/in-Vitational Game 5, Simon Mafia 2: Game Over before 832

[LlamaFluff]

vote forbiddanlight

Mr. Flay has a space in it, he is obv-town as well.

[LlamaFluff]

damn my inattentiveness

unvote
vote DDD

Lurker space scum

[LlamaFluff]

unvote
vote DDD

Lurker space scum

Still lurker scum. We have kind of short deadlines so lets not stall a couple days into the game now.

[LlamaFluff]

Three weeks, so for me about one in the morning September 1st (its 11 in the morning right now for refrence).

[LlamaFluff]

I don't see the first as feasible, as DDD hasn't posted yet. Therefore you don't know if DDD has been active, unless you have seen him post elsewhere (which I'm assuming you haven't as you have failed to link evidence).

So if he has posted on site you would consider this a decent wagon?

[LlamaFluff]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 79#1812479

One link^^

You werent supposed to reveal he made ten posts untill I got a response...

[LlamaFluff]

Well, I'm not going to vote to suit you...

You have three FoSs out at this point, but no vote. Am I correct in assuming that everyone you are FoSing is at the exact same level of scummyness?

[LlamaFluff]

I was talking about how they all jumped on a wagon of a player that hadn't entered the game. I guess I didn't think about how they voted. Hmm... now that I think about that, it does seem that LG is a bit scummier than the others

(I don't like bandwagonning just to get out of RVS).

LlamaFluff and Zazie are the same just about. She quoted LlamaFluff and that is her reason for voting DDD.

Why?

It adds reasonable doubt in to whether or not he felt that DDD was active lurking or not. After going back to the votes, it doesn't even look like LG even cared why he voted DDD, as long as it was a bandwagon vote and it is why I decided to vote him.

Am I reading this as you actually thinking I wanted DDD lynched for lurking when the game had been on for about 48 hours?

~~~~

Im not into outguessing the mod here on how many bellhops are in the game. I actually more like the idea of just locking down the floor with player who looks most town, and slowly shuffling over any confirmed players to that floor. If a town looking player gets moved off the "safe" floor, then bellhop(s) claim, and we should be able to keep the town one safe from there on out.

unvote
Vote TDC

You are commenting on the setup, but you are ignoring the early wagon or for that matter, any other scumhunting attempts.

[LlamaFluff]

Ok, here is my opinion on trying to break the game: it wont work.

The best thing we can do is most likely going to be just to wait untill we are ready to lynch, have the person we are going to lynch color claim then just do a 1d3 on the other colors to see what floor to lock up (this assumes that we are distributed equally). It will RB/protect four players, scum will not know who is NK immune, it basically makes more of the setup hidden to scum, protecting up to four random players. I would rather make four unknown players immune, then make one known immune.

[LlamaFluff]

Felt more important to speak out against the colour claim than comment on what looks like a normal D1 wagon. Not sure what the "other scumhunting attempts" you refer to are supposed to be.

I dont think we would of ever really color claimed, it has no real advantages because scum know where everyone is after we do that.

Even if you think that it was important to comment on, you still are not really doing any scumhunting, or reacting to anyone who has done any. I dont want to have a game that we spend the first week of a fixed deadline trying to figure out if we can break the setup, or what the best time to claim is, and then not have the maximum time to lynch.

So any thought on anything apart from breaking the game yet?

[LlamaFluff]

Well since you're being so helpful on that matter, at least contribute in more conventional means. You and Llama both.

I absolutely hate playing follow the role, I hate trying to break setups, it just makes the game much less enjoyable to me. I would rather win the game through scumhunting with some role aid instead of roles with some scumhunting.

I think what I said is the best way to go about it, I would much rather just get down to scumhunting instead of sending half the day trying to break the game. If we are going to insist on setup speculation, I just like locking down a random floor. If we try and lock down the floor with someone who is most town looking, scum can just kill the second towniest. From there the bellhop can just move who he thinks is most town to his floor and we start locking that way.

So scumhunting, its a good thing. That should be something we do. Quite a few people have done litte/none in that department with almost a third of the day gone.

[LlamaFluff]

If your issue was simply wanting to play regularly versus breaking the setup why did you not intially say so versus putting up rationales that don't stand out as strong and THEN switching to the "scumhunting" stance?

Kind of a lip service type thing. Its a concrete way of going about things that is not going to attempt to break the game and just leaves as much as possible about the setup in the dark. Then we can actually play mafia, not 'solve the puzzle'. If I wanted to play 'solve the puzzle' I would go get a puzzle book.

[LlamaFluff]

Even if this ALL works its not "breaking the setup". Its eliminating the scum-power ploy if it exists with the bellhop AND putting that power right in the towns hands. Its not follow the cop, its keep the towny alive.

Llama, this isn't "solve the puzzle, while ignoring scumhunting". Doing this will just allow us to supplement scumhunting with puzzle pieces, as opposed to doing nothing and supplementing scumhunting with...also nothing...

Personally, I'm willing to sacrifice your idealized mafia game if it will give us a greater chance of winning. If bending the setup in our favor is going to help the town win, I don't see how you can possibly justify not doing it.

I dont play break the setup or anything like that. Its part of the reason I tend to actually not like playing open/semi-open games as much. Too much time is spend on setup and not enough is spent on scumhunting. I could care less about trying to break the game on setup or anything like that, I play much much worse when that is the majority of what is going on, I start lurking because im not interested, it just really drags down my ability to be a part of the game.

~~~

For about my last idea on the game speculation. I either like playing it random, or just saying "bellhop move all players to floor X" and continually locking it down. No scum can fake bellhop after that.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama, can you link to a past situation where you've taken a similar stance towards setups?

This game is a good example. It became mostly 'follow the PR' starting D3, I lost just about all interest, stopped having fun and lurked for the majority of the game.

[LlamaFluff]

I still dont see the point of color claiming. We lock green, and its protecting anyone else on green as well. Scum dont know who is on green, so we still random protect a few people. FL just moves town looking players to green, even if she is scum its a forced move. If she gets moved off green, then there is a scum BH.

Now that we have done enough setup work, scumhunting maybe?

Lock Green

@mod

- Can you prod zazie and Elmo

[LlamaFluff]

What would have, up to this point, stopped you from scumhunting? You've mentioned this more than once now and when combined with the slippy-slide of setup speculation I'm not thrilled.

