/in-Vitational Game 5, Simon Mafia 2: Game Over before 832

[TDC]

vote: SpyreX

Also, see sig.

[TDC]

I don't think we should color claim. It tells scum whom they can't kill when we lock a floor.

I think that if we conclude that player X is probably town, we should ask that player which color he is and lock that floor (and town bellhops could then attempt to move people into that floor).
Until then we should just randomly lock floors and look what happens.

[TDC]

unvote
Vote TDC

You are commenting on the setup, but you are ignoring the early wagon or for that matter, any other scumhunting attempts.

Felt more important to speak out against the colour claim than comment on what looks like a normal D1 wagon. Not sure what the "other scumhunting attempts" you refer to are supposed to be.

--

LG: And where do we get a confirmed innocent today? As far as I can see, we only know there's at least one bellhop of unspecified alignment.

[TDC]

I'm also not seeing how, IF we had a confirmed innocent and locked the floor he was on, it would be in any way advantageous to find out who else is on that floor today rather than much later.

[TDC]

Okay, so the scum take the chance that there's no town bellhop, or we get a confirmed bellhop, or there are two. Only SpyreX is that ballsy. Long term, man, long term.

Okay, so you want to bellhop-claim and then lock a floor with a claimed bellhop on it. Will think about that.
But why do you want

everyone

to color claim?

So any thought on anything apart from breaking the game yet?

This is the exact same question I ask myself before posting, so it's not going to work wonders. If you have anything specific in mind, just ask about that.

[TDC]

Okay, so, assuming we go through with the bellhop-claim-and-lock plan, then it will be predictable which floor will be locked each day. The scum could then
1) move themselves around in order to be able to submit kills or prevent them getting vigged/investigated/whatever
2) move pro-town players out of the safe floor to kill them
both without anyone noticing.

Is that, in a nutshell, what you think is the risk of not colour-claiming?

If we did colour claim, 2 would of course still be possible and 1 would provide some information (and wifom).

As we plan to lock out a floor, they cackle because they know there's only one guy on that floor. As we plan to lock out a floor we think are filled with scummy people, they cackle because they know it's got our cop in it.

I don't really get this passage, how would they know how many people are in which floor? They'd only know about themselves and the people they moved. So if there's only one bellhop they'd need some nights to be any close to knowing who's where,
even more so if there's also a town bellhop who isn't on the safe floor..

On the upside, if the scum are preoccupied with moving the Bellhop, everyone else will be movable according to our intentions

I'm under the impression that the Bellhop can't do his business if he's on the safe floor. Is that wrong?
Because if that's the case and we safe floor the only town bellhop, we sure can't move people like we want..

[TDC]

EBWOP: if there's only one scum bellhop

[TDC]

Okay.

The plan is to have a claimed bellhop, lock his floor, and have him shuffle pro-town players into his floor.

I see two problems:

1. A scum bellhop could move said bellhop out of the floor, thus making all the work void.
Solution: We only let one bellhop claim and agree that any other town bellhop targets the claimed one and moves him into the floor he already is on, thus making it impossible to move him way.

2. The claimed bellhop might be scum.
Solution: We agree that once the game is reduced to all people being on the safe floor, but not over, to lynch the claimed bellhop.

Of course, if we only have one town bellhop, all this is going to fail anyway.
If we do notice that contrary to 1 the bellhop got moved, we keep safe flooring him and hunt for the (then necessarily existing) scum bellhop.

[TDC]

In the latter case I would agree with a colour claim, because there might be information in where the bellhop got moved.

I still don't really see the advantages of colour claiming otherwise though.

[TDC]

I would've preferred if we had a consensus on this first, but whatever.

I would suggest that no other bellhop claims unless we have decided that that'd be a good idea (I think it isn't).

[TDC]

Lock: Green

Do we all agree that if there's an unclaimed town bellhop, he needs to move fl to green?

[TDC]

I guess it boils down to how many power roles we have (who are not on green themselves).
The more, the better it is to know who's where so they don't waste their actions.
If we don't have any, it's better to keep it hidden.

[TDC]

Pretty much.

[TDC]

What motivations do you mean anyway?

Anything that happened so far in particular that you would treat differently if anyone would be revealed to be green/non-green?

[TDC]

Edging against what?

[TDC]

I changed my mind about the bellhop claim before fl actually claimed, so not sure what you mean, can you specify?

I'm still not really in favour of a colour claim.

[TDC]

Lord Gurgi:

I changed my mind about the bellhop claim before fl actually claimed, so not sure what you mean, can you specify?

I'm still not really in favour of a colour claim.

Still interested what exactly I supposedly changed my mind about.

--

With the proposed plans a believed claim seems like it's almost a free pass to LYLO so I'm naturally dubious.

In fact, my plan, which she explicitly mentioned when claiming, includes lynching her.

--

GR:
So basically, DDD is town for something that can easily be faked and because Zazie and Batt are scum?

[TDC]

I understand that and it would be decent argument if they were dead scum.
Where I can't follow is how you're so sure about them both being scum that you base your read on another player on it and want to stop the wagon on him.
Do you think your argument would still make sense if only one of Zazie/Batt was scum?

[TDC]

TDC: It seemed like you were pushing against it for the sake of doing so should it fail, then when it went too far to stop, you were rushing to get on. It's opportunistic.

How is this related to what colour I have?
What you were saying is that you want to colour claim, because it would shed light on my motives for doing what you describe.
But what you just said is entirely unrelated to whether I'm green or not and it happened BEFORE fl claimed.

[TDC]

I can't follow.

We were obviously never going to lock any other floor than the bellhop's floor.

[TDC]

In fact, BEFORE fl claimed I explicitly said we'd lock the bellhop's floor.

