Mafia 98 - Apennine Mafia (Game Over)

[Zachrulez]

Alexhansin post 12 you stated that we have 4 mislynches on the premise that there are 3 scum.

15 mislynch 14
Kill to 13

13 to 12
kill to 11

11 to 10
kill to 9

9 to 8
Kill to 7 and game over right?

So if there's 4 scum, isn't it actually 3 mislynches max? Since a 4th would be a scum win?

That seems unbalanced to me. Especially given that town has no power roles.

I believe if you have 3 scum in the game, that we do in fact get 4 mislynches, and 5 if there are 2 scum.

I actually think 3 scum is a better guess for what we have in this game, possibly even 2. (Though 3 looks more balanced, as with 2 the town could theoretically win way faster than scum could.)

Anyway, I'm not really liking the speculation on the NK that's coming from Mastin. Him and Camm are sticking out to me as potential scum right now.

As is Gieff, due to his attacks on Jammer over stating 4 scum as fact being some kind of "scum slip." I don't subscribe heavily into that as a strong scumtell. In fact given that 3 scum tends to make a lot more sense in this kind of a setup, I think it's more likely that Gieff is scum attacking Jammer's "slip."

So

Vote: Gieff

[Zachrulez]

Seriously, guys.

SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT THE KILL.

Its something the Scum have 100% control over, and I'm betting most/all of the Scum are now trying to use that to also control the Day phase.

QFT

[Zachrulez]

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... ountainous

The example game provided had 2 scum for a 12 player game for a 2:10 ratio.

That's a pretty balanced setup for a game with no power roles.

4:12 just seems to favor the scum way too much without any power roles to compensate.

3:13 gets pretty close to the ratio of the mountainous game in the example on that wiki page. (It does look to favor scum a little bit more though, but not significantly.)

2:14 powers the town significantly more than the 2:10 in the example.

When you take those numbers into account, 3 scum makes the most sense.

[Zachrulez]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 31&start=0

For mafia discussion on the percentages. It's an old thread, but it seems generally agreed upon that 25% scum in a game calls for some kind of power roles to balance it.

[Zachrulez]

Jammer, your scumminess drops because you went along so easily with an assertion from Alexhans that there are 4 scum, and it's becoming quite apparent that 3 scum is likely based on how the distribution of roles would have to be to get the closest to balancing this game.

If anything I think it's an indication that you are town, because you went along with a game setup that likely isn't in play, nor did you quickly challenge Alexhans' assertion of 4 scum as a snap reflex. (Because if you were scum you would know he's wrong.)

I feel reasonably safe in calling you as town.

[Zachrulez]

Though your case on Gieff is pretty bad.

[Zachrulez]

Unvote:

Still not liking any of the Jammer votes. Gieff's doesn't stand out anymore though, and his position seems reasonable.

Post 6

and

Post 10

These posts establish an attempt by Mastin to both clear himself based on the nightkill and gather scum suspects based on the nightkill.

Like Sensfan pointed out not too far back in the game, what's up with all this nightkill speculation?

Control of the game based on the nightkill seems to be Mastin's motive, and I'm happy to put a vote on him. (I'm clear! But these people are scummy because they know Has!)

Vote: Mastin

[Zachrulez]

@Zach, I'm surprised that makes you feel save in calling me town.
Would you have voted me if I stated that there where 3 mafia?

Eh, I don't really subscribe to the theory that it's a strong scum slip, so no.

[Zachrulez]

Unvote:

Still not liking any of the Jammer votes. Gieff's doesn't stand out anymore though, and his position seems reasonable.

Post 6

and

Post 10

These posts establish an attempt by Mastin to both clear himself based on the nightkill and gather scum suspects based on the nightkill.

Like Sensfan pointed out not too far back in the game, what's up with all this nightkill speculation?

Control of the game based on the nightkill seems to be Mastin's motive, and I'm happy to put a vote on him. (I'm clear! But these people are scummy because they know Has!)

Vote: Mastin

do you know Has?

I've played with Has once. He replaced into a game I was playing. I was town, he was scum.

[Zachrulez]

Jammer, your scumminess drops because you went along so easily with an assertion from Alexhans that there are 4 scum, and it's

becoming quite apparent

that 3 scum is likely based on how the distribution of roles would have to be to get the closest to balancing this game.

Don't be so sure.

DO NOT DISCARD 4 scumteam. It may bite us in the ass if we mislynch thrice.

Not discarding it completely. Filing it into the highly unlikely category.

I feel reasonably safe in calling you as town.

Do not count your townies until they flip... Remember Steph?

*Cringes.* I still blame Hoopla for that loss... Ryan and Steph were my top suspects and I didn't realize it was lylo. Still, I was a big factor in preventing Steph's lynch early on.

There were other factors that blinded me to Stephoscope. I've had this problem with a few specific players. It is something I have somewhat recently started to beat out of my play style.

Point taken however...

[Zachrulez]

Alexhans, why so upset about Mastin being bandwagoned?

[Zachrulez]

Alexhans, why so upset about Mastin being bandwagoned?

Do you want a scummy so you can appear to scumhunt or you want the real deal?

Scummy answer) Because We are scumpartners and Im totally defending him... oh... and we are 7 scum btw... this is actually lylo

Real answer) I see no reasons for voting him but atacking the first one who makes something to move the game. He is acting as he usually does and his auto-clearing doesn't seem scummy to me. Just mastin's personality. I should check a game where he is scum to have more information but from what I have now he is not scummy.

I'm not liking a fast waggon on an active, pro town player...

We should worry about those who DONT post or post null opinions and keep discussing everything...

I totally get to throw this in your face now.

Don't count your townies before they flip.

[Zachrulez]

Dude... I'm not saying he is a townie... I just HATE his waggon right now when there's still players who haven't posted and I don't really get the reasons behind the Mastin votes.

I will admit that it is a tad interesting WHO joined the bandwagon on him.

[Zachrulez]

Also, if you're not saying he's town, you shouldn't be saying this.

I'm not liking a fast waggon on an active, pro town player...

Just sayin...

[Zachrulez]

@Zachrulz--why are you essentially answering for Gieff in post 57?

My intention wasn't to answer for Gieff, but to illustrate something to Jammer that should have been pretty obvious that he was having difficulty understanding.

[Zachrulez]

I need to catch up.

Expect my posting level to be lower than normal on the weekends.

[Zachrulez]

If you're a cop, you should claim now, and save us some time.

First, this is a mountainous set up. There are only goons and vanilla. Second, if we did have powerroles, this is a horrible idea and is blatantly you rolefishing.

Unvote, Vote: Battle Mage

*facepalm*

I'm well aware of the setup thanks. Whether Alex was or not, im not so sure. Why would you not let the trap play out?

BM

This is a bunch of crap. I'm pretty certain Alexhans knows this game is Mountainous.

[Zachrulez]

While Alexhans vs Battlemage | Camn vs Geiff has been going on, Mastin has fallen off the face of this game.

What's up with that?

[Zachrulez]

Battle Mage, why did you unvote Alex?

I'm going crazy trying to read your text walls of reasoning for voting him in he first place.

[Zachrulez]

Alex, I think you just booted my post 1/4 of the way up the scroll bar there.

I still have to catch up, and the text walls are not making is easy.

Though I will say right now that I'm not liking what I am seeing from Battle Mage so far.

[Zachrulez]

Actually 269 marks the first time you've directly mentioned Mastin.

[Zachrulez]

I guess I'm missing something between this post.

Alex, jammer, GIEFF.

There's a Scum in that group.

And this one.

Hi. Who is scum?

Mastin, alex, jammer, GIEFF.

There's at least one, if not two or all three, in there.

The Mastin wagon appears to be biggest, so

Unvote, Vote: Mastin

.

---

All you people asking me to write novels about why I suspect who I do, its not going to happen. This is how I play, and I'm right a whole lot more often than I was when I wrote novels.

Besides, I think I've made it fairly obvious why I suspect all 4 of the above. If you really have no idea, read the thread. If you still have no idea, and you've done what you feel is enough looking into the matter on your own, then you can ask me.

Why suspicious of Mastin all of the sudden? I don't see you state any reasons why he is scum.

[Zachrulez]

I'm seeing from Mastin's meta that he falls behind and lurks generally regardless of his alignment.

What looks abnormal to me is the blatant night kill speculation that he uses to try to clear himself.

Perhaps you can help me out by showing me a game that nullifies that issue?

