/in-Vitational Game 5, Simon Mafia 2: Game Over before 832

[forbiddanlight]

Oh hai gaiz

Obviously, the organizer of this event is the true scum, and thusly must be punished

Vote petroleumjelly

However, as the back up coordinator is around, it would behoove me to

FoS Mr.Flay

as a back up plan of action.

This is the only possible solution. Good day.

[forbiddanlight]

Based on your reasoning I am a confirmed innocent. You did not acknowledge my confirmed status. Resistance to confirming innocents is scummy. Therefore you are scum. Die scum. Die.

Reply with quote
:O

I missed you entirely.

I beg your forgiveness.

Of course in the future if you don't want that to happen you should make sure to caps your R. Sheesh.

I can only read so closely you know.

By these arguments I should be confirmed as well.

Let's start an UNBREAKABLE ALLIANCE!

By lynching petroleumjelly!

[forbiddanlight]

Isn't petroleumjelly confirmed too?

vote Battousai

Then the only possible choice is Mr.Flay!

Unvote, vote Mr.Flay

[forbiddanlight]

Mr. Flay has a space in it, he is obv-town as well.

That makes him obvscum! Didn't you read Glorious Leader SpyreX's post?

[forbiddanlight]

The clear answer is more DDD votes. Always.

The problem is you missed the fact that Flay KNOWS who the scum are. The only way he could know that is if he were scum as well. Therefore, votes for Mr. Flay are proper.

[forbiddanlight]

But if we successfully lynched him then we wouldn't be able to lynch the other scum!

I've got my eye on you missy.

Oh yeah!

Well in that case,

Unvote, Vote llamafluff

He's trying to pretend to understand the alliance despite his major blunder with the original terms!

Please, continue. And for your own safety, remember that Neil Wilson is your host, and therefore untouchable. Mr. Flay is hotel staff, who should not be approached.

Tar let's us touch him! Why can't I play his game?

[forbiddanlight]

*looks at SpyreX's first post*
*looks at this quote*
*looks at username*

Ignore the ''R''

I think that's why Zazie ^-^

[forbiddanlight]

Nobody pays attention to that Very Happy
That message gets more ignored than the "R" >.<

I always try to call you Zazie. You'll even see it in certain votecounts .

[forbiddanlight]

Is that an Ether avatar?

Yeah. She touched my special profile place.

I like your avi. It's pretty ^-^.

[forbiddanlight]

LG and Llamafluff- I'm waiting on more play before I place my vote down again. Right now everyone I fos'd has done the same thing, so I'm going to wait for them to become more active.

I'm...going to play devil's advocate and ask if you have a demonstrable meta of this?

How? That's not the feeling I got from his posts at all. He seems to be one of the more involved players so far, so I wouldn't say lazy, and I don't think there's anything wrong with waiting for more before voting.

I'm kinda wondering why this explanation came AFTER the vote rather than with it?

To sum. I think we should color claim. I think we should pick a designated "floor to lock" based on what things look like post-color claim. Every night the bellhop should move players into that floor (either scummy players to prevent them from using abilities, or pro-town players to keep them from being NKed). Eventually we lock the scum out of kills entirely, or force them into making really sub-optimal kills.

Hmm...I think I understand your logic and lean towards agreement with it.

One problem though.

Bellhops can be any alignment. This would be problematic for our plans, ne?


I dislike the fact that Patrick's exposition only came AFTER his two word vote post, but for now his voting reason, while I disagree with it, is solid enough for this stage of the game...

[forbiddanlight]

I do it from time to time, just to see what happens. Now you mention it, I remember debating this with you in BSG. Do you still think originally unexplained votes are more likely to be made by scum?

If they think they can get away with it. It buys time to come up with a good explanation if it's let past. Also can give time for someone to screw up and supply you with a good explanation.

The possibility of the bellhop being scum makes this plan risky, I think. Claiming floors without going for the bellhop part is possible, but does have the downside of allowing scum a guaranteed nightkill, whereas if people's floors stay hidden there's a chance of the nightkill failing. Of course, the same is true of town poweroles picking their targets. My hunch about PJ is that he wouldn't make a game that can be broken on day 1, but I'm open to arguments if there's some other advantage to claiming now.

I don't see any protown benefit. I'm giving Goat the benefit of the doubt though because I'm not sure if he caught the alignment thing.

[forbiddanlight]

Why are you commenting on this in particular? I haven't explained my vote, for example.

I keep forgetting when the deadline is for. D'oh.

I'd have to read. I may have missed it

As for the bellhop discussion...I understand LG's logic, but I'm not sure how much control the scum have. Like, how would the scum know that we have the cop on a safe floor or something without claims?

I also agree with llamafluff that scumhunting is better. But overall, I now understand why people hate walls of text.

[forbiddanlight]

Ah, I think I figured your vote was RVS, Elmo. Whereas Pat's was serious.

[forbiddanlight]

What about my vote, though?

You explained it at least somewhat saying Zazie was the worst on the DDD wagon.

Wasn't the GREATEST reason, but it was one.

[forbiddanlight]

2.) Claim / CC
--- Expected scenario. Guaranteed scum. Even if we're on the losing end of the 1-1 not terrible as the lynch mechanic is important and not the night actions if we lose the town bellhop.

Why is scum guaranteed in this scenario? In a scenario with two bellhops, neither of them are necessarily scum or town.

Unless I'm missing something?

SpyreX: What do you think about waiting a day to get bellhop claims, trying out my plan of shifting people to a safe floor in order to determine the nature of the bellhops we find ourselves up against, and then doing bellhop claims later?

So, if multiple people are being shuffled to the safe floor, then we don't need to out the bellhops as they are both acting pro-town. If nobody is being shuffled, or if people are being shuffled randomly, then we should get bellhop claims, and we would then know that we're probably dealing with 1 town 1 scum, or just 1 scum, or what have you.

I like this from Goat

Hint: Yourself isn't ever the right answer.

