Open 142: True Love (Game Over) before 784

[Percy]

Oh my god, you suck!

Vote: MiteyMouse

[Percy]

Some people think the RVS is there to get us out of the RVS as quickly as possible; someone jumps on the first player to do anything that can be mildly construed as anti-town, and then we start talking about the ensuing bandwagon/desire to move out of the RVS/whatever.

I'm not one of those people. I think the RVS is a good way to start conversations. Anyone who thinks that they have anything more than the weakest read on someone at this point is playing with information that the town just doesn't have. The RVS sees people getting votes for reasons they can't fathom, and this leads to panic and irrational play, scum's desire to focus on particular players and so forth, from which we deduce scumtells. Given enough time we can start to build sensible cases, rather than getting out of the RVS with the first knee-jerk case that crops up, leaving most of the playerbase completely ignored.

So, what have we got so far?

There are two votes on the table that I would consider worthy of attention.

The first:
Kmd voted for Zazier, and there is reasonable meta to say that he would always vote Zazier in the RVS (and Kmd has conceded as much). Korts is correct in saying that this vote is not constructive - it produces no information for the town if you were to vote for Zazier whether you're scum with her, scum without her, or town. Thus Kmd's first vote was not used to produce information, it was simply so that Kmd could be seen to be voting.

Korts has described it as anti-town, when I would say it's just not pro-town. Korts has voted Kmd as a result of this exchange. I believe this situation can be (mostly) resolved when Kmd votes for someone else; or, he could stubbornly cling to his vote on Zazier, and if he decides to do so, I'd like to hear more detailed reasons as to why this will produce good info for the town.


The second:
sonicchaos has put down a vote on Korts and

described

it as random, when it's quite hard not to see it as a pressure vote. sonic, was there any reason you voted Korts rather than Kmd?

(Sidenote: There are

2

town/town pairs and 2 scum/town pairs, but sonic's observation that we don't have a scum/scum pair is accurate.)

Unvote
Vote: Debonair Danny DiPietro

[Percy]

Because Teller is more awesome than Penn.

Kmd, why didn't you address the rest of my post?

[Percy]

Did you even read my post?

I think the RVS is a good way to start conversations. Anyone who thinks that they have anything more than the weakest read on someone at this point is playing with information that the town just doesn't have. The RVS sees people getting votes for reasons they can't fathom, and this leads to panic and irrational play, scum's desire to focus on particular players and so forth, from which we deduce scumtells.

Given enough time we can start to build sensible cases, rather than getting out of the RVS with the first knee-jerk case that crops up, leaving most of the playerbase completely ignored

.

How about I quote the other part that you've ignored twice now:

I believe this situation can be (mostly) resolved when Kmd votes for someone else; or, he could stubbornly cling to his vote on Zazier, and if he decides to do so, I'd like to hear more detailed reasons as to why this will produce good info for the town.

---

I disagree with Korts and Percy's contention that Kmd's vote didn't supply us with information, it let us know that Kmd is playing to his meta. This may or may not be useful information, but it's not significantly more or less information than any other random vote would.

I very much doubt that it will be useful information, which is my point - the "always vote Zazier" is not a useful pro-town meta to have established.

[Percy]

I voted Korts and not kmd because
1. From what Ive heard, kmd does it every game, so I don't see how it could be considered a scumtell, unless kmd was mafia every time it happened.
2. I don't want to die day 1.

1. Can I therefore interpret your statement as "Kmd shouldn't be voted for based on that scumtell, therefore Korts is voting him for scummy reasons"?
2. How is this relevant, at all, to the question that I posed? Why on earth does voting for Korts help you to stay alive today?

Yeah, I read it. But aren't "knee-jerk" cases the thing that leads to "sensible cases"? Also, isn't a knee-jerk vote better than random voting?

Can a "knee-jerk" case lead to a sensible case? Yes.
Can a "knee-jerk" case lead to a horrible case? Also yes.
I prefer for there to be some more information out there before we start attacking people for silly things. The RVS is a great way to provide this information. As I stated, the scum hate the RVS, as it's much harder to manipulate than stupid cases, especially those made by or against bad players.

My vote will give info when I feel there is info to give.

What the hell does this even mean? Are you saying that you won't participate in the RVS? If so, why vote at all? Or are you saying that you agree with my position, except you've just got a placeholder vote?

BTW note that Percy's post took a middle of the road stance on every issue that was brought up. On the fence is a good spot for scum to be enjoying the view from.

Sorry Korts, but this is crap. I didn't take a strong view on any issue, because I don't have enough information to take a strong view (which includes my lack of serious voting). Instead, I asked questions and stated my opinion. The fact that I didn't charge out of the gate and agree with one of you 100% on page 2 doesn't even come close to a scumtell.

I thought there was enough information that he covered that he could have voted. He could have voted me for an "anti-town" vote. He could have voted you for your reaction to it. He could have voted Sonic for voting you. He could have voted someone for lurking. Sure, non of these are reasons to lynch. But all four of these votes would have brought up some discussion and some debate. Random voting when he did really didn't.

I've already addressed why I like to random vote. Sorry that you don't like the RVS, but it's not a scumtell to like the information that the RVS brings. I'm not saying that we should never leave the RVS (and if you thought that was the case then you are a moron); additionally, random voting doesn't proclude me from commenting on issues that develop and cases that other people construct. That is what provokes debate and discussion, not someone's name in bold.

And on a second read, I see a lot of IIOA in that post of Percy's that you mentioned. It looks like he's just recapping the game and not really adding anything to it.

Nice try. I actually take time to analyse both your position and Korts' vote, as well as calling out sonicchaos on his non-random "random" vote. Calling it IIoA is ridiculous.

Kirroha also seems happy to post obvious things, but without the content to back it up. Her post 49 is basically just providing all the possible scum pairings without even attempting any preliminary analysis. Again, it looks busy, but it isn't really helpful to the town.

QFT. I think the game mechanics will come into play later in the day, and we don't need to start analysing pairings just yet.

However, I will note that if someone is pushing hard for their lover's lynch, then it's a good indication of their towniness. There's WIFOM involved, but it's also very dangerous for the scum to engage in this kind of attack as a bluff.

@kirroha: You didn't answer Kmd's question. Please do so.

