Open 156 - Friends and Enemies - Game Over before 816

[ZazieR]

Oi~
It''s good to see some known faces again
Especially two of my previous lovers XD

Will read shortly and post some analysis.

[ZazieR]

Done reading. Now going to look at some posts in general that caught my attention, but first:

NO MORE MATHS POSTS!!!
Make one or respond to one, I don''t care. I have my images and I will use them on anyone who writes a post that involves maths after this post

[ZazieR]

First comment would be for Post 29
I''d like to see an elaboration.

[ZazieR]

Regarding Post 35
Is this scummy to you or not?
The ad hom is noted.

[ZazieR]

Next, Post 51
Don''t like the question asked here and the same one from Post 45. It''s a very big stretch.

[ZazieR]

Exalt

, do you think Sho is scummy or not?
Because at some moments I have the impression you do. But at other moments, I don''t get this impression.

[ZazieR]

As for Post 57
Not the self-vote trap thingy.
From my experience, it doesn''t work.
And it doesn''t make ekiM scummy.

[ZazieR]

Frankie

Zazie, what do you think about everything ekiM has said?

Looks for scum, but he isn''t pushing anything hard yet. But there hasn''t been much information yet, so I''m neutral, leaning townie towards him.

[ZazieR]

Welcome, Zazie. Please condense your thoughts into single posts, don't make multiple posts in a row, one for each thought. I find that style of posting incredibly hard to follow.

If you are expecting me to change the way I post, stop dreaming. I''ve already explained why I''m posting this way. So don''t count on me changing this.

[ZazieR]

Here

[ZazieR]

Blame Hohum for that *glare at Hohum*

[ZazieR]

As for Post 57
Not the self-vote trap thingy.
From my experience, it doesn''t work.
And it doesn''t make ekiM scummy.

Considering I regarded Frankie & ekiM as being in the same (scum) boat, it'll take some time before your viewpoint on ekiM's alignment is accepted.

Then why did you ask for Frankie (me) and ekiM to give their opinion on the other?

[ZazieR]

@Kise

You thought that ekiM and Frankie (me) were scum together, because we were both flying under the radar, according to you.
Who's the scum team now and why?

[ZazieR]

Post 84
Exalt, regarding the first bit about Sho, ekiM had a good comment about it. Can you comment on this quote?:

I find people playing with an affected persona obnoxious, but Sho obviously intended to post this way before he got his role PM so I don't see how it can possibly be scummy. I certainly won't support any sort of policy lynch based upon it.

Regarding Post 35
Is this scummy to you or not?
The ad hom is noted.

I'm not sure this question was toward me or not. Please say my name first because it is an open ended question. I guess I will explain it though either way. DDD was acting like a complete ass in his arrogance toward other players, and I told him to stop in so many words. I UNVOTED him because he was stacking up I think 3 or 4 votes at the time, and I wasn't about to keep my random vote on him simply because he was being so abrasive and arrogant. I guess some of you think it is scummy for me to remove my vote (Raivann), but I don't view it as such, and frankly I don't care what you think. I won't structure my vote habits around the opinions of players like Raivann simply to make myself look more "town" in his eyes. I unvoted because I don't see DDD as scum at the moment.

Perhaps I wasn't clear, but I was asking if DDD's response was scummy or not. See post 35 to see about which response from DDD I'm talking about as you comment on it in this post.

Exalt

, do you think Sho is scummy or not?
Because at some moments I have the impression you do. But at other moments, I don''t get this impression.

I'm very wishy washy on him at the moment. Sometimes I think it is just his play style that is just inherently scummy, while other times I get the feeling that he is doing it with more sinister goals in mind. I really don't know yet, but since I have opinions on both sides of the fence my vote stays for now. Simply put, your impressions of me are correct so far.

You're saying that Sho might have more sinister goals in mind with this playstyle. So can you explain how this playstyle would help Sho-scum?
And about which vote are you talking? You haven't voted anyone after you unvoted DDD.

[ZazieR]

@Sho

I said no more maths DIE!!!

Next, Post 51
Don''t like the question asked here and the same one from Post 45. It''s a very big stretch.

Why?

As stated by muzz, Frankie wasn't looking for scum. He was more focused on theory. So muzz asked him why he wasn't concentrating on scummy looking players. Yes, Frankie did talk about DDD, but only to say that his reactions were understandable. In other words, he was giving his opinion on a player who got attacked who he didn't see as scummy.
S when Muzz asked him why he wasn't looking for scummy players, Toro made this into a different argument against Muzz. Something muzz didn't say/ask.

[ZazieR]

My question to the rest of town about Sho: If it becomes impossible to distinguish between scummy or play style at any point in the game in regards to Sho, then what are we supposed to do with him? Ignoring possible scum because of his "play style" is a mistake just as much as policy lynching someone because of their "play style".

That is, if it does. His poststyle is annoying, but it isn't scummy. Those are two different things. But I'm not the one who may say a poststyle is annoying, as there are some players who say the same about mine.
Besides, there are lots of things to analyse in posts when we have more information. From those, you can see if something is scummy or not. Not from his playstyle.

Since you all attacked me, I want to know what everyone thinks the best solution between that is. Do we lynch a player who is scummy all the time since we cannot figure out what is genuine, or do we ignore a player that could be possible scum all game simply because of his play style? It is a lose-lose situation in both aspects might I add. Now town, tell me what you think.

Or you analyse his posts later on and if you think he acts scummy you show a case? If he acts scummy then, there might be players willing to lynch him.

Can you also re-explain why this isn't a policy lynch to you?

[ZazieR]

What would u like me to explain, i have just been reading and havent got any other reason to change vote whatsoever. I still think that using the whole jerk tone and saying it while evading to other topics could mean that indeed DDD is in fact scum. While the scope was on him, briefly, DDD was dodgy and managed to change the target from him. And why should i change my vote and bandwagon when there is little or close to none information or loose lead.