[Zachrulez]

If one exists that is.

[Zachrulez]

I'm seeing from Mastin's meta that he falls behind and lurks generally regardless of his alignment.

What looks abnormal to me is the blatant night kill speculation that he uses to try to clear himself.

Perhaps you can help me out by showing me a game that nullifies that issue?

Please don't ignore what followed the top line...

[Zachrulez]

What's bothering me about Alex's defense of Mastin was how he clinged to me saying that I thought the falling behind and lurking was null, but ignored what followed which was me citing my problems with his nightkill speculation, which I found to be more striking than the lurking point.

[Zachrulez]

What's bothering me about Alex's defense of Mastin was how he clinged to me saying that I thought the falling behind and lurking was null, but ignored what followed which was me citing my problems with his nightkill speculation, which I found to be more striking than the lurking point.

Zach, I didn't ignore it. But it was not relevant to my talk with VP Baltar.

Most of you seem to think that NK speculation is scummy. By that token you not only have to suspect Mastin but me and some others too...

Do you always suspect those who NK speculate? ehh zach? In all your games? I guess not. Because when Panzer told us it was scummy to speculate about it in Mini 761 we all went against him.

Oh what a lie!

You are totally misleading this group of players by trying to represent that it was the primary reason I voted to lynch Panzer in that game.

If you recall the way the events unfolded, I was FINE with Panzer's suspicions on the NK speculation, and was in agreement with him that it was scummy. EVERYONE ELSE in the game went against him for that and I ultimately voted for him because he fake claimed as a vanilla townie and his claim didn't add up.

FOS: Alexhans

[Zachrulez]

Does it not matter in the least that Mastin is known to speculate on night kills when scum, and you haven't addressed a town game where he's done so like he has here?

Why are you defending Mastin so hard? I must pose the question since there's only one way you can know his alignment for sure.

[Zachrulez]

And you're not investigating anyone at all Alex, you're suspecting people for being suspicious of Mastin for perfectly valid reasons, and spending more energy defending him than would be considered normal for a player who isn't supposed to know anything more than their own alignment.

[Zachrulez]

But anyway, in all those 761 quotes you pulled, all you've proven is that I SHOULD have gone after the NK speculation in that game harder than I did.

What's your point?

[Zachrulez]

EBWOP: It may not be clear but I added 761 Zach quotes over there.

You neglected to point out that paticular ISO post was written in April, and that Stephoscope and Lester both speculated about night, and both turned out to be scum.

Given that, it must be difficult to see it as possible that my stance has changed huh?

[Zachrulez]

Hell, even Ryan speculated on the night kill in that game looking back and re-reading it now.

[Zachrulez]

My 16th and 18th posts in ISO should help you with my feelings on that at the time.

But primarily it's the "claim trap" he claims to have tried to use on Alex.

And also unvoting Alex after numerous text walls attacking him to bandwagon Gieff.

You can probably add lurking and not answering my inquiries to the list now too.

[Zachrulez]

sigh...

Mastin is to you what Stephoscope was to me.

Believe it.

[Zachrulez]

Though given what I know about your feelings on lurking, I do find it VERY strange that you are defending Mastin right now.

[Zachrulez]

Okay, while I'm trying to make sense of the last few pages here, I am going to throw a simplified summary of what I see so far in them.

Gieff unvotes Mastin

Gieff votes BM

Gieff makes case on BM

Gieff abandons case on BM

hours

later to vote for camn.

All the while the last few pages have a lot of talk about Camn and Gieff and none about Mastin, who has been lurking up until yesterday, has speculated on the NK heavier than what I believe to be normal for his meta, and has is "catching up" but upon his last posting only seemed to have gotten to the end of page 3.

Is that a pretty accurate recollection of what's been going on so far?

[Zachrulez]

I'd really like to see Mastin comment on events that HAVEN'T happened in the first 4 pages of the game.

Seriously, after all this time he's only THAT far into that game? That's just unacceptable...

[Zachrulez]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/search.p ... hor=Mastin

7 posts and 36 hours since Mastin was taking a break to eat.

Yeah.

Can we lynch him yet?

[Zachrulez]

I need to catch up from like page 16... hell I might even need to go even further back to make sense of everything.

The impression I'm getting of Gieff though is that he is looking to make a case stick on someone that isn't Mastin. I'm not really liking it.

Perhaps Gieff wants to summarize his case on Camn in short form so that it's easier for me to read as opposed to the pages of back and forth between them. I really don't see what all this fuss is about Camn being super scummy or what not, I'm just seeing a scummy Mastin lurking, and Gieff giving him exactly the king of distraction he needs at this point by trying to shift pressure somewhere else. First on Battlemage, a case you abandoned quite quickly, (And I just glanced that he called you town... and I don't really understand why.) and then on Camn.

There's also that case on Jammer that I called him out on that he quickly abandoned. Just making sure that his voting patterns aren't getting lost in the shuffle here.

[Zachrulez]

If I recall correctly. Zach buddied up to you at the beginning of the game.

Where did I buddy up to BM? What the hell are you talking about?

[Zachrulez]

No... I'm mistaken... You agreed with SF about NK speculation is bad because scum had control over it...

Doesn't matter really. It was a vague memory... that's why I said IIRC.

It does matter. If you're going to accuse me of things I'm not doing, it's actually quite important and game relevant Alex.

[Zachrulez]

ok so just add Zach to my list.

After reading the last page or so, do you really want to maintain that I am in Alex's buddy brigade?

[Zachrulez]

Alex, I was addressing a comment you made about me that was untrue. I don't know what fantasy world you're living in where you think I'm terrified of it. I'm rightly calling you out for it.

I'm don't see how quoting for truth a post sensfan made that I happened to agree with is buddying.

[Zachrulez]

As I glance through the vote count now, I see that Mastin only has 2 votes which makes me want to cry. How long are we going to let him lurk without fully addressing his scummy behavior before we pull the trigger.

Will take a look at the Camn bandwagon and case as I get time today.

[Zachrulez]

I just copied and pasted page 22 (where Gieff's case on camn is) into word, and it took up something like 24 pages.

Just a point I felt like making right now to show the relative difficulty in reading and staying caught up in this entire game.

How long do you think it takes to read a word document that is 20 pages long?

That's probably not even one of the bigger pages either...

[Zachrulez]

Why is Gieff town?

[Zachrulez]

My top 3 right now would be:

Mastin
Alexhans
Gieff

Don't like Alex's constant defenses of Mastin. Also not liking how he's saying I'm doing things I'm not doing and then saying I'm freaking out about it. (As if it's scummy to be concerned about untruths being seen as fact in a game this large where it's awfully tempting not to fully verify those kinds of statements.)

Don't like Gieff diverting attention from Mastin.

It seems like so long ago, but while I'm going through his camn case, one of his reference posts references back to a case he made on Mastin (when he vote was actually on Mastin.) back in post 107. Mastin has still only read up to page 4, and thus has almost certainly NOT addressed this case. yet Gieff is content to give him a pass simply because he's not posting right now.

Lurking is a great way to let offenses just slip away and gradually get blurrier, as you try to shine the spotlight on more recent actions.

If nobody agrees with my BM or camn cases (which seems likely, based on how many people have called it crap, or not even noticed it), I'll switch my vote back to Mastin. As I said before, I may be falling victim to just finding scummy things from people who have posted a lot, allowing those who aren't posting as often to slip through the cracks.

I think that statement summarizes what I'm trying to say best.

What bothers you more Gieff, players who engage you and respond to your cases, or players that don't?

[Zachrulez]

Once I get on lunch, I will give your Camn case a look and try to get a post up letting you know what I think of it Gieff.

[Zachrulez]

I do find Camn agreeing with BM's town read on you strange though.

[Zachrulez]

Alright

To point 1 in Gieff's case on page 22

Yeah, this seems off. I read around this point a bit and the summary of what I see from it is that you made note of her buddying you. She claimed she likes to buddy and challenged you to meta her on that point, and then apparently voted you for doing so. (Yikes!)

Point 2: Is Camn a known lurker lyncher? If so, this point could have merits, especially if she has actively avoided voting lurkers. (Which would need to be verified with an iso read probably)

Point 3: I do see this point. Though I have seen games where townies play this way. Out of all three points in the case, this one is probably the weakest IMO.

It seems so long ago, but I do believe Camn hit my radar around the same time I started suspecting Mastin. I will have to go through and see if I can remember why I found her suspicious early on.