[TDC]

Seriously, you made at it look as if whether I was suspicious or not depended on my colour, while what you're now saying with the opportunistic-crap (if you look back you will see quite easily that I had initially thought the bellhop would not be able to do his stuff on the locked floor) is actually independent of my colour.
Yet you never brought it up before and don't seem particularly interested in inquiring either. You never asked my WHY I changed my mind.

This suggests to me that you were primarily interested in having a colour claim, and not in actually finding out what alignment I have.

[TDC]

You didn't like that I followed my own plan and locked the floor fl is own?
Can I look into the future and know what colour fl is going to claim or am I scum with her?
I don't see how that would make sense otherwise.

[TDC]

So whether I'm green or not, there's scum motivation either way, but I now know which one to claim to make my story plausible.

Right...

[TDC]

You were suggesting a colour claim would help when we already knew she was on green.

What changed?

[TDC]

Do you agree that if I was the only one who didn't get your trap and if I'm town, following you and actually doing a colour claim at that point (after fl's colour claim) would've been a bad idea?

[TDC]

TDC: Who are your suspects at the moment?

Meh, I still don't dig Gurgi's plan, but it all fits together. Don't really have anything better. Interested in what Zazie will have in the promised post, though.
Who are your suspects?

LlamaFluff: Okay, let me get this straight. You think other than me not finding anything particularly scummy, nothing particularly scummy happened. Brilliant. I wish I could pull that kind of stuff, too.

[TDC]

LlamaFluff: Okay, let me get this straight. You think other than

me not finding anything particularly scummy

, nothing particularly scummy happened. Brilliant. I wish I could pull that kind of stuff, too.

So who is scummy? I dont think you have addressed that in this game yet.

The point was not that the impression that I don't really have suspects was wrong, the point is that you seem to be sitting in the same boat, but pretend you aren't by voting the guy that sits across the bench.

[TDC]

TDC also still has a random vote out.

unvote

Thank you so much for reminding me. Not having a vote out at all (Hi, Patrick), is so much more helpful than sitting on the random vote.

--

I'm not at all interested in lynching fl anytime soon. Even if she is scum, there's still other scum to lynch and she's going to have tp play as if she was town and move people into the safe floor.

Moving scummy people into the safe floor makes no sense at all. If we have someone who's scummy, we uh.. just lynch them?

[TDC]

unvote Thank you so much for reminding me. Not having a vote out at all (Hi, Patrick), is so much more helpful than sitting on the random vote.

I'm curious as to why you said this. On the surface it seems like a cheap shot because I don't think my play is comparable to yours even though I'm currently not voting.

No, I'm just annoyed by Fluff, who, after me basically saying I don't know where to put my vote, points out twice that I still have my random vote going.
As if random voting SpyreX and not voting at all made any difference.
Your name entered the frame because he doesn't seem concerned by your lack of vote at all, and while I wouldn't say you're as clueless as I am, you've only really voiced minor suspicion of Elmo, as far as I can remember.

[TDC]

I'm not going to invent something to please you, sorry.

[TDC]

What would Gurgi coming up town tell you?
What would Gurgi coming up scum tell you (other than apparently indicating I'm town because we don't "work well together")?

Delighted that you'd prefer I didn't post at all instead of posting just "speculation".

[TDC]

Why so sure that one of Gurgi and me must be scum? Seems to be more than just thinking we're scummy individually, but rather something that stems from the discussion we had?

I was not suggesting that you post more speculation, I was suggesting that you would be less suspicious of me if I didn't post at all (see the lurkers that don't phase you one bit).

That said, if you hate this so much, you probably should've included pj and all other mods who announced games you were not going to like on the "not-want" list.

[TDC]

I can cite reasons that I think that each of you are scummy individually, so its not based off the conversation that I think one of you has to be scum. Its more off the conversation that I think that you cant be scum together. In absence of the conversation I would have each of you down as scum.

So basically both of us are sooo scummy that it

pains

you that one of must be town (and still plays

this

badly) and that's why the other is still scum if one turns up town?

Its part of that you were active and actually keeping up with the game, but still never commented on anything past speculation that was really bothering me.

Yes, that's my point. In terms of your suspicion, it would be better for me to post very sporadically. I disagree that that'd be the better course of action, though. Arguably, if a suboptimal course of action lessens your suspicion, something's off.

Meh, will post the complete version tomorrow.

Sorry, didn't post for two/three days at MS >.<
Will get at least a bit of analysis done tomorrow as I need to get caught up in my other games as well.

Did your dog eat your "complete version" and so you have to do it all over again?

[TDC]

I can cite reasons that I think that each of you are scummy individually, so its not based off the conversation that I think one of you has to be scum. Its more off the conversation that I think that you cant be scum together. In absence of the conversation I would have each of you down as scum.

So basically both of us are sooo scummy that it

pains

you that one of must be town (and still plays

this

badly) and that's why the other is still scum if one turns up town?

So you are saying that you have never had a game where player A and B are both scummy, but you dont think they work together?

Not that I remember, barring setup constraints.
I remember once claiming that of two townies, exactly one had to be scum. But I was scum myself in that game. It might be that this makes more sceptic of your opinion than I should be.
Point is, I understand why you think we are not scum together. I don't understand how you could be sure enough of either of our scumminess to set up chain lynches on us, while still thinking one of us is town, though.

Its part of that you were active and actually keeping up with the game, but still never commented on anything past speculation that was really bothering me.

Yes, that's my point. In terms of your suspicion, it would be better for me to post very sporadically. I disagree that that'd be the better course of action, though. Arguably, if a suboptimal course of action lessens your suspicion, something's off.

Kind of yeah. If you are going to bring up the other lurker arguement thing though, Zazie (although very recently) and Elmo both have done something along the lines of commenting on the DDD, or at least expressing some opinions on alignments at this point.

Elmo hasn't commented on the DDD wagon at all.
Zazie has "explained" her random vote on DDD, which is hardly a comment either.

I'm not even sure what you mean with DDD wagon, seeing how he has just one vote, the aforementioned RVS vote by Zazie.[/quote]

page 16, so who is scummy?