I want you to quote where he has used this 'jerk tone' and how it makes him scum.
Also, why did you decide to post now?

Vote Count #4

Hectopascal (3) - Factor of Hectopascal, Factor of Hectopascal, Factor of Hectopascal

Exalt (2) - Debonair Danny DiPietro, Raivann
Santos (2) - Sho Minamimoto, Kise
Debonair Danny DiPietro (2) - Toro, itacv2
Toro (1) - ZazieR
Sho Minamimoto (1) - muzzz
Kise (1) - ekiM

[ZazieR]

@Raivann: Please answer my question to you on why your single and only post in the entire game is to say that I was trying too hard when I removed my vote. Since it was your only post of the game and since you voted me without explaining it, I'm asking that you do. How was I trying too hard, and in what way did it look scummy enough to deserve a vote.

No hard evidence, just a hunch.
My explanation was trying too hard, should have said to appear townie.
You also seem overly worried about my vote on you.

Can you give more details why you think that Exalt was trying to hard to appear as townie?

[ZazieR]

Kise's Trap seemed like root-1. I mean, a self vote is null and gets as much conversation as a vote does in the RVS. I understand that much. What I don't understand is how someone attacking that (as it is a newer concept) is scummy or indicative of anti-town alignment.

Because ekiM [was the only one who] made a big deal out of my self-vote and tried to take the moral high ground against me.. He voted me because of what I did. Plus, the reason he gives does not click with me because it was already noted that I would be gone for a few days anyway, thus I would not be around to engage in convo & interaction, as he claimed I was going to deny him and the town

Self-votes are anti-town. And the traps that players claim them to be, haven't worked in my experiences of finished games. I'm waiting on my games with Mastin to finish to confirm this.
Also, that's not what ekiM meant (The part of denying interactions)

[ZazieR]

@Zazie: did you know you were going to discuss traps when you posted the Satoko picture?

---

Re. traps - the key to a good trap is knowing how to differentiate between town falling for it and scum falling for it. And I don't think that's a trivial task when it comes to self-voting-as-trap.

No, I wasn''t >.< I just like the image
I also use one of Rika, but I''ve used that one much more. So this time I started with Satoko ^.^
Self-voting as a trap doesn''t work. It starts discussion, but outside the game with Mastin, I''ve seen it four times. One is ongoing, two were a discussion between two town players with scum using it to lynch and in the fourth game, it was barely noticed.

So

Kise

, why is this ekiM-scum commenting and not ekiM-town according to you?

[ZazieR]

Anyways, Raivann is scum. We should all vote for him.

Unvote; Vote: Raivann

No. This is follow the sheep and especially in this set-up is this scummy. State your reasons for suggesting this, DDD.

[ZazieR]

Unvote?

Vote: Raivann

I want to know moar.

State your reason how according to you this will help.

[ZazieR]

Anyways, Raivann is scum. We should all vote for her.

So sorry, townie here and I'm a dude, Danny

Why did you already claim?

[ZazieR]

Then why did you ask for Frankie (me) and ekiM to give their opinion on the other?

I want you to tell me what you think about all of ekiM's posts. Not just how you feel about the "self-voting denies the town interactions to draw from" sentence.

I already did? Look here. Will you now answer my question?

@Kise

Who's the scum team now and why?

It's... still leaning towards you two. Are you going to scumhunt or play psychiatrist, boo?

Stop calling me that I''ve checked what it means now!
Anyway, I''m scumhunting.

Also, that's not what ekiM meant (The part of denying interactions)

Rephrase this for me, please. ekiM didn't mean what?

He said that your Random Vote denies the town some interaction. You thought wrongly about what he meant with it. I''m surprised he didn''t point this out.

Vote Count #5

Going After Someone For Self Voting In The RVS:

Raivann (3) - Debonair Danny DiPietro, Santos, Sho Minamimoto
Exalt (1) - Raivann
Santos (1) - Kise
Debonair Danny DiPietro (2) - Toro, itacv2
Toro (1) - ZazieR
Sho Minamimoto (1) - muzzz
Kise (1) - ekiM

[ZazieR]

Question to all - Did I deny the town the ability to use my interactions with others as a source for theoretical study?

Theoretical study? I know you mean your self-vote, but why call it like this?
I don''t think you did.

[ZazieR]

In return, I will progress to hear your reasoning on this.

Unvote; vote raivann

State your reason how according to you this will help.

[ZazieR]

State your reason how according to you this will help.

My reason, according to me, is that it will help me know more.

What information do you expect it will give?

[ZazieR]

Do you think he claimed cop? Ok...

[ZazieR]

Reasons for voting Raivann:

1) Meta - I was working on a pet project of mine and compiling data from a recently completed Newbie game Raivann was involved in. In the first five pages he had nearly thirty posts and accounted for almost thirty percent of all game posts, he was a vanilla townie. So far in this game he has a total of six posts over a similar time span. And it's not as if this was an ineffective strategy, town won the game and Raivann was NKed N3. So why such a substantial change in style unless there's a change in role?

2) Vote on Exalt - It's a terrible vote and he jumps on someone else's bad logic to place it. It's a good vote for scum because Exalt has foot in mouth disease which means it's easy to sustain with an adequate chance of securing a mislynch.

3) Response to my vote - There are certain behaviors that might've persuaded me that he's town, I didn't see any of them. His asking if I was "certain" didn't help his case either in my eyes.

Weak case.
Meta argument isn't valid. Reason 3 wasn't present yet when voted. Leaving only #2. Yet, he made already one post after ekiM complained about Raivann's vote. He had no comment. In his next post, he votes.
So three questions:
-When did you check his meta?
-Why did you check his meta?
-Why didn't you comment on Raivann's vote earlier?