I still favor lynching Mastin at this point.

[Zachrulez]

Zach

666 Zach: Zach, you're not playing enough. How am I supposed to read you if I don't interact with you in any way...?
None of the things I say were accusations of being scum... I just wanted to know how you reacted. But to every question you reacted at me as if I were framing you or something.
And for the rest of your sentence... whatever man...

I have as many posts as you Alex, I don't know what you're trying to get at that I'm not playing enough. I find it disturbing that I'm already being called a lurker. Is 50 posts at this point not enough?

You wanted to see how I'd react to false points on me? How do you expect me to react? How would YOU react? Your foundation is crumbling before you even started laying the bricks. How can you justify your actions when you are making false points on me? It's ridiculous.

Oh I was wrong, but look at how you reacted to it! *change subject to new point.*

[Zachrulez]

ZACH

You actually have MORE posts than I do... So? Does it mean that you've given you've participated on more levels of this game than me? No. Also, note that a great deal of your posts are directed at me thanks to my interactions with you.

Very well Alex, you are the authority on activity. Have a medal.

You wanted to see how I'd react to false points on me? How do you expect me to react? How would YOU react? Your foundation is crumbling before you even started laying the bricks. How can you justify your actions when you are making false points on me? It's ridiculous.

I was wrong about you buddying BM. Just that. So stop acting like a beaten up child.

You also characterized my position on NK speculation, charging that I lynched Panzer based on his belief that NK speculation was scummy. My past position on NK speculation has nothing to do with what you tried to pull here.

You put me on 2nd place becauase I asked you questions or talked about you and because I defended Mastin when his waggon had only crap reasons (save his auto clearing that only few mentioned).

Who said you were 2nd? The points against Mastin are night kill speculation that he used to argue himself clear, (2 for 1!) and now lurking as he's been asked to address this case on him. What about that is crap?

Why haven't you called SensFan or KMD on their Camn defenses? Or do CAPS shock you?

Have they actively tried to derail a Camn wagon? (You can probably argue that VP just pulled that in his latest post.)

Do you see it as my duty to call out Camn's defenders based on the fact that I called you out for defending Mastin even though I don't find Camn as scummy as Mastin?

[Zachrulez]

hold on... VP... So I take it that you think I'm scum with Mastin then?

You win nothing because it's a crappy line... crappy lines don't make cases and they definetly don't allow for pushing a lynch as you did.

Not directed at me but I want to answer anyway.

I think it's possible that both you and Mastin are scum.

Think it's most likely that one of the two of you is scum.

And see it as unlikely that both of you are town.

[Zachrulez]

What I said about 761 was correct. And you even said Mastin was like Steph to me (meaning you thought me town?)

This is mainly why I am not voting for you. Because that is a possibility.

IF you make a list with 3 people and I'm after mastin... I assume I'm 2nd in your list... Mastin's lurking is making me put him in the null read list right now but his play earlier in the game wasn't scummy enough to warrant such a waggon. I still mantain that.

Meta has been argued that he has a tendency toward lurking as scum. Meta I happen to agree with.

about Camn's defenders: No... But I think that I think that being inconsistent might be an indicative of scum. Why would you have different standards about a topic?

And I think that they DO have tried to actively derail the waggon. Look at KMD and tell me I'm wrong.

I was able to call you out so quickly on your Mastin defence because it happened to early in the game. Any defenses of Camn are happening somewhere in the pages and pages of content that are flying into this game as lightning speed and are not easy to catch.

If people are actively defending Camn, it is worth noting. Make sure you're not confusing inconsistancy with difficulty in keeping up with what's going on in the game.

I still want to know what you think of Camn.

[Zachrulez]

Zach: Sensfan did try to de-rail ilt

I don't think VP Baltar is trying to de-rail it so much as "re-rail" a Mastin wagon.

They're both de-railing in the interest of starting a Mastin or Alexhans wagon. Personally I don't like the idea of lynching Alexhans today, I think Mastin is a far better play. Too many doubts on Alexhans in my mind even though he is undeniably playing scummy.

Thanks for the nice note, Baltar. I think Mastin is scummy and of absolutely no use if town, and if the camn-wagon fizzles, I will be right there with you on it. But I am VERY convinced camn is

town

, and she is a much better lynch than Mastin right now.

Don't you mean you're convinced she is scum? Yeah, that's probably a typo, but those kind of things make me weary.

[Zachrulez]

I do find Camn agreeing with BM's town read on you strange though.

really? Because, to be perfectly honest, Camn said Gieff was town, WAY before i did. So if anyone was agreeing, it's me.

BM

Where did she say he was town for the first time?

[Zachrulez]

I don't see why there's so much resistance to a Mastin lynch here.

There's a case, that Mastin apparently can't be bothered to respond to so he lurks, and lurks and lurks and lurks and lurks...

Meanwhile, all these other bandwagons get shoved down our throats over him.

I am wondering if everyone on Alex's bandwagon is truly convinced he is more likely scum than Mastin or is simply bandwagoning him to avoid lynching Mastin.

[Zachrulez]

Is there a person in the game besides alex who is NOT against a Mastin lynch?

Not my favorite lynch, but I'd support it over a lynch of about half the players in the game.

What about Alex do you find scummier than Mastin?

[Zachrulez]

Too many doubts on Alexhans in my mind even though he is undeniably playing scummy.

Can you detail these doubts? If he's "undeniably playing scummy", then why the hesitation?

As bad as his defense of Mastin is. That mini 761 that we keep dredging up featured me defending Stephoscope as town in a very similar manner. Stephoscope turned out to be scum.

For that reason, I can't completely dismiss the possibility that he's town blinded to Mastin's actions.

[Zachrulez]

Jammer's not being lynched today.

Accept it and vote for Mastin.

[Zachrulez]

At this point I would like a further explanation from Jammer about why he unvoted Mastin in post 750.

[Zachrulez]

Overly long days can hurt the town every bit as much as overly short ones can.

[Zachrulez]

You think Mastin is scum right?

[Zachrulez]

You really think a Mastin lynch is going to give the town no information?

I think you need to take a look at all the votes that are floundering on and off the wagon...

[Zachrulez]

The point is, that there is information there.

[Zachrulez]

Don't think that little piece of vote bartering you did with Alex has gone unnoticed by me...

[Zachrulez]

And yet lynching Mastin and learning his alignment for certainty will shed a whole lot more light on that matter then unvoting him will...

[Zachrulez]

Moar votes on Mastin please.

[Zachrulez]

I think I need to iso Alex.

I get the impression that Alex takes the coaching attitude as an aspect of his playing style, but I want to take a closer look and verify that.

[Zachrulez]

And I don't want to get into any of this chain lynching talk, or presuming who's still going to be alive tomorrow. That is really putting me off.

[Zachrulez]

You were reading when made a big fuss about me not calling out the detractors of the Camn wagon right?

[Zachrulez]

OK, so just lynch alex for coaching a player that acts scummy instead of attacking her.

Or lynch him for "undeniably playing scummy," as a wise poster once said.

This attempt to goad me into voting Alex REALLY leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth and makes me think Gieff is looking REALLY hard for a non-Mastin case that will stick.

[Zachrulez]

Zach, if I were trying to protect Mastin, would I risk putting him at L-1, even if just for 30 minutes?

If I were trying to protect Mastin, why would I give the first real reasons for his wagon? A Mastin lynch would be OK, but I think an alex-lynch would be better.



As many others have said before, the two most-agreed-upon lynch candidates are alex and Mastin. YOU YOURSELF find alex scummy. What's the big deal?

WIFOM...

WAIT FOR IT!...

Next Gieff is going to say I'm scum with Camn and Alex.

[Zachrulez]

You are paranoid, Zach.

Well I've been suspicious of you pretty much all day, so I don't exactly trust what you say...

[Zachrulez]

So you were fine enough with a Mastin lynch to push him to lynch -1, but suddenly now after Alex posts, WHO HAS LOOKED SUSPICIOUS THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR PRETTY MUCH MOST OF THE DAY ANYWAY, you're suddenly less ok with a Mastin lynch.

What the hell is the deal with that?

None of this is suddenly very new. All this evidence against Alex has been there for quite some time now.

What's changed since say... the start of today up to now? The fact that the town is becoming more open to the idea of lynching Mastin?

