Perfectionist Mafia - Resultas

[Sanjay]

I'm going to leave my vote where it is right now because I don't see how I'll get another chance to put it there.

[Sanjay]

Aren't you just filled with regret that your vote can never go back to you?

What if you find out you are mafia later?!!

[Sanjay]

Wickedestjr, why did you give me the most boring question of everyone on your list?

[Sanjay]

Okay, actually maybe your question for nook was more boring.

[Sanjay]

One scum down, however many to go.

How do you know BC is scum? Is he your scumbuddy? How do you know that there are many scum? I don't know that we were told that.

Wickedestjr, were you joking here? "How do you know that there are many scum?" Really?

I feel like you are misrepresenting Lowell here. He didn't say there were many scum. To paraphrase him, he basically said that there was some number of scum.

Do you really think we need to be told specifically that there is some number of scum to act under that assumption?

If anything, Lowell could be accused of pretending not to have secret information. Your accusation is silly.

[Sanjay]

@ Saber. How are competing bandwagons useful for town? We should examine everyone as equally as possible instead of concentrating on

two random individuals

to avoid what could be an

inevitable mislynch

.

Unvote, Vote Saberwolf

Bolded added for emphasis.

Is it not true?

In regards to Lowell... I havent liked how Sanjay has answered Lowells question. But i like my vote on SW for now. (the other SW) jk.

I think its an apt question on Wicked's part. The game has hardly begun, it might be a slip on Lowell's part, it could be quite innocent. Is not something to consider so serious but enough to put a slight pressure on.

I didn't like that Wickedestjr's post had a serious tone but yet had a kind of silly accusation.

I felt like Wickedestjr was trying to create a slip by changing what Lowell said.

[Sanjay]

And I fully intend to answer Wickedestjr's question eventually. Answering "who do you have scum/town reads on" is basically all one does in scumhunting. I have no illusions that I'm going to dodge that question.

[Sanjay]

Actually, I take that back. I guess I am kind of dodging the question.

Knowing who I had reads on at the time of the question is a different matter than who I have reads on later.

So I'll give you an answer now.

[Sanjay]

I get somewhat of a town vibe from Mufasa. He seemed to quite easily put the third vote on the BloodCovenent wagon which seems like kind of a scary place for scum to tread. Plus I think his frustration with BloodCovenent seems townish to me. I am getting a town vibe on My Milked Eek for similar reasons.

BloodCovenent is of interest to me. He invites a wagon on himself and then casts huge suspicion on everyone that joins him. It's like he doesn't get his own joke. I guess that could have been his plan all along (be bait and see who bites), but it seems like bad town play. I know it is often wrong to equate bad town play with scumminess, but I do get a sort of scum vibe from BloodCovenent's play so far.

I had a scummy read on Wickedestjr but I accept his defense and now no longer do. I can see how he misread Lowell's post and, given that misreading, his actions make sense. I'll also answer this question here:

I didn't like that Wickedestjr's post had a serious tone but yet had a kind of silly accusation.

Why is that? I don't really think there is anything wrong with it. And to what extent did you not like it?

I didn't like it a lot. The idea that you might have been trying to create evidence against Lowell rather than find it was somewhat strong in my mind. Misrepresentation to me is a scumtell.

For now I guess I'm kind of neutral about Wickedestjr.

I found it a little bit suspicious that Snow White would bring up that she has never seen a RVS wagon on scum. I'm not quite sure about Snow White.

As I previously mentioned, I think Lowell might be going out of way to demonstrate that he doesn't know how many scum there are, which is a little scummy.

I'm comfortable leaving RVS right now, so I am going to

unvote: myself

and

vote: BloodCovenent

[Sanjay]

Thanks for the opinions!

However, I'm curious. Why would Mufasa's third vote make him look a bit pro-town but not the fourth or fifth votes on the wagon?

The fifth vote on the wagon was My Milked Eek, right? It did look pro-town to me. Putting a vote after BloodCovenent says "people who vote for me are scummy" is attention seeking.

Mufasa's vote looks pro-town to me because to me it reads like "weeeee, let's bandwagon" where as Lowell's reads more like "okay".

[Sanjay]

Could you elaborate on that FoS, saberwolf?

[Sanjay]

I actually double-checked to make sure your eeni-meen-minei-mo story checked out. I'm glad it did, because I don't really know exactly how I would handle the implications if it didn't.

But I do have some questions:

Why did you decide to place a random vote instead of a real one?

Why did you decide to randomize your random vote instead of come up with a joke reason?

[Sanjay]

Let's skip the RVS,

Vote: BloodCovenent.

the only post that can be used of BCs

Scummy in the fact that he self-voted, yet I've seen several town including myself do this. I don't like the fact that he wanted immediately out of the RVS, but then that's a topic most of mafiascum is split on.

BC hasn't posted very much to really analyzed, but I think there is more to being on his wagon than simple dislike of self-voters (in my experience self-voting is rather townish).

I'd like to hear more from BC about his subsequent posts, actually, because they are more why I am on the wagon to begin with.

Until that point, yes, I am okay being on the wagon.

My vote is staying because im infuriated.
Arrogance is scummy. I feel as though im being hunted and i dont expect that this early in the game from someone supposed to be town.

Also the way he placed his vote on me was scummy imho. Ill elaborate soon.

Could you explain your reasoning for considering arrogance a scumtell?

[Sanjay]

Snow White, how serious do you think the people who jumped on the BloodCovenent wagon were about their vote?

[Sanjay]

BloodCovenent, I think you are misunderstanding why I got a pro-town read on Mufasa. It's not because of his choo chooo post (though I found that post oddly endearing). It is because of this post.

That post also was the first to ask the question that pretty much sums up why I voted for you. I thought you were inviting a wagon on yourself to see how people react. It seemed kind of odd that you would then automatically turn around and cast suspicion on all the people that were helping you out.

Could you explain what exactly was your intention with the self-vote, if not to form a wagon?

Also, why exactly do you have a pro-town read on me, especially when you think I have this bogus town read on Mufasa?

[Sanjay]

@Sanjay

I thought you were inviting a wagon on yourself to see how people react. It seemed kind of odd that you would then automatically turn around and cast suspicion on all the people that were helping you out.

who did you think BC was going to point the finger at?

I thought the point of starting a bandwagon going is starting discussion. It seemed like at least Mufasa if not everyone on the wagon jumped on for that purpose.