I'm also interested in hearing why you voted without giving your reasons and asking others to vote with you.

[ZazieR]

Raivann's two finished newbie games:
Newbie 744
Newbie 789

He has one other finished game as far as I know, but you can't find any posts from him there as you were only allowed to have one post which you had to edit to post and got deleted if killed.

Vote Count #6

Raivann (3) - Debonair Danny DiPietro, Santos, Sho Minamimoto
Debonair Danny DiPietro (3) - Toro, itacv2, Raivann
itacv2 (1) - ekiM
Santos (1) - Kise
Toro (1) - ZazieR
Sho Minamimoto (1) - muzzz

[ZazieR]

Raivann

Will you answer now?:

@Raivann: Please answer my question to you on why your single and only post in the entire game is to say that I was trying too hard when I removed my vote. Since it was your only post of the game and since you voted me without explaining it, I'm asking that you do. How was I trying too hard, and in what way did it look scummy enough to deserve a vote.

No hard evidence, just a hunch.
My explanation was trying too hard, should have said to appear townie.
You also seem overly worried about my vote on you.

Can you give more details why you think that Exalt was trying to hard to appear as townie?

Anyways, Raivann is scum. We should all vote for her.

So sorry, townie here and I'm a dude, Danny

Why did you already claim?

[ZazieR]

haha, I'm in way too many mafias :p

I rescind my reason(s)

Opinion of DDD's explanation?

[ZazieR]

I wouldn't say Exalt has foot-in-mouth disease, but his temper-flares do make him a cheap target.

@Raivann: linkies to completed games, please.

I've completed 2 newbie games, I don't know how to put in links though

unvote,Vote: Debonair Danny DiPietro

I originally didn't mind his vote on me. We could see voting patterns and such.

Now he's trying to get me lynched because he sees me as an easy target.

I'm thinking scumteam is DDD/Toro.

Did he say the bolded? If so, where? If not, why do you think this?
And why DDD/Toro?

[ZazieR]

Inactiveness is a way used by scums to lay low, but i think Toro has not shown a true scum face thats why i will not think bad about him, yet.

As for Raivann, HE IS AN EASY TARGET as was put before.
@Raivann- there is no way you can prove the case against you wrong, the only chance u stand is to detecting a threat bigger than you in order to avoid being lynched.

@DDD- since it was you who also broght to attention the change of playstyle in this guy what else you suggest could be a proper approach to this situation. Because even when i still think you might be scum, you are making a point there.

@everyone else- I still think That DDD has a chance to be a big shot scum, lol, but he makes a point. I think we might want to test the case.
Why? If Raivann is lynched and he is town we might be short of one people but a nontalkative one, since he is counterproductive is not a big deal and might then watch the patterns of behavior , the bandwagoners and reactions to the lynch.

Aside from this i dont think i can make at this time make a clearer case than the ones being held

Unvote Vote itacv2

(Did I spell it correct )
First of all, thinking that Raivann is town, yet still wanting to lynch him. If that isn't scummy, then voting for the reasons he give, should be. Because the same would go for an itacv2-lynch (Except maybe for the part of counterproductive, as I have no idea what he means with that)
Other than that, asking a player he thinks is scum for advice. 'Coaching' Raivann. Asking others if we should lynch Raivann, while he's not suspicious of him, but being suspicious of DDD.

[ZazieR]

Opinion of DDD's explanation?

I like it.

Now with reasons?

[ZazieR]

Santos isn't pulling his weight. He says that he's in way too many games, but I count just two others where he's active (plus one he just died in). What gives?

Also this, Santos^^

[ZazieR]

I just want to get movement, since this is going nowhere. Also you may think i want Raivann lynched when i dont. If you are paying attention i never retired the vote on DDD since i think at this moment he is SCUM and noone has proven otherwise or that we should consider any another player to check.

Are you saying that you want somebody lynched to get this game moving in your first sentence?
No, you didn't remove your vote. But you did ask if we shouldn't test the case. That sounds to me like you are asking if we shouldn't lynch Raivann. By doing this, you also are soft-pushing. And the last bit of not considering another player to check, that is false. Because you stated that DDD has a point against Raivann. So you do agree with what he's saying.

Also when i say counterproductive means that while we have a change that we may find useful information doing it, the chances are low compared with what has been called mislynches.

I still don't get it

Also, If i said that Raivann could be mafia but if he was not, was ok anyways, you misunderstood it. What i meant was that given the evidence presented this could mean one of two things, either Raivann is Scum or DDD is looking extensively to change the crosshairs in his head. Or maybe both.

Stop using difficult terms >.<
State if you think Raivann will flip town or scum.

Change in playstayle is known as a kill me strategy for newbs, and a change like the one shown when a overly active player changes to idontwannaspeakalot guy, most of the time this happen because the player dont know how to impersonate the character that was assigned, meaning that he is either scum or important role character.

If you have checked the links I have given, you'll see that Raivann has been scum before. And a change in activity between different games doesn't mean a thing.
Also, I don't like what you just pointed out.

[ZazieR]

What are your reasons for thinking that DDD is scum?

[ZazieR]

Weak case.
Meta argument isn't valid. Reason 3 wasn't present yet when voted. Leaving only #2. Yet, he made already one post after ekiM complained about Raivann's vote. He had no comment. In his next post, he votes.
So three questions:
-When did you check his meta?
-Why did you check his meta?
-Why didn't you comment on Raivann's vote earlier?

I'm also interested in hearing why you voted without giving your reasons and asking others to vote with you.