How about from now on, I just assume you end each post with that question, and I'll answer it when I have an answer? Would save precious keystrokes for both of us.

[TDC]

I get the feeling that im failing to explain this right, but if I have a 1, 2 that dont work together and I find one to be town, im going to persue my other pick.

I got this impression that you want to chain lynch us, by how you explicitly mentioned I would be scum if Gurgi came up town.
Surely if I'd be just your next person to look at, there's no reason why you'd put me into the list of people incriminated by Gurgi flipping town.

The DDD wagon was the early random wagon we had, it no longer is really existant at this point in the game, although I thought he still had two votes

You mean the wagon that rolled because he had no spaces in his name? I really don't see how anything about that wagon was worth mentioning. And I think I even said something similar back then.

[TDC]

What would Gurgi coming up town tell you?

You scum, spy is slight scum, DDD is slight scum, Fl gets more town points. LG town is harder to make connections on though as compared to...

That was there as a "The flip would not change my inital read on you" statement.

Meh, doesn't really look that way.

The reaction of Batt to it was something that came from it that I thought was kind of interesting.

I guess we find different kind of things interesting.
In retrospect, the post in question is absurdly verbose (especially compared to his other posts), considering it only says the DDD wagon has no substance (duh).

(see that I avoided teh question too)

Come again?

[TDC]

I'm basically just glazing over the walls on this page. The one thing I really want to know is how TDC feels about Llama.

Frustration seems genuine. Tunnelling on me - only Patrick has voiced slight support of my wagon, nobody else seems interested, yet he's sitting on me since my second post in the game.
Gut says town.

[TDC]

Also, to add spice to the pot - if Zaz IS scum I'd put Batt on higher than baseline to be a partner.

How so?

I'd prefer if Zazie was replaced, but that's kind of not going to happen if he keeps leaving a "hai. will post more tomorrow. promise"-post

just

often enough..

I guess as far as lurker lynches are concerned, Elmo is fine, too.

Note: Will be V/LA over the weekend.

[TDC]

I'm back.
Will hammer if necessary, don't think it is, though.

I'm not outright defending Elmo right now so much as making sure every single person on the lynch wagon has crystal clear motivations and isn't able to pawn off a possible town lynch as "well, he was acting to anti-town and unhelpful and useless."

If more-or-less-policy-lynching is so bad, where are you trying to get a Gurgi lynch (I'm assuming he is your top suspect, though I don't remember why you voted him and when you last talked about him)?

TDC on everyone except Zazie

I don't think so. I don't remember saying anything about Zazie's alignment.
I remember commenting on fl, Gurgi and Fluff, though.

I sympathize with Elmo's posting lately, but then, that's probably not too much of a surprise.

[TDC]

TDC on everyone except Zazie

I don't think so. I don't remember saying anything about Zazie's alignment.
I remember commenting on fl, Gurgi and Fluff, though.

So can you comment on everyone else then?

Sure, I don't think it's going to be particular helpful, though.
Have a gut thing against you, but I figure this is mostly from seeing you as scum in Advertising Mafia and not really seeing anything different here.
Patrick is not as obv-town as his site-wide reputation would suggest, but it seems that's down to disinterest.
Leaning town on SpyreX, not even sure why.
Nuwen, DDD and Bat are meh.

TDC and LLama have no votes up.

I said I'd hammer Zazie if necessary. Wouldn't know whom else to vote. (If I did, I wouldn't condone a lurker lynch.)

[TDC]

I assumed you were moving people to your floor?

Ok then. If others confirm this I understand. Regardless of what I did N1, which will not be revealed, I shall do this in the future.

I recalled arguments for either being made is all.

I don't recall anyone ever arguing that you should keep yourself on the safefloor. (There's no use at all if that's the only thing that happens).
An argument was made for unclaimed town bellhops to make sure you stay on the floor while you move other people into it...

TDC, if I'd died and flipped scum, what would you think about Gurgi? Nuwen?

I don't think Nuwen would fit as your buddy. That would be far too obvious an attempt to save your life (and it wasn't even all that necessary in the first place).
I would need to reread Gurgi in light of you being scum, but I don't think his reason for preferring a Zazie-lynch over a you-lynch were all that different to, say, GR's. That said, I would probably take a look at anyone who claimed Zazie was "more scummy" than you D1.

[TDC]

It's possibly implied, but I respectfully ask that that layer of WIFOM be maintained for the time being.

I really don't see how if you did what you were supposed to do, bringing this up would've been a good idea in the first place..

Anyway,

Lock: Green

.

No issue with Batt's speculation, though I too think Patrick being killed for repuatation is most likely.

vote tdc

Are you the new Fluff, or is there anything behind this?

[TDC]

Uh, yeah.

Are you the new Fluff, or is there anything behind this?

Not really.. I figure everyone else seems at least slightly townish.

I'm well aware I'm a hypocrite regarding this kind of stance, but it still annoys me to no end.

[TDC]

Because unlike Fluff, you're not even trying to say I'm scummy. You just say everyone else (eight people!) is towny.

In terms of annoying ways to be voted this is right behind "I'll vote whomever X votes. I trust him." when all X has done all game is vote me.

[TDC]

What reasoning? You haven't provided any.
Or are you asking whether I agree that everyone but me is town for undisclosed reasons?

[TDC]

Restated: Do you think my opinion that everyone else is more townish is undeserved?

I don't know WHY you think everyone else is more townish, so I can't judge. How about you tell me?

Do you think I'm incorrect that everyone else is more townish?

I have a bit of a bias when I look at my own play. I don't think I'm doing particularly good, but the good-bad axis is not equivalent to the town-scum axis. I would hope that my towniness shines through anyway, so to speak.

Do you think my reasoning that if everyone else is more townish than you then I should be voting for you is incorrect?