Question: Why not? Aren't you the only one who knows your alignment? Now, I'll grant it's not a PRODUCTIVE answer, but why are we townhunting in this scenario?

[forbiddanlight]

@FL:

Productivity is the answer. The lock mechanic lends itself to townhunting, as it were.

Fair. But way to not address other concerns.

[forbiddanlight]

I would greatly appreciate it if you would provide names with quotes (or at least make it clear who you are quoting).

That's a pain in the ass. I'd rather not. If you aren't paying enough attention to know who I'm quoting, then you aren't paying enough attention.

WHAT other concerns? That we, in fact, pick a scum that is playing the towniest game that ever towned and thusly he cant...be....?'d

What does this have to do with anything? I was talking about your false dichotomy that with 2 bellhops at least one is scum.

And voting for yourself wouldn't create ties and/or more information to look at when the game progresses as well as being, ultimately, counterproductive.

This was covered. I agree with you.

So yea still not sure what huge negative we would get from locking via the towniest player (thus forcing a less than optimal kill assuming all other factors equal).

I missed something here?

[forbiddanlight]

Meh. It takes 3 seconds, and while I know who you're quoting now, it's a pain in the ass down the line if I'm trying to read you in isolation and have no clue who you're going back and forth with. I have a good memory, sometimes freakishly good, but I can't remember every single post made in a game. It's just an extra unnecessary hassle.

Anyway, it's not ultimately a huge deal, just a pet peeve of mine. This is the last I'll say about it.

Thank you. There is FINALLY a logical argument for why I should tag my quotes. I'll try to do it more, but I will state there are times I'll forget.

I think TDC's analysis of the situation is a good one.

In which case, I guess it's time for me to do this...

I'm a bellhop *dramatic music*

[forbiddanlight]

I would've preferred if we had a consensus on this first, but whatever.

I would suggest that no other bellhop claims unless we have decided that that'd be a good idea (I think it isn't).

If I hadn't done it, someone else would have. I debated this before doing it. I decided that there was more advantage to actually just doing it than waiting for someone else too.

[forbiddanlight]

I need to go back to work, but it would be a good idea to analyze forbiddan's reactions to the ideas of claiming to see if it makes sense from a town-bellhop point of view. I'll do it later if nobody wants to step up and handle it in the meantime.

I agree wholeheartedly. Though I have a feeling that at best I'll look neutral given the stuff about how a scum bellhop doesn't necessarily exist. I was more attempting to play devil's advocate there.

[forbiddanlight]

FL: You know if you click the quote button you'll get the name included. It's much easier than copy-pasting.

It makes multi quoting harder though. And picking out excerpts of posts.

Also, since I did claim this far, my color is...Green.

[forbiddanlight]

FL: You know if you click the quote button you'll get the name included. It's much easier than copy-pasting.

EBWOP: Also, I use quote selected usually. Which doesn't provide the name.

I don't usually go into a full advanced post, just post with quick reply.

[forbiddanlight]

Oh yeah, not a bad idea to

Lock:Green

Also, I'd like to ask Llama why he didn't try to take a bigger part in getting people off setup speculation. You were more "No...stop" with a bored look on your face as far as I can tell.

[forbiddanlight]

The only effective way to stop setup speculation is to show that it hurts the town. I dont see it hurting the town much if at all in this situation, and the only alternative was to push my speculation as better, which means im going to start losing interest in the game.

Ok, so basically you are going for the "You all suck. I'm bored. Die" in a monotone approach? This does NOT help the town...

My vote on you isn't an accident or pressure. Its a for mad reals vote.

I'm about ready to join you in a mad reals LF vote.

[forbiddanlight]

/me reads the votecount

Oh hey, I'm ALREADY making a mad reals LF vote! Awesome!

Thats cool FL but play my chain-lynch-guess-who game too!

How do I play? Can you link the posts in question?

[forbiddanlight]

Further, if he WAS scum, I would be all ready to lynch someone else. Guess who?

Maybe I'll reread the game and find out! But at a later date, as I must leave.

[forbiddanlight]

@FL - Yeah thats kind of my early game attitude. I try to scumhunt a bit, get met with a "stop annoying us we are speculating" attitude. Kind of left me with a choice of "argue about something I dont really care about" and "keep trying to suggest we scumhunt".

The thing is...why say something when you could just be leading by example. There might not be much to look at but you can always try to scumhunt and at least create an early D1 case rather than just keep looking bored.

My vote on Zazie is pretty mad in it's realness as well. The madness is in fact so real, I'm about to kick Zazie into a well.

that'd be one hell of a prod.

That DDD is los scum. You know, the one you jumped in to protect and asked the worlds most obvious question about right here.

Oh hey! Do you think DDD is scum if Batt is?

I'm definitely not down with the Bat-DDD connection. Thats as far as I've got.

Oh wait, do you mean to say you AREN'T connecting them or you dislike their connections?

I also don't like SpyreX trying to link Battousai with myself. Try this on for size then, Battousai is my number two pick to lynch behind Zazie. Did I just blow your mind?

Come now, there is a quite simple explanation I won't supply Spy with .

I got nothing either way, it looks like she was trying to decide if it was a good idea or not as most of us were. Her claim was startlingly aggressive, but again that doesn't give me a read either way.

I do that sometimes. I gotta keep people guessing ^-^

[forbiddanlight]

My mind is totally blown to shreds. SHREDS. Of course it might have meant something if you had mentioned it BEFORE I did but now the cards show Greyhounds.

I meant I dislike the connection o' course.

Haha, somehow I figured you'd say both these things. But yeah, that's basically what would be said, DDD.

[forbiddanlight]

Whoops, we blew DDD's mind. Damn.

[forbiddanlight]

If my meta (which is a little outdated) on FL is correct, she is pretty obv-town at this point. IIRC she is a little more cautious as scum and more reckless as town.

Or Chaotic Stupid

I would appreciate the aforeaskedfor elaboration.

[forbiddanlight]

More from me tomorrow when I get time after work. I think the bellhop claim is more likely to be town, and can confirm that FL is reckless as town =/

sorry! I can't help it!