I also find it interesting that Kmd was satisfied with kirroha's "pick someone who hasn't posted, say their name and then say nothing about the game" approach to his question.

@Kmd: What is your opinion of ZazieR's play so far?

[Percy]

Just had to do a huge re-read-and-post another game I'm in, and I'm completely mafia'd out today. I will post tomorrow!

[Percy]

I didn't ask for your agreement out of the gate; but if exaggeration is necessary somewhere, it is most definitely in the early game. You need to take the most definitive stance when there is very little to go on, otherwise the game will flounder in uncertainty--which helps the scum.

So you're saying that bad reasoning and construction of poor cases is the best way to start the day? I fundamentally disagree.

his post 30 is a good case of only information and not taking a stance. This was not the case in the games I've seen him as town (open 98 and twice in mafia 87). This however was the case in mini 751 (Suzumiya Haruhi Mafia modded by Tar).

Now let me deal with the meta stuff straight off the bat. Mafia 87 is a great example of why I am more cautious about launching at people. Note that a lot of the first day is me fighting with Scheherazade, and both of us were town. What a clusterfuck that was. Nowadays, I prefer to wait a little bit. It's not scummy to wait for a few pages before you start throwing your weight around. Advocating caution is not a scumtell.

We have two, maybe three choices to make. We have to get at least two of them right. And that's it. That's all the information we're going to get. No roles, NKs, or anything else that might help us out. Now why the hell do you want to rush into things?

So, if I as third party role would vote Korts, what would that give as information?
And if Kevin would vote DDD as scum, what would that give as information?

I don't see how a random vote gives information, so please explain.

I don't know what you mean by "third party role", and why would Kevin vote DDD as scum? That's the important part of the information we can gather.

Random voting is not truly random. That's how you get information from it.

So you think someone isn't producing info for the town, and therefore you vote someone random? Makes lots of sense...

Yeah, it does. A player, once corrected or called out on something, can change their playstyle and play protown. I voted DDD to make sure we didn't get tunnelled too soon, and to put someone on two votes just to see how they reacted.

You may have given your opinion, but you were still on the fence. You said Kmd's vote was not pro-town. That to me, is repeating Korts words, but only nicer. You clearly did not agree with Kevin's vote, yet you're saying that if he changes his vote, all will be forgiven. That's clearly not taking a stance.

I didn't like the vote. I said as much. I invited him to change his vote, and he hasn't. See below.

You've been here once (open 98). And this time, you (and Korts as well) are giving 'advice' to the scum. This makes lots of sense...

What do you mean by "been here once"? And I'm not giving advice to the scum - I'm pointing out that the strongest voice in anyone's lynch will be that person's partner. If the partner is gung ho, "let's lynch my lover", then we probably should. Do you disagree?

The possibility of a case being horrible is NOT a reason not to pursue cases.

The sooner a game is out of the RVS, the better.

No, it's not a reason to not pursue cases. It

is

a reason to take everything that everyone says with a grain of salt. Stop trying to get me to be irrational, because all it will do is add to the informationless chaos. I'll call things how I see them. I won't exaggerate.

I made my vote in the RVS. I meant when something serious came up, I'd place a real vote instead of just my jokevote.

I think this was exactly Korts' original point. Your vote means nothing, you didn't want to achieve anything by it, so why vote at all? The only reason you would vote ZazieR is to have a 'placeholder' vote, knowing that it will achieve nothing. You're still insisting that it doesn't mean anything. Thus, I'm happy to upgrade my initial reservations about "not pro-town" to "anti-town" and

Unvote, Vote: Kmd4390

.

I also find it interesting that Kmd was satisfied with kirroha's "pick someone who hasn't posted, say their name and then say nothing about the game" approach to his question.

I find it even more interesting that you ignored this comment of mine.

You state what happened. You don't take any kind of stance. It's textbook IIOA.

Er, no it's not. I analysed the situation, and didn't take a strong stance because there wasn't one to take. IIoA is not fence-sitting scumtell, it's a "not intepreting what's happening in the game and stating your opinions about it" scumtell. I certainly interpreted what was going on, I just didn't express a

strong

opinion.

Percy, I'm very sure Zaz is town. She is questioning like she normally does as town.

Oh, I'm

very

happy with my vote on you. Why on earth are you defending ZazieR, given that she's not under threat at all,

and

using meta that cannot possibly tell us anything? Even if I concede that she's playing how she normally plays, she's a smart player and could easily fake her meta. This comment basically boils down to "trust me, she's town", and that's not unnecessary at this point, and also a crap argument. This is much worse than kirroha's buddying up to me.

Percy seems to not want to take stances. I see that as a major scum tell normally, and with the meta provided by Zaz, it makes it even more damning.

Hilarious. Did you even read my other games? What exactly about my play in the other games makes you think I'm scummy? Come on, be specific.

1) He's breaking up the fight because he knows well that it makes absolutely no sense. Pro-town and most likely, and this is why I unvoted him.
2) He is Korts's scumbuddy, and is trying to defend him from being lynched. Also, he voted Korts later on as distancing. This possibility doesn't make much sense, as if he's trying to break up the fight and protect Korts, his post won't have a sort-of "Korts, are you scum?" kind of feel to it.
3) He is scum while Korts and Kmd are Town, and since he's Kmd's lover, he doesn't want Kmd to get lynched, as it would result in his own death, and he doesn't want that. I also think this possibility is not very possible in this situation, as Kmd does not seem to be suspicious to anyone, and it is more likely for Korts to be suspected for his flawed logic.

These are the only possibilities, and 2) and 3)'s possibilities are very slim, so that's why I find him quite pro-town.

This says to me that you start off with the assumption that sonic is pro-town. If he's scum with Korts, then of course he's going to kind of attack Korts while breaking up the fight. If he's scum on his own, then he'd want to break up the fight, and maybe he jumped in too early, or a thousand other things. You're too quick to dismiss the scum possibilities, and too quick in concluding that he's protown.

Also, I have to agree with ZazieR's opinion of kirroha's buddying up to me. I don't think I've played a stellar game so far, so why does she want to make it look like I'm better than I've been playing?

kirroha, make sure you say who you're quoting when you quote. It makes it much easier to read.