When all that is going on is speculation, there really arent any real good scum tells unless you want to pull the "anyone who disagrees with me is scum" thing. The best tells you can put on someone right now are really lurking (athough I still say that speculation instead of scumhunting is a bit of a tell).

[LlamaFluff]

Also, I'd like to ask Llama why he didn't try to take a bigger part in getting people off setup speculation. You were more "No...stop" with a bored look on your face as far as I can tell.

The only effective way to stop setup speculation is to show that it hurts the town. I dont see it hurting the town much if at all in this situation, and the only alternative was to push my speculation as better, which means im going to start losing interest in the game.

If that is the case (and I doubt it) have you not setup a scenario where scumhunting can not happen?

I dont play open games (I think ive played one non newbie open that was not a pure vanilla game, and that was over a year ago). People basically refused to scumhunt during the speculation phase. I made a vote, and it got ignored ENTIRELY, it was kind of disheartening really. I cant scumhunt by myself, there is no back and forths, there are no other opinions.

If setup-speculation = no ability to look for scum then how, exactly, is one going to START looking for scum?

Same way every game starts. Random stage, calling a slightly scummy move more serious then it is, and playing from there. We basically are a week into the game with not having done anything along the lines of looking for who is scummy. Its not what I signed up for.

[LlamaFluff]

But, we have. Or have been.

My vote on you isn't an accident or pressure. Its a for mad reals vote.

If its for not really caring about speculation or not really pushing hard about what I thought the best idea was, yeah I did that fairly intentionally. Getting into a big arguement about something that I dont really care about did not seem to be a good idea.

@FL - Yeah thats kind of my early game attitude. I try to scumhunt a bit, get met with a "stop annoying us we are speculating" attitude. Kind of left me with a choice of "argue about something I dont really care about" and "keep trying to suggest we scumhunt".

[LlamaFluff]

I got nothing either way, it looks like she was trying to decide if it was a good idea or not as most of us were. Her claim was startlingly aggressive, but again that doesn't give me a read either way.

I really don't like her 176 though.

So... you kind of avoided posting your thoughts on if this was a town or scum tell here. This almost looks like you lean scum tell which is really interesting. So if you had to choose which one is it? Also elaborate on 176.

If my meta (which is a little outdated) on FL is correct, she is pretty obv-town at this point. IIRC she is a little more cautious as scum and more reckless as town.

[LlamaFluff]

Hi

We have 10 days untill deadline

TDC still has not done any noticeable scum hunting.

He seems like he might see LG as suspicious for OMGUS mostly, or maybe DDD. There does seem to be an attempt to stop having Goat call DDD town though. Like this

So basically, DDD is town for something that can easily be faked and because Zazie and Batt are scum?

I understand that and it would be decent argument if they were dead scum.
Where I can't follow is how you're so sure about them both being scum that you base your read on another player on it and want to stop the wagon on him.
Do you think your argument would still make sense if only one of Zazie/Batt was scum?

Yeah no scumhunting really. This is as close as it gets.

Thats about it from him so far if we ignore setup speculation. Still like my vote. Will do a more close read of the last few pages later today.

[LlamaFluff]

The problem I have with you, LF, is the same as FL. You did not try to scumhunt while everyone was doing setup speculation, and instead tried to get others to scumhunt (TDC). Did you just not see anything scummy?

We basically had a small RVS stage, and then we went off into speculation. I basically could either vote someone off a random stage movement, for not acknowledging anything that happened in the RVS, or vote someone that I didnt agree with on their theory.

There was nothing really scummy in the RVS to me, it moved before I really thought it was over, so I just tried to get on someone who never even was a part of it. Then just got met with things like this

Felt more important to speak out against the colour claim than comment on what looks like a normal D1 wagon. Not sure what the "other scumhunting attempts" you refer to are supposed to be.

So any thought on anything apart from breaking the game yet?

This is the exact same question I ask myself before posting, so it's not going to work wonders. If you have anything specific in mind, just ask about that.

Kind of disheartening to get shot down twice with "leave me alone" type responses.

[LlamaFluff]

LlamaFluff: Okay, let me get this straight. You think other than me not finding anything particularly scummy, nothing particularly scummy happened. Brilliant. I wish I could pull that kind of stuff, too.

So who is scummy? I dont think you have addressed that in this game yet.

[LlamaFluff]

The problem I have with you, LF, is the same as FL. You did not try to scumhunt while everyone was doing setup speculation, and instead tried to get others to scumhunt (TDC). Did you just not see anything scummy?

There was nothing really scummy in the RVS to me, it moved before I really thought it was over, so I just tried to get on someone who never even was a part of it.

So, what kind of scumhunting did you expect others to do then?

Anything really, even if it was just a comment on the wagons on you or DDD. TDC has his random vote still out IIRC, 14 pages into the game.

[LlamaFluff]

Elmo: You said you are caught up, yet you have a rvs vote still on me. Do you still find my scummy and if so, why?

Elmo is on V/LA untill wednesday IIRC. TDC also still has a random vote out.

I don't see anything from FL explicitly stating that she'll volunteer to be lynched prior to a lylo situation. Even if she did agree to be lynched, I think the more optimal pro-town move would have been to stave off claiming for as long as possible in order to get another bellhop to claim. If I had a pro-town bellhop role PM, it greatly reduces the odds that any other bellhop(s) is/are town too.

FL's alignment is up in the air. I want to pursue her further either tomorrow or the day after, depending on how night actions resolve. If she is scum, having her move the penultimately scummy player following today's lynch locks down three potential scum candidates: one dies via lynch, FL herself is restricted to green, and we're forcing her to move another player to green. We can begin to narrow down who is and is not able to submit kills faster through elimination.

So are you calling FL scum here or what? It looks like you are already trying to justify a lynch of her.

[LlamaFluff]

unvote Thank you so much for reminding me. Not having a vote out at all (Hi, Patrick), is so much more helpful than sitting on the random vote.

I'm curious as to why you said this. On the surface it seems like a cheap shot because I don't think my play is comparable to yours even though I'm currently not voting.

No, I'm just annoyed by Fluff, who, after me basically saying I don't know where to put my vote, points out twice that I still have my random vote going.
As if random voting SpyreX and not voting at all made any difference.
Your name entered the frame because he doesn't seem concerned by your lack of vote at all, and

while I wouldn't say you're as clueless as I am, you've only really voiced minor suspicion of Elmo, as far as I can remember

.

There is your difference. I can recall some of his suspicions, I know where he stands on a few players. This isnt the case for you right now. We are almost on page 15 and I really dont think you have even called anyone suspicious.

