Newbie 816 - Game over!

[ElectricBadger]

What do you guys consider to be good scum tells to look for? and -

Vote Adel

For pure OMG-ness. Good to be in a game with ya again!

[ElectricBadger]

Unvote Adel, Vote Steve

- why would you vote already to skip the use of town's one and only weapon?

[ElectricBadger]

The only thing that changes between now and tomorrow is a dead townie, tho.

[ElectricBadger]

What he said. If we spend our time investigating and truly can't find anyone scummy, then No Lynch is an option; but to just end the day on the first votes loses town a big chance at finding scum, even if that chance doesn't really become clear until the 3rd or 4th day.

[ElectricBadger]

first day votes are random?

Yes, but voting yourself doesn't really put any pressure anywhere to bring out scum.

[ElectricBadger]

Unvote Steve, Vote Lailai

- because trying to bandwagon a quick no lynch after all the explanation of why not to is way scummier than voting it in the first place.

[ElectricBadger]

glasses are for losers

Rude.

[ElectricBadger]

Moderator: Vote Count please?

You may now vote my eyepatch, saltiness or endorsement of illegal activity at your whim Also, some avatars are so good they need no color.

[ElectricBadger]

Are we worried that the votes won't change until the 11th?

[ElectricBadger]

Unvote Lailai, Vote Adel.

I see what your play is, but a nice time to shift out of RVS, I think. How did you feel about me at L-2, Adel?

[ElectricBadger]

The reason I voted for you, is because other people are voting for you and whoever voted the same person as me voted someone else instead

Too confusing for me....

I think you mean, you switched just to join a bandwagon?

Do you feel it's useful to create bandwagons without a reason for them?

[ElectricBadger]

Unvote Lailai, Vote Adel.

I see what your play is, but a nice time to shift out of RVS, I think. How did you feel about me at L-2, Adel?

I wasn't worried about it.

And what sort of a tell were you looking for? 'Cause blithe unconcern seems like as much of one as you were likely to get.

[ElectricBadger]

Unvote Adel, Vote Pancakes

Either not reading through the thread, not bothering to give a counter opinion, or not caring about it.

what is the vote count now? a automatic system works better. i guess this will be my only game on this site.

The vote switching slows down a lot later in the game, so not that much of a concern. And while I understand you're used to different play, maybe make an effort to enjoy the differences? Or, at least, the midst of a newbie game isn't really the best place to grumble about every shortcoming of the site.

[ElectricBadger]

Unvote

That built up way too fast not to have scum on it.

[ElectricBadger]

FOS Cirdua. The rush to a new bandwagon up to L-1 implies scum are jumping on it, and that implies they don't like the existing bandwagon.

Also FOS on Fitz for putting the wagon 1 vote from a lynch.

Finally, if one of Cirdua or Pancakes are mafia, it's unlikely the other is; hard to see both those wagons being all townies.

[ElectricBadger]

most probable scum on a pancakes-town wagon.

What're your thoughts on trfrench as the second L-1?

unvote, vote:havingfitz

[ElectricBadger]

Right now, because he put pancakes BACK at L-1, I'm going to

Vote: TF

(that is, Tfrench, abbreviated).

However, since Dramonic was 3rd on the first wagon, I am going to have to put my

FoS: Dramonic

/agree with tfrench. The 2nd L-1 for a very meh reason after my unvote and comment feels to me like a goon piling on a bandwagon hoping to carry through a failing quick lynch - possibly reading his scumbuddy's vote as a signal to act? That, or a townie who was paying no attention to things, which is almost worth lynching on principle anyways.

Dramonic doesn't read particularly scummy to me. I think it's fairly clear he tried to vote 2nd (making Cird the 3rd) (though also agree with the mod not counting the vote), and either way I don't see it as scummy. I'm familiar with the '3rd vote=bandwagon forming=scum tell' theory, but I disagree with it. I like the 3rd spot personally, because it transforms a couple random votes into significant pressure to make a person respond, but doesn't push so far as to be a real danger. It's also always very interesting to see who pushes it further. Not saying I clear dramonic, I just don't read any tells into his vote.

Agree with Adel's associations as playing the odds, but links are pretty weak in this phase still, so not going to bank on that too much.

A couple good scummy suspects, and tf is the more suspicious by a small margin. Lets nudge this up a notch and see where it goes.

Unvote Fitz, Vote tfrench.

[ElectricBadger]

i stick to my vote, a no lynch is a free pass for scum

But is it worth lynching over on its own? Note that we've had three people vote No Lynch already this game, so clearly at least one town is voting that way too.