Incoming opinion: I think that kirroha's initial post was quite scummy. However, I'm happy with her answers and clarifications right now. I'm worried that Korts is so ready to kill off another player, when we have other players (sonic, mitey, DDD) who have yet to generate any real content for us to sink our teeth into. He's jumped on some legitimate scumtells, but now he's acting like he's certain, and that's crap.

FoS: Korts

.

I also would like DDD to clarify what he finds scummy about kirroha's posts, and whether his scumread is getting bigger or smaller as she continues to post.

But anyway, I've got good news
DDD has told me he's not scum. Which means we only have to check the three other pairs to win. This should be easy

What exactly is the point of this post?

[Percy]

and that's not unnecessary at this point

EBWOP: "and that's not

un

necessary at this point".

[Percy]

FoS: DDD.

Lurking is anti-town. I have no idea why you would post how chummy and well versed in some player's meta you are, without commenting on the game itself, especially when questions have been posed to you. Your wagon-jump left a sour taste in my mouth as well; I thought "he's probably just applying pressure", but I'm less satisfied with this pro-town explanation now.


Welcome, Amished!

[Percy]

OK, perhaps I should be more specific. Lurker was a poor choice of word.

I mean to say you've been vague, which is as bad as lurking in my mind (and perhaps more dangerous). You jumped on the kirroha wagon for vague reasons (deliberately, apparently) or ones that had already been said that you heavily paraphrased; the one original reason you did pick out was rather silly. I didn't like your post before your last one, because it didn't engage with the game in any meaningful way.

Thus, my FoS.

EBWOP: from the potential mislynch.

Do you think that this statement of yours is more or less scummy than kirroha's:

Or you're just trying to convince the all the townies to vote for me?

?

[Percy]

I voted kirroha for vague reasons, intentionally. The "heavily paraphrased" and "silly" were part of point/counterpoint after the vote had already been placed and were not reasons for placing or even sustaining my vote.

As far as I can tell, your isolation of the 'slip up' of kirroha is the only original reason you've given for voting on the kirroha wagon. The rest of the time, you have been extremely evasive. Are you still unwilling to disclose the reasons for your vote?

I didn't like your post before your last one, because it didn't engage with the game in any meaningful way.

It acknowledged a new player in the game and let the town know that I have experience with him as a player. A smoking gun? No, but it supplies more information to the town than, “Welcome, Amished!”.

Hahaha, I see what you did there. Note that the post where I said "Welcome" was right after a post where I had answered all the relevant questions put to me, and I had commented on the game. I then FoSed you, and as a side note, welcomed Amished. Your post, by contrast, seemed to ignore the game and all questions put to you. You also claimed some super-scum-hunting abilities when it came to this new player. The "it may be scummy but it supplies information" line is weak. FoS remains.

I'm not really comfortable with the step down from "lurking" to "vague" in post 101, either. Sounds like you are trying to downplay a side wagon gone bad.

I think of lurking and 'coasting' as much the same thing. I'm still suspicious of DDD's non-participation.

Percy, what do you think of kirroha?

At the moment, she has a lot of questions that need answering; specifically, your last post, especially the incompetence plea which I missed on my last re-read, and the misrepresenting she did of your post. I'm waiting on her next post, after which I will give a full and detailed account of what I think about the case on kirroha.

I made my vote in the RVS. I meant when something serious came up, I'd place a real vote instead of just my jokevote.

I think this was exactly Korts' original point. Your vote means nothing, you didn't want to achieve anything by it, so why vote at all? The only reason you would vote ZazieR is to have a 'placeholder' vote, knowing that it will achieve nothing. You're still insisting that it doesn't mean anything. Thus, I'm happy to upgrade my initial reservations about "not pro-town" to "anti-town" and

Unvote, Vote: Kmd4390.

It's a joke vote. Of course it doesn't mean anything. So you are voting me this late over a joke vote? What happened to taking the early game with a grain of salt?

Oh and nice OMGUS btw. XD

Again, this was Kort's original point. Your vote was a schtick vote - just a joke, used to appear participatory in the RVS rather than to gather information for the town. Your rationalisation for using this particular voting style have been extremely poor.

Oh, and stop using acronyms you don't understand XD.

Actually, there WAS a stance to take. You pick one side or the other. That is taking a stance.

IIOA-Information instead of analysis. You gave information on the game. I guess you could argue that you analyzed by looking at possibilities, but you didn't pick a side. Maybe not IIOA exactly, but still scummy.

Oh, there we go. It's not IIoA! I'm sorry, but your position is ridiculous. I also didn't just 'look at the possibilities', but stated my opinion as well. What

you

wanted me to do was to say "I agree with Korts!" or "I agree with Kmd!", but I simply didn't. There wasn't enough evidence there to make me swing wholly to one way or the other. What exactly was scummy about what I did?

You asked my opinion of Zaz. I said I'm very sure she's town. Now you are attacking me for answering your question. Am I supposed to lie and say she is scummy? Because she really isn't. I'm not giving specific meta because the second I do, her meta changes whether she is trying to change it or not. Awareness of one's own meta means it no longer exists (unless it's an intentional meta).

I agree that she is a smart player. But there still is a difference between her town and scum game. Maybe I'm not an expert at picking her out as scum, but I can sometimes pick her out as town, and she's playing how she does when I do.

Firstly, I'm not attacking you for answering the question. I'm attacking you because your answer is crap.

Secondly, you suggest that the only alternative to saying "I'm very sure she's town" is "I think she's scummy", which it's not. It's a false dichotomy. My original attack was on your use of "very sure".

Finally, let me reiterate. You're saying that

sometimes

you can get a town read on ZazieR, in a way that you can't substantiate; that you're not an expert, but you're

very sure

she's town. Sorry, not buying it. Now I think your initial vote on her was a distancing measure, because now you seem to be going out of your way to defend another player who isn't under threat, and that's really weird.

Kind of humorous that my "crap argument" isn't even an argument I was making. I think we call that a strawman around here.

You were saying that ZazieR is town, for meta reasons. That's an argument. I have not over-inflated your argument to more easily take it down (which is the strawman fallacy); I have argued that your conclusion does not follow from your premises.

According to Zaz, who I see as town, you don't take strong stances as scum, but you do as town. Now, of course, this meta becomes useless after this game because you are aware of it, but it's still there now.

