mini 819 - WWF Mafia: Over!

[Locke Lamora]

I miss the good old days of wrestling.

Random Clothesline: Kise

[Locke Lamora]

German Suplex: VP Baltar

for pointing out that I fail at tags.

[Locke Lamora]

Massive: if you didn't like the rules, why not opt out when asked to confirm? We were asked to review the rules in the confirmation PM.

[Locke Lamora]

Archon's 'I may not stay with this vote' reads as very wishy-washy and looks like he's being overly cautious, trying to cover his bases.

Unvote; Spinebuster: Archon

[Locke Lamora]

I apologise for not posting that much. Most of the time I have is during the day (I live in the UK) and I'm guessing that's different for everyone else, because there was a six and a half hour gap between my post and the next one yesterday.

I read some of Archon's meta and a lot of it is pretty strange. None of it makes me find him any less scummy here, though. I'm guessing Don's restriction is that he has to vote for whoever votes for him? It looks like he can vote for whoever he likes after someone else gets voted for.

---

The "this holdcount aint never getting read" holdcount

don_johnson (5) - xxFabianxx, hambargarz, VP Baltar, don_johnson, Kise

Archon (4) - Locke Lamora, Kreriov, Sotty7, DDD

massive (1) - Archon
VP Baltar (1) - massive
Sotty7 (1) - SpyreX

xxFabianxx (0) -
Debonair Danny DiPietro (0) -
Kreriov (0) -
SpyreX (0) -
Locke Lamora (0) -
Kise (0) -
hambargarz (0) -

Relaxing in the neutral corner:

None!

With 12 wrestlers in the ring, it takes 7 to throw someone out.

[Locke Lamora]

What is an animecharacter and why are you talking about it? Not sure if I'm missing something here.

[Locke Lamora]

That makes more sense now! I was confused when I couldn't find any mention of it on the wiki. I'm dubious as to whether these are actually softclaims or simply people using wrestling phrases in a wrestling theme.

[Locke Lamora]

If I can't make two posts in a row and nobody else posts for the majority of the time I'm online, I'm not going to be able to post a lot. That was my point.

Don has made repeated references to being a particular wrestler, which would indicate he certainly wants us to think that. Either that or it's part of his post restriction, but he hasn't done it in every single post.

[Locke Lamora]

Fabian: why aren't you 'feeling a lynch on massive'?

I don't think Steamboat was ever a heel either. If jobber is just the flavour name for vanilla townie, it's possible that Steamboat could be put down in that role. Having said that, Archon's vote on massive and subsequent reaction to being called on it is just as scummy for me. I really don't get all that nonsense about wanting massive to claim to satisfy his own curiosity.

Regarding DJ's restriction: when I read back, I thought his restriction was that he had to vote for whoever voted for him but after he had placed that vote and someone else had posted, he could then move his vote where he liked. I don't understand why he voted for Kise twice in a row now, though.

[Locke Lamora]

Hambargarz: what do you mean about your 'post for page 5'? Is it your policy to comment on each page individually?

[Locke Lamora]

If people don't buy my reasons for not being able to post, there's not a lot I can do about that. The large majority of the time I get to post is between 9 and 4 UK time. Baltar called me a lurker after nobody else posted for that entire period here the day before. It's not usually a problem on this site but in this game style I felt the need to explain it.

I still favour Archon for the lynch, nothing I've seen from him excuses his rolefishing and unwarranted caution about his vote. Fabian is also on my list, he has provided little reasoning for his thoughts, only backing up his vote on me when prompted and he still hasn't replied to why he doesn't like a massive lynch.

Massive: what's your reason for going from suspecting Spyrex for voting me to voting me yourself?

[Locke Lamora]

You're obviously not reading what I post. I know why you're looking at me. I wanted to know why you don't like a massive lynch. You said that but you never gave a reason for it, even after I asked you.

[Locke Lamora]

Fabian: I didn't think 'not feeling it' was actually an explanation. It doesn't really have a lot of logical merit. As you'd said nothing else about massive, it was hard to work out why you weren't 'feeling it'. Why are you willing to put Archon's earlier scummy comments down to a 'brainfart'? Simply because of his claim?

I believe the deadline is at 5:30 AM for me, so I definitely won't be checking in beforehand.

[Locke Lamora]

So you were worried about looking anti-town?

[Locke Lamora]

Kreriov's comment shouted that out, I agree. All I did was point out that I thought jobber was the flavour for vanilla townie and didn't have anything to do with Steamboat not being a jobber in real life.

What about some explaining from you, Spyrex? Why did you think Archon was 'genuine in his bizarreness'? Archon's vote on massive just looked incredibly scummy to me, yet you seemed to dismiss it very quickly.

[Locke Lamora]

Spyrex: because I don't like telling scum what my role is. I find it's better to phrase things like that in an ambiguous manner to avoid giving out clues.