Meta is perfectly valid, Zaz. Now, we're not dealing with a large sample size here so it could be mere coincidence but so far the trend suggests more postings = town, less postings = scum. Furthermore, you question my third point and ask why I'd vote without giving reasons? Reactions, specifically Raviann's to verify or run counter to my opinion.

When? Would've been Monday of this week.
Why? I was compiling data for a project I'm doing relating to newbie games. Raivann's name came up as a statistical outlier in my data at which time I realized I was playing with him in this game and his behavior was quite different.
Why no comment? Between Raivann's vote on Exalt and my vote of him I posted once which was a joke "hi" to you. So essentially I did comment on Raivann's vote with my next serious post.

Meta is most of the time a valid argument, but in this case it isn''t. First of all, your sample is one. It would have meant that I was scum in my second game, which I wasn''t. One example doesn''t say much about it in the whole.
Secondly, it''s based upon activity. And activity has multiple factors that have an influence. Difference in allignment can be one, but isn''t the only one.

And you didn''t answer my third question. You only admitted that you first posted a random comment and after some time, a comment about the vote. Why didn''t you comment on the vote at the same time as the random comment?

[ZazieR]

@Zazie-
My vote on Exalt didn't really have any hard evidence just a feeling.

I didn't mean to claim anything except not scum.But I am Vanilla Townie

Did he say the bolded? If so, where? If not, why do you think this?
And why DDD/Toro?

No, because I wanted to OMGUS vote him.
And Toro just from a process of elimination.

Are you asking a bunch of questions to keep heat off you?

Feelings are caused by something in the posts of said player. Can you state what or at least which post(s)?
But you claimed. And my question was why you already claimed. Which is what you have avoided to answer. So please answer.

The OMGUS vote is noted. Not liking it one bit. Especially as you didn''t address his points, except for the meta point.
Can you also elaborate how the process of elimination regarding Toro went?


And no, I''m asking questions to get more information out of the players to see who is scummy. You are reaching here.
It''s also noted that you asked as you''ve played with me before.

[ZazieR]

@everyone else- I still think That DDD has a chance to be a big shot scum, lol, but he makes a point. I think we might want to test the case.
Why? If Raivann is lynched and he is town we might be short of one people but a nontalkative one, since he is counterproductive is not a big deal and might then watch the patterns of behavior , the bandwagoners and reactions to the lynch.

I wouldn't say counterproductive. I'm just having a little virus problem on home computer.
Instead of lynching me to see DDD's alignment, let's just lynch DDD.

Do you support a DDD lynch? If so, why?

[ZazieR]

Unvote

I thought there was a cop in this game. Now I'm just not liking the use of meta DDD used to prove Raivann simply on a chance of 50/50, as it appears the meta is exemplary of a null-tell, IMO.

Is that so?

Opinion of DDD's explanation?

I like it. It had logic and substantial evidence.

Why the change in your stance?

[ZazieR]

First, why are you not quoting me in chronological order? Are you trying to set something up on me?

I didn't put it in chronical order, because I was responding to your newest post.
So no, I'm not setting you up. The reaching is noted.
But your answer is?

[ZazieR]

Meta is most of the time a valid argument, but in this case it isn''t. First of all, your sample is one. It would have meant that I was scum in my second game, which I wasn''t. One example doesn''t say much about it in the whole.
Secondly, it''s based upon activity. And activity has multiple factors that have an influence. Difference in allignment can be one, but isn''t the only one.

Actually it takes into account both his completed games. As scum Raivann had ~40 posts in a 20 page game, as town Raivann had ~115 posts in the same time span. And while I agree that this analysis isn't the end all, be all, it's as credible as anything that's been presented this game.

Question regarding the meta argument. How come you didn't look for other games in which Raivann played to see if your meta argument was the case in other games?

[ZazieR]

Raivann

Two questions:
-Who is your top suspect and why?
-If you had to compare the way you play here with one of your newbie games, which playstyle would be more similar with the one you use here and why?

[ZazieR]

ZazieR:

You tend to post a LOT of questions to a LOT of different players, which is good and fine, except that it kind of draws away from focusing on any one person to scum hunt, and it also makes it harder to find things to ask you. You post almost exclusively questions instead of content on other people's answers in a lot of ways. I'm kind of wondering what the deal is with this. It does look like you are trying VERY hard to scum hunt (or look that way), but I'm not sure what you are receiving out of it.

Care to give a top 2 scumdar analysis? You ask questions of everyone, so I would just like to know if you are getting any answers to help you find scum or if you are just asking questions to look like you are town.

I ask questions when I want to know somebody stance, like those when I first joined the game, or to see why somebody is behaving like this, which is what I'm doing now. When I don't respond to an answer, then it means that I'm satisfied with it.
At this moment, I have four suspects: itacv2, Raivann, Santos and DDD in that order.
I barely ask itacv2 questions as I have already explained why he's suspicious. Raivann and Santos are avoiding to answer. If they had answered their questions before, I could have shown why I'm suspicious of them.
In other words, I'm asking questions to look for scum.

[ZazieR]

ZazieR: Maybe to help clarify the reasoning for the question further... you seem to be all over the place with EVERYONE, and so I would really like to know if this is helping you at all with a suspect list and if you have been able to narrow anything down. At some point, you will need to make a singular case on someone and take a stance.

I have made a case. See itacv2.
Outside him, I'm asking three other players questions. 1/3 of the game, which is not everybody. And with the questions I have asked, I'm narrowing down my suspect list.

[ZazieR]

And the questions of post 177 and 179 got ignored.

[ZazieR]

@Itacv2

First of all, you said that Raivann is an easy target according to you. Why?
There is one other thing why I didn''t like you soft-pushing Raivann. But please answer the questions in this post first.