[ElectricBadger]

That would be rather shocking with only 2 mafia in the game.

[ElectricBadger]

Why are you so concerned about defending TF?

Because I can see HF being scum with more people than I can see TF being scum with. I think that both are scummy, but HF is more likely to be scum.

Am I correct in understanding that the difference you see as decisive is that Fitz has connections to more people than French?

Does this seem useful or indicative when even if we're right at this stage, only one connection actually exists? Why would more imply scum?

[ElectricBadger]

EB - What are your thoughts on Adel tunneling me and throwing false accusations at me right after I replace in and post some logic?

Already posted, and awaiting Adel's response.

Also, I generally dislike when someone under pressure spams questions of all and sundry; reads like desperation/flailing/avoiding a line of questioning, without having anything real to focus on one or two other players.

[ElectricBadger]

His reason on the forums.

He quit two other games as well, so assuming his action has anything to do with this game is, imo, a stretch.

[ElectricBadger]

As this is the first Mafia game I have ever been in there is a lot to try and figure out...like why voting for someone I think may be Mafia is reason to to cast suspicion on me. I voted on pancakes because in my inexperienced opinion he/she was suspicious. The fact I was putting pancakes 1 vote from lynching made me suspicious but the others who had voted for pancakes are not? What does casting the deciding vote do...confirm suspicions? Very confusing for a newbie.

And it is amazing (as in filled with disbelief) to me that people are trying to pair me with others as being scum...or deduce that I am scum on the basis of three or four posts. Is trying to build negative opinion towards someone despite very little supporting evidence a scum tell?

If the worst thing I have done (prior to what I would not be suprised to be informed are several scummy tells in this post) is to place a vote on someone I thought was a bit scummy...and be the 4 person to place the same vote...then I'm going to be on eggshells this entire game.

I'll keep my vote where it is for the time being but I am starting to think some of the more vocal participants may be a bit shady.

I think you're pretty much getting it, actually. Game is about ferreting out the smallest hints - at this point, the only things that differentiate us - and extrapolating from there, adding in any bits of new evidence as they occur. What those tells are - bringing someone near to a lynch on weak evidence, accusing too much, accusing too little, or whatever else - are really up to the individual.

As for the L-1 position, I think it should be clear that there's a difference between putting some suspicion on players for fairly weak tells and killing them off for the same.

[ElectricBadger]

I was 1st, 2nd and 3rd respectively on each wagon, so only one was even barely definable as a 'wagon' when I joined; claiming I'm rushing to wagons is unfounded and untrue. But your misrepresentation of events to cast suspicion is duly noted.

Nor did I ever claim bandwagons are a scum tell. Using votes for pressure, and later to lynch, is the town's only weapon. But 4 votes in 5 posts (and that only because dramonic didn't post his vote right the first time) is obviously extreme and demonstrates some players were eager to join a wagon without any particular effort to investigate or reason on their own - which strikes me as a scummy wagon.

So, as the underlying pattern you've based your question on doesn't exist and couldn't have inspired the comment, what was your purpose?

[ElectricBadger]

I believe that was exactly the sort of thing I asked you - what your purpose was. Questions are a means, and yes, important, but useless on their own, without the pressure of votes to enforce response and carry out findings.

You again cite my 'voting pattern'. The fact that people have followed my votes? What exact behavior of mine does that indicate? How would I control the votes of several other players except by their agreement with my statements and logic, and if that is faulty, why are you not addressing it instead?

You are forcing a pattern where there is none, even after a polite correction (lest it be an honest mistake), and using it to query other players in the hopes they'll form baseless suspicion. You are not drawing conclusions from evidence but instead looking for any excuse to cast suspicion where none is due.

That is scum behavior.

Unvote tfrench, vote Manzcar

[ElectricBadger]

If you were to find me just arrogant, who would you see as scum? If you find me scum (since Adel seemed to have wanted it this way) who would you think might be my partner?

After arguing that we shouldn't be looking for such a thing, I find this an interesting question. Asking it seems to invalidate your previous assertions. Did you have some other purpose in posting it?

Ok, sorry for the sarcasm. It's not helping me at all, nor is it helping us as a town. I'll try and calm down. It's just that I tried to post my opinion on the game and Adel attacked me for it.