No. That said with 10 alive that's a rather weak line of scumhunting. This is where I'm a hypocrite, because I'm not doing better either.

[TDC]

TDC, I think you can comment on whether you agree with my conclusions without knowing the reasoning behind them. Not undeserving would simply mean that you thought it wasn't unreasonable for me to conclude what I did. Incorrect would mean, I suppose, that if you were in my place, you'd come to a different conclusion. I don't think you really answered either.

...
Again, how would I EVER come to the conclusion that everyone but me is town? How could I possibly agree? That just makes no sense whatsoever.
I don't know what the point of this is either. It might be the case that even scum is doing a better job than me, but you're apparently not willing to tell me how so.

What bias do you have looking at your own play?

Uh, the bias that it's.. me?
Believe it or not, but I can't actually step out of my shoes and go "Oh, let's look how this TDC dude is doing".
I mean let's say I, all on my own, mislynched someone. Would I be aware that that could make me suspicious? Sure.
Would I be able to read what I wrote leading to the lynch without thinking "This lynch is justified"? Would I suddenly think "Man, this TDC dude is so scum!" Hell, no.
In the same vein, I can realize I wasn't the most productive player D1 (D2 arguable, has seen the whole town drop near my level..). But I will never come to the conclusion that I'm less town than anyone else.

Why exactly would your "towniness shine through"?

As in, when reading my posts, people might notice I'm town. I would hope that this happens. I'm not saying that I'm obv-town or anything like that.

What do you mean by "a weak line of scumhunting", and why's that bad?

It is the weakest possible attack (well, arguably, it isn't even an attack) you could possible raise. Perhaps you're trying to do something although you don't have anything, perhaps you're just tryting to look like you do something. I don't know.

[TDC]

Incidentally, I think that's what Elmo meant. If you disagree with him, who do you think is the most scummy?

That's not at all what he's saying. I asked whether he shared Fluff's thought that I'm scummy for not having suspicions and he declined.
He is specifically voting me because he perceives everyone else as town.
I'm not saying that he should vote someone else because that someone else is scummier. I'm saying that voting me on the basis that everyone else looks town is ridiculous.

Again, how would I EVER come to the conclusion that everyone but me is town? How could I possibly agree? That just makes no sense whatsoever.

I dunno, that's got nothing in common with what I asked you - why the strawman? I asked you if you thought my conclusion was unreasonable, and I asked if you'd come to a different conclusion in my place. My stated conclusion was "everyone else seems at least slightly townish". I really don't think I'm being preposterous here.

I don't think everyone else is town and you're refusing to tell me why I should.
Why is Nuwen slightly townish?
Why is GR slightly townish?
Why is SpyreX slightly townish?
Why is Batt slightly townish?
Why is DDD slightly townish?

Why would scum they be doing a better job than you?

No matter what you think about me, but if you think 8 people are slightly townish, scum are playing pretty good no matter what, or you suck as badly as I do.

Are you more prone to think a behaviour is more townish if you know it comes from town-you, or what effect does the bias actually have?

I know I'm playing to the best of my ability. Every single post of me screams town, if I read it.

But I knew that already.

.
I'm really lost as to what you're trying to get at here.

Why would would people randomly "notice you're town"? I mean, how does that work - why would they reasonably draw that conclusion?

I sometimes notice people are town. Should work the other way around, too.
If you're asking whether I can point to a specific thing I've done that shows I'm town, then I obviously can't. (And if I could, it would be all WIFOM..)

Why is my attack weak? What is bad about it being a weak attack?

It is weak because it relies on your read on eight other players. I thought that much was obvious.
I'm not suggesting it is bad as such. Just annoying and makes me wonder why, if you can't find something at least remotely plausible, you bother at all.
Curiously, Fluff doesn't seem to be bothered by your lack of suspicion as much as he was by mine.

[TDC]

I'm getting tired of this.

Nuwen is slightly townish for defending me, I think she's at least slightly less likely to do that as scum. Batt is slightly town for gut plus his vote near the end of day 1 plus his recent comments about you. SpyreX is very slightly townish on pure gut... I go back and forth on that. Danny is slightly townish for the frustration. Goat isn't slightly townish, but I don't want to lynch him because he came up with that plan and how it pans out probably reflects on his alignment.

In other words, your reads are all very vague.

No matter what you think about me, but if you think 8 people are slightly townish, scum are playing pretty good no matter what, or you suck as badly as I do.

I'm missing something. That doesn't answer the question, and I don't take your point about my play. At maximum I'm slightly right about five people and slightly wrong about three.

As you would always be if you said everyone was "slightly townish". But clearly if the scum are in your slightly townish category while I'm not, they're doing something right.

I know I'm playing to the best of my ability. Every single post of me screams town, if I read it.

So you'd guess there's generally a disjoint between your perception of your posts and other people's perception?

Yes. Are you trying to tell me that you can look at your own play without any kind of bias? What's your read on yourself?

I sometimes notice people are town. Should work the other way around, too.

But you notice based on specific things, not posts like "hi im here" or so. It follows you should have some idea what kind of thing is likely to result in people noticing, and then have some idea of whether you've posted it or not.

If I knew what I had to say to look like town, I'd also do exactly that as scum, duh. You have no idea why you think SpyreX is town, and just like that you could have no idea why you would think I'm town.

It is weak because it relies on your read on eight other players. I thought that much was obvious.

Why does that make it weaker, though?

You don't see how more premises with less certainty make a conclusion less valid? (Compare your stance to endgame, where someone says "I'm pretty sure X is town, vote: Y", which is a perfectly reasonable argument.)

I'm not suggesting it is bad as such. Just annoying and makes me wonder why, if you can't find something at least remotely plausible, you bother at all.

Why annoying, though?

What, why annoying. It just is. I read your vote and it annoys me. It's not a "TDC has done this and that" which I can reply to. Which I can try to argue against. I can't possibly argue against it (the pointless discussion we're having proves that), because you're resting everything on your vague town reads.

