Open 142: True Love (Game Over) before 784

[Korts]

Vote ZazieR

obviously.

Mitey, why no vote?

vote: Kmd

Schtick votes are not constructive.

[Korts]

Don't you vote Zazie in every game as a gimmick?

[Korts]

Kmd: a little of both. Not productive is a scumtell of its own volition.

[Korts]

Um. Volition isn't what I thought it is. Anyway, you get my meaning.

[Korts]

Fair enough. Make that anti-town tell then.

[Korts]

You fail to contribute anything to the early game process when you decide to make a vote that you have a history of making and thus have ample meta defense for any attacks. It is a cop out of "random" voting. Not contributing=anti-town.

[Korts]

Also, I tend to be the one to start discussion in most games based on a small catch I make. I'm not generally a non-contributor in any way.

Did I say you're generally a non-contributor? What I said is this: your first vote here (and in general when playing with Zazie) is less helpful than "random" votes generally are.

[Korts]

I WOULD LIKE OTHER PEOPLE TO CHIME IN NOW

[Korts]

Korts, kmd, please explain the big deal over one schtick vote.

It is not a big deal, there is simply no bigger deal to discuss.

And yes, Kmd's initial vote is a null-tell for alignment, and he played to his meta; but it definitely isn't helpful to town, using a cop out of actually arbitrary voting by having a schtick vote.

For early game discussion starter purposes "anti-town" is as good a substitute as any for "scummy".

Kmd: do you actually think that Percy's post, taking a middle of the road stance on every issue that was brought up, would be a reasonable basis for any non-joke post?

BTW note that Percy's post took a middle of the road stance on every issue that was brought up. On the fence is a good spot for scum to be enjoying the view from.

[Korts]

If you are town, you should look just as closely at me as you look at anyone else. If you are scum, you want to keep me alive whatever it takes. This kind of looks like the second..

Actually, every townie has more reason to be looking at their own partners than every other lover pair. Here are the numbers: each townie has a 50 percent chance of being paired with scum; the other 50 percent of the time scum are spread between 2 of 3 other pairs, making every other pair's chances of being half-scum without your own partner being one 2/3rds of 50 percent as opposed to 50 percent.

[Korts]

Triple post: I like Kmd's vote.

unvote, vote: MiteyMouse

[Korts]

This is actually the first game where my vote on Zazie has been called anti-town.

But anyway.

If I manage to get into another game with you and Zazie I'm making it my schtick to vote you for your schtick vote.

[Korts]

Sorry Korts, but this is crap. I didn't take a strong view on any issue, because I don't have enough information to take a strong view (which includes my lack of serious voting). Instead, I asked questions and stated my opinion. The fact that I didn't charge out of the gate and agree with one of you 100% on page 2 doesn't even come close to a scumtell.

I didn't ask for your agreement out of the gate; but if exaggeration is necessary somewhere, it is most definitely in the early game. You need to take the most definitive stance when there is very little to go on, otherwise the game will flounder in uncertainty--which helps the scum.

MiteyMouse- I know I might be biased towards my sibling/lover/platonicfriend/whatever, but I guess this point might need to be addressed. Okay, since Mitey is my lover, I don't want her to get lynched, but I think it's kinda weird that she only random voted after Kmd said "Why no vote?" It seems to be some kind of "trying-to-fit-in" kind... Still, I don't really think she's scum, but it might be due to my biasness.

This is so wishy washy. And panicky. The first sentence reeks especially since I explained how every town player should naturally be biased

against

their lover.

To be fair, I was only trying to start a wagon on Mitey, but voting kirroha after this is a much better option.

unvote, vote: kirroha

bandwagon gogogo

Thus, though I find possibility 3) and 4) quite likely, 1) is still the most likely for me, so I won't vote or FoS him. Still, IGMEOY, Korts, Kmd.

wishy washy buddy uppy

Over here, this quote can be inferred two ways:

1) He is exasperated at the inactivity, thus he wants others to come in and contribute. This is pro-town.
2) He wants others to come in and help him in his debate against Kmd over a small matter. This is rather anti-town, but not absolutely.

