/in-Vitational Game 5, Simon Mafia 2: Game Over before 832

[Nuwen]

Vote: Battousai

[Nuwen]

All of these FOSes need to turn into words.

Unvote
Vote:LlamaFluff

FOS: ZazieR, Lord Gurgi

Actually when you vote someone who can't defend themselves, you get to see who jumps to the valiant defense.

I see.

Do you think stating that reading technique neuters it at all? I do.

[Nuwen]

Is that an Ether avatar?

Yeah. She touched my special profile place.

[Nuwen]

LG and Llamafluff- I'm waiting on more play before I place my vote down again. Right now everyone I fos'd has done the same thing, so I'm going to wait for them to become more active.

Passivity kills orphans. Why aren't you pressuring all of the above, finding out their lurker policies, and putting them off ease? Waiting for players to provide you with case material at your leisure is lazy and opportunistic.

[Nuwen]

I don't mind a slow game while the search function is down. I like to look up the hopes, dreams and metas of people I've never played with and I didn't possess the lucidity to prepare for this game in advance. I

care

about you guys as

people

.

Battousai has said a great deal of nothing in his

involved

posts, and left even fewer voting footprints to boot. While I'm not suggesting that we halt all play and string him up now, I'm surprised that no one else shares my dissatisfaction. Look at these,

What seems to be the most likely, is that you are trying to lynch a player who hasn't been on to defend themselves, and leave yourself defence of lynching someone who would be hurtful when DDD flips.

I prefer quicklynches to have actually happened prior to going after those behind them; are all of your suspicions honestly based on the expectation that DDD's wagon would be pushed to a kill?

Unvote
FOS: LlamaFluff

Why does verification of DDD's "active lurking" (which I doubt was deliberate, but that's irrelevant to this point) lessen the insensity of your suspicion towards LlamaFluff? Do you believe scum always get town lynched for false reasons?

NUWEN TUNNEL, IGNITE!

[Nuwen]

I'd also like to take this moment of sobriety to bring up the mechanics of this game:

What advantages does the use of a bellhop have?

The floor system makes it entirely possible to "protect" a slew of players, with the caveat that they can still be killed by another person on their floor. A death on a locked floor means that someone on that floor has killing abilities, barring the intervention of a bellhop.

Does anyone else see a town use for the bellhop? The role seems like a game-convoluting nuisance. There's a faint possibility that the bellhop could secret the target of a NK off to a locked floor as pseudo-protection, but that also injects another player into the controlled atmosphere of sealed floors.

[Nuwen]

I'm waiting for an answer on the setup question before passing any judgment on Goat's plan or modifying my own. No one color claim in the meantime.

I dislike the fact that Patrick's exposition only came AFTER his two word vote post, but for now his voting reason, while I disagree with it, is solid enough for this stage of the game...

I find his behavior to be slightly townish; there are more optimal (read: easy) locations for a scum vote right now, and his initial lack of explanation is a common pressure technique that's independent of alignment.

If the reasoning behind a vote exists at the time it was made (and not provoked afterward), what's the difference between explaining a vote at the time it's placed and a few posts later? Do you think a scum player is more likely to exert pressure as Patrick did; if so, why?

[Nuwen]

Any bellhop claiming right now sounds like a bad plan. There is no incentive for a scum-aligned bellhop to counterclaim on Day 1, and a town-aligned bellhop that outs him or herself today will be biting the night kill if a scum-aligned bellhop exists. That play is combined mod guessing and a coin flip.

HI ELMO.

[Nuwen]

Oh wow. I

do

believe in fairies.

[Nuwen]

Any bellhop claiming right now sounds like a bad plan. There is no incentive for a scum-aligned bellhop to counterclaim on Day 1, and a town-aligned bellhop that outs him or herself today will be biting the night kill if a scum-aligned bellhop exists. That play is combined mod guessing and a coin flip.

This actually isn't true. We can protect a town-aligned bellhop every single night, even if a scum bellhop is moving them around.

How? I'm under the impression that bellhops can't self-target to negate another hop's actions ("Doing this will allow you to change the information in the Hotel computer such that it will order a

guest

to be transferred onto another floor the following morning"). Even if we lock a claimed bellhop on a floor, he or she can be pulled out again if another is present.

