Open 156 - Friends and Enemies - Game Over before 816

[Kise]

Thanks for covering me. V/LA until Sunday instead of Monday.

Vote: Kise

[Kise]

Self-voting in RVS is anti-town because it denies the town some interactions to work from. Any attempt to reduce the amount of information you're giving in the early game is scummy, because only scum have a motive for it.

I actually did that to lay a trap. It was already announced that I was on V/LA, yet you're taking the RVS so serious, that it's almost funny to me. Notice how you were the only one to nitpick at my self-voting? You're also quite a shy person. 3 pages and only 2 posts from you =

The low-key FoS: ekiM

it's not about offering yourself to be lynched, it's about not worrying about it if you are the one lynched. This game requires a certain amount of us to die in order for us to find the scum, and as a game where nobody was killed during night 1 we only have what each other is saying to each other as a basis for who seems to be scum. I say we look to the person who is trying to make the game the most complicated without provocation. If they be town we have something to work with. If they be scum we still have something to work with. Basically I'm saying this game wont get interesting until we have blood.

If this wasn't a personal opinion, I'd give it the

IIOA FoS

. Pretty much all of your posts tell me that you don't wish to ruffle any feathers, which is no fun. I recommend that you interact with everyone (me first).

Have you still not seen anything fishy from the 3 pages so far? Is anyone even remotely close to looking suspicious to you? Update us on how you feel.

I don't know if it's personalities clashing or an attempt to hide a connection or what, but could we try to tone down the mean spirited comments a bit?

At this point, I am assuming we are going past the RVS stage, so I'm not going to keep a vote on someone simply because they are an asshole.

I think that's a no, ekiM.

[Kise]

I like anyone who is giving activity/life to this thread. Frankie & ekiM are staying way too low on the radar; nearly coasting after several passing days. The hippie-disposition you two display is not very attractive to attention, so, again, I get the feeling it could be shy-scum. I also get a sense of opportunism with both of you.

On that note, I think I should ask.. Frankie, what do you think about everything ekiM has said? ekiM, what do you think about everything Frankie has said?

Unvote; Vote: Santos

Have you forgotten about this game? I see you're still posting elsewhere, buddy..

[Kise]

As for Post 57
Not the self-vote trap thingy.
From my experience, it doesn''t work.
And it doesn''t make ekiM scummy.

Considering I regarded Frankie & ekiM as being in the same (scum) boat, it'll take some time before your viewpoint on ekiM's alignment is accepted.

[Kise]

What about Raivann, Toro and itacv2?

I'm familiar with Santos, which is why his name poked out to me. I wanted to know if he was paying attention to the game or not. I didn't bother looking at the player-list, which is why I didn't check the other 3 people you mentioned.

Rai & itacv2 are indeed minimal when it comes to productivity. Toro is not taking the liberal position. He has asked questions.

Quality > Quantity.

But getting back to Rai & itacv2... yeah, they're under the radar as well.

@Santos - Do you plan to stay up to date in thread and comment occasionally?

[Kise]

Toro is not taking the liberal position. He has asked questions.

In other words, I'm OK with Toro's posting so far.

[Kise]

Kise's Trap seemed like root-1. I mean, a self vote is null and gets as much conversation as a vote does in the RVS. I understand that much. What I don't understand is how someone attacking that (as it is a newer concept) is scummy or indicative of anti-town alignment.

Because ekiM [was the only one who] made a big deal out of my self-vote and tried to take the moral high ground against me.. He voted me because of what I did. Plus, the reason he gives does not click with me because it was already noted that I would be gone for a few days anyway, thus I would not be around to engage in convo & interaction, as he claimed I was going to deny him and the town

[Kise]

Self-voting in RVS is anti-town because it denies the town some interactions to work from. Any attempt to reduce the amount of information you're giving in the early game is scummy, because only scum have a motive for it.

[Kise]

@DDD - What makes Raivann scum, in your own words?