[LlamaFluff]

It seems like this game has lurkers and townies. Goat is town, Patrick is (always) town, SpyreX seems townish, TDC is town, Nuwen is probably townish (not that I can read her for anything), forbiddanlight's neutral, DDD is becoming neutral as he bothers to post, Elmo's not posting, Batt's not posting, ZazieR's not posting, LlamaFluff is scummy.

Wheeeeeeee.

Nice to see some reasoning behind that accusation ya know...

[LlamaFluff]

Llama:

If you had two bullets right now, who would you shoot? Why?

TDC - Still has done absolutely nothing in this game past speculation. When we are 15 pages into the game, are clearly out of the random stage, have multiple wagons going, and you still can not come up with anything of use, something is not right.

LG - The 'trap' or whatever it was after FL claimed to try and get people to color claim makes no sense still as i go back and read it yet again. He says that people that claimed after FL did would lie about their claim and make it optimal (which I guess he is saying is green). Now what I dont get is why he thinks that having a quick color claim will gleam anything on someones alignment here. What we have to consider is that town will likely not lie since if they get outed later, its giving scum a free lynch. Scum may have more of an incentive to lie, but again ever being outed would likely result in a lynch.

So I have zero idea what a green/not green claim would even mean to him, or to me. It can be WIFOMed to anything really (presuming BH does not know where their target came from in which case telling truth is mandatory regardless of alignment). What it mostly accomplishes is letting scum know who can be killed and who can not.

~~

While I actually do not think these two work well together, independently they both look somewhat scummy. If I am looking for the lynch that I think is slightly more likely to hit scum, it would be TDC (even though its about 60-40 to me). However a LG lynch is much much more informative at this point, given ties to quite a few more people.

[LlamaFluff]

What would Gurgi coming up town tell you?

You scum, spy is slight scum, DDD is slight scum, Fl gets more town points. LG town is harder to make connections on though as compared to...

What would Gurgi coming up scum tell you (other than apparently indicating I'm town because we don't "work well together")?

You are town (that big confusing exchange), DDD is town (constant goading of others to join wagon while not being actively presued), FL is town (did some of that same thing Nuwen did of claiming is null read), Nuwen leans town (exchange over color claim), Batt is scum (reading early LG seems like a Batt vote should of appeared but never did).

Delighted that you'd prefer I didn't post at all instead of posting just "speculation".

I really dislike open/semi-open for the most part (vanilla ones are fine). I do not like complicated role games, I do not like heavy PR games. There seems to be more time spent on setup instead of scumhunting. Its not fun for me, I lose intrest, I lurk and play poorly. Im not at all going to say that I was an active part of the early game or tried to be. If you want to speculate, fine, im just not joining you. What I have a problem with is when someone is going to only speculate and ignore the "finding mafia" part of "mafia", which is what you continue to do.

[LlamaFluff]

Why so sure that one of Gurgi and me must be scum? Seems to be more than just thinking we're scummy individually, but rather something that stems from the discussion we had?

I can cite reasons that I think that each of you are scummy individually, so its not based off the conversation that I think one of you has to be scum. Its more off the conversation that I think that you cant be scum together. In absence of the conversation I would have each of you down as scum.

I was not suggesting that you post more speculation, I was suggesting that you would be less suspicious of me if I didn't post at all (see the lurkers that don't phase you one bit).

Zazie I have seen lurk a few times as town, Elmo is on V/LA and the one time I played with him it was a very slow moving game and he was town. Everyone else is posting I think. Its part of that you were active and actually keeping up with the game, but still never commented on anything past speculation that was really bothering me.

That said, if you hate this so much, you probably should've included pj and all other mods who announced games you were not going to like on the "not-want" list.

I had about half on the "do not" list, I just apparently missed a few. Im not going to replace out of anything, but I just have a large preference for closed games as opposed to open ones. I have much more fun in them, and play much better.

[LlamaFluff]

I feel like I've gone over this every page for the last five. Could you guys explain to me what I need to expand on? What 'trap' are you both talking about? I was

trying to get honesty out of people before they woke up

, where was the trap? I'm really quite annoyed that people are angry at me for trying to get this game

going

somewhere. You're all happy to criticise people doing nothing, but seem to view wagons you disagree with as worse.

What was the possible benifit of a color claim? I see absolutely none that can not be twisted into WIFOM. I just dont see the game "going somewhere" good with anyone color claiming. All I see is a new arguement springing up over what color scum would of claimed.

The bolded is what in my book is the definition on a trap, trying to catch someone offguard into something scummy/contridiction.

I guess just lay out your exact thought process of what you thought a complete or partial color claim would accomplish for the town.

[LlamaFluff]

If I understand right this is what you were talking about

I was pushing for a colour-claim before a Bellhop could claim so that the scum wouldn't alter their claim to fit with the Bellhop's colour. When the Bellhop claimed, that kind of became moot. Since no one was saying anything about it, I figured if I could push it really quickly and get it through, we might just get real claims from people.

This is basically you saying that you wanted a color claim so scum would have to fit their claim to a color later, instead of having both freedoms. I still however fail to see how this small advantage outweighs the fact that if a complete claim went through, that scum would know everyones location.

Im not sure if im just missing something here or what, but the cons seem to outweigh the pros by a whole lot.

[LlamaFluff]

If I understand right this is what you were talking about

I was pushing for a colour-claim before a Bellhop could claim so that the scum wouldn't alter their claim to fit with the Bellhop's colour. When the Bellhop claimed, that kind of became moot. Since no one was saying anything about it, I figured if I could push it really quickly and get it through, we might just get real claims from people.

This is basically you saying that you wanted a color claim so scum would have to fit their claim to a color later, instead of having both freedoms. I still however fail to see how this small advantage outweighs the fact that if a complete claim went through, that scum would know everyones location.

Im not sure if im just missing something here or what, but the cons seem to outweigh the pros by a whole lot.

So, if someone claimed green now, would you assume they were locked in for tonight? Tomorrow night? The night after that? It destroys the possibility to actually account for where people are.

I would assume that. If scum claim green they are really restricting themselves, and if there is a role that can pick up color/movement, its suicidal.

Lets say we mass color claimed and had six green, all other floors at two each. Then what? Any scum fakeclaiming or on green are or claim to of been RBed. Any scum not on green can claim whatever. Scum knows who they can kill.