Every time the possibility of lynching Mastin becomes real, you look for another suspect. It's getting ridiculous.

[Zachrulez]

And this is not the first time Gieff has left the Mastin wagon.

As I look back through the game I notice his first unvote in favor of pursuing Battle Mage in post 361.

A vote change that came pretty shortly after Mastin started posting again in posts 359 and 360.

I'm going to take a little break from this for now though, but I'm going to have a browse through the other 600 posts to refresh my memory on what else pulled Gieff off the Mastin wagon as well. (And going through all those posts is not fun at all...)

[Zachrulez]

No, my evidence against alex is quite new.

And it doesn't just make alex scummy, it makes Mastin less likely to be scum. Scum don't try to win town-points by being against scum-lynches.

Bullshit, it's well known that Alex is defending Mastin.

What is new is your spin on his behavior that was suddenly triggered by Alex posting while Mastin was at lynch -1 which is not distinctly different or contradictory from his stance on Mastin at all.

[Zachrulez]

Maybe, on a meta-level, Geiff is ALSO trying to gain townie points by setting himself against the Mastin wagon.

Odds are Mastin will not survive until endgame unless his play changes DRAMATICALLY.... so this whole gambit, if Mastin flips town, can easily be referred back to by Geiff to try and gain cred.

It could really be the same thing he is accusing Alex of, only much more clever. Kinda need to see the flip, though.

-----------------

and if mastin does flip town. Alex's over excessive defense is certainly something to note.

What if Mastin flips scum? Is Alex's defense less notable then?

I think in order to make any kind of sense of Alexhans, we really need to see Mastin's flip, and Alexhans' reaction to it.

A piece of information Gieff seems to REALLY not want us to have.

[Zachrulez]

I'm opposed to lynching Alexhans today yes.

[Zachrulez]

Yes, that camn-alex buddy theory is looking more and more far-fetched by the minute.


Thank you for your rational response, Zach.


I eagerly await the responses of the 7 people who DO find alex scummy.

Benmage and camn have short-sightedly ruined the Mastin-wagon,

leaving you all free to switch over to the alex-wagon and end this day.

You're blaming them when you unvoted Mastin first? What the hell man?

[Zachrulez]

@Spryex, jammer, zach, sensfan, battle mage, and kmd

How do you guys feel about lynching Gieff today? You've all previously voted him.

He's my 2nd choice for a lynch.

[Zachrulez]

Zach, this post is from yesterday:

My top 3 right now would be:

Mastin
Alexhans
Gieff

It seems to me that your increased suspicion of me over the last day is based primarily on your suspicion I am trying to stop a Mastin-lynch - is this accurate?

And is the reason you are now against an Alex-lynch (even though you were for it yesterday) the fact that I am the one pushing it?

Where in my list does it say I am 2nd most suspicious of Alex? Do I actually say he's 2nd on the list? (For this you would have actually had to have read the exchange between Alex and myself.)

As it is, the two of you were pretty interchangeable at the time, which is why I never clearly stated an order, but listed the two of you below Mastin.

Things have changed a bit since then. You're more clear as a 2nd suspect for me, and Alex is more clear as a 3rd.

And I was for an Alexhans lynch? Really? Is that why I never jumped on the wagon and continued pushing for Mastin's lynch?

[Zachrulez]

Alright what the fuck... a game just started and Mastin is posting there, yet magically still avoiding this thread.

Thank you for clarifying why Mastin needs to die like yesterday.

[Zachrulez]

It just seems inconsistent be against the lynch of somebody in your top 3 scummiest players. So I was wondering how much of that was because I am the one pushing his wagon.

Way to move those goalposts.

With a statement like this it would be hard to believe that you once said that I once supported a lynch of Alexhans today that I suddenly don't now.

Now it's strange that I support lynching my top suspect over my 2nd or my 3rd who have more votes. Very sly there man.

My position has been quite clear all day. I suspect Alex, but I don't suspect him enough to vote for him, nor enough to support lynching him. Stop thinking that your case should magically change everything.

I'm opposed to lynching Alexhans today yes.

what do YOU think of Jammer? In 50 words or more please.

BM

I don't need to dignify this with a response. Reading me in iso should give you a pretty clear idea about my thoughts on Jammer.

So you were fine enough with a Mastin lynch to push him to lynch -1, but suddenly now after Alex posts, WHO HAS LOOKED SUSPICIOUS THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR PRETTY MUCH MOST OF THE DAY ANYWAY, you're suddenly less ok with a Mastin lynch.

What the hell is the deal with that?

None of this is suddenly very new. All this evidence against Alex has been there for quite some time now.

What's changed since say... the start of today up to now? The fact that the town is becoming more open to the idea of lynching Mastin?

Every time the possibility of lynching Mastin becomes real, you look for another suspect. It's getting ridiculous.

You've just drawn level in the contest to be Alex's scumbuddy. Congrats.

BM

Notice how BM links me to Alex so that Gieff doesn't have to actually say it. Nice.

[Zachrulez]

I think Zach is townie, and NOT alex's buddy.


Zach, I thought you were AGAINST an alex lynch, i.e. would actively try to disrupt it as Benmage and camn are doing. But are you saying that you are not against it, just less for it than a me- or Mastin-lynch?

You need to read my posts clearly.

I'm against an Alex lynch TODAY. Note the capitalized word.

[Zachrulez]

Unvote: Vote: Gieff

Shoving a sub par Alexhans case down our throats in the face of a perfectly viable Mastin lynch is enough for me to do this. I'm tiring of it quickly.

What I'm seeing is a crafty effort to derail the Mastin wagon with a case that can be made more solidly after Mastin's lynch on day 2. (Assuming Alex even survives the night.)

[Zachrulez]

I'm more than happy to lynch Mastin, but as long as his wagon continues to derail, and as long as Gieff is intent to keep it from happening, I am happy to vote for him instead.

[Zachrulez]

After over 1000 posts I can not believe that Mastin has not been lynched yet.

What does the inability to get support for his lynch say about his alignment? I mean... seriously?

[Zachrulez]

jammer: If you read clearly... I'm resigned to a mastin lynch and I even prefer it over a camn lynch. Yes, GIEFF, I do. Being such a controversial player at this point (and not helping at all with all his lurking) he is almost the correct lynch unless you're sure of someone else.

That someone else is Battle Mage. Who now has made a 180 flip to jump and protect mastin... He went for camn... and then used jammer as a trampoline to get.... me?

come on...

BS.

YESTERDAY, you came in at L-1 and said "Please don't hammer, guys" and voted for Battle Mage.

And now, magically, you are resigned to a Mastin lynch? Does this have anything to do with self-preservation?

You're misrepping.

Alex said "please don't hammer before I get a chance to post", not "please don't hammer guys."

[Zachrulez]

GIEFF: Are you blind?

DONT HAMMER UNTIL I POST I SAID!! I've posted.

Yes. I rather live (I know Im town) and let mastin die and see what happens tomorrow.

If I had a nightkill... I would kill you so you would shut up with your stupid questions...

Why is Cephrir hurting the game more than blackcatcontract/Kairyuu or Mastin?

Cephir has 4 Posts... he is TOTALLY unreadable. bcc and mastin are list are supposedly catching up. Cephir is not. he did the same thing in mafia 91.

Cephrir is not necissarily unreadable. Gieff was so kind as to provide meta data that suggests Ceph lurks a lot more as town than he does as scum.

I have played with Cephrir once and he was scum. He lurked, but he would check into the game every now and then in order to steer the town toward mislynching. This is something that he is not doing in this game, and I think is somewhat notable.

[Zachrulez]

Maybe there was a lot of it's Alex or Mastin, but the choice was made overwhelmingly for Mastin, and you singlehandedly decided you didn't like that choice and are trying to chose Alex for us, even though most of us have already made up our mind about a Mastin lynch.

[Zachrulez]

We agreed on Mastin and Gieff finds that unacceptable. He's the key that's spreading all the votes around right now.

[Zachrulez]

For Jammer.

A few questions of mine back on page 9 slipped through the cracks - here they are:




Sensfan - Top half of Post 219]

Battle Mage - Bottom half of Post 219] - do you still think Mastin is town?

Alex - Post 222


------------


Apparently, a lot of the games of Cephrir's wiki don't actually have Cephrir in them... does she have an alt I'm not aware of or something?