[ZazieR]

FrankiePeanuts was criticized for making more analysis than suspicions and not wanting to ruffle feathers, then Zazie replaces him and goes overboard with questions and says 'noted' alot. Not much but it's more than I have on DDD

unvote, Vote: Zazie

P.S. I know I've been moving my vote around alot. I'm not doing it to be anti town or anything, just voting who I'm most suspicious of at the moment.

First of all, you weren''t one of the players who criticized Frankie''s play. So I''d like to hear why you do point it out now.
Secondly, when I say noted, it means that I remember it as I find it scummy.
Third, you have nothing against DDD. You said yourself it was OMGUS.
Fourth, the last paragraph. Without being attacked, you are already commenting on why you are doing it. This reminds me of the early claim. Seems you don''t want to get attention.

And last, you once again didn''t answer my questions of posts 177 and 179

[ZazieR]

itacv2's latest post cements my vote for him. I'd like everyone to comment on posts 145 and 160.

Also this. Why did everybody ignore this request?

[ZazieR]

Why the change in your stance?

Because it had meta-fail in it and I no longer find it plausible to follow considering I was a dumb ass and wasn't paying attention that there is no cop in this game. Now I just feel sheepish.

So you agreed with a case, on which you didn''t even check if the points were valid? In other words, you were following. Noted.

Secondly, when I say noted, it means that I remember it as I find it scummy.

So its 'noted' that I questioned how you are quoting me out of chronological order = scummy when you didn't explain what you were doing in the first place? Have you quoted anyone else out of chronological order? It just threw me off as incredibly suspicious because it seemed like you were trying to set up some sort of elaborate attack on me no matter what my response would be to your questions. That is why I was getting defensive about it.

So, ZazieR, is my question about that ^ still 'noted/scummy' now that we've cleared the water?

My answer: Check our ongoing game in which you have flipped. That''s one of the reasons. The other is the reaching. You''re trying to make me look scummy, when I''m questioning your motives behind your opinion.
So yes, it''s still noted.

[ZazieR]

ongoing + you flipped = Mini 790 (Skywalker)

Vote Count #9

"Okay guys, to make flavor more interesting, you'll all be stereotypically British from now on!" said Alduskkel.

"Um... pip pip cheerio?" said itacv2.

"Tinklety tonk!" said ekiM.

"That's not British, that's just silly," said Kise.

"Okay... where's the tea?" said ekiM.

"I don't think that's British ekiM, I think that's a Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy reference," said Exalt.

"Wasn't Arthur Dent British though?"

"Damned if I know."

itacv2 (3) - ekiM, ZazieR, Sho Minamimoto
Debonair Danny DiPietro (2) - Toro, itacv2
Santos (1) - Kise
Raivann (1) - Debonair Danny DiPietro
Sho Minamimoto (1) - muzzz
ZazieR (1) - Raivann

[ZazieR]

Where am I on the fence?

[ZazieR]

And the questions of post 177 and 179 got ignored.

Raivann

, are you interested in answering?

[ZazieR]

on second thought I'm with Toro, I wanna lynch DDD

unvote, Vote:Debonair Danny Dipietro

FrankiePeanuts was criticized for making more analysis than suspicions and not wanting to ruffle feathers, then Zazie replaces him and goes overboard with questions and says 'noted' alot. Not much but it's more than I have on DDD

unvote, Vote: Zazie

P.S. I know I've been moving my vote around alot. I'm not doing it to be anti town or anything, just voting who I'm most suspicious of at the moment.

Explain the change in stance.

[ZazieR]

Finally >.<
I should count how many times I repeated that...

[ZazieR]

Raivann

What was your reason for finding itacv2''s posts scummy?

[ZazieR]

Also,

Raivann

, what''s your opinion of Toro''s case against DDD and how come you didn''t respond to it before?

[ZazieR]

Note the sig.

Zaz, can you do me a favor and tell zwet about this whenever he opens up the other thread? THX if you do.

Sure, though you can just PM him.

[ZazieR]

Where am I on the fence?

Santos, you accuse Zazie of fence-sitting. She has made a case and placed a real vote. You have not.

Mostly with all your notes about some players. I should read back though and see why itacv2 is her choice for today. I don't recall anything particularly scummy about him, plus I've been a bit lazy over the weekend. Mainly, I was just bugged by her 'notes' but I guess I was just being grossly trite about all her questions; they really stick out and I'm probably tunneling, which normally happens for me, so I'm trying to back off singling someone out and look at the whole playing field. It just seems odd that she'd bother doing her 'notes' still when she's already picked her prize for today.

itacv2 is my main suspicion. That doesn''t mean that I''ll leave the other suspicions I have off the hook.
And this is not fence sitting.

[ZazieR]

Santos

Can you give me a town game of yours in which a lot of questioning happened by one player and you thought he/she was scummy?

[ZazieR]

Futhermore, when i said that i saw that Raivann could be mafia, even when i based some of the conjectures that falsely misled me, since i didnt verified the information which was shown to me later, I thought DDD was the bigshot and was trying to get the attention off him.

First of all, you assumed that the meta DDD presented was correct. You didn''t check for yourself. If that''s not bad enough, you pointed out that Raivann is either scum or a powerrole. So you were willing to lynch a possible powerrole on a case you didn''t even check. And that when you thought the attacker was scum.
Not even that, but you thought that DDD wanted to get the attention off of him. Which is what you did by asking if we shouldn''t test the case against Raivann.

When i said that i wanted to lynch somebody to get the game moving, i didnt meant that i would like to end the day as fast as possible because that could meant an early town lynch, but rather than a bit mre congruent information or more incisive questions in order to reveal more of the people around. After reading every post again i found that i mistakingly said that there was almost no information to base conjectures when there was plenty, but i dont know how to use.