Even if we had even spread claim, I dont get how its an advantage. One of the best things going for us right now is scum dont know who they can kill at night. If we color claim, any ability to see who is where to limit scum movement is overshadowed by the fact that scum never need to be afraid of having a kill stopped by a locked out floor. They can make the optimal move each night from that point on.

What does this exactly force scum to do that outweighs telling the scum where everyone is?

[LlamaFluff]

If the scum have some role that is immune to such roles?

Immune to what?

[LlamaFluff]

I can cite reasons that I think that each of you are scummy individually, so its not based off the conversation that I think one of you has to be scum. Its more off the conversation that I think that you cant be scum together. In absence of the conversation I would have each of you down as scum.

So basically both of us are sooo scummy that it

pains

you that one of must be town (and still plays

this

badly) and that's why the other is still scum if one turns up town?

So you are saying that you have never had a game where player A and B are both scummy, but you dont think they work together?

Its part of that you were active and actually keeping up with the game, but still never commented on anything past speculation that was really bothering me.

Yes, that's my point. In terms of your suspicion, it would be better for me to post very sporadically. I disagree that that'd be the better course of action, though. Arguably, if a suboptimal course of action lessens your suspicion, something's off.

Kind of yeah. If you are going to bring up the other lurker arguement thing though, Zazie (although very recently) and Elmo both have done something along the lines of commenting on the DDD, or at least expressing some opinions on alignments at this point.

page 16, so who is scummy?

[LlamaFluff]

Immune to what?

a role that can pick up color/movement

This still doesnt mean that exposing where the town is to the scum will in some way trap scum or protect town that I can see.

[LlamaFluff]

I can cite reasons that I think that each of you are scummy individually, so its not based off the conversation that I think one of you has to be scum. Its more off the conversation that I think that you cant be scum together. In absence of the conversation I would have each of you down as scum.

So basically both of us are sooo scummy that it

pains

you that one of must be town (and still plays

this

badly) and that's why the other is still scum if one turns up town?

So you are saying that you have never had a game where player A and B are both scummy, but you dont think they work together?

Not that I remember, barring setup constraints.
I remember once claiming that of two townies, exactly one had to be scum. But I was scum myself in that game. It might be that this makes more sceptic of your opinion than I should be.
Point is, I understand why you think we are not scum together. I don't understand how you could be sure enough of either of our scumminess to set up chain lynches on us, while still thinking one of us is town, though.

Maybe im overselling this a bit then. You two are my one two suspects at this point. If I had to day vig next post, it would be one of you. If one of you flipped town, I would follow up pushing the next player, but im not going to blindly push them, or would do an immediate day kill, or anything like that.

I get the feeling that im failing to explain this right, but if I have a 1, 2 that dont work together and I find one to be town, im going to persue my other pick.

Yes, that's my point. In terms of your suspicion, it would be better for me to post very sporadically. I disagree that that'd be the better course of action, though. Arguably, if a suboptimal course of action lessens your suspicion, something's off.

Kind of yeah. If you are going to bring up the other lurker arguement thing though, Zazie (although very recently) and Elmo both have done something along the lines of commenting on the DDD, or at least expressing some opinions on alignments at this point.

Elmo hasn't commented on the DDD wagon at all.
Zazie has "explained" her random vote on DDD, which is hardly a comment either.

I'm not even sure what you mean with DDD wagon, seeing how he has just one vote, the aforementioned RVS vote by Zazie.

Elmo mentioned him a little in his iso-4 seeming to give DDD a slight town read through my interpetation. Zazie has done less, just talking about reasoning behind the random vote which im hoping gets followed up fairly soon.

The DDD wagon was the early random wagon we had, it no longer is really existant at this point in the game, although I thought he still had two votes.

[LlamaFluff]

Immune to what?

a role that can pick up color/movement

This still doesnt mean that exposing where the town is to the scum will in some way trap scum or protect town that I can see.

Why do you think it's alright to say my idea is terrible because a role might be around, but it's not alright for me to rebutt with another role?

What role?

Lets say town has this magic role that lets them see what floor someone is on. We massclaim color, scum risks getting caught, scum knows who can and cant be killed. I would be willing to take that risk as scum, and probably just claim my real color.

If such roles do exist that stand a small chance of nailing fakecolorclaiming scum, I still think it fails in comparison to scum knowing exactly who is off limits, and who they can take a shot at.

[LlamaFluff]

I get the feeling that im failing to explain this right, but if I have a 1, 2 that dont work together and I find one to be town, im going to persue my other pick.

I got this impression that you want to chain lynch us, by how you explicitly mentioned I would be scum if Gurgi came up town.
Surely if I'd be just your next person to look at, there's no reason why you'd put me into the list of people incriminated by Gurgi flipping town.

That was there as a "The flip would not change my inital read on you" statement.

The DDD wagon was the early random wagon we had, it no longer is really existant at this point in the game, although I thought he still had two votes

You mean the wagon that rolled because he had no spaces in his name? I really don't see how anything about that wagon was worth mentioning. And I think I even said something similar back then.

The reaction of Batt to it was something that came from it that I thought was kind of interesting. A random wagon in its own terms is not worth much, but a vote and two FoSs of players on the wagon certaintly is to me.

(see that I avoided teh question too)

[LlamaFluff]

(see that I avoided teh question too)

Come again?

You know... the question

Immune to what?

a role that can pick up color/movement

This still doesnt mean that exposing where the town is to the scum will in some way trap scum or protect town that I can see.

Why do you think it's alright to say my idea is terrible because a role might be around, but it's not alright for me to rebutt with another role?

What role?

Lets say town has this magic role that lets them see what floor someone is on. We massclaim color, scum risks getting caught, scum knows who can and cant be killed. I would be willing to take that risk as scum, and probably just claim my real color.

If such roles do exist that stand a small chance of nailing fakecolorclaiming scum, I still think it fails in comparison to scum knowing exactly who is off limits, and who they can take a shot at.

..And then I said, what if there's a role that's immune to this, not to mention that the checker might be locked down, or the checkee might.

I still say a color claim will hurt the town in almost every concievable situation. The lockdown situations above actually show more scenarios that any benifit of a color claim goes away.

[LlamaFluff]

LlamaFluff, what do you think of Zazie?

Kind of an acceptable deadline lynch, but I have problems with lynching zazie due to lurking. The two times I have gone after him for it he was town, although I dont think I have ever seen zazie-scum.

Practically everyone else is having the one argument with me twice or more.