[forbiddanlight]

It looks like cheap suspicion to me. Sure your boredom and disinterest due to not enjoying breaking a setup is anti-town, but I'm not seeing the jump from anti-town to scummy in this case.

See, this is where we disagree. It's not so much he doesn't enjoy breaking the set up, it's the fact he barely put forth any effort to get us "scumhunting" as he says whereas I'd expect a townie to be more active.

[forbiddanlight]

Unvote, vote Lord Gurgi.

???

What does this have to do with alignment? I don't quite get why you said this.

Unvote: Nuwen

???

Also- LG/TDC: I'm totally lost on what just happened between you.

This...

[forbiddanlight]

We got chronic invitational syndrome. Fitting, but in addition to being busy, I'm terribly uninspired and not really helping. I'm considering saying we shouldn't be lynching Danny, because that wagon's been going for a while, and no-one seems interested in an alternative.. but there's been like half the game voting for someone with only their vote on. We need to wagon a bit. Deadline now scares me, because this will be like the least informative day evah.

Wagon LF. It's likely to pay off ^-^

I was pushing for a colour-claim before a Bellhop could claim so that the scum wouldn't alter their claim to fit with the Bellhop's colour.

Ok, what advantage would this have?

Alright, I understand it now. I also agree that we should have done an early color claim to lock the scum down into colors early.

Oh, ok, I think I understand now. Yeah...sorry

I do raise that the not-color claiming does make some townies BP's which could be a huge gain depending.

This I agree with.

[forbiddanlight]

Sorry, but what is a BP?

Bulletproof

Or would you have preferred SpyreX answer?

[forbiddanlight]

I'm not sure why since thats what I would have said.

I dunno, but sometimes when I answer questions directed towards other people I get voted...I really don't understand it but yeah :S. It's a strange phenomena.

[forbiddanlight]

Feel free to say something.

I don't see what's so appealing about wagoning LlamaFluff. His attitude towards breaking setups is at least consistent, and I can empathise with the boredom caused by the setup discussion, so I don't see why he's more likely to be scum.

It's not so much being against broken set ups, it's that he didn't ACTIVELY try to steer us towards a less boring activity to him. It wouldn't have really mattered if he failed, it's basically in my eyes that he doesn't like set up breaking and feels it's detracting from finding scum, and all he does is sit idly til we're done? Not good enough

As for saying something, I'd like to know why

so serious

the Nuwen unvote

[forbiddanlight]

Just didn't find her scummy anymore.

I have two impulses here. The desire for information you've been incredibly cagy about makes me want you to elaborate or I'll vote.

The other impulse is I don't like seeing thought processes behind how you clear someone town because then it becomes invalid in the future.

I will have to ruminate...

"Also, as an incentive to move this day along, if there is a lynch before the next vote count, then all living guests will be treated to raspberry pie and vanilla ice cream. This will have no effects on the game, of course, but I trust it will be scrumptious."

Can I have strawberry ice cream?

I'm a little surprised that "lack of scumhunting" is being thrown around a fair bit with no mention of Elmo's name. Is there any particular reason for that? (Not addressed to TDC in particular)

My tendency to tunnel for me...I actually haven't really noticed Elmo.

[forbiddanlight]

That's kind of what worries me.

Nyeh, you saw it in BSG to an extent

Just about the only people I'm satisfied with the activity from are SpyreX, Goat, and TDC.

So I don't exist?

[forbiddanlight]

In BSG it always seemed more like he was trying to accomplish something, even in more bored moments. So far it's not clear to me what he was trying to accomplish in his last post, other than perhaps making a post.

Oh, sorry, I meant my tunneling. I thought you meant THAT was what worried you

I post, therefore I am. You do not.

Lemme do a quick self post count. It won't prove much but I feel affronted .

Mod edit: Quote tag fixed.

[forbiddanlight]

40 posts out of 13 pages is not existing, LG?

[forbiddanlight]

DDD, forbiddanlight, Gurgi, TDC, Zazie - tell me your scummiest two players thus far, please.

Sure. After you explain your vote on Lord Gurgi. If you have already, I apologize, but would also like a link to the post.

I don't see anything from FL explicitly stating that she'll volunteer to be lynched prior to a lylo situation. Even if she did agree to be lynched, I think the more optimal pro-town move would have been to stave off claiming for as long as possible in order to get another bellhop to claim. If I had a pro-town bellhop role PM, it greatly reduces the odds that any other bellhop(s) is/are town too.

Ah, you see, here you make a rather bad assumption. You assume I play optimally. Like I have charts and EVs and all that crazy stuff on my computer for a mafia game. I don't.

I basically do whatever tickles my fancy when I have a quick reply box in front of me.

I like the idea of moving scummy or unreadable players to locked floors. The locked door acts as a role block and if no kill occurs during the night, we'll know that either 1)Everyone in the game is on green or 2)All scum are on green, barring any mechanics that allow for the opening of locked doors.

Please explain conclusion 1.

Town hunting and scum hunting are 2 sides to the same coin. If you find enough townies, you've found the scum. I think it's a valid strategy in any game, including this one.

For once, I agree. Mostly because this set up is conducive to townie hunting.

Nuwen's lock the scum plan has basically been beat up by GR, so I really don't feel a need to comment on it beyond "I agree with GR"

[forbiddanlight]

I'm not at all interested in lynching fl anytime soon. Even if she is scum, there's still other scum to lynch and she's going to have tp play as if she was town and move people into the safe floor.

Moving scummy people into the safe floor makes no sense at all. If we have someone who's scummy, we uh.. just lynch them?

Entering: Facetiousness mode!

Oh, but you see, obviously we'll have 2-3 solid scum suspects every day because evil is dumb and will make themselves apparent! Obviously, we'll lynch one, move another, and then watch a third cower in fear. Then we complain if there are more than that! It's a BULLETPROOF PLAN!

Exiting: Facetiousness mode.