So Korts: What were you referring to when you said that?

I was referring to the fact that Kmd and I were arguing on a nearly irrelevant point between ourselves and everyone else was sitting it out without a single comment.

He tells the mod about a mistake on his vote. If he were scum, there is absolutely no benefit in doing something like this, knowing that it most probably won't be noticed and would just increase his vote count by 1. He could always pretend not to see my vote, and still pass off as town. But he pointed out the vote. Either he is scum with a ridiculously high level of sportsmanship or town.

[...]

He's honest. I doubt scum would like to reveal the fact that they don't want to die.

Gives waaay too much credit to sonic.

Can we lynch the scum soonish?

[Korts]

P.S. Korts, you don't have to be jealous Rofl has a reason to be jealous though, as you apparently found a new lover Does he know?

I believe in polyamory

EBWOP
Korts, why didn't you point this out with my vote?

Meh. It was a conversation starter, and conversation had already started by then.

And this time, you (and Korts as well) are giving 'advice' to the scum. This makes lots of sense...

Hm. This makes sense. Then again, I already found likely scum based on trust in their partner, despite the fact that my point had already been stated.

---

I really think you're trying to look town since you are depicting your own actions as town.

Umm what? I have an opinion on what play would be pro-town, and act accordingly; you are really saying that that is scummy? You are trying way too hard to twist this in your favor.

But did you realise that he was just stuck voting between two pairings only? (Mitey/Kirro and Kmd/soni) The only pairing which he hasn't touched is the DDD/ZazieR pairing. In my opinion, if Korts is scum, his scumpartner is most likely in the DDD/Zazie pairing, because I believe that scum would not want to attract suspicion to their own scummates or their scummate's lover.

Seriously, we have had four pages of discussion--why the fuck should I have voted at least one player from each pair by this time?

So far you've zoomed in at Kmd, Mitey and me

Of which the only really serious case/vote is the one currently on you. (Also, note that my vote on Mitey was only ever for one single post, without even a hint of a case. How is that "zooming in"?)

Which, I presume - means that you are exasperated at the inactivity?

yes

there's no way you can be so sure

SCUM-PANIC ALERT

MAN YOUR STATIONS

THIS IS NOT A DRILL

[Korts]

Everyone, do you realise something? Korts has suspected a few people before. One of them was Percy, his lover. However, one thing you have to notice: He voted for my lover, Mitey, just because of one post of hers (and he didn't provide much proof; just jumped on her wagon). Yet, he has never shown the slightest inkling of ever wanting to vote for Percy.

I never said anything about reasons for voting Mitey; what makes you think I voted Mitey for that post?

And no, I didn't vote Percy, because my vote served a better purpose elsewhere.

That would be valid if you haven't shown signs of suspicion around DDD/ZazieR. You've never shown the slightest bit of suspecting them. Yet you've suspected everyone else: Kmd, Mitey, Sonic, Percy and me, all without much valid proof.

Of for fuckssake. THEY HAVEN'T GIVEN ANY REASON FOR ME TO. You have. Percy has. And I never suspected Kmd, Mitey or Sonic. This is very blatant misrep.

Korts, your posts are filled with OMGUS.

Hardy har har. I have a good case on you, while you basically voted me for my attitude. Who's "OMGUS"-ing exactly?

BTW the case is this, in order of strongest point to weakest:

• Blatant misrepresentation of my actions and opinions on multiple cases
• Trust in lover partner
• Too much credit for sonic
• initial wishy-washy stance on Kmd vs. Korts

[Korts]

Will post later, but the fact that no-one in particular is all over kirroha for post 87 tells me I may be tunneling too much.

[Korts]

If you haven't stated any reasons, then isn't that just hopping on a wagon? I thought hopping on a wagon without reason was a scumtell?

Playing by the book is not a very successful scumhunting technique. If you can't find more scum motivation for it than town motivation, then it's not a scumtell. And early game, there is no harm in mindless wagoning, au contraire!

At that time, I haven't spoken yet against you. So I see no reason why you couldn't vote for him, unless by "better purpose" you meant Mitey.