[Nuwen]

Lock: Green

I don't think Zaz's lurking is indicative of alignment, and I don't know what to make of his vote. Yes, I know that type of neutral stance is near-useless for alignment filtering right now. I'm not to surprised at my own (and others') lack of reads. As a few people have already pointed out, mechanics-based discussion is difficult to scumhunt with this early in the game. I expect the motives behind setup manipulation to play a larger role later on in the game; until then, I'm shelving the past few pages.

No color-claiming. While the town's colors are still a mystery, floor locking acts as full protection for everyone on that floor. If we all color claim now, scum will have a laundry list of targets that won't waste a kill.

Nuwen, thinking about it, your reasoning for finding my behaviour slightly town is similar to what I thought about Batt's first few posts. Do you think his initial vote was an easy location for a scum vote?

Yes.

[Nuwen]

Unvote, vote Lord Gurgi

.

[Nuwen]

I'll let you

writhe and speculate

until I'm done with this cuppa coffee.

[Nuwen]

I'm not lurking, I'm allowing mafia apathy to sink its nasty little teeth into my participation in this game. I replaced out of a lot of my games in the past ~4-5 months after being struck hard by the meatworld. Around the time of the game DDD mentioned I tried to chase a bottle of sleeping pills with a fifth of vodka.

Anyway,

I'll let you

writhe and speculate

until I'm done with this cuppa coffee.

Nuwen is also lurking. I don't think it means anything, since I've never known her to lurk, ever.

Let's just pretend it was a really, really big cup of coffee.

Gurgi pushed early on for a color claim after FL claimed. I mentioned earlier that color claiming neuters the protection offered by locking a floor. As long as everyone's colors are secret, floor locking can effectively act as protection to players on the locked floor

and

"roleblock" scum kills. If a list of killable (read: anywhere but green) players is compiled, scum will be able to pick off town players.

I don't buy the desire to color claim in order to "make motivations more clear," as Gurgi requested. What scum motivations could be revealed by color claiming after our setup dissection?

Lock: Green

. Is it locked yet?

Also let's lynch DDD.

Where's the vote?

I'll take a much closer look at the DDD wagon. It's barely been in my peripheral and sprung out of nowhere.

Zazie needs to post or die.

[Nuwen]

Actually, while I backread I want the following people to sound off who they believe the two scummiest players in game are with

one or two sentences explaining why

. I've lost track of stances among the setup disagreement and think a lot of the back and forth here is based on mechanical disagreement that's not alignment-specific until we progress further into the game.

DDD, forbiddanlight, Gurgi, TDC, Zazie - tell me your scummiest two players thus far, please.

[Nuwen]

Final question for Nuwen, what do you mean, where's the vote? I'm pretty sure I was already voting for him at the time.

Saw that almost immediately after shifting around the thread, I need to drink less. Everyone should disregard that last bit.

So... you kind of avoided posting your thoughts on if this was a town or scum tell here. This almost looks like you lean scum tell which is really interesting.

With the proposed plans a believed claim seems like it's almost a free pass to LYLO so I'm naturally dubious.

I agree with the periphrastic guy. There's a strong scum motivation for a scum bellhop to claim outright in the midst of a discussion that's leaning heavily towards permanently protecting any claimed bellhops. It's a ticket straight to end game for one member of the scum team. As long as FL does our bidding, however, I'm fine with putting off a closer look at her until tomorrow or the day after. There are scummier fish to lynch today, and a town bellhop claiming at the time FL did is not

entirely

unlikely.

I don't see anything from FL explicitly stating that she'll volunteer to be lynched prior to a lylo situation. Even if she did agree to be lynched, I think the more optimal pro-town move would have been to stave off claiming for as long as possible in order to get another bellhop to claim. If I had a pro-town bellhop role PM, it greatly reduces the odds that any other bellhop(s) is/are town too.

I like the idea of moving scummy or unreadable players to locked floors. The locked door acts as a role block and if no kill occurs during the night, we'll know that either 1)Everyone in the game is on green or 2)All scum are on green, barring any mechanics that allow for the opening of locked doors.

[Nuwen]

Town hunting and scum hunting are 2 sides to the same coin. If you find enough townies, you've found the scum. I think it's a valid strategy in any game, including this one.

I endorse this sentiment.

Howeeeeever, putting scummy players on lockdown (combined with lynching) will result in faster and more direct scumhunting than protecting pro-town players. While I agree that an experienced scumhunter is a powerful town tool, the mechanics of this game allow us to restrict and control mafia kills. We should take advantage of that offensively, not by defensively moving pro-town players.