And I don't follow the latter; why is it implausible, and would you seriously prefer I didn't bother at all?

I've already said this. It could be that your hand is empty and you're just trying to keep the game going or whatever.
Could also be that your hand is empty and you're just pretending it isn't.
I can't tell which is the case. I don't really see my wagon overtaking Nuwen's wagon because of your brilliant case, so I doubt you're trying to save her.
If you don't want me lynched, voting me and not voting me are just as useless courses of action, only that the latter looks as if it wasn't.
If you do want me lynched, we're back to your case being the weakest and least-likely-to-fall-back-on-you case I could possibly imagine.

[TDC]

Vote TDC

For that matter, who is town? I really have no good idea about where you stand at all. Two days untill deadline of D2 is way to far into the game to have that big of a question mark by anyone.

Welcome back, Fluff.
You will notice that I have said some people look town (you, curiously enough, for example) and that I have no read at all on others (DDD, for example).
I will be delighted to read your answer to what Elmo repeated.

Elmo: I'm fine with us dropping what we were arguing about, but I'm interested in your read on yourself.

Add Nuwen not getting replaced to the list of things annoying me in this game.

[TDC]

I would have preferred if you kept your vote until Gurgi had decided whether he'd want to jump on, too. He kind of seemed to build up towards that.

[TDC]

I would actually have found it strange if Nuwen

had

voted Zazie while trying to save Elmo from a lurker lynch. That would've been a blatant double standard?

[TDC]

Don't like some TDC stuff, can't make sense of what I think he is. Sort of like 3rd party, cult, maybe?

Yeah. PJ is widely known for his love of cults.

And, I just himmed and hawwed about this some but I want to bring it out to see whats up overall: I was moved to Green last night.

Why is claiming this a good idea? At all?

@TDC: No vote at the end of either day? Why.

Do you read the game? If you want to vote me for not getting a grip, go ahead.
You're going to have to accept that, while in the absence of anyone I really want dead I can live with lurkers getting lynched, I'm not enthusiastic enough about it that I would tack on my vote when it isn't needed to get a lynch.

[TDC]

See what Goat said as part of it.

Which he noticed was flawed.

The other half would have been we would have known there were hijinks afoot if FL hadn't said she moved me.

Further, as if there was any REAL doubt, this pretty much cements FL being town - there'd be no reason for a scum-hop to move me to the lock floor soo.

I don't see how, if you are town, telling us that you can't be nightkilled is worth it, if all it does is "confirm" fl, who wasn't going to be lynched anyway.

[TDC]

And the fact that if FL hadn't moved me we'd know more about the setup?

That's an argument that you could also use for mass claim Day 1.
What would we know and why would knowing it outweigh the obvious drawbacks?

Its not like I was a high-profile NK target that now, alas, is going to change the game mechanics - I'd put dollars to donuts the NK attempt was Goat last night by that's just my theory based on Goat / FL being town.

Why do you think that fl chose to move you, but scum would not consider killing you?

[TDC]

That's an argument that you could also use for mass claim Day 1.
What would we know and why would knowing it outweigh the obvious drawbacks?

Yes, because my confirming what FL did = massclaim day 1. Touche'.

Well, we know that:

a.) FL is a bellhop (or ballsy as all getout).
b.) It wasn't done by ANOTHER town party who would have jumped all over said claim by FL it it wasn't true.

I distinctly remember us saying that any other town bellhops should just protect her by moving her to the floor she already is on.

but we do know that d.) If I was scum I would not be performing the kill tonight - which means if we have investigative roles other than cop in this voodoo setup then watching / tracking me is a waste of time.

That goes for everyone on green. Especially whomever she moved N1 (if anyone). Where's you advocating for that claim?

Why do you think that fl chose to move you, but scum would not consider killing you?

FL has been fairly clear about thinking Goat and I were town. So, moving said town roles (esp Goat) to green helps protect them - especially after not getting moved AWAY herself.

However, what does that have to do with the other?

I'm asking because her objective is moving pro-town people into her floor to protect them from being night-killed.
If you're not going to be night-killed moving you to the safe floor is suboptimal. Yet you take that as confirmation of her being town. (What do you expect her to do as scum? Move her buddies into her floor so they can't kill anymore?)

I'm sure your two other suspects will join you shortly.

[TDC]

Thanks for pointing out you're even less helping than I am, alas I doubt it's going to change anyone's mind.

[TDC]

btw, SpyreX, where did you get the idea that fl thinks you're town (other than her moving you, duh)? I can't find anything.

[TDC]

btw, SpyreX, where did you get the idea that fl thinks you're town (other than her moving you, duh)? I can't find anything.

All of our interactions? The fact I got moved?

Raw, sweet delicious gut. FL can come in and say one way or another but.

So you can't point to anything specific.
I'm trying to understand why you are not questioning a move that you yourself must think is less than optimal, considering you have concluded you are far more likely to be lynched than nightkilled.

but we do know that d.) If I was scum I would not be performing the kill tonight - which means if we have investigative roles other than cop in this voodoo setup then watching / tracking me is a waste of time.

That goes for everyone on green. Especially whomever she moved N1 (if anyone). Where's you advocating for that claim?

Mind replying?

[TDC]

I will not state what I think of Spy's alignment.

Uh, what? You just moved him to the fucking safe floor. If the reason is NOT that you think he's town and want him to be safe from being night killing, then please, please tell me what is going on in your mind.

My question is at this point: what are you aiming for with this?

Am I scum? Is this a scum move? Why?

I don't really know where I'm going with this and I don't really see a scum motive for your behaviour.
I'd like to think you did it to avoid fl being lynched (that would at least somewhat associate you with her), but clearly she wasn't going to get lynched anyway. I agree with your assessment that you were not the most likely night kill on the planet, so pushing this as an excuse for not dying later on, isn't all that plausible either.