Here are the ones I did find:

[mrow]Game[col]Alignment[col]Posts / Day[col]1,000's of Chars / DayMini 564[col]Scum[col]1[col]0.5Mini 717[col]Scum[col]1.1[col]0.3Final Fantasy VII][col]SK[col]0.6[col]0.2Mafia 69[col]Town[col]0.5[col]0.2Mafia 82[col]Town[col]0.7[col]0.1Consulmaker[col]Town[col]0.3[col]0This Game[col]?[col]0.7[col]0.3


So from a meta standpoint, Cephrir actually lurks more as town than scum. I don't know how you can play averaging just a couple hundred characters a day, but it is what it is.

----------
An analysis of players who have voted for me:

jammer

jammer - Vote: GIEFF(Post 57)
jammer - Unvote: GIEFF Vote: Cephrir(Post 205)

Still not sure what you meant in post 57, jammer. You didn't follow up at all, really.

camn

camn - unvote Vote :GIEFF (Post 65)
camn - UNVOTE(Post 146)
camn - Vote : Gieff(Post 150)
camn - UNVOTE vote: Benmage(Post 305)

No real explanation from camn for two completely toothless votes.

VP Baltar

VP Baltar - Vote GIEFF(Post 113)
VP Baltar - Unvote, Vote: Mastin(Post 237)

Some explanation, based on me attacking jammer. But nothing after this.

Battle Mage

Battle Mage - Unvote, Vote: Alex Hans(Post 111)
Battle Mage - Confirm Vote: Alex(Post 143)
Battle Mage - Unvote, Vote: Gieff(Post 214)

This is my favorite. He unvotes Mastin because he is assuming alex is scum, which he claims means Mastin is certainly town. He CONFIRMS this vote. And then switches to me, ignoring the question about what this means about his feelings about Mastin's alignment. And, of course, no explanation whatsoever for his vote for me, although he provided oodles for alex.

SensFan

SensFan - Vote: GIEFF(Post 209)
SensFan - Unvote, Vote: Mastin(Post 270)

Claims it was because I misrepresented him. Ignored my response to this claim. No other follow-up before hopping on the Mastin-wagon.

Kmd4390

Kmd4390 - Unvote, Vote GIEFF(Post 320)

No explanation.



So, the question is - why would five separate players vote for me, most of whom do so without any decent reasoning (I believe Baltar and jammer's reasons, but they provide very little follow-up), and NONE of whom do so strongly thinking I am scum (as evidenced by their lack of pressure and subsequent switches off of me).

Or is this all just a coincidence?

[Zachrulez]

Mastin is at L-5 (voted by DDD, Baltar, and KMD). alex is at L-6 (voted by me and Battle Mage)

KMD: your vote is the difference between Mastin being closer to a lynch and alex. All you have to do is switch, and the world will come following after. The glory is yours for the taking, KMD. Can you taste it?

Unvote: Vote: Mastin

[Zachrulez]

You're also ignoring Benmage and Camn, who are willing to lynch Mastin.

[Zachrulez]

And who should change their votes back to Mastin at this point.

[Zachrulez]

VP: I demand pictures of you painting yourself purple.

[Zachrulez]

Vote: Benmage

[Zachrulez]

No townie has that much content ready to post at daybreak.

[Zachrulez]

Ick, self vote...

[Zachrulez]

Jammer does pose an interesting question though.

What is with the sudden loss of interest in Gieff as a lynch?

[Zachrulez]

So you believe Benmage and Alex are both scum then?

[Zachrulez]

1121 is for Gieff.

Kinda simulposted with Camn there.

[Zachrulez]

Ick, self vote...

Yeah your an idiot. I posted to much on daybreak...thats fuckign laughable. What scum sinks their teeth into the game the way I did? Noone. Scum don't want to take a forefront position. They want to remain off radar, aloof which is why I iso'd some of the people I had poor reads on/contributed significantly less than others.

Wow, I think I just choked on that WIFOM.

[Zachrulez]

Wow, I think I just choked on that WIFOM.

Yeah, so get camn and everyone else to vote. Your read is going to be perfect aye?

To be fair, you're mostly bringing this on yourself right now.

[Zachrulez]

Don't you mean 5 r-tards?

Or does your vote not count?

[Zachrulez]

And your vote would be the most r-tarded of them all if you think about it.

Because you're the one that knows what your alignment is.

[Zachrulez]

And your vote would be the most r-tarded of them all if you think about it.

Because you're the one that knows what your alignment is.

Not at this point. My agenda has shifted. When I die and flip town, hopefully the other maybe sensible townspeople lynch these r-tard scums.

Who are the r-tard scum?

[Zachrulez]

Got a case?

My official response is try again.

[Zachrulez]

Got a case?

My official response is try again.

Your play is poor and scummy. Or take the case of "my gut".

Well then you should be voting for me shouldn't you?

Why aren't you?

[Zachrulez]

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my life.

[Zachrulez]

Because the sheep in this game are blind.

Benmage: 4 people are voting you - me, Zach, jammer, and Sens. Which of those 4 are the scum, and which are the sheep bilndly following?

He's already named me as scum. (Without a vote.)

[Zachrulez]

So, if you are town, please play the game.

Oh but I am...this is fun for me, is it fun for you?

Let's just lynch Benmage and move on. He's doing nothing for the town. It's ridiculous.

[Zachrulez]

You'd have a point if you weren't voting for yourself. That destroys any credibility you thought you had.

[Zachrulez]

You'd have a point if you weren't voting for yourself. That destroys any credibility you thought you had.

I'm just asking for parting words, so the lynch isn't rushed you can take the credibility of the statements in anyway you'd like.

I was responding to the post above your request anyway.

[Zachrulez]

What do you think of Gieff Benmage?

[Zachrulez]

And for the love of god, please unvote yourself. You'll be doing yourself a bigger favor then you think.

[Zachrulez]

DO NOT SELF HAMMER!

FFS Don't do that to us.

Look at that game from our point of view. (The ones you think are r-tard town at least.)

Our reaction to the way you came out of night is quite reasonable. I hope you can take a look and see that.

[Zachrulez]

And Benmage, I would appreciate an answer to my question about what you think of Gieff.

[Zachrulez]

And Benmage, I would appreciate an answer to my question about what you think of Gieff.

I can't give you a logical one at the moment. Too flustered/distracted to think about him rationally and recall his play. Maybe later.

There isn't any time limit on this. If you need time to think it over, then take some time to calm down and think about it.

unvote:

I'll reconsider my position on you for now and allow more discussion before I vote.

[Zachrulez]

Gieff's really got my attention through all of this.

His tone seems to have changed. Here he is making a case to prove that Benmage is scum, but he doesn't want more people to vote for him.

When he did this with Alexhans yesterday, he was openly calling for more votes to get Alex lynched as quickly as possible.

It seems strange to me.

[Zachrulez]

12 hours into Day 2 with half the players yet to post is much different than 45 pages into Day 1, with another player rapidly approaching lynch.

Which begs the question of what happened to your suspicion of Alexhans?

[Zachrulez]

Just less likely than Benmage?

[Zachrulez]

Yet you are voting for Benmage and not Alex...

[Zachrulez]

Yet you are voting for Benmage and not Alex...

You are voting for "no one."

Do you think that "no one" is scummier than Benmage? Is there a point to all your questions?

Yes there's a point.

The point is you need to die, like yesterday.

Vote: Gieff

[Zachrulez]

Jammer - the text-walls have very little to do with my vote.

Haha, i chuckled when i read this. You are voting somebody with a reasonably large wagon, despite complaining about the possibility of a quicklynch, and he isnt even your top suspect. Whats the deal?

BM

The deal is he is scum. Please vote for him.

[Zachrulez]

Gieff you basically said it yourself, your vote isn't even on your top suspect.

Now you're trying to pass it off as some kind of elaborate play. Let Alexhans react to pressure if you really think he's scum. What was the problem with the direct approach?

[Zachrulez]

Alex, I changed my mind about Benmage once he actually started being reasonable.

I'm getting a lot of mixed signals from him and it's frustrating.

I also think that Kai is most likely to be lurker scum out of all the lurkers.

[Zachrulez]

Alex, I changed my mind about Benmage once he actually started being reasonable.

I'm getting a lot of mixed signals from him and it's frustrating.

I also think that Kai is most likely to be lurker scum out of all the lurkers.

You mean BCC?? i actually felt between him and Ceph that kai was less likely scum. DDD=null.

Yeah. I have some reasoning for it, but will concede that the crux of my suspicion is gut here.

