake such aggressiveness which is a stalwart of his town play, when scum. I don't actually think you're scummy for pushing this argument because it's counterintuitive anyway (and it's the same thing PTA attacked you for on A&B) and you're drawing attention to yourself by brazenly saying "I wish I was on this wagon, I did have a gut read on rofl but the people who did vote him are opportunistic scum". I do however think a position on the wagon is a null-tell if anything.

Although, to be fair, Zmd is a fantastic lynch and he was on the wagon. His main behaviour this game has been lurking, taking issue with semantics, lurking; with a side of active-lurking. Also stuff like insisting Death the Hogfather is still one of his suspects in 224 even though he had long been replaced. Lazy scum. Read his replies, they're all pretty much contentless or bad OMGUSes on Frog Dodging.

Vote: Zmd

[Ortohoops]

Vote: Zmd

[Ortohoops]

PTA: I (ortolan) am playing this game solely at present, Hoops left us open to attacks at the beginning of the game (albeit ones which aren't warranted); because they could be spun as similar to fluff posts

Yes, I think your case on Zaphod trying to come across like everyone else was weak.

Yes, not only Zmd comes across as scummy but RW now.

Because they've claimed to doctor someone they tried to paint with suspicion for not being night-killed. I also see little basis for their claimed protect on PTA. Thus I am ready to lynch, simply waiting PR resolution a la PTA's 362.

[Ortohoops]

Vote: Zmd

quicklynch gogo

==========[]

[Ortohoops]

hasn't really been refuted or acknowledged by them since I made the case

What part haven't we replied to? Yes we agreed with what SWSWC said early in the game, good catch. But do you have anything ultimately more substantial to your case than "well you might have been subtly trying to push the town in the same direction?" which is totally unprovable. I believe I've responded to all your points in previous posts.

About RW: I didn't think he was scum until he claimed doctor- at that point his lynch was perfectly justified because his claimed actions made no sense as a town doctor. I'm not sure of the timing of the votes but I would only really consider those made before that claim potentially scummy.

I did speak with tajo yesterday via pm about his earlier comment. I asked him what he didn't like about the back and forth between ZMD and Zaphod. He told me he felt that part of it was coming accross as though it was forced. He said he'd try to outline his thoughts to me later when he got out of the office. I am yet to here back from him since so I guess he'll show me and or the rest of you guys what he means soon enough.

According to that logic he thinks they're both scum attempting a contrived bus (which makes little sense to me at this stage of the game when they could endgame with two mislynches). So why isn't he considering a vote on one or the other? (I recommend Zmd).

Zaphod am I right in thinking 397 was facetious, as asked in 399? Do you plan on voting Zmd in the near future?

Mod: I think Zmd has three votes- me Frog and nyb

[Ortohoops]

There's not much I'm learning from ZMD's gut opinions now that he's known town. I do agree on some of his rankings like in this post:

I'd be ok lynching Zaphod or JScope. I'd be willing to lynch ny. I could compromise on Ojando or Ortohoops if needed. I will NOT vote FD or PtA (or myself obviously).

Except move nyballs below Ojando and Ortohoops because I don't have reason to place nyballs as scum currently, and my bad feelings about Ojando and Orto.

It's interesting that you apparently agree with some of his rankings even though he has you as top 2/equal first in his suspects. You need to explain why you could both be town and he could have a similar mentality to you about finding the scum, but place you so highly in his suspects.

I also have a bad feeling about Ortohoops and it starts with how long it took for them after shaft.ed died for them to comment on it or use that knowledge to scumhunt.

Their first post after the shaft.ed flip was almost 5 days but in that post they didn't mention shaft.ed at all. Not even to say they will go and look for connections, etc.

@Orto: Why didn't you acknowledge the flip in that first post?

If you re-read my subsequent posts you'll see you're entirely re-treading old ground. I made that post because I was in a rush to beat the prod, if you read my next post I addressed this point after Yos brought it up. When you say your bad feeling "starts" at that point- is there any more substance to it, or are you just re-treading the points Yos and PTA already made?

The only really plausible explanation for the lack of a kill for me is roleblocker or doctor involvement. The only alternative is lazy scum or scum deliberately submitting a no kill. We already had a kill on Yoswen in the previous day after both SKs were dead which means we're not in some bizarre scenario with 2 mafia doctors or anything (if there were two mafia doctors neither could submit the kill).

[Ortohoops]

You are overreacting. I have not been so on your case. I haven't called you scummy once. I'm not trying to find ways to call you scum.

The "you are overreacting" here implies you know I'm town and have reacted naturally towards you (although you claim my reaction is unjustified).

Shaft.ed didn't mention nyballs.

That doesn't preclude them being buddies at all.

Are you trying to make a point with our posts being adjacent? I think nyballs' tone can be explained by the fact he was taking the entire post to suspect ZMD, so naturally he'd agree with my points to further his position and disagree with ZMD to further his position. This could be a valid point against nyballs actually.

To be frank normally I would never view mere post adjacency as a scum-tell. But it happened

so

many times when I re-read you two it was uncanny. I'm aware that scum normally would deliberately avoid it so that it wouldn't be a scum-tell but it just happened constantly when I re-read you two, far more than luck would suggest.

I'm not looking for both scum at the same time in case one is wrong. I'm still looking for people individually.

EVERYONE: Is it a good or bad strategy to be looking for both scum right through connections now?