Sorry for that. I tend to get a better handle on what is going on if im in a conversation with someone then if I read it as it happens, or even worse if I read it later.

[LlamaFluff]

So I just realized we have about five days untill deadline.

There are a whole lot of people really not giving hardcore suspicions at this point in the game which is kind of concerning, especially with the votes spread as thin as they currently are.

I guess I will avoid asking the question to TDC as to not continue to beat a dead horse for the time being. Maybe also because im starting to waiver on his alignment a bit too after trying to scrounge up stuff on more players. While zero is still less then almost nothing, almost nothing isnt that much.

So, can I get some clear suspicions from people I cant recall a case on who they are voting from off the top of my head (Batt, Elmo, LG, Spy, Zazie, Patrick). Also can GR and DDD explain if the push on zazie is a lurker lynch, or something else. Im going to try and slog through the whole debate thing again and see if I cant pick anything up.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama, any particular reason you're alone on your wagon rather than getting on a larger one?

Dont feel quite comfortable enough with my grasp of where most people are to wagon hop right now. Thats what my questions attempt to reread during this last hour or so at the office will hopefully accomplish. Im gone this weekend and with an impending deadline I need to get comfortable fast.

With TDC im starting to waiver a bit just due to a step back, he is kind of reacting like I do as town when I feel im getting attacked for weak things, which is getting a mix of indignant and flustered, so it kind of is making me have some second thoughts. With you hell I dunno. The fact that I still dont entirely get why you suggested what you did when it seems based on hypotheticals really sets me off, as understanding someone quickly and the first time I see as a town tell. At the same time though basing an entire case on "I dont understand this" seems to be a bit of an overstep.

More or less its examine my weak gut reads + look at other pushed cases for me right now, in an attempt to get a grip on what is happening, instead of kind of meandering around when there is not time to do so.

[LlamaFluff]

I voted him as most players were joking around during the RVS. So what better way to get out of the RVS with a good healthy bandwagon. As there hadn't been anything scummy yet, I went with the bandwagon of a player who at least had shown anti-town behaviour.

So was the vote random or serious?

We deal with FL later, her role offers too many town advantages to waste time on her right now, regardless of alignment.

So what are you treating this claim as? Miller where if she is scummy you lynch? Policy lynch on day X? Regardless of alignment its a role we can control, forceably. I do not understand what you are trying to suggest the right move here really is.

@Elmo - You sig says V/LA ended yesterday. Thoughts?

[LlamaFluff]

Is there something scummier about Gurgi suggesting a sub-optimal strategy than Nuwen suggesting a sub-optimal strategy?

To me its that Nuwens idea has a chance at working, albiet a long shot (we would need good accuraccy), it can work in the end. I just dont think it has a great shot of doing so. While chances of it working are directly dependent on our ability to scumhunt, or moreso FLs ability, there is no 'horrible downside' to it. We basically are playing a JK and targeting who we think is scum and not town. If we lynch scum, it might even be an optimal move. I do not think its the best move, but its not a bad one.

I actually see Nuwens (and others) subtle pushing against FL as scummier then the suggestion of moving scummy players to green.

LGs I just see as much more of a detrement to the town, since scum know the complete setup. They dont know who can be killed at night, if we had a color claim, they now know exactly where everyone is and can plan moves accordingly.

Fun time question that Patrick probably should ask: Why are we lynching ZazieR and not Elmo?

I would actually go for an Elmo lynch before a Zazie lynch at deadline. I have had multiple bad experiences lynching zazie for being a lurker, although I can not remember a game with him where he was scum. I can point to two games where he did disappear (but not get replaced) though as town.

[LlamaFluff]

(I don't think my stance on DDD was bad, although maybe I didn't express it well because it was late.)

Can you express it better now then?

[LlamaFluff]

As an aside: I'm going to be ultra-pissed if we don't get an actual majority lynch. Seriously angry. As in if someone is awesome enough to not help push a real wagon as we get close or, god forbid, not be voting I will vote for them every day I'm alive.

I don't understand why this matters. Is there a huge difference between a lynch wagon of 4 votes, and a lynch wagon of 7 votes where the last 3 votes are just people piling on for the purpose of achieving a lynch?

Really? I can think of a few reasons why actually getting a majority lynch, even in face of a deadline, is better then one that just is forced at deadline.

On that note

unvote
Vote Elmo

I dont expect to have much if any access untill sometime monday, and I know deadline is eminent so am going to do this now. Should be able to get something in today at work explaining my choice, but no promises.

[LlamaFluff]

@LF: Well, generally if a scumbag's getting wagoned, their buddies tend to try and start a wagon on someone else, especially early on when wagons don't need much to get started, but no-one really seemed interested in trying. (My reasoning here is kinda like JDodge's in Open 55.) But for example, if Zaz and Danny happen to be scum (with 3 scum total), the single leftover mafioso isn't going to have much influence on the voting patterns. So the more it looks like no-one would be wagoning regardless of alignment, the harder it is (or less reliable) to tell why scum aren't wagoning.

So DDD is town because lack of a different wagon appeared when it was dancing the line between random and semi-random?

If the majority of people can get reads, then you certainly can.

Why? That's a pretty bizarre statement.

Not really. If there are people accusing people of being scum, there is enough information present for a read out there. There may not be enough for you to go "if im a doctor im protecting them" or enough to case a vote of your own, but there is information out there.

Even if you have weak reads, especially at a time like this you need to put them out and at least attempt to explain them. I do not buy that your scum list is neutral-everyone, and thats it.

[LlamaFluff]

unvote

Goat points are good points.

Im interested in hearing why Batt went with Elmo over Zazie as well.

Not going to put a vote on Zazie since this is the last time I expect to be able to post untill Sunday night and putting someone at L-1 and not being around to move a vote if needed is not something im comfortable with.

For all practical purposes though I am voting zazie. I just would rather be around for a claim instead of having my vote sit there.

Zazie needs to claim or die at this point, I will be back Sunday night with intentions of putting my vote on him. He is posting away in another game at this point. as well.

[LlamaFluff]

LlamaFluff, I don't think you got round to explaining your vote for me..?

Kind of just that the one post that you made early that did seem to be somewhat of an anylasis post really was confusing on a close read, the thought process just seemed a bit convoluted.

It was between someone who was lurking which from my experience is a town tell, and someone who was V/LA and made a post that never came to a solid conclusion and was a bit confusing.

[LlamaFluff]

Not going to hammer zazie just because I would like to see something from him before he gets deadline lynched in about 8 hours.