I don't know why BC had to point the finger anywhere. And if he was going to, how much help is it to cast a FoS on all three of you?

I'm responding to a Snow White post here but I wouldn't mind BloodCovenent commenting as well.

[Sanjay]

Mufasa, would you mind explaining to me your justification for voting and keeping your vote on BloodCovenent?

[Sanjay]

Hi, Deuxieme Octopus. Welcome to the game!

Two questions:

1) Are you scum?
2) Can we call you anything for short?

Answering either in the affirmative could save us a lot of time.

[Sanjay]

I was just gonna call him SW.

[Sanjay]

There's several lurkers to choose from. Could you elaborate on why you chose SolmnJ over the others?

[Sanjay]

Oh gosh I had no idea.

dramonic, you just totally revolutionized the way I play Mafia.

[Sanjay]

Got the prod. I'll read up and post my reads and such either today or tomorrow.

[Sanjay]

Wow, Mufasa, if I could, I would daykill you for that post.

FoS: Mufasa.

You are FoSing Mufasa for a terrible post, yet keep your vote on Lowell for bad reasons. That doesn't seem right. Also, have you ever seen any of Lowell's games before?

Doesn't really sound like me, Wickedestjr. You sure you got your quote tags straight?

[Sanjay]

I want to apologize that a prod on me was necessary. I've wanted to do a big post involving everyone for a while, but that's a lot of work so I kind of put it off. I know this game has dragged and I take a lot of responsbility for that because I'm usually a pretty active player.

Mufasa

:

I didn't like these Mufasa posts:

Could someone justify for me why Snow white is a better lynch candidate than bloodcovenant in one sentence?

If I was to guess from post 162, I would assume Mufasa thought bloodcovenant was a better lynch candidate. It seems like an awkward way to phrase the question if he thought Snow White was a better candidate or he was undecided. If he was more undecided, why wouldn't he ask someone on both wagons? If he thought Snow White was more scummy, wouldn't a question about the BC wagon make more sense?

haha just for making that one sentence I might have to fos you haha just kidding.

But ya I agree that Snow White is more scummier because we have seen more from her we need more actions from bloodcovenant

It's a little ambiguous what Mufasa is saying here. As I understand it, he either:

A) He thinks Snow White is scummy because she made more posts

OR

B) Thinks that the only reason Snow White seems more scummy is because she has made more posts

If he meant A, I feel like that is slightly contradictory with the implication I was picking up from 162. Also, A doesn't really make much sense. If he meant B, that conflicts with post 170:

Whats wrong with being more talkative saberwolf it makes it so you dont have an easy reason to lynch me, but in all seriousness if BloodCovenant doesn't post today I am voting for Snow White

Why would you move your vote off someone because they didn't post? That just seems like an invitation for BC to lurk. And it doesn't make sense if Mufasa meant B. These posts feel like Mufasa was just trying to get a feel for his vote.

Incidentally, xRECKONERx, when I asked Mufasa why he was voting for BC in post 175, I was trying to get a feel for what exactly Mufasa was thinking when he made post 162. I thought I knew why Mufasa voted for BC, but he seemed pretty ready to move that vote, and I didn't really understand why.

If Mufasa had no reason to be voting BC and my question had him admit that, I don't really see the problem with that no matter what my read on BC is.

I'd still like Mufasa to answer the question. Mufasa, what was the basis for voting and keeping your vote on BC?

SolemnJ

:

SolemnJ has posted exactly nothing. Can't get much of a read based on three posts which is in itself a bit scummy, and I don't like that one of his posts came right after nook (of all people) called him out for not posting, but SolemnJ is pretty much a blank slate right now.

Looking forward to the replacement.

saberwolf

:

On my re-read, I was a little confused why saberwolf took his vote off Mufasa on page 3. He didn't seem to like Mufasa's reaction to the vote, and yet instead of turning pressure up he went after Snow White. saberwolf, could you explain more what you were thinking back here?

nook

:

Looking forward to the replacement, disappointed it is necessary.

xRECKONERx

:

Why do you feel asking for someone's justification for a vote constitutes defending? Is there a reason you didn't bring up post 96 as well?

BloodCovenent

:

I don't exactly understand BC's town read on me that he stated in this post and explained in this post:

I get a townish read from you somewhat off of gut read, and also your interactions between Wickedestjr. Although I disagree with what your are saying about mufasa, that doesn't mean you aren't trying. Where as others are not, imo. Its the same thing with my townish read on Saber, I feel as if Snow was correct in their spat, but I feel that saber is acting pro-town.

Could you explain why you felt my interactions with Wickedestjr made me look townish? I don't really see it. I was kind of being an ass.

DeathNote

:

DeathNote, why haven't you posted anything? A list of reads would be very nice.

Santos

:

Saying you need to do a Lowell reread seems a little strange to me, given that it is only two posts and nineteen words. I feel like you may be trying to inflate your pro-town contributions by calling it that.

What goes in to a Lowell reread?

Lowell

:

It seems like in his first post he might have been going out of his way to demonstrate he doesn't know how many scum there are. Since then, he's posted basically nothing.

EtherealCookie

:

EtherealCookie, how do you feel about your vote on saberwolf right now?

AlmightyBob

:

Could you explain what about saberwolf's argument was especially convincing to you here?

Also, to answer your question about how I would play as scum, my goal with almost any role is to play as much like I imagine a vanilla townie to play as possible. Just when I'm mafia my scumhunting would conveniently result in misinformation and misinterpretation.

Wickedestjr

:

Question for everyone: How do you play as scum?

I'm not scum in any of my completed games, but if I was scum, I'd probably just be more cautious.

This seems like a bit of a convenient answer for scum to make. It sort of gives you license to pull a "surely I must be town because I would be much more cautious as scum" defense whenever suspicion gets on you.

Could you elaborate on what ways you would be cautious?

Also, I'd be happy to wait until after DeathNote answers, but could you explain to me why you asked him about the specific people you did?

You have a neutral read on Lowell, a neutral/scum read on nook and a neutral/town read on SolemnJ. Could you explain where the difference is coming from?

dramonic

:

Looking forward to dramonic's promised reread of the thread.

My Milked Eek

:

How serious were you about the emoticon tell on Snow White?

Deuxieme Octopus

:

Do you have any strong reads besides the one on Snow White? Please share them. Did you actually expect the town to accept that elaboration was not necessary and just lynch her?