And that is what I meant. Like I said, wagoning is much more constructive in the early game than holding onto a single vote on a single player for a single post's mistake.

Then what's with the 2 page long argument about Kmd's vote on ZazieR? What about voting for Mitey? What about saying I'm giving too much credit to Sonic? Correct me if I'm wrong, but to me it sounds as if you're hinting he's a possible scumbuddy for me, which is counted as suspecting him.

lolno. the Kmd argument was semantics and not about suspicion at all. The Mitey vote was for wagoning. And about sonic--gods, you are thick, or doing a good job of pretending to be; ever heard of buddying up? No? It's when you appeal to another player in order to gain town cred with them. Either he is your scumpartner, or you were doing the aforementioned buddying up routine--I don't care right now, you're scum in either scenario.

All I did was to put down what I thought about the players. And then you voted for me because you were top on my suspicions list. You didn't show the slightest bit of wanting to vote for me before I suspected you. How is that so?

You are misrepresenting my stance here again. If you had bothered to read my initial post against you you could've seen that it was not mainly your take on me that bothered me, it was the wishy washy stance on Mitey, the absolute pro-town view of sonic, the take on Kmd.

If I misinterpreted your actions, then please explain!

Don't act like I haven't. In every post where I mention misrepresentation I show you how you did it and what it was you misrepresented. Read my posts again.

Look, I'll even quote!

I really think you're trying to look town since you are depicting your own actions as town.

Umm what? I have an opinion on what play would be pro-town, and act accordingly; you are really saying that that is scummy? You are trying way too hard to twist this in your favor.

So far you've zoomed in at Kmd, Mitey and me

Of which the only really serious case/vote is the one currently on you. (Also, note that my vote on Mitey was only ever for one single post, without even a hint of a case. How is that "zooming in"?)

That would be valid if you haven't shown signs of suspicion around DDD/ZazieR. You've never shown the slightest bit of suspecting them. Yet you've suspected everyone else: Kmd, Mitey, Sonic, Percy and me, all without much valid proof.

Of for fuckssake. THEY HAVEN'T GIVEN ANY REASON FOR ME TO. You have. Percy has. And I never suspected Kmd, Mitey or Sonic. This is very blatant misrep.

----------------------------------

I believe he's town, and I believe Percy is town too. Surprisingly, you never said 'too much credit for Percy'.

Because while you said that Percy is leaning town, you outright stated that you don't believe sonic could be scum based on something that is utterly inconsequential and a nulltell on any scale.

I'm not very good at this, and maybe you can help me a little as to how to properly interpret others' actions.

Why plead incompetence now?

---------------------------------------

So you're saying that bad reasoning and construction of poor cases is the best way to start the day? I fundamentally disagree.

Weeeell bad and poor are not the right words here. I'd rather go with intentionally weak.

And there are much better lines of discussion than post 97, not to mention that DDD was not active lurking at all imo. I'm not really comfortable with the step down from "lurking" to "vague" in post 101, either. Sounds like you are trying to downplay a side wagon gone bad.

Percy, what do you think of kirroha?

[Korts]

Oi, Kmd--why so convinced that your town read of Zazie is correct?

[Korts]

kirroha, you mentioned that you suspect Mitey. Please elaborate on this.

Percy makes a reasonable case against Kmd, although I still don't like his initial on-the-fence stance and his backtrack regarding DDD, and the explanations, while adequate, were not very convincing.

[Korts]

Also, kirroha, you asked why it is scummy that you have a town read on sonic/Amished; remember how you based this apparently rock solid read on one single post that said all of "the kmd/korts argument is stupid, moving on". This is not a towntell at all, considering that the argument was obviously designed to be stupid.

And yes, Amished's later posts are fairly pro-discussion, but those are

after

you have stated your "quite pro-town" read on his predecessor. You can't validate a read with posts that came after your statement of that read.

[Korts]

Not much to say without kirroha or Kmd replying... Long posts not helping. Will read and comment if needed, but mainly I'm interested in those two right now.