Massive: I think I made it clear that I thought Archon was the scummiest player yesterday and pointed out that I thought that his rolefishing and excessive caution was very scummy behaviour.

I'm still suspicious of Fabian. In post 79 he joins in the criticism of Archon but he also tries to push people onto DJ. In 82 it seems like he's looking for reasons to excuse Archon's behaviour but not finding any. In 118 he states that the roleclaim sounds similar to his own role. In 124 he now believes Archon and puts his scummy behaviour down to a 'brainfart'. Seems like he was just waiting for a claim so he had a reason to excuse it.

DDT: Fabian

[Locke Lamora]

hambargarz: who do you think is likely to be scum on Archon's wagon? Do you find DDD less scummy now that you agree with his arguments on Kreriov?

[Locke Lamora]

Kreriov: I'm curious as to how you got your time for that vote completely wrong. I looked back through your posts and I can't see any that were made at the time you stated. Also, you were about a day out in estimating when you made that vote. How did you make that mistake?

[Locke Lamora]

I was also referring to your 9:38 time. What didn't make sense to me was that you seemed as though you'd checked the time and got the day wrong. Then I read back and realised you hadn't got the time right either. I don't understand why you were specific about it if you didn't even check the post.

[Locke Lamora]

Fabian: in 79, it read to me as though you were testing the waters on a DJ lynch. 'If we're voting people for being wishy washy, I'd think he's a much better candidate than Archon'. As regards you not backing up your partner if everyone else is voting for him, at this point in the game Archon and DJ had 4 and 3 votes respectively. We're not at a point where Archon is on the brink of getting lynched and you might as well bus him to avoid looking scummy yourself.

Massive: I recently played a game in which one of the scum said that their scum partner was the only player he hadn't found scummy, so saying that no scum would go on record saying their partner's fake claim is believable simply isn't true.

Will respond to Spyrex when I get another post.

[Locke Lamora]

OMGUS has nothing to do with it. I'm looking for people who were trying to avoid the Archon lynch and I don't like how easily you believed his claim. Which part is WIFOM, exactly?

Spyrex: I'm still not quite following. I know you were suspicious of myself and Kreriov for apparently screaming that we aren't jobbers but not dying. Are you saying that you now think Kreriov is pro-town for not knowing what a jobber is and so I'm more suspicious because I thought a jobber was a vanilla townie?

[Locke Lamora]

I accept that you could have had reason to believe his claim and you weren't the only one who did. You claiming that you wouldn't back up your partner at that point is WIFOM in itself, however. The fact is, four people were voting for Archon at the time of your post 124, not 'everyone'. DDD declares he clearly doesn't believe it and VP indicates he is leaning towards believing it. By no means is Archon heading for a sure-fire lynch; that's why I took issue with your defence of not backing up a partner who 'everyone' is voting for. There's no point speculating on whether you would state you believed a scumbuddy's roleclaim or not in that situation, I agree. I simply think your approach to the situation was the most like that of a scumbuddy.

[Locke Lamora]

Where did he say I was jumping on a wagon? If you mean in 259, I think he was just talking about DJ's tendency to jump on wagons.

[Locke Lamora]

When you placed your vote, of course Archon was going to get lynched. I'm talking about post 124, where you say you believe his claim. In 259 you claim that if you were scum and Archon's partner, you wouldn't back him up if everyone was voting for him. In 124 not everyone is voting for him and he's not definitely going to get lynched, so I don't see how your statement in 259 is a relevant response to my point against you.

[Locke Lamora]

My first point is that you acknowledge that Archon looks scummy, even saying that 'it isn't looking any better' after a reread. You go from that into believing his claim and putting his scumminess down to a brainfart simply because he claims jobber and that's something that sounds like your own role, despite acknowledging the possibility of fake RCs. I don't see the logical progression there.

You then called my point about post 124 stupid, implying that if you were scum you wouldn't back your partner up in a situation where everyone was voting for him. My second point is that you weren't in a situation where EVERYONE was voting for Archon and VP had actually hinted that he believed Archon's claim, so your own belief and justification of that belief was in no way a case of a single scum partner defending against hordes of anti-Archon voters.

[Locke Lamora]

Hammering almost 72 hours early and without a claim is beyond stupid, especially with week-long deadlines. DJ needs to go.

[Locke Lamora]

DJ: your quicklynch comment is just WIFOM. You've been doing OMGUS votes and throwing your vote all over the place the whole game. Hammering hambargarz doesn't make you pro-town. You're basically telling us that your bad, anti-town play makes you a babyface. You jumped off the Archon wagon as quickly as you got on too.

Fabian and DJ are my top scum choices. Fabian didn't even do any scumhunting yesterday because he was too busy calling my case OMGUS and saying he didn't understand me. I read some meta on him when he was mafia in Robot Chicken Mafia and calling other peoples' cases OMGUS was something that appeared on more than one occasion. Massclaim might be a good idea, I'm getting dubious about Kreriov's PR.