Snow White

:

I asked her why she felt arrogance was a scumtell and she told me [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 71#1901571]how it was anti-town[/b]. This is kind of dodging the question and I don't like it that much.

However, I am not getting as much of a scummy read from Snow White as I was before though. As far as I can understand, she is attacking saberwolf because she feels like his arguments against her are illogical. Despite what people say about OMGUSing, this seems like a townish reaction to me.

MrSuave

:

MrSuave has said he will post more and I'm looking forward to it.

I don't think that much of MrSuave random voting late because it is at least consistent with his other posts. He doesn't seem to be getting very strong reads from people.

[Sanjay]

Here's the broken link to Snow White.

Also,

Vote: Mufasa

[Sanjay]

So did you not care about Mufasa's reasons as long as his vote was on BC, or did you just assume he saw what you saw?

[Sanjay]

And does that assumption jive with post 170 to you?

[Sanjay]

Based on post 170, how eager do you think Mufasa was about his BC vote?

[Sanjay]

Snow White, your FoS on me is ridiculous.

How would:

I get somewhat of a town vibe from Mufasa...I think his frustration with BloodCovenent seems townish to me.

be in regard to

ya why not we all love to train choo chooo vote: Blood Covenent

Why would I, town or scum, try to put forth the idea that pretending to be a choo choo train is a sign of frustration? I was referring to this:

I dont know bloodcovenant might rip our heads off and uhm... yahh..

Why the fos when you self voted that gives me the warrant to auto vote you.

Whether my read of frustration was an accurate read or not, I really don't see how you think I was talking about post 6 and not post 23. Is your argument that I was trying to say that post 6 showed frustration but when I couldn't pull that off I lied and said I was talking about post 23 instead? That's ridiculous.

Part of my post WAS about post 6. The part you cut out:

I get somewhat of a town vibe from Mufasa.

He seemed to quite easily put the third vote on the BloodCovenent wagon which seems like kind of a scary place for scum to tread. Plus

I think his frustration with BloodCovenent seems townish to me.

Why did you cut that out? I feel like you selectively quoted me to make a bogus case and I don't understand why you would do that as town.

FoS: Snow White

[Sanjay]

Do you really think it was more likely I was talking about post 6 than post 23?

[Sanjay]

Are you aware of the theory that the third vote on a wagon is scum, Snow White?

[Sanjay]

Are you aware that bandwagoning is considered scummy as well?

[Sanjay]

I didn't mean to ignore your question. I was trying to answer it.

I guess in retrospect I didn't need to wait for you to answer what are basically rhetorical questions.

I guess the third vote was Lowell if you don't count BC. I was counting BC so I meant Mufasa.

I guess this is a little WIFOMy, but I just figured that given how people know that the third vote is a scummy vote, and given how people know that bandwagoning is bad, scum would be less likely to do it.

I'm not throwing out the third and fourth vote tell out the window. I think there are lots of reasons for scum to be in those positions, because scum have more interest to jump on somewhat established bandwagons. But I don't think the Random Vote Stage is a time where scum best interests are necessarily served by doing that.

Would you answer mine now? It was first, after all. Do you really think it makes more sense that I was talking about post 6 than post 23 when I was talking about Mufasa being frustrated with BC?

You have explained why you don't see frustration in post 23, but you haven't explained how you see frustration in post 6. I really don't understand how you think post 6 could possibly be the post I was talking about.

[Sanjay]

Huh, I start a lot of my sentences with "I guess".

[Sanjay]

Wickedestjr, I'm going to take you a bit out of order in answering your questions because it makes a little more sense to me. Do tell if I've taken you out of context:

Sanjay, what was the purpose of that big post you made? Did it have any unique purpose in comparison to your other posts, or was it just another post?

The big post had a few purposes. One, it was to present anything interesting I found on a reread. Two, it was to give everyone a reason to post and at the very least give everyone a question to answer. It wasn't as important for the more active players, but I figured I might as well not leave anyone out.

I'll admit that my question to My Milked Eek was borne more out of curiosity than scumhunting. The idea of emoticons as a tell is interesting to me and one I like to joke about.

This seems like a bit of a convenient answer for scum to make. It sort of gives you license to pull a "surely I must be town because I would be much more cautious as scum" defense whenever suspicion gets on you.

I have been/Still am waiting to get a scum role pm for a while, so if I got a scum role pm, I wouldn't get too fancy with strategic moves that I wouldn't make as town. I'd just try to put myself in the position of a townie and play the way I normally would, while trying to avoid the
anti-town looking things I do as town. I think I should have said that before. How serious was this quote? How much did you think that was my actual motivation?

I was having some trouble coming up with a question for you and I came up with this. I actually don't think I stand by what I said here anymore because now that I think about it, it seems like it would be much easier for scum just to be honest here and not jeopardize being caught in a lie.

So at the time I thought it could be your actual motivation, but now I'm thinking that even if you were scum it is a bit unlikely.

While I was writing up the post you made this post and there were some things I was more curious about based on it. But I saw no reason at the time not to leave in the other question.

You have a neutral read on Lowell, a neutral/scum read on nook and a neutral/town read on SolemnJ. Could you explain where the difference is coming from?

Lowell is a player that I have a lot of trouble getting a good/correct read on. He hardly posts anything, and even when he does post I have no clue what his allignment is, because he has done some really anti-town things that make you think he is obviously scum, but then he flips town.

nook is a player that hasn't posted any decent content and has voted a lurker. I just need a few more posts to reassure me that she is scum though. That is why it is almost neutral.

SolemnJ is a player that I don't think is scum, because there are other players that I think are more likely to fill in the slots. Also, I don't think SolemnJ would be acting as scummy to be scum. It doesn't change my read too much, but I felt like mentioning it.

Could you explain why voting for a lurker is scummy to you? Especially in the context of how nook did it.

Also, could you explain how other players acting scummy makes SolemnJ look not scummy?

Also, Vote: Mufasa

Why?

I felt like he was either trying to feel for what the easiest lynch was and vote for it or he was trying to give himself an excuse to move his vote off a scumbuddy. I also sort of hoped it would be some motivation for him to post.

I talked about why I thought Mufasa was scummy in post 282. Did you want me to expand on that or did you not see it?

[Sanjay]

Snow White: Could you explain what was the writing process behind post 312? You have some analysis but then at other points you just have statements summarizing what happened like "Dramonic introducing Sanjay to ISO.", "Confusion between Sanjay and SolemnJ" and "Meta of Snow White's AtE as town."