Yeah...I agree with TDC...

So are you calling FL scum here or what? It looks like you are already trying to justify a lynch of her.

Good question. The problem is I'm far from "confirmed" or anything like that. If I were, or close to it, I'd feel happier about voting her, but for now she brings up reasonable devil's advocate points. Now, most of them are WRONG, but that doesn't stop them from being reasonable, or at the least not anti-town.

[forbiddanlight]

I may have been intoxicated, but I still want to see scum lists from the people I mentioned. Now.

You have to give to take:

Sure. After you explain your vote on Lord Gurgi. If you have already, I apologize, but would also like a link to the post.

Still not concerned about FL, I think a scum bellhop would have been more likely to stay hidden so as to avoid cooperating with a town plan (and to sabotage it if a town bellhop existed). We just need to be aware that if FL is a town bellhop, a scum one could still be moving scumbuddies off the safe floor (which is why we should be putting town players on there, not scummy ones imo).

Another fair point against scum locking.

[forbiddanlight]

Stop quoting other people at me, I have the capacity to read. Your eagerness to emphasize everyone else's support behind the pro-town locking isn't doing anything to assuage my paranoia.

Would creating my own wall of text repeating everything that's already been said be useful at all?

Also, that doesn't explain your vote? At all? I mean, the post you just posted does, but not the post you linked.

It's not overly satisfactory, but anyway, it's enough.

Scum suspects:

LF: Already beat to death

Elmo: Haven't really said much about this, and to be honest it's piggybacking Patrick who pointed out Elmo has been useless. So I looked. And he's right. The most "useful" post is mostly a paragraph on lurking, a paragrah on uneasiness about breaking the set up, questions for the mod, and no real scumhunting.

Does that satisfy you?

[forbiddanlight]

Nyeh, it's a better justification then I initially thought. for D1 it's pretty much fine. Though I think there are better targets out there.

[forbiddanlight]

Oh yeah, Nuwen, could you please read post 327 and answer the questions I asked that you haven't answered yet? It's mostly the one question, but if you see anymore I missed, feel free to answer them.

[forbiddanlight]

Yeah, don't worry I'm not ignoring you or anyone else. Just waiting on a massive hangover to clear up while browsing around the site.

That's fine. I just found it appropriate to remind you.

[forbiddanlight]

I'd prefer THIS to a pure-lurker lynch. However, without question I am fine. Also, to add spice to the pot - if Zaz IS scum I'd put Batt on higher than baseline to be a partner.

Hey, I'd prefer a "Someone was scummy" lynched as opposed to a lurker lynch too. My suspicion of those voting Zazie for such things is increasing.

My vote on Zaz isn't just pure lurking. The wagon as a whole is. I am stopping this whole "what do you mean you had reasons!" business before it starts. Razz

Aren't you voting Batt?

[forbiddanlight]

I would actually go for an Elmo lynch before a Zazie lynch at deadline. I have had multiple bad experiences lynching zazie for being a lurker, although I can not remember a game with him where he was scum. I can point to two games where he did disappear (but not get replaced) though as town.

I lean this way as well, oddly enough...consider it's coming from LF :S...hmm...

Well...either way, I will settle for an Elmo lynch over Zazie.

[forbiddanlight]

I'm back, but I still don't have any meaningful opinions - I'm halfway through rereading now. Feel free to ask me questions, or so? I'm still struggling to find anything interesting, that's the problem. (I don't think my stance on DDD was bad, although maybe I didn't express it well because it was late.)

Translation: I'm back, but I have no stance since I already know who all the townies are and I can't find anyone doing something scummy enough to frame

Unvote, vote Elmo

ZazieR had more votes.

First can be a valid reason close to deadline but doesn't say anything about scumminess.

Not as valid this game. We need four votes on a player for a deadline lynch. This is HALF of a majority. It's not preferable to a majority lynch, but as far as deadline lynches go, it's far less a leg to stand on if you don't believe in the lynch.

I don't want to lynch Elmo on day one because he tends to be helpful as either alignment. As far as I can tell, ZazieR doesn't.

Data?

[forbiddanlight]

If you've just stated that no-one's doing anything scummy enough for me to decently attack them if I was scum, why do you think I'd act differently as town?

It's a parody of your supposed point of view. Perhaps it wasn't well phrased, but the idea is I don't buy you are actually scumhunting, since obviously other players have found cases.

[forbiddanlight]

Data is me playing with him in Tofu, while people in this game have already attested to ZazieR.

And he was both alignments in Tofu, hence being helpful as either alignment?

[forbiddanlight]

Most players are helpful as both alignments.

So we shouldn't lynch anyone, eh?

Zazie, needs to be replaced. But to be lynched because he's basically a lurker is what you appear to be proposing.

[forbiddanlight]

Unhelpful lurker. I think if he were going to be replaced, he would have by now.

So, you'd prefer to lynch someone who probably has a chance at being town (Oh, probably something like 9/12 assuming three scum), over someone who is demonstrably scummy?

[forbiddanlight]

Elmo has done less scummy than ZazieR.

I disagree. What has ZazieR done that's scummy beyond the RIDICULOUS lurking I've known him to do in other games regardless of alignment?

[forbiddanlight]

Admitting he has nothing is not the same as what you took it to mean. I prefer his presence to ZazieR's empty promises of the same.

So why is it pretty much every other player besides him and Zaz has something?

[forbiddanlight]

I'm not sure how that is supposed to convince me that Elmo is a more sensible lynch than ZazieR.

I'm not sure why you think Zazie is a better lynch in the first place, despite all evidence otherwise. Me and Partrick have made our cases. If you choose to ignore them, and turn a blind eye to Elmo's scumminess, so be it.

[forbiddanlight]

I just don't see how what you point out that is definitively scummy doesn't apply to ZazieR. The rest is flimsy conjecture.

The thing is, we don't have enough data from Zazie. I'd prefer he be replaced, because from what I'm reading it's his active lurking you are lynching him for. A.K.A, a passive tell versus Elmo's active tells.