This is something I also don''t like as you want to get the game moving, even thought of possible ways to do so, but not doing them. So far, you''ve mainly defended yourself of the attacks against you. You''ve done barely scumhunting. Yet, you complain about wanting the game to get moving.

I think that the probabilities that Raivann turn town are higher than Zazier turning town.

Two questions:
-Why do you name me and Raivann?
-Why do you say this, instead of: ''I think Zazie is more likely to flip scum than Raivann''?


Also, who do you suspect?

[ZazieR]

Why the change in your stance?

Because it had meta-fail in it and I no longer find it plausible to follow considering I was a dumb ass and wasn't paying attention that there is no cop in this game. Now I just feel sheepish.

So you agreed with a case, on which you didn''t even check if the points were valid?

Where, now?

Uhm, not sure what you are asking, but I hope this answers it. If not, could you rephrase it?

My answer: I asked Santos what he thought of DDD''s case. He said he liked it as it had logic. But now, he doesn''t buy it.

[ZazieR]

I feel more then confident that my arguments are strong enough for us to go ahead and lynch DDD. What makes you say that DDD is town muzzz?

Doesn''t mean that your arguments are better than those against other players.
And where did Muzz say that he thinks DDD is town?

[ZazieR]

I''m asking for a game in which you were town in which you attacked a player who asked lots of questions.

[ZazieR]

Because in this game you didn''t question BSG about all her questions, while you were town.

[ZazieR]

I''ll look over my scum games tomorrow, but I can think of two games already where I''m town in which I asked lots of questions.
As for why, ''ctrl + f'' is your best friend And I say noted a lot.

As for my scum list, I have already said my top 4 suspicions.

[ZazieR]

Feelings are caused by something in the posts of said player. Can you state what or at least which post(s)?
But you claimed. And my question was why you already claimed. Which is what you have avoided to answer. So please answer.

The OMGUS vote is noted. Not liking it one bit. Especially as you didn''t address his points, except for the meta point.
Can you also elaborate how the process of elimination regarding Toro went?

I didn't mean to claim. All I said was that I was townie.

Toro I was wrong about.He's all about lynching DDD

I am thinking scum is trying to setup icatv2 for mislynch. And I'm thinking scum might be lurking.

Still doesn''t say why you did claim. Still didn''t explain the thought process behind the process of elimination.
And if you think that scum is either lurking or setting up a mislynch on itacv2, then why did you vote DDD/ And why did you vote itacv2 then if you think it''s a mislynch?

[ZazieR]

and I'll pretend you're

i

.

Fixed it for you. Lololol.

@Frankie: you seem to have more theories than suspicions. Why would you want to go after someone who makes stuff complicated, instead of someone else? Say, someone scummy?

Here you go, ZazieR.

Muzzz responded. You have yet to address it.

[ZazieR]

Seriously I think there's alot of townie vs townie arguements going on and scum are loving it.

Elaboration please. Because the only discussions that don''t include me or DDD are Muzzz-Toro and Exalt-Sho.

Vote Count #11

Yup, Arthur Dent is British.

itacv2 (4) - ekiM, ZazieR, Sho Minamimoto, Debonair Danny DiPietro
Debonair Danny DiPietro (3) - Toro, itacv2, Raivann
Santos (1) - Kise
Toro (1) - muzzz

[ZazieR]

@Zazie- I get the feeling that your more interested in pinning people down than trying to help the town, It feels like the Spanish Inquisition.

How do you know my old sig ?

[ZazieR]

Kise hasn't made a real post in a week.

Still waiting on Exalt's case.

Kise has stated to be V/LA

[ZazieR]

Heh, you showing me anything of your meta isn't going to help my opinion of you here. Until you strike gold in an accusation you stick by in finding a scum, then my Mafia instinct is telling me not to trust your null-tell questions, notes and 'ctrl + f's!!! :p

Now that''s funny. Because you didn''t question BSG in the game I linked to, because you had only played one game with her according to you. Aka, no meta. But when it''s possible that my meta shows that it''s something I do more as town, meta''s not valid anymore. Explain.

[ZazieR]

Zazie, I know why I messed up in biting to get an answer out of DDD, but where, again, are your questions towards DDD and his ballsy move to go straight for Raivann?

Do you mean these?

[ZazieR]

Also, I am not much of a meta user.

So the reason that you didn''t question BSG was because?

However, I now feel it appropriate to say that itacv2 is being bullied into a lynch.

If you disagree, then why aren''t you trying to start a wagon on the player you want lynched?

And I want this explained, as I see no reason why you should have pointed this out:

If your meta proves 100% scum finding every game, then I will believe you in this game are doing a superb job of scum hunting.

Besides, I may not be right in each game, that doesn''t mean that I''m wrong in every game.

[ZazieR]

Out of Raivann or itacv2, which of their play today would be more indicative of scum - minus Sho/Exalt/Kise lack of doing any scumhunting today?

itacv2. Soft-pushing for a lynch on a player who you think is a powerrole is way too scummy.

And as said, Kise is V/LA.
I fail to see how my playstyle is a null-tell.

[ZazieR]

I wasn't fully adept to having a unique scum hunting skill to use in every game I play.

Rephrase?

I'm for Kise, however, when you posted I was stating my case and then posted after you posted.

But you just said it was to pressure him. So what is it?

Also, as a side note to you, your conversations with DDD kind of tapered off into nothing about his advocation to lynch Raivann earlier. Do you think DDD is clean of his use of meta against Raivann?

Not at all. As said, DDD is in my list of scummy players.

[ZazieR]

2) I wasn't using meta when I first joined here at all.

Can you give an estimation from which game you started using meta?

4) what are you still trying to attain from bringing up such an old game; and one game for that matter?