[Sanjay]

At Sanjay's 315. Okay.

UnFos

. I assumed Snow White had picked the right post. One question though: What is your definition of frustration?

What I meant by saying Mufasa was frustrated by BC is that it looked like Mufasa didn't like how BC was operating by calling for votes on himself and then not liking the results. I thought Mufasa was unhappy with the way BC was playing the game.

I thought it was townish because he wasn't backing down from BC's FoSes.

I think in retrospect frustration is probably the wrong way to describe it, because it kind of paints this picture of Mufasa seething at his keyboard at BC's ridiculousness, which is not what I thought. Probably "dislike" would be better.

I don't know what to make of Snow White's long apology for her mistake. Thoughts anyone?

Not knowing what to make of it was pretty much my reaction. (Sorry Snow White for kind of ignoring the post).

But there is some stuff here worth commenting on:

Oops. That may be a brain fart on my account. I was joting down notes as i went. So at first yes i probably did assume you meant post 6 until you cleared it later. I was thinking it was incredibly riddiculous scum slip if it was the one you were talking about. And i didnt correct my notes as i went on. i do hope you'll forgive me for that.

Ah. Lol. That is fair. You have your own train of thought and even though mine may not be on the same level i can respect it. Frankly it is speculation though as I think it is different however this time in regard to where scum fall on the wagon seeing as BC invited it upon himself. If anything i think my wagon atm deserves a seeing to but then again i'd say that as scum too. So its really up to the reader but i will fight tooth and nail if i have to, to stay alive.

No it made no sensefor you to be talking about post 6 in regards to Mufasa being frustrated i just thought you were being really really silly scum and was like "???" until i ead your later clarification. Which still leaves me a bit "???". Do you see how the interaction between Mufasa post 23 and DeathNote lessens the impact of Mufasa being frustrated?

I can see now you were talking about post 23. Just a brain fart on my account. I just seen what i had on paper and wrote it up without verifying what id wrote, i just wanted it up asap, but thank you for correcting me on that. That is my mistake and i will gladly admit it. I hope i stated this right because i seriously need to go to bed. If there are any other problems or clarification needed ill respond tomorrow.

Night!

On one hand:

Apology aside, I still think it was kind of scummy to misread me like that, because it seems like it could be motivated out of a desire to make people seem scummy instead of figuring out who is scummy. And I don't really like her explanation of how it happened. Is "really really silly scum" a scum archetype?

And I don't understand how if, from Snow White's perspective, it made no sense for me to be talking about post 6 and only a little sense for me to be talking about post 23, she assumed I was talking about post 6.

Why is it the first time I said I was talking about post 23 you called it backtracking and didn't believe me but this time I got a big apology?

On the other hand:

Town or scum, Snow White kind of goofed here. I think this kind of big apology is kind of how I expect town would act in this situation. I feel like scum would do more to minimize the mistake and I think if Snow White was actually trying to sneakily build up a case like this on me she would have apologized right away when called out on it, not debate the point.

Snow White, comment?

[Sanjay]

I have two completed games, both of them town: Newbie 825 and mini 814. I don't actually show up until page 16 in the second one and the game is over by page 19, so it's not really much of a show.

Wickedestjr, I think Snow White's mistake looks scummier than yours because I think Snow White's mistake took more misreading than yours.

Do you really think eight days away is a really pressing deadline? We have a lot of lurkers but we have plenty of active players too. I don't think there will be a lot of problem at this point getting a lynch in time. Aren't you worried about the deadline a little prematurely?

I think MME comes out as looking townish because of his emoticon work but I don't know if it necessarily makes Snow White look scummier. I don't think it is necessarily scummy that Snow White has had decreased emoticons since it was pointed out that she uses a lot of them, because that is going to happen when people call attention to some specific aspect of your writing.

FaerieLord, why do you feel like I am protecting Lowell in post 81? Do you not like the explanation I have already given (that I was more interested in Wickedestjr's misread than I was in the slip Wickedestjr supposedly found)?

Also, what is the basis for your town reads?

Also, welcome to the game!

[Sanjay]

almightybob, if you don't have any strong reads besides Mufasa, could you elaborate on what is so scummy about Mufasa to you?

[Sanjay]

So what kind of answer do you expect?

I asked Wickedestjr because I wanted to. I wanted to because I was more interested in Wickedestjr's misread than I was in the slip. Better?

[Sanjay]

Snow White, how much had you looked at and considered the sample role PMs at the start of the thread before making your claim?

[Sanjay]

BC, how does being a cop mesh with your seemingly attention seeking RVS behavior?

[Sanjay]

That doesn't really bother me about either claim. We all have the town detective PM available to us, so claiming the flavor to a "T" doesn't really do anything to help the claim.

BC's claim does seem kind of bogus though. I have no idea why it is so spartan. You'd think with all the attention BC has attracted he would have put more thought into the possibility of claiming.

[Sanjay]

We should probably wait for a votecount before we assume wacky shenanigans.

[Sanjay]

Maybe he wanted it to be a surprise!

[Sanjay]

And either way, the vig isn't going to be viggin' anymore.

[Sanjay]

Vote: Mufasa

[Sanjay]

Then the vig is cheating.

[Sanjay]

The first post of the game?

[Sanjay]

Wait, the second post.

[Sanjay]

Some people seem to be under the impression that this game is a lot more wacky than was my impression.

[Sanjay]

You hammered the person you thought was the town cop?

Tell me more.

[Sanjay]

I'm almost certain we have a vigilante. Unless I'm reading wrong, there's no other way to have two nightkills. And if we have a vigilante, they no longer have their powers because they definitely miskilled.

Therefore, there's no reason for our vigilante not to counterclaim. It's not like they have their powers any more.

If they claim, we lynch Mufasa (or perhaps them). If we lynched the wrong person we lynch the right person the next day.

Unless there is a counterclaim, we have to conclude, perhaps begrudgingly, Mufasa is town.

I really don't think it likely we got two kills by anything but a mafia and a vigilante. Firstly, I am operating under the assumption that the roles in the second post are the only roles we are dealing with. Secondly, three or four mafia + one serial killer seems like enough scum for the town to handle, and I can't really see what other role would have a nightkill.

Is there anything wrong with this reasoning?

[Sanjay]

Sanjay, what are your thoughts on a traitor being out there?

Well obviously, the stuff about not having to worry about there being a traitor because the godfather was killed is silly.