Anyways, not much happened this weekend it seems. It would be nice to hear a bit from LG as why he wants me lynched apart from "what others said" which seems to boil down to "avoidance of setup discussion".

[LlamaFluff]

LF: It boils down to you complaining but not actually scumhunting at the time. If you actually think my suspicion is weak, you wouldn't have to fram it negatively in the question.

I tend to stick to a 'crush any and all suspicion on sight' type defensiveness. It works out pretty well.

Just was trying to see if there was anything new there or if it was just a repition of points that have already been addressed.

[LlamaFluff]

Feh, good cover. [/sarcasm]

meh, it works. Only been lynched as town once doing it, and that was mostly due to a massively suboptimal play from scum 'confirming' them

[LlamaFluff]

I'm sure you've played many many games. That sort of behaviour shuts me out. You actively repelling me is not conducive to scumhunting. Stop it.

This makes no sense. If he's town, shutting you out from pressuring him IS conducive to scum hunting, because the idea of scum hunting is to pressure scum, not town.

Basically that

If I dont get lynched, it increases chances of a scum lynch. A critical part of playing town is not getting lynched, I even view having to claim outside of a massclaim situation a sign that I have not played a good game.

Im not going to ignore a case against me, but im going to stop it as quickly as possible.

[LlamaFluff]

Come on, it's fine for your

personal

record, but it screws everyone else.

If you have got questions, comments, quotes, anything like that im fine with responding to them. Im going to try to pick apart anything you have against me early on though, instead of just letting a weak case sit on me. You really have not been asking me a whole lot of questions about what you are pressuring me about. It seems to be more of a statement then anything else, and I would like to get to the bottom of it ASAP.

[LlamaFluff]

TDC and LLama have no votes up.

We've got a lot of stragglers that I dont like regardless of Zaz's flip.

Ive said a few times that for practical purposes im voting zazie. I just didnt want to kill all lines of conversation from him, as no majority is actually needed. If he can get something in before deadline, its benificial regardless of alignment.

[LlamaFluff]

You purposely framing what I say negatively is not shutting down my case, it's petty. Trying to shut me up is good for you regardless of your alignment, but it stops me from getting a read on you. People I can't read, I lynch. I am not going to stop.

If you are not going to add anything that hasnt been covered, or even bring those things up really, im going to be somewhat petty about it. If you have new things to talk about, or want to bring up old points im fine with it. Just kind of doing the hand wave "yeah that stuff" thing, is not going to be something I let happen.

[LlamaFluff]

Hey all

I got back from visiting friends back at school over the weekend, only to find that friday night there was a fire at my apartment. Right now I can see that my place has no roof on it, and I am not allowed back inside to see what I have lost if anything. I fear that all I own right now is this laptop and few changes of clothes, but hope that its more.

I am living in a hotel right now, and later in the week they are going to try and be moving me to a new apartment that they own. Im going to be trying to take a few days off work to try and get situated with what is going on, and hope that most of my belonging still exist. There is internet in my hotel, so I do have that for now so I should have a way to get to this game, but I have no idea how much time I am really going to be able to commit.

There will be a point where I will likely have no reliable access for a few days once I get a new place, so if the majority of players (or the mod) think that it will be better I will replace out. In the event that there is a replacement that is lined up already, it may be better if they replace in just to avoid the hassle. I can try and keep up the best I can, either way though.

[LlamaFluff]

Same. but nonetheless,

Vote: LlamaFluff

. Not voting at the end of the day is scummy.

Told you more then once that I did not want to hammer when we were lurker lynching when a majority was not needed. Anything zazie would of said could of been helpful.

On that note I talked to PJ and I am going to replace out due to what is going on.

Have fun all

[LlamaFluff]

So. I should be getting access back in a week, maybe on the weekend if im lucky. If I havent gotten replaced by then I will be back and posting reguarly. Untill then I will try and sneak in what I can at work, but still am going to stay 'on the replace list' untill then, since coming back with three days untill deadline doesnt sound great.

Also its come to my attention that Batt is very likely town. It also would be nice to hear from LG since I addressed what he brought up but its been ignored with no vote movement.

[LlamaFluff]

I should have full access back monday, so if no one has replaced me by then I will no longer need replacement. Will try and do a little read and catchup in the meantime at work, as if I get back two days to deadline I want to at least be able to contribute immediately

[LlamaFluff]

Also its come to my attention that Batt is very likely town. It also would be nice to hear from LG since I addressed what he brought up but its been ignored with no vote movement.

Call me a cynic, but I'm going to need more than that for me to believe you.

In part its that I liked whay he did at the end of the day yesterday, also I got a gut read when I was rereading during the night before I realized that I would need to be replaced. His early play today also says gut town to me, im not a fan of speculation, but I see this coming from town more then scum.

@TDC - So who is scum? Yes im asking again but I still have no idea on you.

Actually if everyone can answer that in a line or two it would be nice.

[LlamaFluff]

On a scale from one to ten (one being least, ten being most) how innapropriate would it be to make a Nuwen joke about a vodka and sleeping pills cocktail?

0

New topic, anything apart from the whole speculation thing of why you suspect my town read here?

[LlamaFluff]

DDD, I don't understand why you don't think he's scum. A townie should be trying to convince people off their wagon, and if I think the person attacking me is town, even more so. With ten alive, if just one townie is on another townie's wagon, that leaves the last six (or less?) to decide unanimously on a scum wagon (I'm going to make a leap and say that the scum aren't going to bus if they don't have to). The scum can afford to have a townie on them, they just need to stop a wagon from growing. In Llama's defenses he doesn't care at all about what I think, he cares what the group thinks. That's not a terribly hard connection to make. Now, I can't think of any reason at all for a townie to be content while someone's voting them.

You already basically have said it a few times. You have given your reasons, I have said why I think they are pretty weak reasons. If you really want to keep going back and forth for the rest of the game with the whole "yeah-huh, nuh-uh" thing, sure I will. When we both have laid out our points though, nothing I can do will really change stuff except finding a magic rewording of the exact same thing, or presenting an alternative lynch.

I really have had zero time to make a magic rewording, and I think its very unhelpful to try, unless you seriously expect to be lynched. Otherwise making an alternative is a better path to take, which I intend to do now that I have more time.

The circular argument to me seriously is distracting to have to deal with as town, and it throws me off as it tends to draw most arguments to it in the end, and eventually even starts distracting from other wagons, so im not going to get into it with you. I have done enough to defend against what has been put out without being lynched, and am content with that.