[Zachrulez]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10297

Go watch Zwet do it in this game.

I hate when people self hammer.

Now take your bullshit vote elsewhere.

[Zachrulez]

I made very clear points about your vote not being where your suspicions are.

Stop acting like I don't have any reasoning.

[Zachrulez]

Why Cephrir and not BCC?

[Zachrulez]

BM: It's a

two minute process

! If there's consistently 5 new posts every 2 minutes in this game, it's going too fast.

Vote Count:

Benmage (3): SensFan, GIEFF, jammer
GIEFF (1): Zachrulez
Cephrir (1): Battle Mage

Not Voting: alexhans, Cephrir, Debonair Danny DiPietro, blackcatcontract, camn, Kmd4390, SpyreX, Benmage

7 to lynch

I'd complain about the speed of this game, but my other 2 games are going WAY too slow. It's a nice change of pace.

[Zachrulez]

Still waiting, Zach.

Do you constantly feel the need to post the same thing 3 times?

I already said I made points, but you've apparently ignored that.

Not to mention the fact that you're being unrealistic about the speed and time limits you're expecting on me to adhere to even if I hadn't made any points on you already.

[Zachrulez]

Why Cephrir and not BCC?

Actually, i typed out a BCC vote, and somewhere in the back of my mind, i recalled a reason i felt he might be town. Will look into it later i guess. But we gotta start somewhere.

BM

I would appreciate you finding that reason for me, as I prefer voting for BCC if we must do a lurker wagon.

I think you do make a good point though about the need to pressure the lurkers to actually participate.

[Zachrulez]

Alex, I changed my mind about Benmage once he actually started being reasonable.

This is BS. You claim to have voted for Benmage because no townie has that much content at the start of a day. This has nothing to do with Benmage's subsequent irrational behavior, the cessation of which should NOT have caused you to unvote, if you were being genuine.

I think your vote was opportunistic. This whole block of text here supports my thought that your vote was opportunistic.

It's not just the actions that we're analyzing, it's the players too. Benmage's reaction gives me a town vibe. His actions were scummy, I have not turned around and suddenly argued they were not. His reaction makes me feel less strongly that he is scum.

[Zachrulez]

Why Cephrir and not BCC?

Actually, i typed out a BCC vote, and somewhere in the back of my mind, i recalled a reason i felt he might be town. Will look into it later i guess. But we gotta start somewhere.

BM

I would appreciate you finding that reason for me, as I prefer voting for BCC if we must do a lurker wagon.

I think you do make a good point though about the need to pressure the lurkers to actually participate.

Ok, will do. In the meantime, wanna fill me in on YOUR reasoning?

BM

I did not like Kai's early vote on Jammer.

They way he left that game left me thinking too. Mainly because if I was scum in a game like this, I probably would have found it as difficult to post as he did.

At any rate. I support lynching the lurkers if they won't participate. I would suggest that we give them a set amount of time to post something and then run them up if they fail to post any content within that period of time.

[Zachrulez]

I think your vote was opportunistic. This whole block of text here supports my thought that your vote was opportunistic.

What whole block of text?

Fine, I will humor you - you think my Benmage-vote was opportunistic. Opportunistic enough to vote me.


But if this is true, then what about jammer's vote for Benmage? His vote was more opportunistic (as it came later, it was OMGUS, and he said NOTHING when you were pushing the quicklynch. Why focus on me instead of jammer?

That was horrible.

I've already stated much earlier in the game that I think Jammer is town. Nice attempt to deflect though.

Also looking at Jammer's join date he's also fairly new to the game. Newbies tend to follow bandwagons with bad reasoning. (Since you'll probably want more explanation then my belief that he's town.)

[Zachrulez]

How do you think we should deal with the lurkers Gieff?

[Zachrulez]

But seriously, I think we should bandwagon one of them. I would prefer blackcatcontract, as that "character" has had TWO posters lurk with it. And because Cephrir lurks a lot as town.

See, this is something we can both agree on. It must certainly be a good idea then.

[Zachrulez]

Yeah...

I thought he was scum.

You made a pretty big thing of an argument that he was town. That's another thing that bothers me about you.

I'm not gonna lie, I'll probably be on you for as long as I am alive in this game, unless something happens at a critical moment in the game that convinces me that you are town.

I generally don't like what I am seeing from you, and neither does my gut.

That said, I'm fine with lynching either Cephrir or BCC if they won't contribute. (Preferably the latter)

[Zachrulez]

I'm still not convinced Alexhans is scum Gieff.

I'm curious to know what you think about Battlemage's resistance toward lynching BCC. Especially after stating a desire to focus on me and Jammer after a Cephrir lurker lynch. (Which seems to imply he would due this if BCC continued to lurk.)

Unvote: Vote: blackcatcontract

It looks like the preferred lynch is Cephrir. I still prefer BCC and think we should consider lynching both if they refuse to participate or be replaced.

I'm willing to switch to Cephrir if necessary, but I will note I don't like Battlemage's selectiveness here.

[Zachrulez]

I would take Battle Mage at his word about his meta on blackcatcontract, but BCC is not in any other active games besides this one, so I don't see why BM can't tell us what meta-reason he has for not suspecting him. Care to explain, BM?

Zach, did you unvote me because you are less convinced I am scum, or did you unvote me because you would just rather lynch bcc? Either way, you right now (or very recently) are not voting for the player you think is most likely to be scum. So don't you think you need a better reason to call me scum?

Touche. I will let this rest for now.

Also, what do you think about Benmage's "idiocy" lie?

I'm kinda lost here.

[Zachrulez]

I meant to voice agreement with the first quote. Forgot to actually write it in... lol

[Zachrulez]

1. Somebody asked Benmage why I was no longer on his lynch list.
2. Benmage said it was because of all "the new idiocy."
3. It is very clear, based on context, that Benmage was referring to the wagon on him.
4. The wagon on him happened AFTER he removed me from his lynch list, so this could not possibly have caused him to remove me.
5. Instead of correcting this mistake, he continued to lie, claiming that the "idiocy" was really the iso-posts he'd quoted from day 1.

Oh yeah. I remember now. I would say that's a decent point on him.

[Zachrulez]

Alexhans is not lurking.

... and Battlemage has cast votes for both me AND Gieff. Playing both sides much?

[Zachrulez]

you try hardest calling me a hypocrite or something worst everytime you have a chance? That's not cool.

the numbering responds to the paragraphs you made.

about 1. GIEFF, SF and Zach found Ben scummy for what he did. I wonder if they think your "wow, Im alive" post is scummy too or not. You called me a hypocritce for asking GIEFF a question about something I had already pointed out.

I'm pretty mature unless someone keeps trying to throw me off like you've done all game long.

FTR: I find Battlemage's "wow, I'm alive" post scummy.

[Zachrulez]

Personally I am curious as to why Battlemage is being so selective with the lurker lynching.

Though I'm sure I stated that before.

[Zachrulez]

I'm not saying any more on BCC. As far as i'm concerned, you can trust me, or not trust me. But, if you dont trust me, i'd rather you explained why:

I'm not saying why I don't trust you. As far as I'm concerned, you can trust my judgment, or not trust it. But if you don't trust it, etc. etc.

Is it a Kai-read or a bcc-read that makes you sure that character is town?

Lol, you havent given any sense of having additional knowledge that suggests Cephrir is town or BCC is scum. If you had, maybe you'd have a point. I'm not answering any more questions on my position-especially when you should be painfully aware that Cephrir is playing to his scum meta.

BM

He hasn't, but I have.

I'll go even further on Cephrir. I played a game with him where he was scum, and the tone of his lurking was completely different than the tone of his lurking in this game, and actually looks consistent with Gieff's analysis of Ceph's lurking as town.

You're the one who's unable to explain why you have no interest in lynching BCC, and make no mistake about it, if a BCC lynch pops scum, you are next on my lynch list.

[Zachrulez]

I feel like I've done this before in this game, but whatever...

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10864

[Zachrulez]

I will look into bcc and Kai's metas when I have a chance, but the fact that TWO players have lurked with the same character seems telling.

Kai, didn't necessarily lurk, but was unable to catch-up and asked to be replaced.

They have like 16 posts between the two of them.

[Zachrulez]

Actually, Zach's example looks good. That's about the level of participation we normally see from Cephrir-town, although there was a bit of inactivity mingled in the middle.