If there is a traitor, my top suspect would be Snow White. She had a surprisingly understanding attitude towards BC considering he had just counterclaimed her. I suppose it is consistent with her having a relatively townish read of BC for most of the game though.

Now that we have a flipped scum, that's the kind of thing we want to look for as far as traitors go. Players that scum don't seem to really be supporting, but are supporting scum.

So,

FoS: Snow White

.

[Sanjay]

I think you guys are seriously overthinking the flavor of the Starbuck kill. It could very well have just been a cute way for Max to say that the doctor was killed. On the first page, the Starbuck kill is presented exactly the same way as the My Milked Eek kill.

It seems pretty shaky to conclude that there is a mafia doctor based on that flavor, and even more shaky to conclude anything from the possibility that there is a mafia doctor

[Sanjay]

Considering the traitor has no NK, I'd say he's not the priority. As long as we kill all the scum, the best he can do is a tie <_<

Well, if we got to choose between lynching the traitor or lynching some other scum we would probably be better off picking the other scum, but I don't think it's going to happen so clearly.

Traitor tells might not be as important because we can't be sure there even is a traitor. But if there is a traitor the town has to lynch them to win, so they ARE important.

dramonic, do you think Mufasa could be uncounterclaimed and also scum?

[Sanjay]

dramonic, here is what I am thinking:

1) There is a vigilante.
2) The vigilante doesn't have any more powers and has no special reason not to counterclaim.

Do you have a problem with 1 or 2?

[Sanjay]

I'd also like to hear from other people grilling Mufasa about this.

Are you doing this in preparation for a possible counterclaim, or do you think Mufasa could be uncounterclaimed and scum?

If so, how?

[Sanjay]

The players alive that haven't posted since Mufasa claimed:

Remplacement of DeathNote, Santos, Deuxieme Octopus, MrSuave

[Sanjay]

No dude. Replacement of Deathnote was a person. You are a different person.

[Sanjay]

I want everyone on that list to post so we know whether or not Mufasa is counterclaimed or not.

Duh?

[Sanjay]

There was an implication which I guess I should have made more clear that if you are not on that list I am assuming you aren't counterclaiming Mufasa.

[Sanjay]

Could you clarify that question, FaerieLord?

[Sanjay]

I said it once, here:

Considering the traitor has no NK, I'd say he's not the priority. As long as we kill all the scum, the best he can do is a tie <_<

Well, if we got to choose between lynching

the traitor

or lynching some other scum we would probably be better off picking the other scum, but I don't think it's going to happen so clearly.

Traitor tells might not be as important because we can't be sure there even is a traitor. But if there is a traitor the town has to lynch them to win, so they ARE important.

dramonic, do you think Mufasa could be uncounterclaimed and also scum?

This is what you are having trouble with, FaerieLord?

[Sanjay]

drunk epiphanies ftw!

what was The point of Really showing us this, exactly? Are you trying to appear townie? I think you are just trying to appear townie without being pro-town. Tell me: do you think this is really gonna solve anything? OR what? please, let me know... im dying to hear.

Of this?
I think you were drunk?
And I think it's a rather horrible point considering we're waiting on these people to possibly CC. And considering we can prod these people, it actually seems like a pretty legit post.

I'd think you'd be more sympathetic to totally ridiculous cases against me.

[Sanjay]

I'll say.

[Sanjay]

Sposh, what do you think of FaerieLord's case against me? What about xRECKONERx's?

[Sanjay]

Actually, could the two of you explain your reads on me? That would be solid.

[Sanjay]

They target the person with the ability and they would also select the target

Um, doesn't this mean that all the redirector did was pick Mufasa and pick either Starbuck or My Milked Eek?

How does Mr Suave factor in to this at all?

What's up, Suave-wagon? Are you reading different posts than I am?

[Sanjay]

xRECKONERx, you missed the one part of manho's argument that I was actually interested. Why vote Mr. Suave AFTER the mod explained how the redirector role works?

Why skip that part?

Also, how does the godfather counterclaiming SW make her confirmed cop? I agree that it makes it unlikely that BloodCovenent knew SW's alignment as a fellow scumbuddy, but I don't know why you are dismissing my idea of SW as a mafia traitor.

Also, SW could be the serial killer, and I don't know why you are ruling that out.

[Sanjay]

I addressed this too, but if you look at it from a mathematical standpoint, the odds are greater for suave to be scum than anyone else, simply because he'd be one less person to account for in the redirecting odds.

I think it was a good call for scum to pick mufasa, because he did jokingly daykill me ITT, but could be percieved as a breadcrumb. So the fact that he was targetted could make sense from that. Whoever was targetted [i''m not sure how to show this but i'm certain its true] stands the most likely to be scum. It's like the pick a card game, but in reverse, where the wrong choice was shown, but we choose not to switch.

You'll have to show me the math, because I really don't see it.

[Sanjay]

There's no special reason to believe that SW is the serial killer, though "it's a stretch to say that we ran up the SK and the mafia on the first day, and both of them claimed cop" is not a reason why SW is unlikely to be the serial killer. I am fine inferring from BC's claim that BC did not consider SW a scumbuddy. But if your argument is "no way the town is this lucky" then that doesn't hold any sway with me.

There IS a special reason to believe SW could be the mafia traitor though. Her reaction to the BC claim was weird. If you were a cop and you were counterclaimed, would your first instinct be "Oh, I guess there are two cops?"

I agree it's probably not the greatest plan in the world to lynch the uncounterclaimed cop today, but she's far from confirmed.

[Sanjay]

manho, are you arguing that BC did not read SW's claim before making his own? I find that very implausible.

[Sanjay]

Snowwhite claimed cop I think... what was her result from last night?

@Saber. I said i got no results. This being because i

delibrately took no action last night.

I was fully expecting to be roleblocked.

You sound as if your honestly expecting results with a potential roleblocker in the house do you seriously think i would get results?

See post I said i had planned to investigate Wicked pre being outted. I at no point said i had changed my mind on carrying out an investigation and hoped a roleblocker would target me. Thus simply stating "no result" today.

I do hope this explains my actions (or thereof lack of) last night.

Is it like mafia redirector would target Mufasa and (MME or starbuck)?

Yes.

[Sanjay]

FaerieLord, did you ever clarify what posts of mine you saw that showed either:

1) An inappropriate desire to get the traitor lynched (I have no idea what this would even be a tell for, by the way).
2) Evidence of me being certain that there was a traitor.