Then why did you ask for Frankie (me) and ekiM to give their opinion on the other?

I want you to tell me what you think about all of ekiM's posts. Not just how you feel about the "self-voting denies the town interactions to draw from" sentence.

@Kise

Who's the scum team now and why?

It's... still leaning towards you two. Are you going to scumhunt or play psychiatrist, boo?

Also, that's not what ekiM meant (The part of denying interactions)

Rephrase this for me, please. ekiM didn't mean what?

Do you have a problem with me pointing out scummy behavior? Why?

No. Do you have a problem with me pointing out a trivial viewpoint?

[Kise]

Santos, I promise you'll get some reasons, but I'd like to at least have a few more people react before I do so.

You want us to blindly vote, or.....??

[Kise]

Question to all - Did I deny the town the ability to use my interactions with others as a source for theoretical study?

[Kise]

{Placeholder}
Need to read pages 6+

[Kise]

Note the sig.

Zaz, can you do me a favor and tell zwet about this whenever he opens up the other thread? THX if you do.

[Kise]

Thanks for the replacement. I apologize for my disappearance. Unable to get online for the longest.

Sayonara!

[Kise]

Hi, again.

Vote: ZazieR

Outing the masons.

[Kise]

Zaz never survives this long unless she's mafia.

[Kise]

Scum usually NK a townie-Zazie because she's always nagging the shit out of them. She always catches something noteworthy, but here, and in the last game where she was mafia, she survived past N3. Lynch time.

That's what's called a typical example, BTW.

[Kise]

Mod: Can I link to the death scene (NK) of Zazie in an ongoing game?

[Kise]

The fook you on about, eKim? I wanted to link to show that Zazie never survives this long as a townie. At least I'm believing this is what muzzz wanted me to refer to.

Anywho, I'm carrying over my D1 suspicion since it seems to be ringing true even now.

[Kise]

That'd be Zazie & you, eKiM.

[Kise]

Well... guess who didn't read the whole thread?

I just iso'd her and didn't realize itac claimed before she announced itac & Toro were partners. In iso, it looks like she exposed them herself:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 61#1806261

Moving on, I still hold to my suspicions based on the interactions (and sometimes lack) of you two.

[Kise]

Well there was Large 96 where the rival scum group got her N1, then there was a recent game where she was also hit by rival scum, then there was Death Note mafia were she was killed N1 by anti-town, and last but not least there was Skywalker mafia, but she ended up being recruited instead of killed. There was an abandoned game (Open 150) where she was mafia but, obviously, she didn't die. The game stalled during the 2nd day but she was awol for the most part.. just like this game.

We've had other games together, (1 ongoing (both living ATM) and another where I was mafia and lynched her) but the moral of the story is that I never see her survive past N1 as town. I blame it on her reputation, which is most times healthy for town when she's town.

eKiM is making a big deal out of what should be viewed as meta, so he's only strengthening my view on the two of them being mafia. Besides that, I was on FrankiePeanuts {Zazie} & eKiM D1 so I naturally iso'd them both when I returned.

Limited Access for the next 2 days.

[Kise]

There is nothing wrong with iso-reading players you suspect. What there is a problem with is not reading the thread enough to even know how the mason-outing went down.

Alright... when I come back, I'll do more than give the thread a once-over. Just saying though, that based on how you two have referenced each other throughout the game (in iso), I get that feeling.

[Kise]

Sorry for lack of activity. I had too many essays to turn in this past week.

Now I see why the modding queue is so long for mini normals....

[Kise]

I promised to read over the whole thread so I can offer a real opinion. School happened to start around the time of my statement, so I'm pretty screwed.

I think I'll at least read how my replacement played so I can account for whatever he's said.

[Kise]

Thankfully, he already has a page-by-page review that I can follow at a decent length. Santos looks terrible here. Believing a cop is in an open set-up, evading questions, switching logic around inexplicably... Your only saving grace is meta. Everyone read you wrong in Skywalker, so.. I think you should become a D1 policy lynch, honestly (unless you & me happen to be partners of course).