Oh, hilaire. You didn't even read the posts, you just trusted in almighty ZazieR! This is why I hate meta arguments - no-one bothers to check them. This was my second post in Suzumiya Haruhi Mafia, where I was scum up to my eyeballs. I'd call that taking a stance, wouldn't you?

To summarize my case against Kmd:
(1) His RVS vote was not pro-town. His explanations of his reasons for voting in such a manner have been weak.
(2) He has accused me of IIoA, OMGUS, strawmanning and "not taking a stance". All of these are demonstrably false.
(3) He himself has engaged in strawmanning, misrepresenting my arguments and establishing false dichotomies.
(4) He voted me for meta

that he hasn't even read

.
(5) His buddying up to ZazieR unnecessary, overblown and unwarranted.

[Percy]

No time to post today; tomorrow for sure! Sorry guys.

[Percy]

The case against kirroha

Later on there’s the anti-town behavior that I noted with her confirm of her vote followed by her very next post which backpedals from that confidence to try and distance herself from the vote that she was just so sure of.

As I had said, I wasn't that sure about Korts' scumminess. It's just that he insisted that I was scum, so I insisted that he was scum too. Confirm votes don't do anything in particular, right?

I find kirroha's response to somewhat evasive, but it seem pretty obvious to me that she was just parroting Korts, especially with the "chime in" comment just afterwards.

What was in my initial post that was scummy, and what 'answers and clarifications' did I provide that eased my scumminess?

I didn't like you analysis of the sonic situation, but it wasn't that bad to me. Most of all, I didn't like your buddying up to me.
Your clarification in 75 didn't reverse your buddying up too dramatically, or stick with it too dramatically either. Goldilocks zone, or something. It could be faked, but I was less suspicious of you.

Currently, I find Kmd and DDD more suspicious than kirroha. In particular, as I mentioned before, DDD's case against kirroha was pretty terrible in the early stages. The "confirm vote" scumminess was raised first by Zaz in 84, and mentioned again by DDD in 98 after I prodded for more details, and even then he phrases it as "hasn't helped herself" as though he's already getting ready for the "OH NO SHE WAS JUST A NOOB TOWNIE, OH WELL" tomorrow. He still hasn't explained his motive for jumping on the wagon in the first place in any clear manner - his first expansive post on the issue was 113, and most of it was said before by others. Smells like scummy opportunism.

In my defence

If I hadn't replaced into as many games as I have, I always just vote for somebody that doesn't have a vote. That's as useful as KMD always voting Zaz if they're together. I'll admit all day every day that it's a placeholder vote until I actually see anything and I don't have a problem with that and I don't see why people are really bringing it up. He has the meta to do it probably no matter what his alignment so it's a null tell. I act the same way every RVS, and that's a null tell.

Always voting for someone who doesn't have a vote is a *great* idea. Every time someone votes, people pay attention. Getting people to pay attention to players who may be slipping under the radar, or even those who are earning townie points, is a good idea. Even if you're scum, it has the potential to generate good information for the town.

Kmd's vote is not like this. It's a null tell as to his scumminess, but it's not a pro-town move either. Essentially, it does nothing. That was my position from the beginning, and it remains my position now.

I also wanted to point out some things that caught my eye since joining.

You also claimed some super-scum-hunting abilities when it came to this new player.

He claimed no such thing. He said he had a good read on me. We've played a couple times together and so far he's been right on the button about my alignment at all times. Saying that he has a meta on me is helpful, and if necessary to prove a point one way or another he'll have something he can point to out of experience. I feel that to be a great help to the town, just as Zaz can point out your games and we can read them at our leisure if we want to to try to get a better feel for you (also good).

I'll say it right now: I don't like meta analysis, in general. For example, ZazieR says "I have meta against Percy" and Kmd simply believes her, without ever reading it. Now DDD claims that he has a good read on you - that his word as to your alignment is somehow 'better' in an undefined way. It makes a difference that you've confirmed this to be true, but if you guys are the scumteam then this may give posts where you defend each other more credence in the future. Or, DDD can hasten a mislynch of you if he's scum and you're not, or vice versa.

It's frustrating being on the outside; we have ZazieR and Kmd claiming BFF status, and then DDD says how great he's going to be able to read you, and it makes me feel like my opinion counts for less when it really shouldn't.

Re your questions about IIoA, here is your definition:

You're posting, but you're not really contributing to the game with it (and with my stance on "fluff" commentary) I find it harms the game making it scummy

I would say that my post was not fluff commentary. I put more thought into it than just *shrug*, and even though I wasn't willing to commit to a particular "side" of the argument at that point, I did give an interpretation of the situation.

Re: the OMGUS claim, I'm sorry, but you're just wrong here. My reasons for voting for him are pretty clear when I actually vote:

Your vote means nothing, you didn't want to achieve anything by it, so why vote at all? The only reason you would vote ZazieR is to have a 'placeholder' vote, knowing that it will achieve nothing. You're still insisting that it doesn't mean anything.

Not doing something pro-town when you have the opportunity to do it is a scumtell. He conceded that it wasn't a pro-town move. Therefore, he earnt my vote. I didn't even address his reasons for voting for me there.

Finally, for your point about the kmd and zaz relationship. The only way you accusing him for saying that zaz is town really is only effective if both of them are scum. KMD-scum and Zaz-town, the read is right, and good for us. KMD-town and Zaz-town the read is right and good for us. KMD-town and Zaz-scum the read is wrong, and since you're disbelieving of it anyways it's not *really* that bad. KMD-scum and Zaz-scum is the only one where he has true knowledge and is lying about it.

1. Are you saying that if Kmd was lynched and flipped scum, you'd be

more

inclined to believe Zaz was town? I don't understand how else "good for us" can be taken.
2. Your argument seems to be saying "it has no effect on the game whether he's right or wrong,

on average

", but that's missing the point. The point is that he doesn't have the evidence to back up his read.
3. If Kmd were scum, he's either lying/buddying or simply buddying. If he's town, then he's claiming access to knowledge that he simply doesn't have.

Percy makes a reasonable case against Kmd

You seem to be the only one who thinks so. Do you disagree with Amished's read on me in any particular place?

A third party role is a role that's neither town nor scum. I've already explained why I'm a third party role, and why the mod is scum

I understand the whole 'lighthearted' thing, I really do. But I think it's unnecessary for me to answer questions about scenarios that just don't exist in this game.