[Sanjay]

I think this thread needs a re-read. A lot of the posts have been about what's happened in the last five pages, and that seems kind of silly for a 35 page thread.

[Sanjay]

Has anyone actually made a case against Suave or are we just lynching him for laughs?

[Sanjay]

Sarcasm, Reck?

[Sanjay]

I'm crazy skeptical about Snow White, but I agree with saberwolf.

[Sanjay]

I agree that the deadline has kind of snuck up on us, but I think it is totally off to declare that it is down to Suave and Snow White, especially since:

A) There are good strategic reasons to keep Snow White alive
B) NO ONE HAS POSTED A CASE AGAINST SUAVE

Vote: xRECKONERx

This is what you have expressed as scummy against Suave:

1) A portion of this post:

Suave's #104 is scummy as all get out, but I still don't like the Sanjay vibe a lot more than I dislike Suave using RVS-logic to explain a vote on Sanjay when we have obviously moved past the RVS. I also don't like his #110, where he says there's nothing to gather from the first few pages. If there's nothing to gather, or analyze, explain how I got my above paragraphs? And let's not even mention Suave's #129 where he openly admits to voting SW for regurgitated reasoning... right after he had just said he didn't see anything from what had happened so far literally 19 posts before.

This was a the basis of a scummy read for Suave. I agree the late random vote was a little off, but the latter too points are quite bad. The first one is making a rather big leap from "I disagree with Suave's assessment" to "Suave is scummy" and the latter is rather a strawman if you look at the original post.

2) If you misread the redirector role, Suave look scummy.

I really have no idea why Suave hasn't just caved in and confessed against this absolutely blistering line of attack.

3) It's either Snow White or Suave and you don't want to lynch Snow White

What a terrible justification for a lynch.

xRECKONERx, you are either being very lazy, there is stuff about Suave you haven't shown us, or you are being opportunistic.

[Sanjay]

@Sanjay: I meant at this point right now, I see Sanjay and Snow White as the only two viable options (other than no lynch, which we DO NOT WANT). For calling me opportunistic, I think your quick vote on me is opportunistic, especially since your "case" against me is that I haven't posted a strong "case" on Suave. It's circular reasoning. Do you see anyone else as a better lynch option?

Do you have a strong case against Mr Suave? Do you have ANY case against Suave? Surely you must if he is such a viable option.

Just tell me why you were voting for Suave, Reck. That's all you need to do. Did I miss where you did this?

I fail to see how this is circular reasoning. You were using the approaching deadline to advocate for a lousy lynch so I voted for you. As far as I can see, you decided not to ignore Max's description of how the redirector ability works so you are voting for Suave.

[Sanjay]

I'm not really sure about Snow White being the SK. I'm still kind of nursing my pet theory that she's a traitor what with her being so unwilling to vote BloodCovenent (for what it is worth, she did say she believed in two cops before BC claimed, so I guess it's not

as

good of a case). But if you are supposing she isn't because SW bussed BC, you are thinking of some other Snow White. I believe she ended the day with her vote on Deuxieme Octopus or something weird like that.

I definitely agree that a wickedjestr kill would benefit Snow White given the positions wickedjestr had, but I think, almightybob, that you are overstating how good this evidence is. wickedjestr had a whole bunch of opinions and suspicions, and besides that he struck me as a relatively good scumhunter, an active player, and I don't remember too many people expressing strong suspicion of him. All that makes him a good target to a whole lot of people, which makes wickedjestr's death suggest Snow White is the SK less to me.

She definitely could be the SK. I'm somewhat less inclined to think she's a cop since post 909. She probably isn't anything but the SK or the traitor, since I doubt BC would claim cop after his scumbuddy just did. So if SW is scum, she is either the traitor or the SK. If she's the traitor, it's better to save her for tomorrow; if she's the SK, she's the better lynch.

But I'd rather just lynch Sposh. There is still the chance that SW is the cop, and I'd just as well wait until we get a result from her, if only because that'll be more interesting. And I really don't see how Sposh is town.

Even if town-Sposh somehow got a fake negative on Mufasa (I can't see how that would happen), Sposh's reaction to Mufasa claiming vigilante is totally off. Why claim to confirm that there is an SK (something, given Wickedjestr's fate, we don't even need to have confirmed) but not claim when Mufasa claimed vig? It doesn't make any sense.

Vote: Sposh

I think Sposh could very well be the SK too, and he is more definitely scum than Snow White.

To believe Snow White is town, you have to believe she is a cop who somehow forgot how her role works.

To believe Sposh is town, you have to believe that up is down and the sky is pink.

[Sanjay]

I guess I'm just generally objecting to the leap from "If Snow White is the SK she would probably kill wickedjestr" to "Since wickedjestr was killed, Snow White is probably the SK".

[Sanjay]

Nope, elvis was already voting Sposh. If my count's correct, he's at L-1.

[Sanjay]

Uh oh Max didn't post the lynch scene yet Sposh must be unlynchable.

[Sanjay]

Well, I suppose in the extremely unlikely happenstance that Snow White is town and was completely right all along that there were two cops, we ought to hear her night results, but I really see no reason why anyone else should be the lynch today.

Vote: Snow White

[Sanjay]

The Sposh situation is extremely weird.

Even though he said he actually checked Mr. Suave and it was all just a big mistake, I don't know if this wasn't just a lie to save his own neck.

On day one he made this post:

So I managed to skim it all (sorry, just returned from the beach)...

Basically, I think the first lynch should probably be either Mufasa or BloodCovenent. Both have been very scummy, but I don't think I can see them being on the same team! One's role flip will probably be very indicative of the other's alignment.

Vote: BloodCovenent

It seems like a player who thought that and saw BC flip mafia would have Mufasa as an obvious investigation. And the next day, before the vig claim, Sposh said this:

I don't think it's Mufasa for some reason so I'm going to

Vote: FaerieLord

for being the last one to hammer on BC! Waiting till the last possible second, tsk tsk!

Seems awfully like a breadcrumb.

On the other hand:

A) His reaction to the Mufasa vig claim seemed off if he had actually investigated Mufasa.
B) I don't understand how Mufasa could be scum given the night one results.

[Sanjay]

Whoops I accidentally analyzed the wrong game and voted based on that analysis.

My bad.

[Sanjay]

Nah, I was pointing out how implausible whoot's "whoops posted it the wrong thread my bad" is.