This is to be expected, I think, when making broad and controversial statements. Surely you expected some response? I don't agree with Adel's opinions entirely either, but it was unsurprising that someone stepped up to confront you. I'm personally unsure whether that was your intent.

im, the problem is not your experience, it's just the way you're coming across in your posts. I'm starting to find you genuinely scummy

Agreed. The barrage of instructions of how to play are taking on a leading tone which I dislike, and which would provide a good cover for mafia. Of deeper concern to me, though, is that while he's talked a lot there's almost no attempt to scum hunt spread through it; just opinion and arguing with Adel until he launched a set of flailing questions, none of which were particularly insightful.

I cannot really defend pancakes actions as they didn't really post much apart from no lynch and have come to the conclusion that they must have been new and realised that this wasn't for them, so instead of defending their vote they decided just to leave.

Reasonable, and my read as well. I don't think No Lynches are a scum tell in the RVS of newbie games; it's just when they persist in them for no reason that I find it scummy. IMO, you're beginning on a pretty blank slate.

As for experience, I've played a couple games elsewhere and I'm running one on another site, which is very casual, and this is my 3rd game here.

[ElectricBadger]

You'll note that I specified that I was only doing this because popular opinion was for it, and I figured they would do it anyway, so I might as well get their thoughts on the matter. I still don't think that it helps town. Although neither does their tunneling me.

I'm understanding that you're doing something you believe is anti-town because others are pressuring you: is that interpretation correct?

Just for the record, we've been going on like this for numerous pages, but no one has actually countered my opinion

Ignoring any potential evidence or lead is unproductive, and thus anti-town. All evidence must be considered in proper perspective, however, and with correct logic, which sounds like the specific problem your previous game had. At a guess, the scum in that game ensured that happened; which is why it's important for all townies to consider everything critically.

I haven't had much of a chance to scum hunt recently because:
1) V/LA (previous and upcoming)
2) Adel, zwet and princess continuing to tunnel me
3) Real life stuff

Judging by the overall quantity of your posting, I disagree. You are merely sidetracked; the question is whether it's intentional or not.

I agree with Badger.

Regarding what?

[ElectricBadger]

I'm growing more inclined towards IKD as well, but I want to hear from TF's replacement before moving ahead with anything.

[ElectricBadger]

I mean if the case pops up, I think his reputting at l-1 was scummy as hell.

Are you willing to lynch him based on that alone, or do you have other reasons? Do you see any reason a townie would have done that?

[ElectricBadger]

Why would you lynch someone you think is innocent?

Scum are likely to pile on to a mislynch, increasing the size of the bandwagon even though they're not scum. Simply picking whatever lynch is easiest helps mafia, not town.

[ElectricBadger]

I don't really like the sound of that,this means you will either be easily manipulated by scum to vote someone or you're scum and this is an attempt to have some arguments to protect you in case you lynch a townie...

Agreed; increasingly suspicious of dramonic. Very bloodthirsty, explicitly willing to lynch anyone (nice pre-emptive excuse for helping a mislynch), lack of any scum hunting and a penchant for one line responses that fill a posting quota without contributing anything. FOS.

Uhm, where you sleeping when we had this whole discussion about why lynching a townie is better than a NL? I also believe a bandwagon was formed because of it, or was that just my imagination?

Sarcasm ftw. Lynching a neutral is better than refusing to lynch, yes; but would you facilitate a lynch against someone you felt was Innocent? Wouldn't you consider it better to keep pushing for a lynch that you felt had a good chance of being scum?

If townies will push for any lynch at all then a mislynch tells us nothing, because town would be acting just like mafia. I'd rather have 6 town and no info than 5 town and no info. And besides, a failed bandwagon tells us much more than a No Lynch wagon, so this is hardly the same situation.

[ElectricBadger]

Well, I don't think me being manipulated is an issue, unless 2 votes suddenly pop up on someone real quick, in which case we'll know we found scum XS

So flawed I'm not even sure where to begin.

[ElectricBadger]

Dismissing any chance of mafia interference is ridiculous, and the fact you knew you were misleading people only makes it worse. Pushing a quick lynch for a deadline that's still days out makes you no less scummy. You've done everything you could to encourage and excuse a mislynch, particularly distressing in the face of your lack of investigation into who may be a valid target and easy assumption of guilt.

Unvote Manz, Vote Dramonic

[ElectricBadger]

but would you facilitate a lynch against someone you felt was Innocent? Wouldn't you consider it better to keep pushing for a lynch that you felt had a good chance of being scum?