I am very strongly of the opinion that you need to be putting forward a hypothesised actual scum-pair now. If we restrict ourselves to making individual scum-cases it's just another way the two scum can easily exploit "behavioural tells" on a townie and therefore end-game. I dislike behavioural tells over actual "links to scum" tells in general though.

But I'm not scum, and my disdain for being lynched as town has helped me avoid it for 19 months now, for a total of 3, and I have no intention of changing that for this game.

Honestly, this sentence serves no practical purpose other than to say "hehe I'm not scum and thus will break my record if you lynch me".

nyb: who do you think the scum-pair is if you're not in it?

I can see some of what orto is saying in terms of them agreeing with each other but the idea J-scope is prompting Nyball to post is a bit far-fetched. Deep South Format allows scum to day talk so if j-scope wanted to prompt his buddy to post he'd pm them or use a quick topic outside the game. He wouldn't prompt them in the game thread.

Well they might be asking them to post in order that we draw precisely the conclusion you have "they would have just asked them in their quicktopic". Do you not find the sheer number of instances of adjacent posts between the two out of the ordinary?

Trying to connect players is a strategy that can find scum but it works best when you already know one players alignment. I don't think what SWSWC said about nyball or j-scope was telling. And at the moment we don't know either nyball or j-scope alignment so I don't think there is much to be gleaned. Orto trying to connect them before one flips makes me wonder if Orto already knows one of their alignments and or sees nyballs lynch inevitable.

That's a big stretch. If you didn't notice I am advocating looking for scum-pairings. If we scumhunt individually it makes it way easier for the two scum to build a case against a townie with "behavioural tells" which then gets populous support. If someone has no viable buddies then I'm willing to conclude they're not scum, and anyone arguing otherwise is probably scum themselves.

Clearly according to you (PTA) we haven't mentioned nyb much. That is a point I can't refute. All I know is I'm town and am looking for scum. If I see something as pointing to two people being more likely scum, even if ironically I've apparently committed the same thing myself; I'm still going to point it out. Do you have an actual problem with the methodology/rationale being used- if we interacted with nyb in the same way as J-Scope, does that make us both equally likely to be scum; or is it just a null-tell in both cases? Please clarify your opinion.

We got 7 alive so is its not exactly mylo or am i miscounting/forgetting something.

scum day-kill = 6 alive, lynch = 5 alive, scum day-kill tomorrow = 4 alive = end-game. Frankly I'm skeptical of anyone claiming not to be aware of this.

I find PTA's eagerness to lynch nyb unsettling. They've been harking on about our links to SWSC all game, trying to ensure we're constantly on the back foot but they've never taken it very far beyond voting or stating their readiness to vote us. They've never actually tried to drum up popular support to lynch us, and even now apparently don't suspect us enough to neglect to lynch nyb. I'm concerned PTA has been using us all game as a way of avoiding doing real scum-hunting or committing scum-slips. Nothing else could explain the number of attack posts they've made against us while doing little towards getting us lynched. Also I'm unsettled by J-Scope agreeing with me on nyb (on one point at least):

Are you trying to make a point with our posts being adjacent? I think nyballs' tone can be explained by the fact he was taking the entire post to suspect ZMD, so naturally he'd agree with my points to further his position and disagree with ZMD to further his position. This could be a valid point against nyballs actually.

I would like some clarification on where J-Scope stands on nyb.

[Ortohoops]

Vote: no lynch

[Ortohoops]

4 Doctors?

Seeing as we're divided between doctor and vanilla claims I'm inclined to think scum wouldn't have put all their eggs in one basket and would have one doctor and one vanilla (although depending on whether any specific claimed-doctor is scum this might not have been obvious play because they didn't know how many doctors were going to claim.) Ojando

did

claim doctor first but that was only after I'd made the statement "you are either scum or the doctor". I'm not sure about nyb and Frog Dodging. That said none of their role PMs look obviously doctored This is complicated by the fact only Frog Dodging's role pm is in the same format as ours as the other two were replacees. The fact they all provided protection receipts I think pretty much guarantees they are doctors of some variety, although one could very very plausibly be a mafia doctor.

I don't like using this as a tell but the gap between 603 and 606 by Frod Dodging of 18 minutes versus the gap after the requested role pm screenshot was far more substantial. Meh. If I'm onto something this would imply Frog Dodging is a mafia doctor, but I'm not sure if this is even valid at all.

[Ortohoops]

Ojando, why did you not consider protecting Yosariwen during action phase 1 (for action phase 2)?

Also why are the inbox and sentbox links in your 589 now "permission denied"?

Also I don't get why nyb protecting Frog Dodging is meant to be scummy. I may very well have done so and Ojando has stated they considered protecting him also.

I'm not so sure I buy that. In the post where you suggest ojando is doc or scum you don't say anything else about them. You mostly interact with me there. You just say that one comment/line in that one post about them and that is how it was simular to what nuwen said in the alpha game.

I was shocked by the scumminess of the comment.

[Ortohoops]

can I see a summary of the case on nyb from one of you zealous people please? sorry for triple-posting.

[Ortohoops]

I am about to send in a protect for Ojando, and hope that they will do the same to save us and hopefully set up an infinite protect circle up in this bitch.

What do you see as being the benefit of this?

Vote: Frog Dodging

I support this lynch over nyb, it's up to Ojando