I don't know if it is really that important to expose just whose alt it is, but it is obviously someone in this game's alt, and apparently they want to vote Snow White.

[Sanjay]

Yeah, I agree. Sposh made himself an easy lynch and while the mafia theoretically could have stayed off and trusted the town to carry him to the gallows, not jumping on easy mislynches isn't really the hallmark of scum.

[Sanjay]

I was reading over almightybob to try to figure out who he investigated night one and I think this is a deadend.

If you look at this post it seems to me like almightybob is dropping a DeathNote guilty breadcrumb, which is all well and good if not for three reasons:

1. almightybob's sanity was not confirmed.
2. DeathNote was town (that's the big one)
3. It seems like a bad strategy to predict guilties if you were the cop. And unless almightybob predicted correctly, I would be surprised if he hadn't predicted correctly.

Maybe given point 1 it's not even worth searching for almightybob breadcrumbs.

Thoughts?

[Sanjay]

For the same reasons as before?

[Sanjay]

It's nice to have the data here, though I am seriously headscratching that you don't really seem as interested in the people off the BC wagon (me, Mufasa, dramonic, MrSuave) as the people that jumped on it late.

Is there a reason why you think being on the wagon but late is more suspicious than being off the wagon?

As for the power roles of the last two mafia, I think your assessment of the situation is probably off. If you had a roleblocker and a redirector, wouldn't the better choice be to redirect investigations instead of roleblock them? You could basically turn the cop paranoid or naive. That gives away less information and more misinformation.

I think what more likely is that Snow White was roleblocked by the serial killer. Which is good, because A) the town is quite likely out of powerroles to block now anyway and B) it means there is the potential for cross-killing.

What do you think about this possibility? Had you thought about it before this post?

[Sanjay]

MrSuave, what differences do you see exactly between dramonic's play as town and his play here? I've played with him as town and no differences really jump out at me.

[Sanjay]

FaerieLord, is there a reason why you weren't on the Snow White wagon? You seemed quite ready to lynch Snow White the day before, and AlmightyBob flipping cop certainly shouldn't have deterred you.

[Sanjay]

Were you aware of the wagon and waiting to vote?

[Sanjay]

Not a mason.

I don't think there's any possible way for Mufasa to be scum, but seriously, what the heck, Mufasa? Why not just say you targeted Starbuck?

[Sanjay]

I abducted it. I'd like everyone to answer the following:

Are you in a masonry?

People should answer this.

[Sanjay]

FaerieLord, why didn't you answer the mason question?

manho, how did you forget?

[Sanjay]

I really have to reread the thread and I've been dragging my feet. Sorry, y'all.

I'll post something within 24 hours. Scouts honor.

[Sanjay]

I really have to reread the thread and I've been dragging my feet. Sorry, y'all.

I'll post something within 24 hours. Scouts honor.

I don't think I'm going to pull through with this 24 hour promise. But it'll be tonight, before I go to bed.

I was never actually a scout so I'm not too torn about going back on this scouts honor thing.

[Sanjay]

Here are questions. Answer please.

dramonic

:

1) What about BC's cop claim made you more inclined to trust him than Snow White?

Santos

:

1) You said here that you were worried that both Snow White and BC might be cops, but then two posts later you say that you are down to vote BC. What happened here?

2) What was your rationale for voting Mufasa here?

3) What the heck happened here? I'm inclined to believe that scum wouldn't forget their own godfather was lynched and not a cop, but the tiniest part of me thinks that the mistake was too ridiculous to be believed.

4) What's up with your zwet FoS today? Isn't that role confirmed town?

FaerieLord

:

1) When first voting for Snow White, you say this about the vote:

I don't think she's the scummiest to be honest, but she's scummy and deadline is approaching and since we should be lynching, she's the more solid choice from the three.

Then Snow White claims cop. Rather than switch to one of your other scum leads, you keep focusing on Snow White. Why not just switch to your other scum leads?

And for clarification, who were the other two of the three you were talking about here?

2) Why did you choose Santos for your placeholder vote today?

MrSuave

:

1) Talk to me about this vote. What was your thinking behind it?

manho

:

1) On day 2, you posted this:

SW is still the scum up to page 13 and i'm wondering why he had not been lynched yet before page 13. saber was scumhunting and was pro-town, but he was scumhunting and seemed pro-town in my last game with him where he turned out SK. sanjay is pro-town. gut-feeling for the followings: mufasa-town, xreckonerx-scum, AlmightyBob-scum, dram-scum, mrsuave-town. neutral for the remainings.

Have your reads on these people (besides the flips) changed? Do you still have a town read on me, a scum read on dramonic and a town read on MrSuave? If your reads have changed, why?

EtherealCookie

:

1) You've kept a pretty low profile this game. What's up with that?

2) In this post, you state that you would have definitely unvoted Sposh had you been there. Why? Mufasa to MrSuave is not a simple typo.

3) Do you think zwet could possibly be scum? Why vote for him?

[Sanjay]

Vote: manho

[Sanjay]

L-2 I believe.

[Sanjay]

What is the basis for your scum read on FaerieLord, manho?

[Sanjay]

I don't understand the bandwagon either.

Here are my reason for voting manho:

1. I wanted him to post.
2. I thought his voting analysis based vote was suspicious if he had a neutral read on FL and a scum read on dramonic. Here's why:

cop-SW was roleblocked and vig-mufasa was redirected, so our last 2 scums are roleblocker and redirector, right?

let's analyse the vote count: (i'll assume for all mislynch there exist a scum in the wagon)

D1: although BC was the lynch, SW was nearly lynched:

Vote Count - 11!

9 Votes:

Snow White

(

My Milked Eek, saberwolf, AlmightyBob

, Deuxieme Octopus,

Mufasa

,

Starbuck

, Faerie Lord,

Wickedestjr

, dramonic)

scums are in {manho (replaced DO), FL, dramonic}

End Of Day Has Been Reached

10 Votes

BloodCovenent

- 10 (EtherealCookie,

xRECKONERx

,

Sposh, saberwolf, starbuck, wickedestjr

, DeuxiemeOctopus, Santos,

almightybob

, FaerieLord)

this is not a mislynch but i can see scum jump into it late when the lynch is inevitable. also, i don't believe scum-cookie will stay on the godfather wagon for the whole day 1.
scums are in {manho (replaced DO), Santos, FL}

8 Votes:

Sposh

(EtherealCookie,

saberwolf

,

xRECKONERx

, Sanjay,

AlmightyBob

,

mufasa

,

elvis_knits

, FaerieLord)

scums are in {cookie, sanjay, FL}

Vote Count:

Snow White

: (

Snow White

, Sanjay, MrSuave,

Mufasa

,

xRECKONERx

, Santos) + After hammer (dramonic)

scums are in {Sanjay, MrSuave, Santos, dramonic}

as i know i'm not the scum, FL is the scum or (dramonic, santos, (cookie/sanjay) are all scum).

vote: FL

note that the conclusion is true if my assumation is true.

other analysis coming when i have time.