That depends, if I were scum I'd push an innocent lynch. But when I'm town I rather lynch scum. If there is no particulary scummy player, I would rather lynch a townie then lynching noone. Then if we lose we can atleast say to ourselves "Oh well, atleast I tried"

I believe we're talking about two different things here. You're talking about compromising and voting someone that doesn't strike you as the scummiest suspect; which I do feel is valid. I'm talking about lynching someone you specifically think is innocent, or that you have no worthwhile suspicions of, simply for the sake of killing someone, per dramonic's statement:

I prefer lynching someone seemingly innocent over not lynching

Also, why do you feel the need to respond for dramonic, rather than letting me force him to make posts longer than the 2 line snippets he's gotten away with so far?

[ElectricBadger]

I would assume that even if they were replaced today, the new players probably wouldn't be caught up before the deadline; which is why I gave up waiting for TF's replacement.

[ElectricBadger]

Why so rushed, Zwet? Still 4 days left.

PP - Don't misinterpret me. Mislynches are to be avoided, so you should have good logic and your own reasoning behind your vote - and not just vote for anyone! - but they do happen. I generally ask myself "If this is a townie, and we lynch them, can I justify why I voted?"

However, this isn't a game about knowing for sure. If townies are too paralyzed by fear of a mislynch to act, mafia WILL win.

[ElectricBadger]

EB:

I'm understanding that you're doing something you believe is anti-town because others are pressuring you: is that interpretation correct?

Well, if that's how everyone is going to be expected to scum hunt, my opinion on the ethics of the method seems a bit null. I'll be voted now for asking that question (which you will note hasn't been answered in lieu of asking why I asked it), but realize that I would have been voted also for holding onto my opinion of not looking for scum buds, as current popular belief is against it.

Not really. I disagreed with your stance, but felt you had enough reasoning that YOU believed it.

Judging by the overall quantity of your posting, I disagree. You are merely sidetracked; the question is whether it's intentional or not.

Unintentional. I have lost interest in this particular game given the whole theory argument between myself and Adel.

Tempted to kill you off just because of this. Again - YOU started off your play with broad and controversial statements on game theory; YOU are who started the debate - complaining because someone didn't blithely accept your logic is silly.

Dramonic:

baaaaaacktracking on his own opinion and doing stuff he himself deems anti-town.

Parroting and jumping on the wagon, I see? Anything else you want to say? I find your short posts that merely parrot others' opinions (which you've consistently done throughout the game) without providing your own thoughts to be a bit scummy.

Agreed.

Anyway, like I said, it

was fun

wasn't that fun playing with all of you. I hope that my play during this game doesn't tarnish our ability to play civilly in future games together. As I realize my lynch is pretty much inevitable, this will probably be my last post in this game unless I feel like entertaining your questions a bit more. Cheers!

Well, the current pouting aside, I think I'd happily play with ya again. Also, if you are town, one huge step you could take is to use your vote to try to steer a lynch towards someone you think is mafia. It's really hard to complain people aren't voting for better suspects when you aren't, either.

--

ATM, I think most of the issues with IKD center on his style/personal issues - being arrogant/sarcastic/pouting. I don't like his theories or his willingness to compromise just to stay alive, but I'm not sure I can specify most of the points against him as SCUM tells. I don't think he's a bad lynch, especially in the face of his complete lack of scum hunting, but I don't think he's the best either.

Dramonic's pre-emptive excuses for mislynches, hawkishness combined with lack of posting and scumhunting, and other comments are much more pro-mafia. I think he's a much better lynch today, but managing to skate under many radars because of his short posts and lack of content.

Zwet, did you switch because you prefer IKD or just to ensure a lynch?

[ElectricBadger]

Me too; and I won't tell you how to vote at all, but with crazy's vote and mine, switching back to dramonic would switch the lynch.

[ElectricBadger]

Oh, and to answer you Mazcar, I think lynching my wagon will nab the scum.

Anyone in particular, and for any reason other than OMGUS?

[ElectricBadger]

Is it just me, or is that an unusual rule? I don't think I've seen it before.

Well, it fits with the "flavor" of Mafia. If you're swinging from a noose, why should you get to talk!?!?!

Anyway, on to the death scene!

[ElectricBadger]

ElectricBadger, according to the rule stated above you are allowed one last "bah!" post, you could tell us where you want to be burried !

*Makes deathly gurgling noises* perhaps a nice spot overlooking the sea? also, I'd like a casket made of pure gold, because you CAN take it with you. *more gurgles*

Been a pleasure playing with y'all, catch you in another game!