TDC: Who do you suspect. After all this defense from you, I haven't seen you give an alternative.

Basically this

Vote TDC

For that matter, who is town? I really have no good idea about where you stand at all. Two days untill deadline of D2 is way to far into the game to have that big of a question mark by anyone.

[LlamaFluff]

Also I agree with LG that the vote from DDD on him is kind of poor

[LlamaFluff]

I think I'm obligated to

Curiously, Fluff doesn't seem to be bothered by your lack of suspicion as much as he was by mine.

Two days untill deadline of D2 is way to far into the game to have that big of a question mark by anyone.

..?

Im somewhat bias given that im stubborn when I get an early feeling an nothing happens to change it, but you have done some things recently that at least involve a vote.

Falling back on a nuwen vote is something im completely fine with though. Search is back (yay) and there have been quite a few posts from her in other topics (both games and GD). Given that the mod claims he has prodded her, I would expect that it has been picked up.

Like most people im mostly working backwards with just finding town (FL and Batt, to a lesser extent DDD, LG and Elmo). Then I have the few gut ones that I cant find anything to back up... just annoying.

@mod

- I no longer need to be replaced.

[LlamaFluff]

A townie should be trying to convince people off their wagon

I'm sure you've played many many games. That sort of behaviour shuts me out. You actively repelling me is not conducive to scumhunting. Stop it.

What is the difference here. End of day 1 (quote 2) you tell Llama to stop trying to repel you off his wagon, and here you are calling him scummy for not trying to repel you off his wagon. Eh?

There

is

a difference between shutting me out, repelling me, and repelling me off his wagon. Repelling me is just ticking me off, shutting me out is preventing me from validating or changing my read. Trying to convince me off his wagon cannot be done while repelling me and shutting me out.

Seriously, what do you want here. You have brought stuff up, I responded to them and for whatever reason you are not convinced and dont really feel like responding to me further about things. If you want me to take what I said and reword it a dozen different ways, I will, but I dont think that it will accomplish anything except to distract people and create unneccissary noise. Its like people who continually turn on and off a burned out light, its not going to work and its kind of time consuming and annoying.

[LlamaFluff]

Im going to try and get all caught up with game tonight. When I had the replace request in I lost most of the interest I had in the game, so hopefully this can get it back.

lock green

in the meantime

[LlamaFluff]

A partial reread really didnt help too much. GR moved up my scum list for reasons I need to go look at closer over the next few days, and I am still thinking LG-TDC is a town-scum but am not sure which all that much. Im almost to the point where I think its one of GR-spy, one of TCD-LG, and one that im missing.

Im still just a little lost

[LlamaFluff]

A partial reread really didnt help too much. GR moved up my scum list for reasons I need to go look at closer over the next few days, and I am still thinking LG-TDC is a town-scum but am not sure which all that much. Im almost to the point where I think its one of GR-spy, one of TCD-LG, and one that im missing.

I assume LG-me is still because we're both soooo scummy but can't be scum together?

You are actually both just bugging me right now. I still dont think I have seen much concrete from you in the suspicion game, or at least less then I would expect at this point in the game. Something about how LG is playing though is sort of reminding me of how I used to play as scum, picking someone and pushing them enough to appear to be scumhunting, but not enough to get them lynched and take heat for it.

But what's with GR and SpyreX? Why can't they have the same alignment?

Gut is telling me they arent scum together, but also that they are not both town. I would expect both scum before both town. I thought GR was saying spy was scummy earlier today, which apparently he didnt, so I could see that pairing actually existing. Maybe I want to see it exist because it supplements my town reads somewhat.

[LlamaFluff]

wherefore art thou, anyhow?

Shall I listen more, or shall I speak at this?

Yeh I guess I will speak... mostly im still just trying to get back into this game which isnt going all that well. Whats even more annoying is that I think I have scum down to 'must be in these few'... but keep second guessing myself due to pieces not quite fitting, and cant do much more then put up a deconstructive proof on why everyone else is town, which never seems to work out too well since last time I did that (spyrexs game) everyone just went ahead and lynched them while calling me scummy for defending and targeting them the night before.

So now im trying to see if I can put together something that will get people lynched on evidence on them as opposed to having a town read on the rest of the game, and actually make it sound non-contrived or anything along that nature. So yeah. Lots o fun right now for me. Kind of at the point where I am trying to figure out the area that as the highest chance of success for a scum lynch.

I am slightly leading to TDC, but that would eliminate a GR-Spy pairing in my eyes at the same time, but it would highly increase a TDC-GR or TDC-Spy pairing. If thats true though who is the last one since I would doubt LG is scum then which means a town read is wrong and I just am running in circles in my mind right now about what the right thing to do is. Maybe something like TDC-Spy-DDD is what we are looking at right now... which may be blah blah blah I need to read a few people over again to try and blow away some of this fog.

[LlamaFluff]

LF: Why did I move up on your scum list? I am interested in hearing those reasons.

Because im sure enough that Batt and Elmo are town to put them in that list, LG-TCD has scum but arent partners, Spy and you are bugging me quite a bit on more gut reasoning/PoE. DDD leans town, but not as near town as Batt and Elmo, leaning me to something like a (one of LG-TDC)/(two of Spy, GR, DDD)

[LlamaFluff]

Why is the LF wagon only emerging now?

Cause its easy. If I have it right, the majority of the case on me is "not scumhunting", which can easily, if not moreso, be applied to TDC. At the same time, people are saying "not playing to meta" which is true I will admit, its rare that I cant get into a game at all and lurk (I have one game like this as town, and one as scum where everything stalled out). However, not really doing much is playing against my scum meta too, possibly even moreso then town meta where at times when I get too flustered, confused, etc I take a temporary backseat while trying to figure things out.

Anyways, we are four days to deadline right now, and iIt still doesnt make sense to me without someone (Batt/Elmo) being a wrong read or bussing unless TDC is town.

[LlamaFluff]

Adding a large dollop of meta also gives us a sad, sad face.

People base an attack on me off meta, and I will defend the same way.

Im just a little confused right now that unless its GR-TDC-DDD something I have down is very wrong, or there is some unnecessary bussing going on.

I cant get over that TDC just looks scummy to me on a whole, but at the same time, from my perspective I am basically staking the game on that read, which is not something I am even vaugely comfortable with right now.