[Korts]

I could be wrong, but I like to think that I've played enough games with her to be able to tell. And she looks how she usually does as town. (Thought I responded to this already, but it doesn't look that way.)

Stop being so vague and elaborate on what she looks like usually as town and what she looks like in this game. If you can't do so, it will be assumed that you are either buddying up or protecting a partner.

However, everyone - I don't think we should rush. I won't let you all lynch Percy without enough proof. After reading some of his posts I really feel that he's a townie. I don't think he's scum. We shouldn't waste a lynch, especially when they are so precious now. THAT'S WHY I WON'T LET YOU ALL LYNCH PERCY.

This post makes me want to lynch Percy. Also, the fact that he doesn't reply to me in our QT. PERCY PLEASE DO SO

The other likely paradigm is Kmd/Zazie. Note that Zazie more or less ignores Kmd's meta bias in her favor; there is also Kmd's initial blind trust in Zazie's meta read on Percy, with Kmd apparently never looking into it himself.

Thing is, Percy is making a fair amount of sense in his arguments, and Kmd's replies are mostly patronizing or vague, and based more on convincingly confrontational behaviour than sound logic.

unvote, vote: Kmd

All aboard!

[Korts]

I'm not saying you can't go after her if you think she is scum. I just said my read on her is town. That's all.

Normally I wouldn't have a problem with you refusing to reveal a towntell. But you cite Zazie's meta as proof of her alignment--you won't give scum any hints on how to act by showing her specific towntells; on the other hand, if you don't provide the specifics so that others can research as well, your case for her innocence will necessarily seem bullshit. You may not think you are able to identify this apparently strong tell, but you should try.

Your evasive answers aren't helpful here.

Did you ask a question that would make scum uncomfortable? Was he replying before or has he been relatively quiet there all game?

We didn't talk at all before I tried to engage him in discussion. He's replied, so my post served its purpose.

The other likely paradigm is Kmd/Zazie. Note that Zazie more or less ignores Kmd's meta bias in her favor; there is also Kmd's initial blind trust in Zazie's meta read on Percy, with Kmd apparently never looking into it himself.

I dismissed the meta point when I looked at the game.

That is irrelevant. The fact that you initially trusted blindly in Zazie's judgement--which seemed especially damning, and thus should've warranted criticism rather than instant agreement--implies some sort of connection.

But my faith in the kirroha-Percy axis is renewed. I'm prepared to vote Percy, pending on unspecified parameters which I am expecting to resolve soonish. If he flips scum, I trust town to carry on with a kirroha lynch.

Those calling kirroha's blatant outrage at the prospect of a Percy lynch should take into account the scale of her prior scumtells. It may be out of proportion, but I don't think it's unthinkable that scum would be so blatant.

I am not really liking that Mitey seems to want to throw suspicion on kirroha and me simultaneously in a very offhanded way.

[Korts]

Hrm.

unvote, vote: Percy

I leave this game in good hands I hope.

[Korts]

@Korts: You voted Kmd, and now you've voted me. Can you explain why?

Because I think you're scum. The Kmd vote has also been explained already.

[Korts]

I actually wasn't too concerned with KMD's statements. Personally I agree that in the odd chance that Percy is town (I'm not sold on that either) he's playing terribly. With the "fight" between KMD and Percy, I'm absolutely convinced that they're not scumbuddies together. They *might* be townies together, but I don't think that's as likely as KMD-town and Percy-scum, though I'm firmly of the opinion that KMD is town.

Lots of verbal 180 turns in this post. "but", "though", "actually". I always thought that sounded kinda fake.

I have decided against reading any more Percy/Kmd arguments. Also, on review I keep second-guessing myself on Percy. One time I am firm in thinking he's scum, next I get the feeling he's genuinely town. I'm back to liking the kirroha wagon more.

unvote, vote: kirroha

[Korts]

With a kirrohascum flip, I think it's evident what I have to do.

vote Korts

[Korts]

Lol Amished you still think I'm scum after I self-hammered?

[Korts]

Bah. Well good game, Kmd. I would probably have gone after you after the Percy flip.