[forbiddanlight]

Active Lurking isn't active? It's an active choice, at very least.

Nyeh...with Zaz it's different. I'm playing a meta card I can't fully explain.

As an aside: I'm going to be ultra-pissed if we don't get an actual majority lynch. Seriously angry. As in if someone is awesome enough to not help push a real wagon as we get close or, god forbid, not be voting I will vote for them every day I'm alive.

Fine! I'll vote Zaz if he gets close to lynch, but I'm pretty sure he's not scum.

It's entirely the opposite of this. Zazie's push on DDD was actively scummy. Elmo's lack of meaningful contribution is passively scummy.

What do you think of my reasons for finding Zazie scummy?

show me again?

It depends on how you define it. Active lurking defined as "following along with the thread but not posting" is a huge tell. Active lurking defined as "posting every 3 days but not saying anything and not keeping up with the thread" is less scummy.

This is true, though Zaz has been implying he's kept up...

[forbiddanlight]

Pop quiz: If there really are mad awesome "this person is scum" cases out there, why is "omg lurker lynch" getting this amount of traction?

If you read, both me and Patrick are far above "OMG Lurker lynch" regarding you. Lurking is part of it, but it's also your manifest unhelpfulness when you have posted, which is more unusual for you than Zazie

In fact, I'd go as far to say you've done IIoA in the biggest post you made.

[forbiddanlight]

forbiddanlight: The only game we've ever been in together, I was hugely unhelpful. You have given absolutely no reason why I'm unlikely to act this way as town, merely pointed out that I would as scum. ("Elmo would breathe as scum, Elmo is breathing, therefore Elmo is scum".)

You were? But you were at least trying and had reasonably valid reasons for lynching me.

In this game you've done nothing.

[forbiddanlight]

Second time: Why am I unlikely to do this as town?

Last time you were town you didn't. You actually did something.

[forbiddanlight]

FL: Playing differently can be caused either by a different alignment or different circumstances. Why do you think alignment is more likely? Why do you think I would behave like this as town?

If I thought you were behaving like this as town, I'd not be voting you.

Overall, you are unhelpful and anti town. This is more likely to come from scum than town. A purely meta based defense won't really convince me otherwise. You could, maybe, start scumhunting and being helpful?

[forbiddanlight]

I can't see a lot of point to keep posting here?

Unless you plan to tell us who's scum, not really.

[forbiddanlight]

Someone succinctly summarize exactly how Elmo is anti-town, and why his anti-town behavior is equivalent to scummy instead of being alignment-neutral (albeit detrimental to the town). Pretty please.

Lack of scumhunting, check
Lack of attempts at scumhunting despite being demonstrably around, check
Lack of really valid defense against these charges, check
Lack of attempts to find a better case than the one on him, check.

Yeah, basically that.

Why it's scummy as opposed to alignment neutral is mostly the lack of scumhunting/helpfulness charges. Yes, these also apply to Zaz but my limited meta on both players shows it as more unusual on Elmo's part.

[forbiddanlight]

And you honestly think a competent scum player would so blatantly ignore the game and draw attention to himself through non-contribution.

I believe people make mistakes. Are you SERIOUSLY arguing a "too scummy to be scum" thing?

Seriously?

[forbiddanlight]

Apathy extends to all alignments. I'm sure we've all had a game where we were dragged through, and I can tell you, in my experience, it's been nothing about my alignment, it's all been meatworld or bad player chemistry.

The latter should be eliminated or minimized due to the layout of the game. The former is entirely possible, but I still don't see it as fair to give him a free pass.

[forbiddanlight]

There's a difference between "would be poor play as scum" and "too scummy to be scum." Don't conflate, please.

Uh huh. Well, then I'd suggest you don't minimize. Cause that is effectively what you said.

Haven't finished catching up and I feel a narco-nap coming on, but I'm not supporting what appears to be a near-policy lynch and I need to weigh in on everyone supporting it. There's scum there, probably. 20 pages is more than enough material to narrow down a scum elimination lynch, rather than a "he's done some anti-town stuff that isn't necessarily scummy" lynch.

Good, I'd love to actually seem some analysis from you besides hedging your bets regarding me.

[forbiddanlight]

Answer my question about alignment splicing other players, please. If you think Elmo is scum, name his suspected partners. Can you? If not, is that really the best informational lynch possible?

Well, I wanted to avoid the lining up lynches accusation, but fine.

You and LG. Obviously defending Elmo to the death. On your own, LG seems to be proposing that anti town color claim which would have basically given scum a list of targets, and Nuwen hasn't really been doing much except vague information and a couple shots at me for doubt.

Also, where was this question of yours?

Why are other inattentive players in this game not catching your attention equally right now?

Why don't you name them?

What makes you think that this game is any less subject to player incompatibility and apathy? Players /in'd for this game, players /in for normal games

Because of the fact we were much more able to filter our player list.

[forbiddanlight]

Hey FL, why are you assuming that I'm trying to build a case against you? I want motives, my posts aren't accusatory. They're questioning. Who are your top partner choices for Elmo?

Hey, Nuwen, why are you assuming I'm referring to what you are doing now as the pokes against me?

Who are your top partner choices for Zaz?

I can play this game too yanno. And I guess you at the moment. It fluctuates.

I, for example, am not having a ton of funtastic fun figuring out whether you've got a stick in your ass or some ulterior reason for the 'tude.

I for one, have no idea what in the nine hells you are talking about. Elaborate?

The prod list is a good place to begin.

So, you wanted to ping my radar? Despite the fact you HAD posted content before you disappeared? As well as DDD to some extent?

Ok...yeah, not working

Good times.

That was pretty cool.

I'm vaguely surprised neither of us put each other on the Do Not Want list.

[forbiddanlight]

So... FL. Don't you think DDD is being scummy? He's disappeared again.

I'd have to reread him. I do have that knack for tunneling.

Nuwen needs sleep now, will be back in a few hours. No lurking-based/noncontribution lynches in the mean time, pretty please with sugar on top and ice cream in the middle. Take some sprinkles too.