What is bugging me is that you agree that it wasn't all that helpful to move you, because you think you're more likely to get lynched thatn nightkilled and that the only evidence that she actually thought you were town is your gut (and she isn't even willing to back you up on that) - yet you never even asked her why she moved you and instead took it as confirmation of her being town.
I can't get my head around that.
I've asked that before, but how is her moving a townie (from your perspective) a confirmation of her being town? Moving scum makes no sense. Moving nobody makes her suspicious. Moving nobody but claiming to have moved scum ties her to her buddies.
Moving townies that are not widely seen as town and hence unlikely to get nightkilled, and can be lynched later on, would seem to be the optimal scum move to me.
Now what would your motivation be to confirm town-fl if you are scum? None.
But if you're both scum, why do this whole claim-thing at all?
On the other hand, if I was in your shoes, I'd (if I did claim at that point, which I wouldn't), sure ask her why, of all people, she moved me?
In fact, if I did claim, then probably only to ask her that question..

It just makes no sense either way and you don't really seem interested in explaining it.

A partial reread really didnt help too much. GR moved up my scum list for reasons I need to go look at closer over the next few days, and I am still thinking LG-TDC is a town-scum but am not sure which all that much. Im almost to the point where I think its one of GR-spy, one of TCD-LG, and one that im missing.

I assume LG-me is still because we're both soooo scummy but can't be scum together?
But what's with GR and SpyreX? Why can't they have the same alignment?

[TDC]

Okay, suppose you think SpyreX is scum.
Why do you not tell us about it and get him lynched? Assuming you already thought so yesterday, why did you not tell us about it yesterday?
How is moving him to the safe floor and thus barring him from sending in a kill (starting tomorrow) better than that?

I can hence only conclude that you think he is town.

If your aim is to keep secret who is moved, why no reaction on SpyreX spoiling the plan?

[TDC]

There's two options from my point with FL:

FL is a scum bellhop that is limiting their choices by moving people to the correct floor while not knowing if OTHERS were on the floor meaning that they could create a scenario where if we lynch her buddies then, whoops, screwed.

FL is a town bellhop doing the above because it is town driven. By stating that I've been moved and her confirming it there is no wiggle room for MADNESS later.

Further, by the absence of anyone ELSE being moved unless we have a scum bellhop moving buddies OFF green (which is still fine, considering) a town could have spoken up and said "ohh snap, I was also moved too" and we'd know whats going on.

Can you please actually answer the question?
What would you expect FL the scum bellhop to do instead of moving you?
Moving scum makes no sense.
Moving nobody looks bad.
Moving someone who is widely considered town indeed limits her options.
You on the other hand, claim about yourself that you're an easy lynch and not a likely nightkill.

Is it really that hard to follow my train of thought here?

FL: Is there any particular reason why you're not telling us

why

you think SpyreX is town? Do you fear that it would be too easy to conclude whom else you find town if you did?

[TDC]

Gurgi: What do you mean with Elmo says what's needed to be said?
Or rather, which of his four posts could you mean?
The vote on you that came without reason?
The requoted question to fl, which fl still hasn't answered and Elmo hasn't followed up on?
The picture?
The question why DDD thinks it's pathetic that we didn't vote?

[TDC]

TDC: How do you feel about SpyreX and Elmo both getting on your case at different times? Do you think it means anything about you? About them?

I'm not sure what you're asking here.
Elmo didn't actually have a case. He didn't have a case either and has now reiterated something that Fluff had already caught fire for on Day 1.
Probably just voting so people can't say he isn't voting...
I don't think SpyreX has brought anything new to the table. His "case" is pretty much the same as Fluff's with more time having passed.
Same goes for Batt and DDD who certainly look like they could be voting me with exactly the same reasoning.
Quite frankly, just shows me that I'm far from alone in being clueless. The people that do nothing are gone, so Elmo and I are the next best policy lynches.

Have you missed my question about Elmo?

SpyreX: I'm really not interested in having this debate yet another time. If the town wants to lynch for being useless, I can't change it anyway.
I don't share your implied stance that if it doesn't lead to me getting a read on you, I should not enter discussion with you regarding how you concluded fl to be town.


Of course I would be able to follow what seems to be the One Way To Play Mafia.
I could vote GR and say "Mostly gut, perhaps because he claimed to have a solid town read on me, yet is doing absolutely zero to prevent what is an upcoming lynch on that townie".
I could then every couple of posts bitch about nobody following me and how GR is still alive. Of course, I would ask people why they're not voting the obv-scum.
Then, with all the credibilty I'd have gained in this process of brilliant scum hunting, I could bully people who don't see The Light about how we're three days in and it is impossible they could have no real suspect, I mean look at me, I've found obv-scum.
Would also save lots of time, I suppose.

I'm really beyond the point of caring whether you or anyone else believes me that the cause of me not voting is that for whatever reasons this game is a mysteriously annoying and annoyingly mysterious clusterfuck.

I'm not going to pretend otherwise. From where I'm sitting the implication that this could be the result from me being scum is ridiculous.

[TDC]

So, according to SpyreX I'm not scumhunting at all and only posting meaningless setup speculation and similar garbage and according to you I "bring cases or accusations at people" and don't follow up on it?

People are constantly moaning about how I'm not having suspects and you say I'm "calling people scummy", "bring cases or accusations" and try to get someone (I don't even know whom??) lynched without getting my hands dirty? Seriously?

[TDC]

Can you find one person he has called scum AND tried to get them lynched? No.

The funny thing about this is that Fluff says this is because I'm not calling anyone scummy and that you say this is because I do but don't vote them.
Can you tell me and Fluff who these mysterious people are that I call scummy but don't vote?

TDC: You had no problem voting in Advertising Mafia. What is the difference?

*sigh*
I guess I'll just dig up all three votes I made in that game in the two days I lasted:
First off, the game started without us being able to vote, when we were able to vote I started with

vote: Seraphim

If he is oh so scummy, why ain't you voting him?