FL's alignment is up in the air. I want to pursue her further either tomorrow or the day after, depending on how night actions resolve. If she is scum, having her move the penultimately scummy player following today's lynch locks down three potential scum candidates: one dies via lynch, FL herself is restricted to green, and we're forcing her to move another player to green. We can begin to narrow down who is and is not able to submit kills faster through elimination.

If the penultimately scummy player isn't actually scum, neat, we've protected a town role anyway.

[Nuwen]

walruswalruswalrus

[Nuwen]

We deal with FL later, her role offers too many town advantages to waste time on her right now, regardless of alignment.

Uh, I need to reread what I said about moving people and try to figure out why it was a good idea. It had that savant tone.

+1 for town Patrick.

I may have been intoxicated, but I still want to see scum lists from the people I mentioned. Now.

[Nuwen]

You have to give to take:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 44#1827944

I've been playing this game a lot more casually and gut-based than I usually do, but I tried to outline why a scummy aura was coming off of Gurgi.

Stop quoting other people at me, I have the capacity to read. Your eagerness to emphasize everyone else's support behind the pro-town locking isn't doing anything to assuage my paranoia.

[Nuwen]

Sorry, not that post. This post (not that it was much more specific and did very little to explain why Gurgi caught my attention around the time of the owlwtf thing).

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 61#1827861

Need. Coffee. Aspirin.

[Nuwen]

Yeah, don't worry I'm not ignoring you or anyone else. Just waiting on a massive hangover to clear up while browsing around the site.

[Nuwen]

Here, alive, reading. This game kills me. Every time I begin trying to follow posts here I zone out and end up reading the same sentence half a dozen times with no significance.

[Nuwen]

Someone succinctly summarize exactly how Elmo is anti-town, and why his anti-town behavior is equivalent to scummy instead of being alignment-neutral (albeit detrimental to the town). Pretty please.

[Nuwen]

And you honestly think a competent scum player would so blatantly ignore the game and draw attention to himself through non-contribution.

I want to hear a few people summarize their reasons to lynch Elmo now, and I want to hear how his flip will reflect on other players in the game.

[Nuwen]

There's a difference between "would be poor play as scum" and "too scummy to be scum." Don't conflate, please.

Haven't finished catching up and I feel a narco-nap coming on, but I'm not supporting what appears to be a near-policy lynch and I need to weigh in on everyone supporting it. There's scum there, probably. 20 pages is more than enough material to narrow down a scum elimination lynch, rather than a "he's done some anti-town stuff that isn't necessarily scummy" lynch.

(so tired that I posted this in the wrong game the first time around, whoops)

[Nuwen]

What makes you think that this game is any less subject to player incompatibility and apathy? Players /in'd for this game, players /in for normal games (with the added ability of being able to screen exactly who they're signing up with, rather than submitting to the whim of Xyl's eharmony robot).

Why are other inattentive players in this game not catching your attention equally right now?

Answer my question about alignment splicing other players, please. If you think Elmo is scum, name his suspected partners. Can you? If not, is that really the best informational lynch possible?

[Nuwen]

I think it's fair to say that I have a meta for not being interested / involved very early on in Day 1. My last game was Mini 792 - Tofu Mafia, for reference. This also fits pretty exactly with my play in BSG up to the point I decided a gambit was called for, incidentally. And Crackers D1, and probably some others.

Nuwen, do you think I should have played scum and just faked suspicions of some random people?

You don't need to fake suspicion to pull information out of people, which is what I consider the goal of Day 1.

Do you backread Day 1 activity on days following, or does it remain a fairly blind spot?

[Nuwen]

but you're clearly not reading my posts if you're branding this as policy.

Yep. I just said that I haven't really read past page 14 or 15, with the exception of the question/response following my reentry into the thread. I asked for a summary of cases on Elmo, and the one I got from FL vaguely resembles a policy lynch.

Hey FL, why are you assuming that I'm trying to build a case against you? I want motives, my posts aren't accusatory. They're questioning.

Who are your top partner choices for Elmo?

The 'filter' on this playerlist is no different than clicking on a queue thread and deciding whether or not you want to play with whomever has signed up (there's less control, actually, since a script did the matchmaking). I, for example, am not having a ton of funtastic fun figuring out whether you've got a stick in your ass or some ulterior reason for the 'tude.

Why don't you name them?

The prod list is a good place to begin.

[Nuwen]

You don't need to fake suspicion to pull information out of people, which is what I consider the goal of Day 1.

Mmm. That's not what I asked, though.