You still haven't explained how the RVS gives information :s

Urgh, look, I'll quote this from another game I was in, where I had the same fucking argument:

WHY I THINK THE RANDOM VOTE PHASE IS AWESOME

In the random vote phase, everyone is looking at how everyone else works, with no good grounding on any good reads. Some people know each other, and are scumbuddies together. We want to find these people!
We can start by flinging accusations around (and most games start this way). They're lighthearted, the reasons are usually pretty lame, but hopefully we can start to see some personalities. If someone's personality appears to change later in the game, we have something to call them on!
We take our notes, but keep the search wide and make sure everyone gets a look-in.

Eventually, we'll get something weird, something good, something worth seriously investigating. We do that, and see how people react - do they like the proceedings? Do they participate, or shrink away? Before long people are screaming at each other, and we have to sort through the confusion, keep our heads and keep looking for the knowing glances between the scum.

This is how the day proceeds, whether we get out of the RVS sooner or later. But later is better - it's the best way to prepare us for the day. It generates content for everyone, and establishes personality reads that can be scrutinized later.

I'm so sick of talking about the RVS. It seems that the prevailing attitude on this site is that the RVS is both necessary and bad, and I think neither of those things are true.

And I disagree. Because one player says that his lover is scum, doesn't mean that he's right. It only shows that the attacker of the two might be town.

Of course, you're right. I apologise for the mistake. *facepalm*


DDD says he's ready to put me at L-1. Kmd probably likes his vote on me, but I'd like to know if ZazieR and Mitey still like theirs.

Question

If we don't trust even a bit in our partners, it would be hard to find scum since our partners are the only people we can ever talk to quietly, and we must cherish that.

This gave me an idea for a question to everyone: Have you used your quicktopic threads with your partner to communicate with them? If so, what was said? I can't imagine a pro-town use for them, but perhaps I'm just being unimaginative.

More tomorrow.

[Percy]

Will post soon, Mother's Day today so I'll post when I get back.

Korts, I posted in the QT.

[Percy]

1. Are you saying that if Kmd was lynched and flipped scum, you'd be more inclined to believe Zaz was town? I don't understand how else "good for us" can be taken.

Or we get a scum lynched, which is good for us.... >_>

You missed my point. Why is it good for us

for Kmd to say that ZazieR is town

, if he is scum and she is town?

Therefore we need it, but we should get out of it as soon as possible. Is that really that hard to understand?

Not at all. I understand why people don't like the RVS, and I understand why people may want to get out of it quickly. I just think it has its uses, and liking the RVS is not a scumtell.

Personally I'd be somewhat suspicious if people weren't using their quicktopic as that would show me that they have something to hide.

I disagree. I didn't use my quicktopic because there's a 50% chance Korts is scum (from my perspective). Why should I give the scum additional information and listen to their misdirection? I've thought about it, though, and it actually makes sense to use your quicktopic - inconsistencies can emerge, which you can pick up on etc., and if they're town, then you should be talking to them! So I'll start using my quicktopic.

Does my early game playstyle that I use and consider effective in most of the games I play make me scum here? How the hell does that make sense?

Sure, you're sticking to a meta. That doesn't mean it's not a meta that you've established to help you be scum.

Oh, and you're right. I've played +/-70 games and don't know OMGUS when I see it.

Oh, argument from authority now. You've played 70 games? Then I must be wrong! I am so sorry, mafia master!

OMGUS is voting for someone who is voting you. I don't care whether you're voting for me, and I've built up a case that is more than "I don't like him because he's voting for me". If you continue to characterise it as such, you are strawmanning my argument. Hell, you even try to characterise my reasons for voting you in a completely different manner just after you say this:

But now you are voting me later in the game over this same issue. And this is after I have called you scum and Korts is your lover. If you are scum, you obviously won't want Korts lynched. And you don't want someone who is suspicious of you alive. So you go back to this old point that you took no stance on, and even said meant nothing. And you use it to vote me.

I did take the early game with a grain of salt. I thought you may be jokevoting, but I also wanted to give you a chance to actively participate in the RVS. You didn't. You continued to defend an indefensible position. That's why I voted you.

Also, Korts is in no danger now. I don't think that had anything to do with my actions. Do you?

So it's crap for my read on a player to be that I think she is town? Ok.

I'm pretty sure of it. What is wrong with that?

I'm going out of my way to defend her by saying I think she is town when a player asks me for my read on her? Interesting. Guess I should have ignored the question, right? That's pretty protown.

Every one of these sentences is crap.
1. It's not bad to have a town read. That's not what you said. You said you were

very sure

.
2. You have no reason to be so sure. I don't care what your meta is - if you've played in a lot of games, it's just as possible that Zaz has learnt how to fake it just for you.
3. Once again, I am not objecting to you answering the question that I asked. I've corrected you once on this, so there it is again. I'm objecting to your answer. Why are you "going out of your way" to defend Zaz? The fact that you think this is necessary or desirable on Day 1 is incredibly suspicious.

The strawman is this:
Percy: Kmd, what are your thoughts on Zazie?
Kmd: I think she is town.
Percy: You are defending her, buddying up to her, and saying "trust me, she is town". That's scummy.

Let's try it with quotes, rather than with your ridiculously biased "summary", shall we?

@Kmd: What is your opinion of ZazieR's play so far?

No read yet, but I respond as I read and I see that she has posted after this post. I'll answer your question at the end of my post.
...
Percy, I'm very sure Zaz is town. She is questioning like she normally does as town.

Oh, I'm

very

happy with my vote on you. Why on earth are you defending ZazieR, given that she's not under threat at all,

and

using meta that cannot possibly tell us anything? Even if I concede that she's playing how she normally plays, she's a smart player and could easily fake her meta. This comment basically boils down to "trust me, she's town", and that's not unnecessary at this point, and also a crap argument. This is much worse than kirroha's buddying up to me.

Hopefully that makes things a little clearer for you. I didn't misrepresent your argument - you said "I am very sure she's town because of her meta". I think that's crap.

To summarize my case against Kmd:
(1) His RVS vote was not pro-town. His explanations of his reasons for voting in such a manner have been weak.
(2) He has accused me of IIoA, OMGUS, strawmanning and "not taking a stance". All of these are demonstrably false.
(3) He himself has engaged in strawmanning, misrepresenting my arguments and establishing false dichotomies.
(4) He voted me for meta that he hasn't even read.
(5) His buddying up to ZazieR unnecessary, overblown and unwarranted.