Which is essentially a random vote.
Then I

unvote, vote crywolf

because

She wanted to hear more from Seraphim, but didn't actually ask him anything. Seemed like a poor excuse to go into "I'm not posting anything because I'm waiting for replies"-mode.

Which is on the border of random/non-random, yet a better reason to vote someone than anything I've come across in this game, as sad as it sounds.

And then I helped lynch FaerieLord according to Adel's plan with

Not particularly convinced of the case as such, but I understand the argument for getting him out of the way.

vote: FearieLord

That was all in D1. D2 I didn't vote anybody until I was nightkilled by you and your buddies for, as far as I remember, not being connected to anybody, being a blank sheet.

So, not really sure where you see the disjoint between these two games.

What makes you think I'm scum? Furthermore, why are you making no effort whatsoever to commit to it if this is what you truly believe?

You misunderstand me. I somehow don't like your posts when I read them (gut), but I don't take that as a sign that you're scum. I have no actual reason to think you're scum. I can't mount anything resembling a case.
The evidence that my gut is reliable is zero.
I feel you should reread the paragraph we're talking about with a sarcastic voice.

[TDC]

Uhm, no you said NOT (P AND Q) ("can you find a person..

no

") and I said that Fluff thinks it's NOT P and you think it's P, but NOT Q. (Never mind that Q in itself makes no sense without P)

I'm a bit confused as to why you think that I think there might be something there and still think I'm scum. Obviously, if I was scum, I would know whether or not something is there.

You know. I can be like that, too.

[TDC]

"one person he has called scum AND tried to get them lynched"

Uhm, no you said NOT (P AND Q) ("can you find a person..

no

") and I said that Fluff thinks it's NOT P and you think it's P, but NOT Q. (Never mind that Q in itself makes no sense without P)

It is obviously (P AND Q) as both P and Q as the truth table would show that T, T = T; T, F = F; F, T = F; F, F = F. Remember, you have to do it logically, as I could say If it is sunny, it is nighttime and make an AND statement "It is sunny AND it is nighttime" which logically makes sense. Now P = Found someone scummy, and Q = tried to get them lynched. If P = false the whole statement is false. If Q = false, the whole statement is false. In both those instances, it doesn't matter what P or Q means, as one of them is false and thus, the whole statement is false (hence the "No.").

*sigh*

You said that the statement P AND Q is false.
I said that I found it funny that Fluff says it's false because P is false, while you think that P is right (which you seem to think I think derives from the statement, but which I observed from the rest of your post where you say it verbatim), but that Q is false.

I'm going off the assumption of trying to find an instance of you scumhunting. Scum scumhunt, usually not as well as townies, but they do it none the less.

How is scumhunting and saying someone is scummy the same thing?
That's kind of the point I tried to make about GR. I could vote him and say he's scummy, but that'd not be scumhunting. Or any other kind of useful.

[TDC]

Or rather it was your previous post. Whatever.

[TDC]

Vote: LlamaFluff

Just to make sure I need four votes to get lynched, not three. (If he votes me, nobody else would have needed to commit to me and I still would've gotten lynched).
That said, this is mostly because the chance of him being scum is non-zero, I'm not particularly faulting him for apparently having similar problems as I have.

Fluff: When I come up town, what will that tell you about whom?
I'm assuming it would look good for GR and DDD seeing how you think we're the only possible scum team.
Who would've been bussing?

--

Seeing how it's only three days to deadline and there are enough people around willing to vote me to make the four votes mentioned above happen, I'll also tell you guys that I'm vanilla and haven't been moved all game. I'm on green.

[TDC]

I'm really starting to think I'm hallucinating all this crap now.

I had forgotten that Gurgi had been pushing for a Fluff lynch back in the days and had interpreted his question as him being suspicious of the wagon only cropping up when I was about to be lynched. Which is why I placed him into the camp of people that I expected to vote me.

As such I never considered this:

Gurgi is expressing surprise at the Llama wagon and hasn't yet jumped on board? Well, shucks. Call me surprised. Seems a bit odd, no, considering his earlier stances where he kept wondering why nobody was voting Llama?

I mean, makes sense and all, but Gurgi's post really read to me like what he now says it was supposed to say.

Anyway, then comes fl and votes Fluff out of left field placing Fluff firmly in the lead and he.. votes DDD? Speaks out against me being quicklynched tomorrow?
It's not just that he isn't trying to save himself. He was actually suspicious of me for the whole fucking game and when we are the two competing wagons he starts a new one? It boggles the mind.

Then pointless discussion between GR and Elmo. I agree with Elmo, I haven't seen anything that makes me think GR must be town. What's wrong with pointing that out?

And then, of all people, it's GR who disassembles the Fluff wagon. With the reasoning that Gurgi isn't joining it (wasn't that the reason to think they were BOTH scum just a few posts ago?) and that Elmo has a bad feeling about it but isn't doing anything against it (isn't that exactly what Gurgi has been doing to give GR the idea of them being scum together?).

Then Batt (who's otherwise just sitting there) has this brilliant tip for Elmo:

It's not inevitable. You can always switch to TDC and lynch scum.

As if Elmo had shown any recent interest in lynching me.

Where's TDC?

I was gone for 30 fucking hours. fl doesn't do a thing for a whole week and nobody cares and I'm supposed to stand up at four in the morning or what.

I'm not seeing the DDD "case" and I'm really not liking how it came out of nothing with two days to deadline.
Can't fault SpyreX for his conclusion that this is because Fluff and I are both scum.
I personally think it's, because those that are trying to derail the Fluff wagon can't convincingly sell voting me.
GR certainly couldn't. Not sure about Gurgi, think if he wanted to, he could do it and not take too much flak.
So yeah, Fluff-scum would look bad for GR, as far as I'm concerned.

[TDC]

Just sitting there?