Cephrir was scum in that game.

lol... did he seriously try to pass off that Ceph was town in that game?

[Zachrulez]

Actually, Zach's example looks good. That's about the level of participation we normally see from Cephrir-town, although there was a bit of inactivity mingled in the middle.

Cephrir was scum in that game.

lol... did he seriously try to pass off that Ceph was town in that game?

Erm, no i didnt. Wtf are you guys smoking?? *cries*

Unvote, Vote: Zach

I dont see your value to the game if you arent going to read, and are merely going to ride Gieff's coattails all game.

BM

Hilarious.

[Zachrulez]

Just for anyone that will have trouble catching up. Battlemage is voting me for a misunderstanding that he caused.

Also, meta isn't everything, but meta, along with my reasoning on Kai earlier and my gut feeling, is why I support lynching BCC over Cephrir.

[Zachrulez]

Regarding Zach, i suggest you look closer at the post of his where he trusts your judgement on me 100%, without even attempting to look for himself. Seems to me, like he knows you are town. Why else would he blindly follow something just because you said it. It makes me angry.

BM

What the hell are you talking about?

It's unbelievable how full of shit you are.

[Zachrulez]

Regarding Zach, i suggest you look closer at the post of his where he trusts your judgement on me 100%, without even attempting to look for himself. Seems to me, like he knows you are town. Why else would he blindly follow something just because you said it. It makes me angry.

BM

What the hell are you talking about?

It's unbelievable how full of shit you are.

Lol, you're starting to remind me of someone... xD

BM

And you didn't answer the question.

You're just conjuring actions that don't exist out of thin air.

[Zachrulez]

*facepalm*

Post 1398. Keeps up guys!

BM

You fail.

A badly worded post that I interpreted the same way as Gieff after he pointed it out means nothing.

[Zachrulez]

I'm still not convinced Alexhans is scum Gieff.

I'm curious to know what you think about Battlemage's resistance toward lynching BCC. Especially after stating a desire to focus on me and Jammer after a Cephrir lurker lynch. (Which seems to imply he would due this if BCC continued to lurk.)

Unvote: Vote: blackcatcontract

It looks like the preferred lynch is Cephrir. I still prefer BCC and think we should consider lynching both if they refuse to participate or be replaced.

I'm willing to switch to Cephrir if necessary, but I will note I don't like Battlemage's selectiveness here.

Note the bottom line. My stance hasn't changed.

[Zachrulez]

*facepalm*

Post 1398. Keeps up guys!

BM

You fail.

A badly worded post that I interpreted the same way as Gieff after he pointed it out means nothing.

you didnt interpret it at all. You just took his response, and assumed he was correct.

BM

Instead of continuing to bicker with you here, I'll just let the town read that post and tell you how wrong you are.

[Zachrulez]

quoth the scum

That you're not voting for.

[Zachrulez]

Obviously your post is directly below Alex's.

[Zachrulez]

I need to ignore Battlemage and iso him.

I don't like what I'm seeing from him at all, and I think putting together his play as a whole will shed some light on him.

[Zachrulez]

Iso Post 2 from Battlemage.

Thought I would remind people of this post since most of his posts after are about how Alex is scum.

I've played with Hascow before and he was not a very active scum player... at least in that game. Maybe it was because the town had 80 % of lynchable material (Empking, Zwets, Dejkha, Wall-e and Hewitt). Anyway... If I had to kill... knowing there were no protections whatsoever... I would've killed... sensfan? Mastin? someone random that I don't know? Probably I wouldn't have had a voice in a scumteam....

Anyway... 16 playing... 25 % means 4 scum. 31.25 % is 5 scum... too much...
also... the n0 kill was unstoppable.. so we should count 15 playing... 33.33 % is unlikely

What I assume:
15 mislynch 14 L-8 (scum is 50 % of a lynching waggon)
14 kill 13
13 mislynch 12 L-7 (scum is 57 % of a lynching waggon)
12 kill 11
11 mislynch 10 L-6 (scum is 66.7 % of a lynching waggon)
10 kill 9
9 mislynch 8 L-5 (scum is 80 % of a lynching waggon)

we can basically mislynch 4 times (MAX). This is going to be one LONG game...



Players:
Battle Mage

SensFan (Is supposed to be good)
alexhans

GIEFF
Cephrir

VP Baltar
Debonair Danny DiPietro
Kairyuu
camn

broomhead
SpyreX

Zachrulez
Benmage
Mastin

jammer

Bolded I've either played with, or know by reputation.

this is funny...
I'm tempted to vote VP Baltar because he is always scum...
I'm tempted to vote Mastin for self voting...
I'm tempted to vote Kai to OMGUS...
I'm tempted to vote camn because she is voting her fianceé

vote: alexhans

Obvcult. Speedlynch GOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGO!

*Alexhans recruits Kai...

New postPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:02 am (Yaw posted the first post of the game)
I'm researching who to vote...

well...

Vote broomhead

because he is probably hiding among unknown players.

Mastin posted again while I was writing this... and DDD too...

Smells....town.

But i dont get the fixation with namedropping players you know. It ain't cool, and it ain't productive. Whoever did the italicising and underlining thing at least actually achieved something.

BM

[Zachrulez]

Zach, what the hell. Why does it matter what BM thought of alex in his second post of the game?

He votes Alex in iso post 11, one day later.

[Zachrulez]

And I am making note of it because his opinion changed rather quickly.

[Zachrulez]

Also,
@Zach, BM wasn't serious he stated later, iirc. Might be helpful to note there

Show me where and I'll take it into consideration.

[Zachrulez]

@Zach, could you give a top3 suspects?

At the moment among the non lurkers.

Battlemage
Gieff
Benmage

No paticular order. I would like to try to iso read them all, but that is a feat that is going to require reading 700-800 posts. I'm not sure how much that will change my read on any of them.

[Zachrulez]

Unvote Vote: Cephrir

I'm seeing clear support for a Cephrir lynch. Either lynch is fine with me, it was really an argument of preference.

[Zachrulez]

I have been perfectly clear about why I prefer a bcc lynch, and Battle Mage just saying "trust me, bcc is town, it's meta" won't cut it for me. If it's a 50/50 shot, and just one is scum, then his buddies will obviously try to steer us wrong. Yesterday I was pressured into voting Mastin over alex ("HE IS DIVERTING FROM A MASTIN LYNCH!"), and today I will NOT let myself be pressured into hammering Cephrir over bcc.

Cephrir is at L-2. Can those on the Cephrir wagon please explain why they prefer a Cephrir lynch to a bcc lynch?

I prefer lynching both to be honest, if they won't post that is.

What bothers me about Battlemage is the way he talked about lynching Cephrir and then talked of going after active players again the next day, without considering the possibility of lynching BCC, on a categorical town read, that he won't explain.

[Zachrulez]

Agreed. So why are you voting Cephrir?

More people support lynching Cephrir than BCC.

If this changes, I'll happily switch back.

[Zachrulez]

Plus it puts a lurker at lynch -2. I can't think of what more we can do to pressure them to post.

[Zachrulez]

Interesting, Zach you're rising on my scumlist.
I am actually starting to understand BM's accusions on you. Post 1455 is a nice example.

Uh... what?

[Zachrulez]

By the way, why is what Battlemage thinks so important to you?

In your vote of Cephrir, you stated that you voted him to make Battlemage happy.

[Zachrulez]

Ok guys.

I've pulled the wagons on both lynches.

Mastin (8): Debonair Danny DiPietro, VP Baltar, Kmd4390, Zachrulez, SpyreX, GIEFF, Benmage, camn

Cephrir (7): Debonair Danny DiPietro, Benmage, jammer, SpyreX, Zachrulez, camn, SensFan

Now I feel that at least one scum was on both wagons, and I feel much more strongly that the cephrir lynch is more likely to have multiple scum on the wagon.

But sticking with what we know. We know VP Baltar and Camn were town on the Mastin wagon, and we know that Camn was town on the Cephrir wagon.

DDD, Benmage, Spyrex and myself were on both wagons, For what that's worth.

This is what I'm looking at for a starting point today. My mouth actually hit the floor on how quickly Cephrir was lynched, but that moment has passed and there's nothing we can do now but move forward and try to make the best of it by analyzing the voting patterns of everyone involved.

[Zachrulez]

DDD was first on both wagons?

I guess I missed him casting the first Mastin vote.

Strange.