Unvote; Vote: muzzz

I investigated him last night. Vote now, Santos.

In all serious, this vote is because you've done next to nothing this entire game.. NOOOOTHING, besides being a human-wikipedia and explaining Sho's mathematical jargon. Out of all those questions you've asked people to keep them busy, what have you concluded about everyone's alignment? Are you trying to have regular conversations, or is this scumhunting? If this is scumhunting, how has it paid off? You're virtually trying to figure out everyone's thoughts. If you could tell what you've learned from these questions, and how much relevance it has to this game and finding mafia... appreciated

[Kise]

Someone else answer that.... I can't pick myself off the floor

[Kise]

This game has been stalling for so long that people forgot it was an open set-up.

@muzzz - That's it, really? Thanks for proving my point. You've kept others busy but never went anywhere with the answers everyone else gave you. Raivann (and I believe another dead player) also did good to spot how you were coasting.

Yes, the case about Zazie outing the masons is dropped because I see that he said Toro was itac's partner

after

he already said this. Does that mean Zazie is cleared in my eyes? For no particular reason, no, Zazie is not cleared.

So, why you? Because you've only agreed with the cases of others and haven't been active in leading town with any cases -- only pointing out how you feel about what others have concluded. Am I certain that you're the only player who does this? Nearly. Santos obviously is being himself. DDD is just above you as far as actively pursuing a case. Sho is not frequently pursuing cases, but he did great to follow up on his suspicions of itac & raivann. eKiM might have noticed how Sho is falling back, ala Post 524. Zazie & eKiM have made legit, substantial posts. I do agree to that. I rank them as the top 2 as far as productivity (fuck irony), but my experience with Zazie tells me that he's equally as active as both town & mafia (which goes back to my stance that Zazie never lives long when he's town because the mafia, if familiar with him, always get rid of him as early as possible). I can tell eKiM's post are heartfelt. Nothing contrived, no lies.. his opinions come across as very natural.

I currently suspect you [muzzz] for not instigating relevant responses from others and other bits here & there where you don't have game-relevant discussion (i.e. trying to find scum), and DDD for also ranking low on productive discussion (I'm still hung up on you expecting us to have blind faith and vote for Raivann earlier in the game). I wouldn't mind putting Santos in that pool. If he's scum, then his meta is to thank for him slipping by my suspicion.

[Kise]

Yes, a complete 180 it would seem. That's what happens when I take the time to read over what I missed. It happens. Get over it.

[Kise]

Being on all lynches is not always a tell. In fact, it is more common for scum to distance themselves from the 1st mislynch.

muzzz, I'm not ignoring anything. I've went through every page and filtered the fluff (like yours). After 2.5 months & 25 pages, I'm sold on my 2 suspects (3 if you count Santos). Where do you go after me, muzzz? Who else have you looked at, or are you waiting for someone else to open up a case?

[Kise]

I liked Sho's earlier cases against itac & Raivann, despite them being town. Without consider their alignment, I read Sho's opinions and it read as if he genuinely believed he was onto the mafia's trail. He hasn't done much by way of "leading" since then, but he hasn't done/said anything I see as scummy.

I don't prefer to place my vote on him.

[Kise]

@Sho-voters - Could you reference the posts he's made that you feel are scummy? I'll give it a look, but at the moment I'm comfortable with not lynching Sho.

[Kise]

I think some of us would rather rely on abilities, so we'd have more to discuss. Right now, we've had 2 phases of discussion, and I guess after a while the players get tired of having so little to talk about.

Make me a cop, Ald.

[Kise]

LMFAO

[Kise]

@Santos - I really AM a cop this time. You can trust me if I get to make an investigation tomorrow.

[Kise]

Darn it! And I had somebody to clear as townie.

[Kise]

Congrats.

[Kise]

So to any degree, was I correct in thinking self-voting is a trap?