Are you asking me what your ideal play as scum should be? I expect smattered suspicion on day 1, some form of blending in, a bit of pro-town wagoning on either a forerunning case (which could even be scum-created, but probably not), and most anything except submitting to a lynch.

"Meh, don't care, should stop posting" screams exasperated and bored town.

Nuwen needs sleep now, will be back in a few hours. No lurking-based/noncontribution lynches in the mean time, pretty please with sugar on top and ice cream in the middle. Take some sprinkles too.

[Nuwen]

Your partner list and alignment paradigm for players associated with Elmo, FL. Fourth time is the charm?

Patrick, you too.

Tired and irate. Really going now.

[Nuwen]

Two pages ago Elmo was surefire scum. Sup sheeple.

I never got an answer on whom a town/scum flip would reflect on from FL. Specifically, I want to know where you'd confirm anyone as

town

one way but scum another.

Stop two-directional scumhunting, I can't even begin to emphasize how bad of an idea it is to base double alignment breakdowns on two unknown and currently-unconfirmable alignments. If Elmo ever turns up scum,

then

someone can go ahead and accuse me of defending a scumbuddy. If he's every confirmed as town,

then

go for the "scum-defending-townie-idea," (

wait now

doesn't that seem damned-if-you-do/don't to anyone else?).

I'm not outright defending Elmo right now so much as making sure every single person on the lynch wagon has crystal clear motivations and isn't able to pawn off a possible town lynch as "well,

he was acting to anti-town and unhelpful and useless

." Anti-town behavior is not always inherently scummy behavior. While it's not beneficial to the town, I want our day 1 lynch to be for scumhunting, not purging alignment-neutral players.

The Gurgi-Elmo-Nuwen trio is such a load. Do you people even think before you guys post? Isn't my vote still on Gurgi; is one of you going to call that distancing/preparing an early bus?

Noticeable commentary holes that arise as I read:
Battousai on forbiddanlight, Goatrevolt, Nuwen, Patrick
Debonair Danny DiPietro on everyone except Zazie,

want stances on at least five other players

Goatrevolt on Patrick, TDC, forbiddanlight
Gurgi spliced all alignments here
Patrick on SpyreX, TDC, kinda-Llamafluff (*1)
SpyreX on Nuwen, TDC, no opinion on Elmo until Zaz vs. Elmo decision arises
TDC on everyone except Zazie
Zazie on lololo

I don't find Zazie town or scummy at the moment. Lurking is null to me, especially when it's inactive. Everyone building a bloody case on Zaz should have called for his replacement ages ago to pull information out of the role slot, if gaining information is your goal. Pro-Zaz lynching screams opportunism and the wagon is a good place to hide on if most people in the thread are okay with lynching anti-town (but not-scummy) behavior.

Not going near that wagon with a ten foot poleaxe - I see pro-town incentive to lynch Zaz from the players in this game, just because most of them are frothing at 'scummy' behavior that's anti-town and vaguely scummy during the RVS.

Elmo's lurking is different. He's shrugged off most of the cases against him this game, rather than sycophantically picking up and commenting on cases to assuage suspicion. Adopting a "this is how I roll" attitude in public makes more sense from a town-ish perspective.

(still backreading)

[Nuwen]

I'm still catchup reading, by the way. That^ is in response to information I've gotten from recent posts plus control+Fing through isolated histories.

[Nuwen]

Whatever, I'm not really in the mood to line up lynches anyway. I don't forge connections til later game. I somehow get the impression that we are going to be butting heads a lot Miss Nuwen ^-^.

It's okay, I hate everyone pretty equally.

^_^

[Nuwen]

/facepalm @ floor moving fail.

Lock: Green

(You're still on Green, right FL?)

This game still gives me a massive headache. Consider this one of those annoying "I'll read and post... sometime" posts.

[Nuwen]

Or the fact that Patrick was, ya know, pretty damn town while not being an obvious protection target.

This. Suggesting any type of frame job requires information the collective town simply doesn't have to confirm right now. Occam's Razor this one. Patrick always oozes towniness.

[Nuwen]

The reaction has shown Nuwen to be, well, less cautious or show less discretion in acting scummy.

Is scum or town player is more likely to be conscientious about his or her appearance? Are the chances equal, but for different reasons? Which faction has incentive to walk on eggshells?

[Nuwen]

I'LL SAVE YOU, ELMO.

I'd like to apologize for my terrible play in this game. The setup and player list were fantastic; I'm not sure why I fell victim to apathy (but I certainly wasn't the only one taken down).