1. So I'm scum for doing something I do regardless of alignment?
2. IIOA was the wrong term. The point was valid though. OMGUS and Strawmanning were valid. Not taking a stance was valid when I pointed it out.
3. LOL! Any backing for this? Or are you just trying to sound impressive?
4. I actually have a lot more reasons to vote you than "meta". I actually just dismissed that point.
5. Buddying by saying I thought she was town. This is getting kind of funny.

1. Just because you do it all the time doesn't make it any less scummy.
2. I have addressed this in this post, I feel.
3. You did it in the last post I responded to, and pointed it out then. You did it in the post I'm responding to now.
4. The point was that you didn't read it, but used it as a motivation to vote for me.
5. Telling someone they're town and saying that you trust them is buddying up. How else would you do it?

I didn't claim access to knowledge. I claimed a town read.

No you didn't. You said more than "I have a town read", and you know it!

I dismissed the meta point when I looked at the game.

That doesn't change the fact that you were willing to believe it. Scum don't have to read closely or pay much attention, they just need to apply pressure in the right places. That's exactly what you're doing, and I've caught you doing it.

kirroha and I have been using our quick topic...when we're around. With me getting sick and her mid exams, neither of us have been posting much of anything there as of late.

Mitey, you seem to be claiming sickness in the games you're playing in, so I'm inclined to believe you. However, any idea when you might be able to be active again?


kirroha is saying that she won't let me be lynched. She has a town read of me, and doesn't think I should be lynched. The case against me is pretty garbage, after all. I'm more concerned as to her certainty than her "I will stop you" talk (which is clearly, CLEARLY exaggeration), but I get uneasy whenever anyone defends me or says they have a town read of me.

I made clear the original reason for my vote clear in a back and forth with kirroha.

Oh, you did? Care to quote it for me?

[Percy]

I made clear the original reason for my vote clear in a back and forth with kirroha.

You said that "seeing if scum would jump on the wagon" was one of "many" reasons. This is not clear, by any stretch of the imagination.

In the case of KMD-scum and Zaz-town, KMD saying that he thinks that Zaz is town both makes him look more suspicious, and also is telling the truth about a townie. I fail to see how this is not beneficial.

So you agree that it was suspicious?

The part that I agree with kirroha on is that I'm finding it hard to trust my partner...though, I really want to!

Hmmm... You've said things like this before:

I'm having a hard time trusting her but, feel the need to be able to talk pretty openly with her.

Now something interesting to note...in our private conversations, kirroha
did not say that she was Town. I'm not saying that this means that she is Scum but, it is interesting to me seeing as I'm not sure as to her alignment.

I don't know quite what to make of this. It's certainly been mentioned more than it needs to have been mentioned, but:

I'm wondering how I got so much suspicion on me...I have barely posted.

You are lurking hard. If anyone is "not taking stances", it's you (but those who were calling me on it don't seem to be calling you on it...). What is your opinion on the Kmd/Percy situation? What is your opinion of DDD and Amished?

Nobody ever called it anti-town before Korts. Not once. I didn't think anyone here even knew that meta. How would it help me as scum coming into this game?

You may have been able to avoid the RVS, if Korts didn't call you on it.

How fucking dense are you? Did I tell you to do anything? No. I said I know what OMGUS is by now.

By telling me that you knew what OMGUS was, you were implicitly rebutting my defence. I was telling you that it was a crap argument, because it is.

Now you're arguing that it's subconscious OMGUS, something you are aware of, but I'm not (or at least saying that it's a possibility - incidentally, subconscious OMGUS seems like a towntell to me). I'm saying that my case is more than that, and you're being dismissive.

It's indefnsible (is that a word?) why? Because you said so?

Yes, indefensible is a word. And yes, your position is indefensible. Your initial vote meant you avoided the RVS, and you've gone to great lengths to say that it meant nothing. But doing something that means nothing is just the same as doing nothing, so why do it at all?

I am conscious that the original vote reason was not very solid at all. It wasn't OMGUS, but I voted based on your actions and my read of you. Since then, your responses have been scummy, and my case has developed. I would be more than happy to ignore the "jokevote" scenario and still keep my vote on you.

Why is Zazie scummy then? Why haven't you expressed suspicion on her? Seriously, unless you either think she is scum, or you think it benefits me as scum to say I think she is town, I think you should drop this.

Again

with the false dichotomies. My read on ZazieR is pretty null, given that she hasn't posted in ages and I had a null read back when she was posting.

I think your statement that you were "very sure" that she is town was an unsupported, scummy statement. That does not mean that I think ZazieR is scummy, or that I have to establish that to make my point.

I didn't vote you on meta alone. I said that the meta added to the already existing case. With the meta dismissed, that addition is dismissed as well. Everything else is still there.

The point is that you didn't read it!

You just said "oh, that's another point against Percy!" without bothering to do your research. Sure, you retracted your statement when you were caught out, but that doesn't make the initial statement any better.

What knowledge did I claim? And when? Quote it.

That's just the point - there is nothing in the thread to give you a "very town" read.

You

claimed that she was very town and didn't say why, beyond a meta impression. I'm saying that no meta impression can be that strong, and you haven't provided any evidence to show us why we should think she's town.

Actually, scum should pay more attention than town. They need to know how to control the game. Which players to paint as scummy. You get it though. You are doing a pretty decent job here as scum.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Town can only win if they participate and read everything. Scum can just skim and get vibes and pick and choose a few quotes. Good scum should read, but scum can get away with not reading.

Why the fuck are town reads scummy in a game where scum don't even kill?

Have you noticed all the attention kirroha's getting for her read of me? Do you think that her actions should be dismissed? Oh wait, no, you think that the kirroha/Percy axis is great, and that kirroha should be lynched! At least

try

to be consistent.

You also asked me where you strawmanned, misrepped and established false dichotomies. The instances are clearly marked in my posts, including this one.

Percy's arguments seem to be more and more strained as they go along, while KMD is responding .. probably better than I would if I was in his position.

Does this post of mine continue this trend?



@Korts: You voted Kmd, and now you've voted me. Can you explain why?

@ZazieR: Are you still around?