Considering how hard it was to reach 4 votes on Elmo in the first place, I do not suspect we will have this issue.

[forbiddanlight]

Your partner list and alignment paradigm for players associated with Elmo, FL. Fourth time is the charm?

LEARN TO FUCKING READ, FOR THE FIRST TIME

No, seriously, I already fucking told you who was associated with Elmo, and both are assumably scum with him if he flips scum. They have lesser scumtells associated with them, but as for that, they aren't worth lynching for.

[forbiddanlight]

Can we cool off?

Certainly. I'd just like Nuwen to actually read for what she's asking for before she yells at me. Maybe she should pay attention and she might actually get somewhere with her questioning ^-^

[forbiddanlight]

"My methods of accommodation are very specialized, in that I solve problems by lodging bullets in brains. I find that people who require my help are so impressed after a single session that they never have to request my services again. If there is a single thing I pride myself in in this life, it is cleaning up the messes that people make for themselves. And the brains and blood that go along with it."

Gimme the rack and we got an agreement ^-^

[forbiddanlight]

...

Duh.

Unvote, vote Zazie

Reasons are the persuasive arguments of Spy and Goat.

I got rather tunnely. Let it be known I WILL support a Nuwen lynch should the opportunity arise.

I know I'm gonna catch hell for that one.

[forbiddanlight]

So why did you folk only wake up when Goat told you? This is way too sheepy. He steps in and all three of you get right off the wagon.

Blinded by rage, etc.

Elmo may still be scum but I must admit the Nu-scum defense of town-mo makes a lot more sense...

[forbiddanlight]

Why would Nuwen-scum defend Elmo from what was basically a random lynch? That was the most townie thing I've seen this whole game.

Enumerated in Spy's post. It's a great way to gain the goodwill of a townie all the while seeming like a contributory member of the town trying desperately to prevent a mislynch.

[forbiddanlight]

Honestly, when I'm scum, I dream of random lynches. Scum can go for so long without being tied down to suspicions that way.

But that's a shortgame gain. The longgame gain from defending a potential townie mislynch is priceless when executed properly. And I took it hook line and sinker. In fact, it was a great way to set me up for future lynch assuming Elmo is town.

[forbiddanlight]

I suppose. You could have reread when I told you to reevaluate.

Yeah...sorry, hate doing that sort of thing. But it is enlightening. Why, in another game offsite I did a reread and it turned my suspicions completely upside down.

[forbiddanlight]

I never got an answer on whom a town/scum flip would reflect on from FL. Specifically, I want to know where you'd confirm anyone as town one way but scum another.

Huh?

Oh, no one would be confirmed as town by Elmo's flip. Why would they? Well, Patrick would be more likely town, but that's about it.

The Gurgi-Elmo-Nuwen trio is such a load. Do you people even think before you guys post? Isn't my vote still on Gurgi; is one of you going to call that distancing/preparing an early bus?

Is there any need to insult others?

And I tend to ignore votecounts. Yeah, bad habit of mine ^-^

Whatever, I'm not really in the mood to line up lynches anyway. I don't forge connections til later game. I somehow get the impression that we are going to be butting heads a lot Miss Nuwen ^-^.

[forbiddanlight]

Who is that addressed too? I think only forbiddanlight has suggested this.

Obv me. Also, I thought Nuwen unvoted Gurgi awhile ago. Cause I remember asking about that...or was it Gurgi voting Nuwen...

[forbiddanlight]

It's okay, I hate everyone pretty equally.

^_^

Oh lovely. And here I was hoping to think the best of you.

[forbiddanlight]

Patrick, even if that wasn't why you were on the wagon, that's why the other three were. That makes the wagon random.

No, actually, I had pretty much the same reasons as Patrick as it was Patrick that initially got me on the kick.

[forbiddanlight]

I'm curious why Nuwen drew heat for defending me, but Gurgi's "I don't like to lynch Elmo in general" thing went mostly without comment.

Not as vehement. I did notice it, just never thought about things in the scum defending town perspective

[forbiddanlight]

September 1, 10:00 pm CDT.

Umu...this would be about 27 hours from now.

[forbiddanlight]

EBWOP: Actually, 26

[forbiddanlight]

Oh hey, 4 minutes to deadline. the LG/LF debate, quite frankly, does not interest me.

[forbiddanlight]

Needless to say not having a vote ANYWHERE is tech.

This not being an actual majority lynch is ALSO tech.

I'm voting Zaz, aren't I?

if not

Unvote, Vote Zaz

[forbiddanlight]

Oh wait,

I

can't tell time. Deadline is in 45 minutes. Sorry, forgot CDT was BEFORE my time, not after.

[forbiddanlight]

Day's over.

[forbiddanlight]

...

Today is August 31st isn't it?

That would make September 1st TOMORROW, right?

I
Am
An
IDIOT!

I'm sorry...when I did my calculations yesterday I forgot that there was a thirty first of August...

we have 24 hours.

[forbiddanlight]

And Batt has apparently hammered. oooooooook.

[forbiddanlight]

Ya, the day should have ended last night, no?

you didn't catch my apologies for screwing up timing. I was 24 hours off

[forbiddanlight]

Oh hai thar.

I'm going to

Vote Nuwen

for the reasons stated yesterday.

[forbiddanlight]

Forbid, still on your floor so we can relock it and then move ahead?

Yep, still on my floor

Lock: Green

[forbiddanlight]

Interesting. I'm kinda surprised at that, honestly, but.

I may or may not have fucked up.

But I would like a clarification from you all. Am I supposed to be moving people I think are town to my floor, or keeping myself on my floor?

[forbiddanlight]

I assumed you were moving people to your floor?

Ok then. If others confirm this I understand. Regardless of what I did N1, which will not be revealed, I shall do this in the future.

I recalled arguments for either being made is all.