As said, it''s an example of a game in which you were town in which you didn''t question a player about using lots of questions. You couldn''t give me a game in which you were town and did question such player. 1 > 0

Regarding Kise: If your vote was for pressure, then this question is still unanswered:

If you disagree, then why aren''t you trying to start a wagon on the player you want lynched?

Also, if it''s a pressure vote, then why call it a pressure vote?

regarding DDD, why do you think he has been so 'chill' with you this game? He's hardly suspicious of you which screams to me that he has the fullest confidence in your play style (while I don't have the fullest confidence in your play style to think you're always town)

Should he have a reason then to not be ''chill'' with me? If he has them, then it''s a question that needs to be answered. But not by me. Even one of the two main attackers against me sees it as a null tell.
However, he isn''t the only one who is ''chill'' to me. So why point him out?

[ZazieR]

@Toro: Frankie wasn't talking about DDD. Hence, I wasn't talking about DDD. This is the third time we're going over this. You're starting to get on my nerves.

Then who were you referring to?

Why are you so fixated on DDD? And why do you want

my

statement to be about DDD so badly?

Why you dodging the question?

Why are you ignoring the questions?

[ZazieR]

Mod

- Santos is voting Kise.

And with that said, Exalt, what''s your reason for not voting somebody?

[ZazieR]

Raivann

Respond to this when you return.

[ZazieR]

Too many people missing which means the same people are arguing the same thing in the same circles.

yup pretty much.

The one who you suspect is actually here. Seems a weak excuse to not have to do a thing.

[ZazieR]

The aggression was there, but I'm backing it off because its a null-tell, IMO.

Why is it unbelievable? It happened. You don't believe it happened or what?

It is an aggression I have never found in mafia games. Don't get me wrong, I like it. I just can't believe a player actually plays with such ferocity. It's zetta awesome.

You've never seen aggression in mafia before? Didn't you tell me in the beginning of the game that you meta gamed me and saw m play style? I am usually completely aggressive at all times... how is this so surprising to you that someone else is doing it? You said it would cause conflict between us, and now you are saying it is really awesome. This seems like a scummy statement to me now that I think about it.

You say that my aggression from previous games is going to cause problems between me and you, but now that someone else does it in THIS game, you agree with it and say it is awesome. HMMMMMM.

Your aggression seemed misguided. Swedish...irish...? Something mafia... it was some European place mafia game which recently finished.

Scottish Mafia

[ZazieR]

Too many people missing which means the same people are arguing the same thing in the same circles.

yup pretty much.

The one who you suspect is actually here. Seems a weak excuse to not have to do a thing.

Yeah but DDD said, it's not going anywhere.

ahh...going to take a look back through the thread...

Unvote

Wait. Are you unvoting somebody you think is scum?

[ZazieR]

Mod

- Santos hid the vote in a big part of text here

[ZazieR]

Responding to a question that was made.

Im not soft pushing someone witha power role since there are no power roles.

Being able to talk at night is not power. Just additional ability. To my perception to be power role u need to be a cop or doctor or something like that.

That aside i dont think he is a mason either.

So no, when i said i thought of him as likely to be power role, i was directly implying that he was scum and nothing else.

That being answered.

In other words, you were trying to coach somebody of whom you thought he was scum. You didn''t want to look into somebody else you thought was scum. And you didn''t want somebody dead of whom you thought he was scum. That makes a lot of sense

@ Zazier: even when i believe DDD might be scum, im beginning to feel more inclined to think you are scum, since i thought in the beginning your predecesor was. I will like to question your desperately way to react to every comment made on the thread with an exquisite selection of arguments and none of them heve seem to lead anywhere close to a nice suspicion. I believe you are Scum, and you are hiddinng behind a leader character which i have seen can usually be one of the scums, and often do this in order to take the bullseye from their head.

First of all, you''re saying that you thought Frankie was scum. Yet, you didn''t point this out, while reading along. And when you stated that scum use inactiveness to lay low, you only mentioned Toro. Yes, this was after I replaced into this game. But if he truely thought Frankie''s behaviour was scummy, I''d expect him to mention him as well.
Secondly, I''m always acting like this. As scum and as town.
However, you''re using once again a generalisation. You''ve seen scum as leader types. You think that scum use inactiveness to lay low. Which means you can call at least half of the player list scummy. As there are only 2 scum, it shows that generalisations don''t show who the scum are.
It''s also funny to see that when you mentioned the inactivity argument, you state why you don''t think this is the case with Toro. Now with the leader argument, you don''t state why I''m leader scum, instead of leader town. Why is that?

[ZazieR]

@itacv2

First of all, you state that I've changed your answers and use that to attack you. If this is true, point out where and how.
Secondly, this quote:

Ive tried to explain many times,

U dont seem to understand

, and

just zigzag from what i say and use it to say something else.

The two bolded parts don't go together. Either it's the first, in which it isn't scummy as I don't know what you are saying. Or it's the second, which makes the first untrue as I'd do it on purpose.

As for this:

but i think that you jumping accusations from player to player, strongly accusing each one of them, pushing for info and using that answers to say something else.

Right now, I'm focusing on three players and ask sometimes a question to a different player. You are my main focus. So how have I been jumping accusations?
This also responds to your second point as it's not true.
Pushing for info isn't scummy. If it is, explain why.
And you have yet to show that I have done the fourth point as I disagree with that statement.

[ZazieR]

Also,

itacv2

, can you respond to Post 320?

[ZazieR]

Feelings are caused by something in the posts of said player. Can you state what or at least which post(s)?
But you claimed. And my question was why you already claimed. Which is what you have avoided to answer. So please answer.

The OMGUS vote is noted. Not liking it one bit. Especially as you didn''t address his points, except for the meta point.
Can you also elaborate how the process of elimination regarding Toro went?

I didn't mean to claim. All I said was that I was townie.