[Zachrulez]

Yes, I don't see how a lurker-lynch could possibly go wrong, guys. It's been an excellent strategy so far.

Mastin ALWAYS lurks after a while. Ceph ALWAYS lurks. Black seems to be strategically lurking. Mastin and Ceph weren't that scummy. Black is. Mastin and Ceph were town. Black probably isn't.

What exactly makes BCC's lurking strategic compared to how Cephrir's lack of posting yesterday seemed to be the same?

[Zachrulez]

Doing a bit of reading and I ran into this.

Great Job everyone... Nice quicklynch.

specially Camn and SensFan...

FoS: SensFan

Don't hide behind your scummy meta of hammering without reason.

Vote Battle Mage

It's him, bcc or maybe SensFan today.

Bye.

Bolded is gloating.

-------------------------------

GIEFF:

What do you think about your Camn+Alex theory now?

Newly-humbled GIEFF is going to take a backseat now to try to avoid way too many pages of text or steering the town in the wrong direction.

Good. That will be healthy for the game.

I do not consider myself the most threatening player in the game. I think the reason I was not killed is that so many people find me scummy.

And probably because your massive rain of posts pulled this game into a bloody confusion that helps scum.

Entire portion of this post is of a gloating nature. Bolded is spiking the ball after scoring a touchdown type of gloating.

Note that gloating is a scumtell...

I hate seeing this used by Alex to shame Gieff into playing the game less and not actively voicing suspicion, especially and particularly of Alexhans.

Liking Alex less.

I need to take another look Sensfan, DDD, and Spyrex, and KMD, and see what I think of them in light of what has happened in the last few days. I've got some reading and some more thinking to do.

[Zachrulez]

WTF? Gloating is a scumtell? I have the right to attack those who played poorly and allowed a town lurker to be quicklynched over a possbile scum lurker. I'm not shutting up GIEFF forever... I'm just saying he should moderate his extreme posting... That's not shaming or any other bull of the kind... I just hated how he paired me up with Camn (Camn could be scum for all I knew) and said we were buddying and that i was coaching her. He used that as an argument to try to lynch me over Mastin. It was a flawed argument, as we can see now.

Yes, gloating is a scumtell, and you were definitely doing it.

Camn not being scum does NOT eliminate the possibility that you are.

[Zachrulez]

That reminds me, I need to re-read Alex's reaction to the Mastin lynch.

[Zachrulez]

DDD's play has seemed off to me for quite some time now. I am used to him being active and certainly used to him being more opinionated.

He's been lurking for a week and a half now. (Since the 23rd of July, he's had a total of 2 posts here.) Yet he targets lurkers and has happened to end up on the lynching bandwagon of 2 lurkers.

Vote: Debonair Danny Dipeitro.

Your lurking is unacceptable. Post or Perish.

[Zachrulez]

Who's Dipeitro, Zachurlezl? XD

Bleh, I misspelled the name. Having a name that long should be against the rules.

[Zachrulez]

And gloating is a scumtell Alex.

I have found it to be a fairly reliable too.

[Zachrulez]

I just said that an Alex+Camn scumpair because I used a buddying language (coaching?) was stupid.

camn and Mastin flipping town does NOT mean you are town.

^ This.

Alex's defense of Mastin still bothers me. The gloating over the Cephrir lynch and Camn flipping town are not helping matters either.

[Zachrulez]

DDD has posted in other places but hasn't even posted to say hi...

Hi.

Hi.

Anything to say about my vote on you?

Anything to say about the game in general?

Anything at all?

[Zachrulez]

Zach, if you can reference your meta on DDD, that'd be fab.

I have referenced the game previously in this game. It's mini 761. Do you need a link to it again?

[Zachrulez]

Zach, if you can reference your meta on DDD, that'd be fab.

I have referenced the game previously in this game. It's mini 761. Do you need a link to it again?

well, i'm a little lazy and forgetful, but im sure i'll manage.
Are you with me on the Alex wagon?

BM

lol, your vote on DDD lasted 7 minutes.

Don't get me wrong, I am willing to vote Alex as well today, I'd just like to see if DDD is willing to post anything or not.

[Zachrulez]

Zach, GIEFF:

For God's sake. Don't repeat what I said as If I hadn't said it. I SAID Camn's death is a null tell for me. That's it. Doesn't make me town, doesn't make me scum. But that whole coaching concept was bullshit.

the end.

Ah, but gloating actually makes you far more likely to be scum.

Where exactly do I use Camn's death to implicate you? You were the one who chose to use it to gloat about how Gieff's logic on you and camn being scum together was wrong, and it's scummy.

[Zachrulez]

This fight has overloaded the ms boards and caused them to crash.

(I am having issues getting the board to load.)

[Zachrulez]

Ok, DDD is posting again.

Unvote:

At this point I'm considering a vote on either Sensfan (really not liking that hammer) or Alexhans (really not liking the gloating.)

Gonna need to see more before I can come to a decision I'm happy with though.

[Zachrulez]

No Alex, I'm quite serious.

[Zachrulez]

*sigh... I wish you weren't. Suit yourself then.

I had a look at your play in 761 and I couldn't find an instance of you gloating in that game like you've done here. (Granted I skimmed a bit.)

[Zachrulez]

Why exactly do you think I'm scum with DDD?

[Zachrulez]

The whole slapfight fake pressure vote comes to mind.

However, cart before the horse and all that.

My vote was intended to pressure him into posting.

I find his play suspect, but he's not my top suspect.

Eh... I can kinda see why you'd see things that way though.

At this point I'm pretty much willing to lynch Sens, Alex, or DDD.

[Zachrulez]

Oh, speaking of V/LA

I will be on vacation on August 10-14.

Will have access, but mafia won't be on my priority of things to do.

[Zachrulez]

Ok, DDD is posting again.

Unvote:

At this point I'm considering a vote on either Sensfan (really not liking that hammer) or Alexhans (really not liking the gloating.)

Gonna need to see more before I can come to a decision I'm happy with though.

is DDD posting a towntell?

BM

No, but it was what I was trying to accomplish with the vote.

[Zachrulez]

Both Ceph AND bcc picked up their prods, and neither posted. So you can't use this as a reason to prefer one to apples an apple is fruit.


So, I will ask again - why did you prefer lynching Cephrir to lynching bcc?


Danny, Benmage, jammer, and Zach - please feel free to answer this question, too.

Are you kidding? You know full well based on my posts yesterday that I preferred a lynch of BCC. A consensus seemed to be reached on Cephrir, and I had stated I was willing to switch my vote if that happened, and ended up changing my vote as a result. The lynch was then hammered shortly after wards giving no one a chance to reconsider their stance whatsoever.

This is why Sensfan's hammer bothers me.

[Zachrulez]

*shrug*

Unvote, Vote: DDD

If

i'm gonna lose this game

, i'm at least gonna lose it to somebody who was TRYING to play.

BM

Charter once told me on AIM that it's usually scum who post first person PoV statements about winning or losing the game. I'm not sure I like the tell, but it was accurate in a few games he referenced. Hmm.

One suspects that Charter might be wrong.
He's not exactly the Paragon of Mafia Hunters.

BM

I didn't think much about this originally, but re-reading the paticular comment KMD points out here, I believe it falls under the category of gloating.

[Zachrulez]

WTF? Gloating is a scumtell? I have the right to attack those who played poorly and allowed a town lurker to be quicklynched over a possbile scum lurker.

I guess i spoke too soon.

Unvote, Vote: Alex

I'm sick and tired of making excuses for his schoolboy errors and slips. If you KNEW Cephrir was town, tell me, why didnt you say anything? Yet another terrible scum-slip.

I want you dead, right this minute. Anyone who wants to try and restore a bit of fun back into the game, please join me.

--------------------------------
BCC hasn't posted since 19 July... however... he confirmed first night and then via kairyuu... what's up with that?

both times he confirmed was via Kairyuu. I'm not sure the Mod has actually heard from BCC himself, first or last.

GIEFF... it would be cool if you could divide the votepatterns by days... for the next one...

DIY?

BM

Re-reading. Raising a SERIOUS eyebrow to the bolded.

Why would you need to make excuses for Alex?

[Zachrulez]

because i've felt he was town for ages.

Really? Where have you stated this feeling? As far as what I recall in your 200+ post contribution in the game, you've been spending most of your time calling him scum.

[Zachrulez]

Vote: Alexhans

I think I should have listened to Gieff on day 1...