[Locke Lamora]

So what's your claim? A tracker or a watcher? Do you have any information from other nights?

[Locke Lamora]

You told us your result, which I think narrowed down the number of roles you could be quite considerably. If you weren't going to claim, I at least wanted to know what your other result was after you'd told us last night's. What were your reasons for selecting Kise and Sotty?

[Locke Lamora]

I would be in favour of mass claim too. I still think Fabian is the most likely scum; as regards his being V/LA, he hasn't posted in any topic since Day 3 started and didn't announce V/LA anywhere previous to that.

[Locke Lamora]

Not at all. His avoidance of the Archon lynch, aggressive reaction to my suspicion and total lack of scumhunting for some time now makes me think he's scum. I was just commenting on that because you asked if he was V/LA.

[Locke Lamora]

I'm Macho Man Randy Savage, babyface Jobber. If Kreriov is going last then massive is up next.

[Locke Lamora]

Kreriov has breadcrumbed Duggan but I agree with massive on this one: scum are just as likely to breadcrumb fake claims, if not more so. The fact that he was setting up these breadcrumbs so early makes me suspicious that he was more concerned with self-preservation than scumhunting. For those of you who don't know Hacksaw, in Kreriov's third post he uses the 2x4, a Hacksaw trademark, as is starting the USA chant in his fourth post.

I also don't buy his choice of targets. He barely mentioned Sotty and I don't think he mentioned Kise at all, yet apparently he chose to investigate them instead of people like DJ, who he found scummy from D1. Look at 281 as well: he says he's considering hambargarz and massive as possible scum for not being on Archon's wagon; but he doesn't go for the massive investigation after hambargarz flips town!

[Locke Lamora]

My points still stand. Your blocked targets don't make any sense given who you've found suspicious in the game. If your role is to prevent kills, I don't see why you've gone after people you never indicated were scummy in the game.

Vote: Kreriov

I assume you're suggesting that tag team partners both die if one of them is killed. And what do you mean by saying you've received one more response than you were hoping?

We have less than 48 hours to deadline now, people need to decide where their vote is going. After these claims I think Kreriov and Fabian are most likely scum.

[Locke Lamora]

Kreriov: you're not even reading everything. Arguably yes, you could have looked back at the Archon situation and decided Kise was the most suspicious, although I think that's pretty contentious in itself. However, I specifically brought up 281 in which you listed hambargarz and massive as your possible suspects. Hambargarz flips town yet your block goes to Sotty and not massive? I just don't see why you'd drop suspicion you'd had based on solid voting evidence in favour of a single comment from Sotty. I'm not upset that you're a blocker, I just think your claim clearly doesn't add up.

[Locke Lamora]

Thought that might happen. The devil smiley really sealed it for me.

Stone Cold Stunner: Kreriov

[Locke Lamora]

Ooooh yeah!

The avengers played out pretty well for me there. I was planning to try and get Fabian lynched until Kreriov claimed, at which point I knew he was lying because Sotty obviously did throw Spyrex out. DDD jumping on the wagon confirmed him as scum for me so I was going to go for the nightkill on him and then push either the massive or Fabian lynch tomorrow. As it turned out, the avenger fallout worked perfectly in my favour, so I'm glad for that slice of luck! Archon flipping scum on D1 was also pretty fortunate for us, I think I probably would have got lynched if that hadn't happened.

Thanks to Porkens for modding, loved the flavour and the BAM ruleset in general, would definitely like to play another one of these. Well played to everyone else, I really enjoyed the game and it's nice to record a scum win, even if it was a little fortunate!

[Locke Lamora]

DDD: your vote on Kreriov made me pretty sure you were scum, so I think we probably would have crosskilled each other that night even without the Avenger situation. As you say, it was a bit too late to change direction on the lynch at that point so I was hoping you weren't going to get me too.

I kept wondering whether people had worked out there were two scumteams. I suggested that we theme our kills in the style of the Undertaker (Chokeslam, Tombstone) so that someone might come to the conclusion that he was a serial killer. Nobody mentioned that in-thread, though, so I don't know if that affected anyone's thinking.

It's a shame both of the tag teams got broken on N1. I was interested to see what would happen between Kise and Sotty and it looks like VP and Ham would have been entertaining too if we hadn't killed VP N1.

Apologies to Fabian too for all the attacks! I thought I ought to be consistent so after I made the point against you on D1, I decided to keep running with it. I think VP and Spyrex would have been all over me by D3 if they'd been alive.

[Locke Lamora]

I thought the ruleset was great and the game kept moving at a good pace. In a similar vein to hambargarz, it was a little frustrating at times when I couldn't make another post for several hours because no-one else was online to post, but that was mainly at times when I remembered something I wanted to say just after I posted. A couple of times I had to cut down my post size to fit 150 but I thought that was a good thing, it stopped me rambling and made sure everything I said was concise and to the point. It's definitely the most enjoyable mafia game I've played so far and I'd like to be in for any you run in the future.