Sorry, hyperboled a bit. You just don't seem particularly interested in what happens with the Fluff wagon. Perhaps you're hoping the DDD wagon and the Fluff wagon will steal each over votes and, miraculously, my wagon will come out on top or whatever.

Multiple reasons. One is that there were two people content to let the wagon go while not being happy about it. Screams mislynch. Originally I thought Gurgi and Fluff were scum together, but Gurgi wasn't pushing in another direction, and Fluff's lynch become almost inevitable. If Gurgi/Fluff were scum together, Gurgi would jump on board for the bus, if he wasn't going to push elsewhere. The combination of that and Elmo's statement, which was kind of like an "oh well, guess we'll lynch Llama" and the Llama wagon started to look pretty poor. I also felt like both Gurgi and Elmo were sowing the seeds of a future mislynch on me as well. Gurgi with his "I'm not sure if this is scum driven or not" and Elmo with repeatedly wondering why people considered me town.

Okay so first you think Fluff is scum.
Then you think Gurgi is his buddy because he's not joining the wagon despite being suspicious of him.
Then you think they can't be scum together, because Gurgi would jump on when Fluff's lynch seems to go through.
And then you conclude that Fluff is probably town and Gurgi is probably scum.

Do you see what happened here? You added something to Fluff-scum, removed it again, and come out with Fluff-town and Gurgi-scum.
I'm really not getting it.

This paragraph assumes I'm scum. This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. Numerous players in this game keep asserting or suggesting that I'm scum or "could be scum" (same thing, really) but are unwilling or unable to provide any reasons behind it.

Why would Fluff being scum look bad for me? Why do you even assume I want to sell voting for you when I have spent a few posts today trying to suggest that people

don't

vote you. This is getting absurd.

I'll try to make this clearer:
You can't save Fluff by voting me, it would completely contradict your earlier play (we seem to agree on this).
You can save him, by voting someone who isn't me.
Like, uhh.. DDD. Conveniently, Fluff, instead of voting me (whom he suspected all along and is suddenly very unsure about), starts a wagon on DDD.
Fast forward to deadline, and you can easily vote DDD over Fluff.
Of course, all that only makes sense if Fluff is scum.

Or that's what I assumed (unvotes tend to send the message you're not interesting in lynching whom you voted previously anymore..).
But you're now claiming you will vote Fluff over DDD.

TDC: I assume you want Llama to be lynched then? You didn't really say much but left your vote on. Originally this was a self-preservation vote, what is it now?

Half self-preservation, half "if these were two town wagons, how could his ever fall apart like that this close to deadline?"

I would like to lynch either Gurgi or Elmo today. They are the two with the worst stances in regards to Llama, who I think is more likely town than scum at this point. I would like everyone to weigh in on whether or not you are willing to support either of these candidates.

What's the difference between Gurgi and you?
Your arguments for not being on the wagon right now are kind of the same, aren't they?

[TDC]

I suppose Gurgi found clearer words for what I tried to say than I could.

[TDC]

If anything is a fallacy, this is it. I'm too tired to decide what it is, but it kind of strikes me as a "using the conclusion to prove the conclusion" kind of a fallacy.

Meh, you're not the only one trying to derail the wagon. It's more some kind of force-feedback loop than a perpetuum mobile.

[TDC]

GR: Of Gurgi and Elmo, which would you prefer to lynch? Why?
Do you think you can possibly start a wagon in the few hours left?

[TDC]

And what do you think about DDD? I assume you have some sort of town read on him?

[TDC]

Not buying the "oh I'm lynched" thing. If Fluff just forgot about the magic of timezones he'd think the deadline was further away than it actually is, seeing how he is located farther to the west.

Gurgi: How would you expect Fluff to act?

[TDC]

Would the latter be what you'd expect from town-Fluff? or from scum-Fluff? Or from either-Fluff?
I can't follow what you're trying to say.

[TDC]

I'm wondering, are you aware that if you voted Fluff, it wouldn't be the hammer because Elmo recently changed his vote to you?

[TDC]

Anyway, deadline is 5 am for me, certainly not going to be around then.

[TDC]

1. Was anyone else besides SpyreX and fl ever moved (in other words, is there evidence that the supposed second bellhop exists besides fl's claim)?

2. Has anyone, besides me and fl, started out on green?

And yes, I think massclaim is in order now.

[TDC]

I have already claimed yesterday, when it looked like I was going to be lynched.

Seeing how it's only three days to deadline and there are enough people around willing to vote me to make the four votes mentioned above happen, I'll also tell you guys that I'm vanilla and haven't been moved all game. I'm on green.

[TDC]

When did TDC claim green? Of course, now that you point that out, he has every reason to claim green.

Not this shit again.
Do you have "every reason to claim green" as well?

[TDC]

At the start of the game:

Red:
ZazieR
Battousai
Goatrevolt

Yellow:
The ghost of Christmas Past

Blue:
Patrick
Nuwen
LlamaFluff
Elmo
SpyreX

Green:
DDD
TDC
LG
FL

Is there anything that justifies the assumption that Elmo was not moved to Blue during N2, but started there?
I realize that is only a possible scenario if fl is town.

[TDC]

Never mind, I suppose he should've told us if that was that happened..

[TDC]

At this point, I seriously need to reevaluate. Elmo being dead town means I am wrongly clearing someone as town, but the question is who...TDC? FL? DDD?

I thought you thought Batt was town as well.
Should I read the above as "I'm probably not wrong or Batt" or "I'm probably wrong on Batt"? One way or the other, you seem to have little doubt about his alignment?

[TDC]

TDC, I thought you hadn't claimed yet. Saying "THIS IS WHAT THE SMART SCUM WOULD DO GUYS" is not a good idea if you hadn't. Sheesh.

What?

In other news, gone till Monday.
Looking forward to being quicklynched by then.

[TDC]

Well at least it's over now.