[forbiddanlight]

I don't recall anyone ever arguing that you should keep yourself on the safefloor. (There's no use at all if that's the only thing that happens).
An argument was made for unclaimed town bellhops to make sure you stay on the floor while you move other people into it...

Then I must have misremembered. Alright then.

[forbiddanlight]

/facepalm @ floor moving fail.

Lock: Green (You're still on Green, right FL?)

To the latter, correct.

To the former, you don't know that.

It's possibly implied, but I respectfully ask that that layer of WIFOM be maintained for the time being.

[forbiddanlight]

With a minor suspicion, I would think scum would feel safe taking him out as his suspicion was only minor. Less probable that FL, Goat, or Gurgi would want Patrick dead, as a player that has marked you as townie is an asset. I would say the most probable killer was Nuwen (minor suspicion and was voted for) or someone who wanted to frame Nuwen.

Alternate interpretation. Elmo makes sense as a killer since Patrick is good at reading her. Or Elmo was framed.

But, in the end the X is the killer or someone framed X WIFOM gets us nowhere.

[forbiddanlight]

So... Which scenerio with Elmo do you find most probable, and what has lead you to believe this?

Dunno, don't care. Not enough info, waste of time to discuss.

This. Suggesting any type of frame job requires information the collective town simply doesn't have to confirm right now. Occam's Razor this one. Patrick always oozes towniness.

Wouldn't know that. Played with him once, furthers my point against Batt.

[forbiddanlight]

Does anyone else find that even talking about the NK is scummy?

Depends on what is said. What you said doesn't seem scummy per se, just useless.

[forbiddanlight]

I really don't see how if you did what you were supposed to do, bringing this up would've been a good idea in the first place..

Well, that was an error, so we have to maintain the illusion to make it less of an error.

[forbiddanlight]

I'd love to see some Nu in here.

How about we just quicklynch her (yanno, like you all did everyone in my MtG: subgame. Seriously, those were some fast lynches)

[forbiddanlight]

So you're saying there is a cult here.

Wouldn't know ^-^.

[forbiddanlight]

So who is scum? Yes im asking again but I still have no idea on you.

Nuwen. I really don't know who else at this juncture. Since we have 28 pages of NOTHING.

[forbiddanlight]

On a scale from one to ten (one being least, ten being most) how innapropriate would it be to make a Nuwen joke about a vodka and sleeping pills cocktail?

Well, assumably that's deadly, but not knowing if she has a depressive history, 4 at most from me.

[forbiddanlight]

before we succumb to the inevitable and uninformative Nuwen lynch.

And what if she's scum? Then we have accomplished part of our win con, no? Still want a Nuwen lynch.

[forbiddanlight]

I didn't say it was a bad lynch and if nothing better present itself then I'll make sure it gets to the needed 4 and/or 6 votes, just that even if she flips scum I'm not sure it tells us that much.

Fair, but what makes a Batt lynch more informative (and I quite possibly may have missed it, so if you can link a post that tells me I'd be very happy)

I hate to say this, but on Nuwen I really can't add anything except what Goat already said. He basically verbalized the better part of my thought process once you get past the reactionary "OMG DEFENSE OF SOMEONE ELSE!" crap.

[forbiddanlight]

I remain unmoved so it would seem.

Anyway, I was wrong on Nuwen...great. That also puts me back to square one since I really was hanging my hopes on that...I may have to reread soon.

[forbiddanlight]

Llama is staying, right? Coolies. I want to know where Gurgi and Battousai stand on, like, everyone. Also, FL, I think I asked a question or two yesterday? Ta.

Ya did now? Could you point them out?

Oh yeah, FL, I assume things went properly, last night?

Hope so.

And, I just himmed and hawwed about this some but I want to bring it out to see whats up overall: I was moved to Green last night.

Why yes, you were.

And it wouldn't have been responsible for the no kill. Because it happens after night ends

[forbiddanlight]

Lock Green

[forbiddanlight]

I will not state what I think of Spy's alignment.

[forbiddanlight]

Uh, what? You just moved him to the fucking safe floor. If the reason is NOT that you think he's town and want him to be safe from being night killing, then please, please tell me what is going on in your mind.

I find it more wise to keep it unknown, so scum are not sure if I'm trying to move them or move town. Of course, if you think this course of action unwise, I'm fully willing to listen

This is to anyone, btw

I've asked that before, but how is her moving a townie (from your perspective) a confirmation of her being town? Moving scum makes no sense. Moving nobody makes her suspicious.

Moving scum actually does have an advantage, I just don't think it's greater than the advantage of moving town.

Or so I say.

[forbiddanlight]

He did what he did. I can't stop him retroactively and claiming I didn't move him would only make things worse.

In the future, I think it would be wise to keep my targets secret though, yes.

Further, I understand your logic about that.

So yes, I do think SpyreX is town.

I apologize for the mysteriousness...I'm wary of giving up too much information in this scenario.

[forbiddanlight]

Why no reaction on TDC telling everyone that you think SpyreX is town? Ok, SpyreX claiming took most of the mystery out of Fl's night action, but you are trying to get rid of the rest of the mystery.

Again, he did it. I can't stop it, and honestly, he's right. The logic was obvious. It was good of him to reveal it.

[forbiddanlight]

LG 810: I probably should but...it's really hard to care...it's like we are falling short of the critical mass for an interesting game. And it irritates me...

FL: Is there any particular reason why you're not telling us why you think SpyreX is town? Do you fear that it would be too easy to conclude whom else you find town if you did?

Not really. It was a gut call. More precisely he feels like he's acting the same way he's acted as town in a certain game I modded.

Though it doesn't look like we made an UNBREAKABLE ALLIANCE this time

[forbiddanlight]

Has any progress on stuff occured at all? I'll read from where I last posted...

[forbiddanlight]

Eh, yanno what? My mind can't really process this.

How bout this.

LG, Batt, and Llama are scum.

I have no idea why, but this will now be my assumption from now on

as such,

Vote Llamafluff

[forbiddanlight]

If I had to make a complete guess (which it is) we are looking at DDD-LG-GR. Now watch them all be town to complete my epic fail.