If you look at the conclusion he reaches, that it's either FL or the set (dramonic, santos, (cookie/sanjay)), then voting FL is

somewhat

reasonable. But the path to that conclusion is kind of screwy, using the BC wagon as an effective mislynch wagon. Besides, there are a lot of scum in town right now, and I don't understand rejecting the (dramonic, santos, (cookie/sanjay)) hypothesis so easily.

I can see this if he had a scum read on FL previously, but I don't see why he is passing up his dramonic scum read.

As for what everyone else is doing on the wagon I'm not sure.

Santos?

[Sanjay]

actually, i found FL being pro-town recently. my reason for voting him is not really about his scumminess, but his vote.

so,

unvote, vote:dramonic

. he is really scummy.

Yeah, that's kind of why I'm voting for you, manho.

Why not vote dramonic before?

[Sanjay]

FL, did you miss my question about why you decided to use Santos as a placeholder vote?

[Sanjay]

You aren't allowed to unvote in this game, zwet.

[Sanjay]

What.

[Sanjay]

Voting for obv. town for reasons isn't better than voting for possible scum on gut, Santos.

[Sanjay]

Mr. Suave, you still undecided about manho?

[Sanjay]

Yeah, where is that guy?

Vote: FaerieLord

[Sanjay]

Choo choo bandwagon's calling.

[Sanjay]

It's a hard-knock life.

[Sanjay]

Not quite, dramonic

Max: I voted FaerieLord in post 1152

[Sanjay]

Maybe the power of choo choo was a little too compelling.

[Sanjay]

Yeah, I pretty much agree with that.

[Sanjay]

Well, we don't have to mislynch.

Vote: dramonic

[Sanjay]

The timing of his manho vote, mainly.

[Sanjay]

Vote: MrSuave

AKA Unvote

MrSuave, could you link to the game in question and tell me what similarities you see?

[Sanjay]

MrSuave, have you played any games or are you familiar with any games with dram as town? If so, what do you think the differences are?

[Sanjay]

The only games we've played together that I recall are this one and Lovers.

So yes, but you very well can't take my word on that.

[Sanjay]

dram, you want to talk to me about why you voted manho when you did?

[Sanjay]

Wait a second, dram, when did you think we had played together with me as town?

[Sanjay]

Oh, I just thought of something:

After Sposh was lynched, I wasn't quite sure whether he had actually investigated Mufasa and just said he investigated MrSuave to try and save himself or whether he had actually investigated MrSuave. I couldn't figure out how Mufasa could be NOT the vigilante what with the second night kill, but it still seemed really weird that Sposh would make that mistake. But with zwet flipping Vigilante, it seems that, though hard to believe, Sposh actually just mixed up MrSuave and Mufasa.

This is good for us, because now we know that MrSuave is not the SK.

Also, somewhat less sure, I don't think manho is the SK. manho claimed here to have been absent from the thread for day 2 and 3, and we still had twilight kills both those days. He could have been lying about that, but I'm inclined to believe he was not, especially since he was totally gone from the site during that period.

I think this also makes it less likely that manho is mafia. Snow White was roleblocked, and while that roleblock

could

have come from the serial killer, with FaerieLord flipping roleblocker, it seems pretty plausible that FaerieLord roleblocked her. Check the front page. The mafia can't kill and use their role, so if FaerieLord roleblocked Snow White night 2, someone else would have had to submit the kill. If manho wasn't here, it couldn't have been him.

That isn't 100% obviously, since the roleblock on Snow White

could

have come from the SK, but it seems weird for there to be two roleblockers in the game. Mmaybe I'm wrong about that. We had two cops, after all. Still, I don't think manho is scum.

From my perspective, the SK is definitely in the very small set

{EtherealCookie, dramonic}

. If you aren't me or any of those peeps, it is in the set

{EtherealCookie, dramonic, Sanjay}

. Nice.

----

Here's where I am on everyone:

manho

: I don't think he's the SK. I don't think he's mafia. It seems like he'd have to be faking VLA in like three games to be scum. Also a lot of reason I was voting for him yesterday had to do with him me thinking he was protecting scumbuddy dramonic and I know that that was wrong.

MrSuave

: Almost definitely not the SK. Wasn't on the BC lynch or the FL lynch. My gut read is townish though, but could still theoretically be mafia.

dramonic

: I don't agree with MrSuave about voting for dram for meta reasons, but he seems likely scum. I don't like his manho vote. It just seems off. While manho's reasons for voting dram aren't bulletproof, I don't understand what was scummy about them. manho's vote didn't come out of nowhere. He claimed a scum read on dramonic for a while. I really don't understand why this merited a manho vote.

Also, if the manho vote was because of manho's case on dramonic, I really don't see why it didn't happen until after the FaerieLord wagon started. It really seems like he was trying to get another wagon going to take steam out of the FL wagon.

EtherealCookie

: I'm not really sure about Cookie. He hasn't posted much so he's been pretty hard to read. If dramonic is Mafia, I think Cookie is the SK. Otherwise, I don't know.

[Sanjay]

Vote: dramonic

[Sanjay]

dramonic, you still haven't explained what exactly is so scummy about manho's suspicion of you.

[Sanjay]

manho, how does the decision to hammer FaerieLord yesterday differ from the decision to hammer dramonic today?

[Sanjay]

I can't believe the town messed that one up.

I thought killing me would be toast for you, Cookie.

[Sanjay]

Was Cookie bulletproof?

[Sanjay]

Yeah, I came into my last day sure dramonic was the SK, but within about five posts I realized I was wrong.

[Sanjay]

Sanjay played a solid game, I had him down as Town right up until his death. In my opinion, he was man of the match, and it seemed like very bad luck that he lost this.

Oh, and this made me feel great.

We were pretty lazy with out kills this game. I think I probably should have left around more active scumhunters so I wasn't the only one scumhunting the last three days.