[Percy]

@Korts: You voted Kmd, and now you've voted me. Can you explain why?

Because I think you're scum. The Kmd vote has also been explained already.

Why do you think I'm scum? You were voting Kmd, then post 153 seems to indicate that you don't like Kmd's replies so far, but because of kirroha's comments you think I'm scum. Then you vote me. I'd like to know exactly how I earned your vote.

No, I voted kirroha to see what the reactions would be. That's a single reason and a fairly clear one.

OK, thanks for finally clearing that up. It was not clear before now, despite your insistence. Did you see any relevant reactions that are worth mentioning?

How is it a crap argument. I've said specifically why it's OMGUS. All you say is "nuh-uh".

Like your response was any better - "it is OMGUS even if you're not aware of it, because it's subconscious".

You are either scum or the most retarded townie I have ever seen.

Fuck you. Seriously, fuck you.

If I'm lynched today and you're actually pro-town, I know you'll step away from your computer and think about how terrible a player I was, how it was all my fault, how you are the mafia king and how it doesn't really mean anything about your mafia abilities that you are so wrong about me. You're still great at mafia. You're

awesome

. You've played 70 games! It's really all

my

fault!

Have fun with that.

I said it was based on meta and even said what specifically she did that she normally does as town.

Yes, you did. However, I don't agree that you could have the strong impression you had, and still think there's a good possibility that you were buddying.

Kirroha flat out said she WON'T LET us lynch you. That is a terrible stance to take. Looks like newbie scum whose buddy is going down. When you flip scum, I'm setting my effort on Kirroha next.

Or that she's newbie scum who wants townie points from being against a town lynch. kirroha's alignment is independent of mine, as far as I can see.

Anyone who is even thinking of voting for me because of kirroha's actions is on drugs.

Don't throw around words you don't understand unless you can point to them specifically. Go play a newbie game. The ICs will tell you what all this stuff means. Maybe you can be scum with an IC too. They'll show you how not to get caught like this.

This is both lazy and unnecessarily mean. I am certainly not the most experienced mafia player, but you're being disingenuous in the extreme.

I marked them clearly. Look, I've even gone to the bother of quoting it all for you below. I've either bolded or inserted comments to make it

even easier

for you to read.

You asked my opinion of Zaz. I said I'm very sure she's town. Now you are attacking me for answering your question. Am I supposed to lie and say she is scummy? Because she really isn't. I'm not giving specific meta because the second I do, her meta changes whether she is trying to change it or not. Awareness of one's own meta means it no longer exists (unless it's an intentional meta).

I agree that she is a smart player. But there still is a difference between her town and scum game. Maybe I'm not an expert at picking her out as scum, but I can sometimes pick her out as town, and she's playing how she does when I do.

Firstly, I'm not attacking you for answering the question. I'm attacking you because your answer is crap. (

Misrepresentation, inducing a strawman

)

Secondly, you suggest that the only alternative to saying "I'm very sure she's town" is "I think she's scummy", which it's not. It's a

false dichotomy (look, I even said those exact words.

). My original attack was on your use of "very sure".

OMGUS is voting for someone who is voting you. I don't care whether you're voting for me, and I've built up a case that is more than "I don't like him because he's voting for me". If you continue to characterise it as such, you are

strawmanning (there, said it plainly)

my argument.

...
I'm going out of my way to defend her by saying I think she is town when a player asks me for my read on her? Interesting. Guess I should have ignored the question, right? That's pretty protown.

...
3. Once again, I am not objecting to you answering the question that I asked. I've corrected you once on this, so there it is again. I'm objecting to your answer. (

Further misrepping/strawmanning

)

Why is Zazie scummy then? Why haven't you expressed suspicion on her? Seriously, unless you either think she is scum, or you think it benefits me as scum to say I think she is town, I think you should drop this.

Again with the

false dichotomies (look, it's right here)

. My read on ZazieR is pretty null, given that she hasn't posted in ages and I had a null read back when she was posting.

So, yeah. Don't you accuse me of being unclear and "too amateur for Kmd's awesomeness", because I have been transparent from the beginning.

I've been thinking more and more that Kmd may simply be tunnelled town, and a jerk. My own personal desire to be vindicated has outstripped my objectivity and value to the town. Most other players have been happy to just step back and let us fight it out, which is never a good sign.

Kmd has been evasive and done the three things that I've said over and over again (misrep, strawman, false dichotomies), and I pointed them out. My case is, at the moment, centred around his poor responses to my attacks rather than the initial charges I levelled, and I can't tell the difference in my head any more between Kmd being scum and Kmd and I tunnelling and clashing and blowing things out of proportion.

I don't think I have enough of a case to vote Kmd. If I am lynched, we can't afford another mislynch, and I don't want to develop the Kmd/Percy axis any more than I have, because I just don't have good, objective arguments any more as to why he should die after me, or vice versa. We're getting close to the deadline, and I feel that I need to widen my focus with a solid re-read.

Unvote

.

[Percy]

Sorry, busy again. Will post tomorrow.

[Percy]

Percy, would you like me to tone down my attacks? I don't mean anything personal by it.

No, I'm fine. I am not new to the internet and the kind of people who use it. However, you're certainly getting worked up, which I read as a towntell. ABR posted this in another game, and I'll let it be my 'last word' on the issue:

This is a fact of life, people. This is not real life, its a game, and people act deliberately extravagant and against the majority's decision all the time. What kind of peer pressure can you possibly have on someone through your computer screen? Balance that against the satisfaction of pulling the trigger on some annoying schmuck that has been on your case the entire game for the most terrible reasons you couldn't even make up. You just want his ignorant head blown away to smithereens and are aching to pull the trigger because you can almost sense the scumminess oozing off his body, and once you kill him you think that you'll be all cleared anyway, and you will be hailed as some kind of hero for having an independent will and being the only one who 'saw his slips' to save the day. But what often happens is at the end of the day you've just killed some innocent hardhead that happened to think you were unbalanced or illogical and you would have served the town better by rolling over and die instead of drawing all the attention away from the scum and wasting precious time and discussion.

I've posted my accusations, he's posted his responses, and if anyone else wants clarification on any particular point, they are welcome to ask for it.