Well, I agree with LG at least ^-^

let's see that flip when the time comes.

[forbiddanlight]

Hey, I'm on Blue now.

So what do we do now?

[forbiddanlight]

FL: What do you think we should do?

Lynch scum. Honestly, I'm kinna at a loss for how to really handle this. Who else was on my list?

[forbiddanlight]

So there IS another bellhop or FL has pulled an amazing gambit, hmm?

Well, I am led to believe there is another bellhop.

[forbiddanlight]

Actually, I think you need to say who is on green via you to try to parse who couldn't make the kills.

At this point you are right. A blocked kill won't really get us anywhere.

Spyrex is the only person I successfully moved.

I targetted myself N1 and I targetted Elmo N3. Small consolation that I was right to move him :S

Unrelated to that, I'm really not sure what to do with you now FL. Locking your floor (after looking at where the deaths occurred) means that only you are locked and safe versus whomever you've stuck on green.

It's not important to keep me alive anymore. Even if I get someone protected it won't stop lylo. At this point I need to move scum to whatever floor we lock.

And honestly, I could get down with a TDC lynch...I'm tired.

[forbiddanlight]

There is also the possibility that I was targetted N1.

However, there SHOULD be someone who was moved N2. However, if they are scum, odds are they won't claim.

[forbiddanlight]

This is true, although I would find it quite odd for a scum bellhop to try to move you N1, and then not try again N2 when you would certainly not be targeting yourself, considering the backlash when you announced it day 2. If there is a scum bellhop deadset on moving you from green, N2 would have been the perfect night to succeed.

I didn't announce that I did it N1. I actually left that up to speculation. Of course, if they tried to move me they WOULD know what I did.

They might have figured that I'd try it again though since I don't think I explicitly stated I thought anyone was town.

Who knows?

[forbiddanlight]

There is that. I also found it fairly obvious what happened, whether it was left to speculation or not.

What made you think Elmo was town?

Nyeh, not necessarily. But I agree that it was probably obvious.

As for Elmo being town, he wasn't on my list, was he?

[forbiddanlight]

What is this list you speak of?

This list.

[forbiddanlight]

How does that list handle Llamafluff being dead and town?

Whoops.

Hey, I'm gonna put TDC in his place now, k?

Considering FL claimed to have moved Elmo, yet Elmo did not show up as green when he got killed, that means if any of the deceased were moved to blue, they would have known in advance of their death and would have had to choose not to announce as such.

Yeah, as you can read on the bellhop PM, the move is done AFTER the night ends.

This means we started with at least 4 players on Blue, 5 if SpyreX is truthful. That's definitely not what I expected.

There was no guarantee of even distribution, nor really any necessity for it.

Though you bring up a good point. Odds are I was moved to blue because the least number of people were likely to be on it at this point.

[forbiddanlight]

Mod: can we get a prod on FL and DDD? It's been almost 3 days

I'm still here, there's just nothing to say

I'll agree with

Lock Red

Also, TDC is at L-2. Meaning it's not likely he'd be quickhammered.

[forbiddanlight]

Not if he's scum. If he's town, Batt and Spyre would both need to be scum for quick hammering to not be a possibility.

Ah, true.

[forbiddanlight]

FL: Go townie go, opinions raaah. Please?

There's nothing to GO on this game. We have 42 pages of "I dunno what to do, what about you?"

[forbiddanlight]

Raaaaaah?

If it weren't for the fact I'm supposed to be rereading two or three other games, and also had other business, I might have something for you today and buckle down and reread. As it stands I'd really rather not at more to my plate at the moment.

[forbiddanlight]

TDC just died?

Damn.

I really hope that we just didn't get taken by an LG/GR pair....

[forbiddanlight]

Oh great, we just got taken by Goat and LG.

It was a very well done game, petroleum jelly. I'm just sad that all of us were just so...freaking unmotivated. It's a discredit to you as a mod, and I apologize.

Well, it's a shame I was too little too late

[forbiddanlight]

Scum were the only side that deserved to win, and I imagine they would have even with a town powerole or two. Well played to them. I was somewhat suspicious of Batt, but Gurgi and Goat were well off my radar and I don't even think Batt would have been my first choice. The apathy and flaking just killed us here.

Were Goat and LG on my list? Cause if they were I'd be happy.

[forbiddanlight]

Oh, did scum make any moves N1?

[forbiddanlight]

Ironically enough, the plan I originally proposed, which involved everyone claiming their color on day 1 would have worked out best for the town. It would have caused us to realize that there were 5 players on blue day 1 (we expected 3-3-3-3 symmetry, even on the final day we had no clue) lock down blue and FL could have secretly pushed people to the blue floor. This would have kept 5 players, all town, off of being able to be killed, and would have forced Batt and Gurgi to start shoveling people off of blue, which would have made FL confirmed town when she claimed bellhop eventually. That, or it would have forced Batt to counterclaim, pitting them in a 1-1 situation.

But we didn't know it was all townies on Blue. Granted, it still would be best to lock that floor.

[forbiddanlight]

And, yea, if we had locked red, killed gurgi and there was no kill there would have been some splainin' to do the next day.

Yeah...honestly, this is one of my most pathetic town games since my first one (you remember that one, don't you spyrex?)

[forbiddanlight]

As I meant to say, Kudos the the scum team. I must admit I kinda sorta thought you townie when you were exhorting me to lead, LG.

[forbiddanlight]

Eh, yanno what? My mind can't really process this.

How bout this.

LG, Batt, and Llama are scum.

I have no idea why, but this will now be my assumption from now on

as such,

Vote Llamafluff

Oh hey, remember this list?

It's really sad that I didn't stick with it :S.

Random guessing with a couple people removed led to two scum :S.

[forbiddanlight]

Vote: Battousai
FoS: Lord Gurgi

Remember this randoming? I'm really sad I didn't stick with it.

Apparently our neurons were telling us something.

That our neurons hate scum.