Toro I was wrong about.He's all about lynching DDD

I am thinking scum is trying to setup icatv2 for mislynch. And I'm thinking scum might be lurking.

Still doesn''t say why you did claim. Still didn''t explain the thought process behind the process of elimination.
And if you think that scum is either lurking or setting up a mislynch on itacv2, then why did you vote DDD? And why did you vote itacv2 then if you think it''s a mislynch?

I still would like to have these explanations why you claimed and how the PoE went,

Raivann

[ZazieR]

@Toro: Frankie wasn't talking about DDD. Hence, I wasn't talking about DDD. This is the third time we're going over this. You're starting to get on my nerves.

Then who were you referring to?

Why are you so fixated on DDD? And why do you want

my

statement to be about DDD so badly?

Why you dodging the question?

Why are you ignoring the questions?

This^^,

Toro

[ZazieR]

Raivann

, what do you think of Toro's unvote?

[ZazieR]

@Itacv2

The two parts that I bolded in post 337 don't go together for the following reasons:
You think I'm scummy. If the first is true, I can't help myself, which means that I don't do it on purpose, which the latter is. So it shouldn't be scummy. This also shows why it don't go together if the latter is true.

In Post 244, you comment on my comment of leader-scum. You misunderstood.
You said before that the 'leader' can both be town or scum. You think I'm scum, so in your opinion I'm leader-scum and not leader-town. You have yet to give the reasons why my play as 'leader' makes more sense for leader-scum than for leader-town.

I also asked for you to show where I've twisted your answers and how. Was that your answer or not?

[ZazieR]

@Exalt

Lurking is anti-town not scummy.

As for my main suspicion (Itacv2) with reasons, you can find those when you do your analysis. Shouldn't be too hard to find.

[ZazieR]

And I've already responded to those accusations. You never addressed them.

[ZazieR]

Will be leaving shortly. But I want

Santos

to explain his change of behaviour in Mini 790 and here.

[ZazieR]

What is my change of behavior?

Your reaction towards me.
Now explain.

As for 790, Zazie, why are you using a broken game to analyze my behavior here?

Even if it was broken, it doesn't mean that it had an influence on your behaviour. You acted like that due to your thoughts and your role.

Also, why didn't you give your thoughts about the claim?

[ZazieR]

I don't get you

Unvote; Vote: Exalt

Till we get the promised analysis.

I'll accept that.

Against ekiM, you present meta. Against DDD, you 'accept' his vote.
Why the difference?

[ZazieR]

Itacv2

, claim your partner for obv reasons.

Unvote Vote Raivann

[ZazieR]

If you and your partner claim, and one of you were to be NK'd, the other person is considered a cleared townie 100%. If you both don't claim, then you will end up being lynched, and then your partner would never be able to clear himself.

Not entirely true.

[ZazieR]

If you and your partner claim, and one of you were to be NK'd, the other person is considered a cleared townie 100%. If you both don't claim, then you will end up being lynched, and then your partner would never be able to clear himself.

Not entirely true.

I believe it would be smarter for the two masons to claim rather than hide and let one of their fellow masons possibly get lynched as a fake claim. I do believe in that.

You said he should claim as well... so I'm wondering why you disagree?

Don't want to comment until itacv2 has claimed. But he's not the lynch for today.

[ZazieR]

Oh, and I almost forgot. Deadline is August 13th.

[ZazieR]

Santos

Which games did you take to form a meta on me?

Vote Count #16

Snape is the sled!!!

Exalt (3) - Sho Minamimoto, Debonair Danny DiPietro, ekiM
ZazieR (2) - itacv2, Raivann
Toro (1) - muzzz
Santos (1) - Toro
Raivann (1) - ZazieR
itacv2 (1) - Santos

[ZazieR]

Don't want to comment until itacv2 has claimed. But he's not the lynch for today.

He did claim... so we need his partner to confirm it. If his partner that he claimed he had does not confirm, then he is mafia since he was lying.

It is simple stuff here people. Either you get 2 confirmed townies or you get scum.

The reason why I wanted itacv2 to claim his partner is because you could see from past posts that the only possible partner for itacv2 is Toro.
All other player slots had stated that they thought something itacv2 had said was scummy.

[ZazieR]

Raivann

Have you already looked at my response to your accusations against me?

[ZazieR]

And this as well,

Raivann

This as well, please.

[ZazieR]

ZazieR, from the few games I've played with you you post the same way. Its not only meta that contributes to what I think about you, but your play style.

Unless you have played more games with me than I remember, this is false.
I remember four games, Choose Carefully, Past Ages, Mini 790 and this one.
Choose Carefully doesn't show the way I play now. I replaced into Past Ages during the Mime day. Due to that post restriction, I couldn't play like I normally do.
So it only leaves Mini 790, which wasn't finished yet when you made this statement.
So I'm not buying this meta argument.

My behavior in 790 was to win just the same as it is here. However, the longer I live and the fewer players that are around I do try to become more intense in my analysis. So far, it seems as we have some good information to prod with in confirming our masons today. From there we can begin to pick apart Zazie-town or Zazie-scum.

Can you give some of your recent finished town games?

[ZazieR]

Vote Raivann

[ZazieR]

Why, please?

I still remain skeptical of ZazieR. She grew extremely quiet towards Exalt's end.

See this

[ZazieR]

Or as Zazie says it, its called D1.

[ZazieR]

Now seeking a replacement for ZazieR.

If possible, I'd like to stay. I didn't post for two/three days ._.

[ZazieR]

Mod: Can you find out if Zazie still wants to play?

I'll begin seeking a replacement in 4 hours if she doesn't pick up the prod/post in here by then.

Blame university ._.
Still willing to play, but my activity has dropped a lot on the whole site.