On my re-read, four players pinged my scumdar.

kirroha

- now that my other game has finished, I can talk a little about her meta. I know we all love meta discussion!
In Mini 775 kirroha (as mafia godfather) got herself lynched on Day 1. The read on her was "trying too hard to appear town", and the town was right. Not only that, but when she landed in hot water, she stopped posting (though continued to post in her other games).

Coming into this game with kirroha, I was quite surprised when she said that she was so certain I was town, and made that list of possible scumteams in an effort to appear helpful. Her buddying to me made me extremely suspicious.

Now that she's attracted a fair bit of suspicion, she's stopped posting anything of substance. This correlates extremely well with the way she played the other game when she was scum.

I wanted to give kirroha some room, to appear friendly and not let the meta cloud my judgement. That's why my post 131 doesn't come down hard on her. What I said about my read was true, but there were open questions from other players that she still hasn't answered, and I wanted her to answer those before adding my vocal opposition. Her lack of posting makes me even more suspicious of her now.

MiteyMouse

- Has been sitting on the sidelines most dramatically. I know that sickness played a role, but he's spent most of his time talking about how he sees kirroha as scum (without giving good reasons), but is reluctant to vote for her or he'll die as well. He talks about how badly he wants to trust kirroha, which again is rather odd.

He says that the reason he's not jumping all over her is due to not wanting to die but a townie should want to get their partner lynched if they think they're scum. This has been pointed out multiple times. Declaring the RVS "over" in 152 is very late, and he appears to want to avoid scumhunting.

Amished

- Part of my read on Amished is undoubtedly OMGUS. It really bothered me that he took KMD's side in our argument, so I was open to the possibility that he was helping KMD's bad case roll along in an attempt to protect his lover. However, I have decided to ignore all that and concentrate instead on his read of Mitey. Having read all of Mitey's posts, it seems to me like Mitey is deliberately avoiding pushing against kirroha for no good reason, and yet Amished has a town read. I cannot for the life of me see how anyone could have a town read of Mitey at the moment - null at best. I'd like Amished to tell us exactly how he arrived at this conclusion.

Preview edit: It seems that Amished's town read on Mitey is simply because he thinks kirroha is scum. This is quite baffling, as it's got nothing to do with Mitey's play at all. Would you be happy with a kirroha/Mitey lynch?

DDD

- Mildest scumread. I feel he has been opportunistic at times. Sajin's point appears to be that you shouldn't draw conclusions when you acknowledge the WIFOMery, but DDD has essentially stated a gut read out of the possibilities, and I'm OK with that.


Overall, I get the scummiest reads from kirroha and Mitey. I know they can't both be scum together, but I'm pretty sure at least one of them are. They're partners, so I would advocate their lynch.

Vote: kirroha

.

I get town reads from Korts and Kmd, and a fairly null read from Sajin.

[Percy]

I'm going out of my way to name my suspects by saying I think kirroha and Mitey are the most suspicious, Amished less, DDD even less, when a player asks me for my suspects? Interesting. Guess I should have ignored the question, right? That's pretty protown.




(I'd actually much rather lynch Mitey, but voting kirroha achieves the same end.)

[Percy]

You're not attacking my arguments. You're not addressing

any

stance I took on

any

issue.

You're simply pointing out that my suspects happen to fall in a configuration you call scummy, as you think attacking someone in every pair simultaneously is a good way to make friends and influence people.

So, yeah. Not different. Actually, worse.

I have 4 suspects. I have (I feel) good reasons to believe one of kirroha and Mitey are scum, as outlined in my post (which you continue to ignore, beyond a superficial and biased read). My reads on Amished and DDD are worth mentioning; specifically, I like the Amished/Mitey pairing, but if Mitey flips town then the lead will be less strong.

[Percy]

Read what I am fucking saying for once.

It's fucking hard to fucking read what you fucking don't fucking

write

.


You say I'm setting myself up to accept any lynch. Let me clear it up for you (which you could have done yourself if you went back and

read my post

, and maybe started talking about the stances I took on issues and other things you identified as important things for townies to do).


I explicitly said I wanted a kirroha/Mitey lynch. I do not want anyone but them to be lynched today.

If Mitey flips scum, then I will turn my sights to Amished.

Is that clear?

[Percy]

Apologies for the gender confusion.

A lynch of the kirroha/Mitey pair will tell us if one of you is scum. I'm pretty sure one of you are.

Why don't you want to pursue the leads on kirroha? When do you think would be a good time?

You haven't commented on the substance of the case against her; you've simply wrung your hands and said it's all too dangerous for you. Your lack of scumhunting against your partner is scummy.

[Percy]

I specifically stated that I get a town read from Korts. He's not one of my suspects at the moment. I'm a little wary of his vote-switching between kevin and myself, but his kirroha scumhunt was well executed.

I notice that you ignored my post. Do you have anything to say, or are you just stalling?

[Percy]

kirroha has votes from DDD, Korts and myself. This will result in a lynch in about 6 hours.

Kmd has said he's happy with the lynch. Amished and Sajin, what are your thoughts?

Mitey, kirroha, any last words?

[Percy]

I think Kort's attitude towards kirroha on Day 1 is difficult to square with Korts-scum, given that it was sustained over several pages, abandoned then resumed twice, and filled with content.

I'm going to re-read Amished. If Korts and I are killed before I'm done, then I suggest you all look at Amished too when (and if) Korts flips town.

[Percy]

EBWOP: given that

his case against kirroha

was sustained...

[Percy]

Well played, Kevin! I am impressed.

(Also, not offended at all, I really enjoyed this game)

Yeah, the Korts-hammer was pretty disappointing. I actually posted my "I'll be back with an Amished case" just before I went to bed, and was ready to finalise and post it first thing in the morning, but I was dead

I regret how I phrased my first attack on you, Kmd. I really thought you were scum because of your buddying with ZazieR, rather than the voting thing, but I edited the post at the last minute because I thought the argument flowed better if I voted you for the first thing, then said "and here's another reason!". I then had to defend my stupid votereason, which took focus off the actual votereason, without appearing to backpedal.

I was almost 100% sure DDD was town by the end, and either Kevin or Amished was scum. When Amished voted DDD and Kevin jumped on, I

knew

Kevin was scum. Sajin's votereason was pretty crap, and I think there were far more convincing leads on the others than just DDD not talking about Sajin.

I really enjoyed the game, thanks everyone