On other things though... we have three or four players on green right now, which is something that is needed to be taken advantage of. If we can get that number to four/five, we actually might be able to stop all NKs (since if two max are off green no more kills can happen). I am actually wondering if a green/not green claim here would be a benifit since at the sacrafice of a color claim, we may be able to stop all kills for the remainder of the game. I dont see a very bad scenario since there dont appear to be any players who are deemed unanimous town, and most have a few dissenters.

Yeah I know that speculation, but its hunting too since if we move all scum to green its a big plus.

I think a TDC lynch might be the best at this point, since it will shed a decent ammount of light on quite a few players, and he still really has not done much in the aggression department, and the voting area of his scorecard is duboiusly blank.

So I need to think, chances are I will be voting TDC soon, in lieu of an apifany about something. I just dont like how I seem to be either deciding on a TDC-GR-DDD or significant bussing... ehhh

[LlamaFluff]

Fluff: When I come up town, what will that tell you about whom?
I'm assuming it would look good for GR and DDD seeing how you think we're the only possible scum team.
Who would've been bussing?

Right now I have (One of TDC-LG)/(Two of Spy-GR-DDD).

You being town looks really bad for LG and Spy to me. The only reason really I am hesitating on a Spy vote is that he opened the day voting you, which kind of caught me off guard for the most part. I expected the votes of GR and Spy to be reversed today.

You being scum looks good for LG and Spy at the same time, pushing GR and DDD to better looking lynches.

Now you town... that would suggest something along the lines of Spy-LG-?? I would lean DDD in the unknown just because he isnt doing much on the spy wagon, just sitting there taking up space, but I am not sure. If you are town im a whole lot less certain on my town reads of Batt and Elmo, which is what is concerning me for the msot part.

[LlamaFluff]

This is all well and good except for the fact I'd prefer to hit A scum and go from there. Conjecture is a tool of the enemy at this point - it's all moot if we dont start baggin trash soon.

If I can rule out some nonsensical pairings though, some might become more likely or doubtful, which in it own can lead to different trains of thought that have the possibility of picking up on a previously missed idea.

[LlamaFluff]

Im just a townie, not on green either.

I dont see a way out of being the lynch so...

dont just quicklynch TDC or anything like that tomorrow. Im not completely sold on him being scum which is the main reason I havent been going into a strong push for him. If he is town, doing that would basically seal the game for scum, which when calculating my confidence, is not a risk I am willing to take.

I do hold to that one of TDC and LG are almost certaintly scum, the same applies to Spy and GR. Chances are that Elmo and Batt are both town, FL is town as well. DDD I can see being scum here, and if a counterwagon at the last second shows up, I would almost prefer that one just for the information it would yeild, as there would of been opportunities for a TDC and DDD wagon, which is a low chance of being two town.

So tomorrow, please no quicklynching of TDC. Push yes, quicklynch... I think that could have disasterous ending. Make LG explain why he backed off me a whole lot better then he actually has. That is another big reason I have shyed from a TDC lynch, as that happening really makes no sense to me and its something to first figure out.

If I had to make a complete guess (which it is) we are looking at DDD-LG-GR. Now watch them all be town to complete my epic fail.

Vote DDD

I will put stuff up later.

[LlamaFluff]

So... its late and im tired, but a quick push on why we should do a quick little DDD shift to end this day.

The biggest theme of this game has been a slow buildup to a lynch of a lurkerish player due to an apathy bug that just about everyone has. Day one, it was Zazie/Elmo, day two it went to Nuwen with slight talks of others. Most people took stances at least on who was a preferable lynch and why.

DDD though actually completely ignored the end of day wagons. For the day one duel of Zazie/Elmo, the last time that either player was mentioned was back on page 15. At that point in the game, zazie had three votes, and elmo was voteless. The vote appears to of been for baseless pushing of a wagon, and for subsequent lurking. So in the final 10 pages of the day, DDD added absolutely nothing to the lynch, and never even commented on Elmo.

The next day in regards to the Nuwen wagon, it just shows up as "a better then no lynch" option. He specifically calls it not a bad lynch, but shows to real push for it, all well and good if there is a different wagon he wants to persue. The wagon of choice is the Batt one, which is based on... speculation of NKs. So again, he manages to avoid attaching himself to the deadline lynch as much as possible, while failing to provide sufficent reasoning to vote someone else. Most of the conversation went "Batt speculated, that scummy. No its not. Yes it is." So an arguement of opinion which regarding speculation is often set in stone for players.

DDD has done everything possible to avoid coming anywhere near the deadline lynches. This includes discussing a player not even remotely having a chance of being lynched D1, and sitting on a wagon that is going nowhere

[LlamaFluff]

It's not just that he isn't trying to save himself. He was actually suspicious of me for the whole fucking game and when we are the two competing wagons he starts a new one? It boggles the mind.

Its the best play for the town I think, just not the best play to keep me alive. The fact of the matter is very simple, if one of us gets lynched and flips town, the other will be lucky to not get lynched the next day. I am not confident enough in you flipping scum to base the game on it in a scenario where there is not a competing wagon that is not my own, which is what is happening.

It comes from a mix of reads on others, the big turn around from LG, and a lot of nagging suspicions.

All in all it makes sense for me to be lynched, I am a townie, I am not on green, I have connections to a lot of people. There will still be quite a few players off limits for the kill and unable to kill, another should be added to the mix tonight rendering at least half of the game unkillable, if not more, it just makes sense at this point for this to happen, and may be the best shot town has.

[LlamaFluff]

ZazieR wasn't a non-candidate. The point is that LF went for a non-candidate, not TDC. TDC did what you did, and I didn't get on him, SpyreX did.

Its self-preservation due to the fact that I am trying to wagon shift at the last minute. It is just not the best course of action if that was my ultimate goal is the point people are trying to make.

[LlamaFluff]

I think deadline has passed though...

Look at LG-TDC tomorrow, I still think that pairing has scum in it. Spy-GR still make me feel uneasy, but it nothing I can really put down a solid reason for. Batt is most town to me, if DDD or TDC is scum, it bump up elmo-scum chances, but Im still not sure on him.

So bah go town and whatnot

[LlamaFluff]

Well ok then... I think last time I have guarenteed access before deadline is about now. There is a small chance I can get another post in, but I think this is it.

Still stand by what I said before, if I get access near deadline I might change votes, but it would really only move under basically ideal wagon circumstances. Either way I think my lynch might be the best for town today. I am not a PR, I am not on green, and there are a whole lot of people attached to me